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story category AT&T Thinks Network Neutrality Fight Is Over
Unfortunately for them, the neutrality circus was just napping...
04:09PM Thursday Nov 13 2008 by Karl Bode
tags: competition · business · Op/Ed · net-neutrality
Post election with a new FCC boss looming, we're starting to see the network neutrality debate rekindled. It has been confirmed that Congress will most definitely pursue network neutrality legislation next year. Carriers obviously would prefer that the government enforce neutrality on a case by case basis, while many worry that government lacks the competence to draft useful laws. AT&T's policy guru James Cicconi takes the opportunity to claim to PC World that there's a "consensus" that's been formed concerning network neutrality:
"After a heated debate for a couple of years, there's been a consensus forming around net neutrality, with many broadband providers now acknowledging that customers want an open Internet and many net neutrality advocates acknowledging that network providers need to manage their networks for the good of customers, he said. "There's a lot of people who now believe that companies like AT&T are not plotting to overthrow the open Internet concept," Cicconi said.
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Perhaps. There's others who think that AT&T's plan to cap users is a pre-emptive, anti-competitive shot at Internet video providers dressed up as a bogus fix for non-existent capacity strain. When such massive companies want to not only control and ration the bandwidth but also serve you content in an uncompetitive market, the chances are fairly good that at some point they'll behave badly.

While carriers would like you to believe the recent Comcast throttling crackdown highlights how neutrality infractions can be handled on a case by case basis, it's important to remember a few things. The FCC's "sanction" of Comcast created no new rules, resulted in no fine, didn't change the behavior of other ISPs who employ the same exact tactics, and may not even hold up under Comcast legal assault. That's not much of a deterrent for anti-competitive behavior.

That said, it's not clear that Congress is technically savvy enough to craft neutrality laws that would effectively prevent ISP skulduggery. It's more than likely that Congress's best effort would either be completely useless (think Can Spam Act), or actually harm ISPs' ability to do such things as ensure VoIP traffic prioritization.

But Cicconi's suggestion that there's been any consensus reached in the debate is a fairly large stretch. Things quieted down briefly over the last year (if you consider the Comcast throttling debate quiet), but only because no new laws were being proposed. A new Congressional push for neutrality laws will certainly revamp the obnoxious PR battle waged by both sides, who apparently believe the public isn't bright enough to understand the issue without the use of stick figures, dancing men in green tights, cartoons and/or flying saucers.

Related:
  1. Get Your Network Neutrality Popcorn Ready
  2. Google, You're a Wireless Tease
  3. So Much For The Talk of Open Wireless Networks
  4. Remember How The Net Neutrality Fight Began
  5. FCC's Martin: No Net Neutrality Laws Needed
  6. Scott Cleland: Google Using 21x The Bandwidth They Pay For
  7. The Wall Street Journal's Google Hatchet Job
  8. Verizon's Open Development Initiative? So Far It's A Joke
Forums » AT&T Thinks Network Neutrality Fight Is Over
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KrK
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I agree with the idea of Network Neutrality in general....

... however I worry that the Government's attempt to "enforce" it will actually be controlled by lobbyists and that once a "rule" or "law" is in effect it will actually provide great wiggle-room for Neutrality to NOT be enforceable.... In other words, this is a serious issue, and I don't think Congress can touch it without screwing it up.

I surely hope I'm wrong.... :/
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LegoPower77
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Re: I agree with the idea of Network Neutrality in general....

And there's the proverbial fly in the ointment. Politicians and bureaucrats act in their own self interest just like any corporate CEO, it's just the incentives are different. Government oversight and planning boards are open to corruption and rent-seeking just as much as corporate boardrooms (I would say even more).

It's like an economics professor I had used to say and I think applies here mutatis mutandis: if you want to get money out of politics, you have to get politics out of money.

MacThrasher
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said by KrK See Profile :

In other words, this is a serious issue, and I don't think Congress can touch it without screwing it up.
That is my fear too. I find this to be more of a "profit" capacity rather than "bandwidth" capacity. The just want to be content providers as well as ISP's. But, when in Rome...
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Congress to consider a net neutrality law in January

Karl speaks and Congress acts:
»AT&T Thinks Network Neutrality Fight Is Over
A new Congressional push for neutrality laws will certainly revamp the obnoxious PR battle waged by both sides
And with that as a lead-in, the congresscritter from N.Dakota has a bill he wants to introduce in January:

»tech.yahoo.com/news/nm/20081113/···utrality
Sen. Byron Dorgan, a North Dakota Democrat, believes a law is essential to prevent telephone and cable companies from discriminating against Internet content, even though regulators have taken actions to enforce free Web principles, a top Dorgan aide said on Thursday.

"We feel that legislation is definitely necessary," said Frannie Wellings, telecom counsel to Dorgan, speaking at a University of Nebraska law school event on changes in telecom law after the election of Democrat Barack Obama.

Dorgan has been influential on the issue, and will be among the highest ranking Democrats on the Senate's Commerce Committee when it reconvenes in January.

The net neutrality fight pits Internet service providers (ISPs) like AT&T against content companies like Google Inc and Microsoft Corp.

The ISPs, which also include Verizon Communications Inc. and cable company Comcast Corp, say they need to manage the ever-growing traffic on their networks without government interference.

Content companies say the ISPs hold too power much to block or slow down traffic requiring more bandwidth, such as movie downloads, or certain content altogether.

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edit:
November 14th, @06:11AM

Net neutrality shouldn't mean ISP's cant offer exclusive pipes

I think ISP's should be able to offer faster exclusive pipes to priority customers as long as they can show that those customers data does not slow down the current standard pipe offered to all now.

For example, suppose I was an ISP and I offer a 50GB pipe between many providers and 1000's of customers, then Google says, I will pay you 1 billion for 5 years to give me an exclusive 10GB pipe. Google is not reducing the quality of their connections, their asking for a private faster pipe that would, separately, be faster.

I think that while Net Neutrality is being addressed it should also be added that carriers would have a right to offer faster connections as long as they are shown not to comprimise the speed of current offerings over the net.

sivran
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Re: Net neutrality shouldn't mean ISP's cant offer exclusive pip

Neutrality isn't about ISPs offering faster or even exclusive pipes to end users (be they consumers or companies).

It's about shenanigans and double-dipping. Imagine if Comcast said to Blizzard, "you must pay us if you want to be able to connect to us." Now, Blizzard's ISP is AT&T. They're already paying AT&T. Comcast has millions of users paying them, millions who would be quite angry if Blizzard rightfully refused to pay, and Comcast cut them off. Unfortunately for Comcast users, they'd have no idea what Comcast had done (well, for a while, anyway). Now this is a bit extreme, and Comcast would have to deal with many angry customers. But what if ALL the big ISPs did this? Blizzard would have no choice but to pay up. Now imagine this happening to a smaller company, one that couldn't afford to pay two, three, four times for internet access.

That is what net neutrality seeks to prevent.
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KrK
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Not Capacity issue... Unless you mean profit capacity....

"There's others who think that AT&T's plan to cap users is a pre-emptive, anti-competitive shot at Internet video providers dressed up as a bogus fix for non-existent capacity strain."

Isn't that the truth. Notice the most restrictive of caps on the lowest tiers. It's definitely not about capacity strain. It's about relieving the strain of having competitors services available via the Net, when at&t wants consumers to "choose" them.
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neko
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Re: Not Capacity issue... Unless you mean profit capacity....

said by KrK See Profile :

"There's others who think that AT&T's plan to cap users is a pre-emptive, anti-competitive shot at Internet video providers dressed up as a bogus fix for non-existent capacity strain."

Isn't that the truth. Notice the most restrictive of caps on the lowest tiers. It's definitely not about capacity strain. It's about relieving the strain of having competitors services available via the Net, when at&t wants consumers to "choose" them.
Hey, you should see things up north, buddy; we have Bell Canada throttling it's own customers, the customers of their wholesalers & to 'cap' it all, they are going to implement capped Internet on it's wholesalers too: To the tune of 40-60GB per month, IIRC.

They use DPI boxes to peek into the content of your packets. I've heard a few people mention if you try running a service on non standard ports, such as SSH for example, it gets throttled too: They can't look into encrypted streams, so they throttle them too!

Bell Canada has ambitions of running an online movie service, funny how it all came to pass after they started this throttling & bandwidth apocalypse nonsense.

It's not just Bell Canada, however. It's just about every major ISP up here in the great white north - Competition between ISP's is supposed to be here, now, in Canada; & we have choices - Well it's either throttled capped service from:

•Cogeco cable versus Bell DSL
•Videotron Cable versus Bell DSL
•Rogers cable versus Bell DSL


There are some other services, such as wireless in a few places, or perhaps you could go for fapped/capped SAT Internet.

You hit the nail right on the head, buddy. They want control of the Internet as a delivery medium for their services - Not guys like Apple, Microsoft, Google, legal torrent movie sites.

Perhaps Bell don't even like their sterling competitors; like Teksavvy, for example:





Gold rated right here on DSLR: »
User reviews - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.

KrK
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Re: Not Capacity issue... Unless you mean profit capacity....

Yeah. They want to be ISP's *AND* Content providers, and they want that content to be profitable. They don't want you using competitors services instead of theirs... or if you do, they want to be able to charge extra on top of it so they can profit off of everyone else's content too.

The sad reality is that the extra charges would cause consumers to begin avoiding the competition, and thus, crippling or forcing the competition out of business... if you think about it, the ability to "surf" the 'Net and just read would be severely impacted too.

It would surely screw up the entire internet as we know it.
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mrvid

join:2007-06-19
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not true competitors, chance companies that took a shot ..

My feelings on this, strictly what I feel; voip, iptv providers that don't pay anything to the ISP's for passage over the net are not really competitors, they are providers of like services that offer it as long as it is financially feasable to offer it. A true competitor does not use the competition's network and give them nothing for it, if I understand the terms going on correctly.

en102
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Re: not true competitors, chance companies that took a shot ..

What are you talking about...
VoIP/IPTV/Netflix etc. ALL have to have some form of connection to the Internet so that people can actually use it.
The Internet connection is not intended to be a 'we own the last mile, therefore pay us toll fees' for access.
Customers pay for the use - ISPs are making profit off of that. ISPs want more profit (why not) and would like to make the Internet a walled garden where information flow is
a) Controlled (well they do have to manage the network)
b) Paid for (duh) - problem is that it ISPs want payment from both customers (who use the Internet) and content providers. If there were no content providers, there would be no customers.
c) Make money off of every piece (it is a capital society) - resell your point-click data, data mining, demographics, NebuAd... where does it end.
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ieolus
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The problem with that view is that the last mile into people's homes is dominated by 1 or (if lucky) 2 to 3 "service providers".

Do you not see a problem with the service provider also providing (and charging for) the content, when there are probably better content providers out there on the 'net?
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Ahrenl

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edit:
November 14th, @01:47PM

Last mile is a government controlled oligopoly. You can't have competition there without blackening the sky with overhead cables, or constantly digging up all our roads.

However you're getting at the root problem which provides the obvious answer. Content/Service providers NEED to be separate from network owners. Like it used to be. It's a quick and dirty fix where the network owners would be required spinoffs of the service providers. Shares issued of both to all shareholders, no one is getting robbed, no injustice done. Maybe the senior managers take a pay cut because of empire shrinkage (which is why this doesn't happen) but, too bad so sad.
wispalord

join:2007-09-20
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Re: Not Capacity issue... Unless you mean profit capacity....

if they profit from someone elses work, aint this in a way copyright infringement, be like me buying blank dvds and selling movies on ebay? It's not leagle, or ethical.
AVonGauss

join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL

My Opinion...

I don't think the network neutrality debate has really begun in earnest... I don't think the driving force will be "evil" ISPs as much as it will be that the mainstream realizes the importance of the communications medium.

Machinimist
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Small Online Businesses Need Network Neutrality

I'm a Machinima Producer, I make videos using video games and stream them off of my partner's website. If more of these major ISP's start/continue to discourage online video content I'm afraid I'll have to stop my own business since there will be few to no customers left So I would really like to see something done favorably for Network Neutrality. That said I think it will get butchered if this goes through congress.
openbox9

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Re: Small Online Businesses Need Network Neutrality

Network neutrality is about not discriminating against certain protocols, not about capping your bandwidth or data transfers. I think you'll be disappointed if any network neutrality legislation is proposed.

morbo
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Re: Small Online Businesses Need Network Neutrality

it's actually both. because if you control one, you essentially control the other.

it is interesting to see the talking points against network neutrality begin to make the distinction here. to say that capping is not about network neutrality is to make a strong case in the interest of cableco and telco and against consumers and businesses not providing dumb pipe.
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Re: Small Online Businesses Need Network Neutrality

said by morbo See Profile :

it's actually both. because if you control one, you essentially control the other.
Not really. Net neutrality discussions revolve around improper filtering and/or prioritization of traffic. Capping is about managing quantity.
said by morbo See Profile :

to say that capping is not about network neutrality is to make a strong case in the interest of cableco and telco and against consumers and businesses not providing dumb pipe.
Why is capping/metering a strong case against a "dumb pipe"? ISPs can remain a "dumb pipe" and still cap/meter service while maintaining protocol/traffic neutrality.

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said by openbox9 See Profile :

Network neutrality is about not discriminating against certain protocols, not about capping your bandwidth or data transfers. I think you'll be disappointed if any network neutrality legislation is proposed.
On a network level, technically, I agree with you. But on a business principles level, when a broadband provider slaps on a 5 GB cap but is in the IP TV business itself, then the effect is the same.
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Ahrenl

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Re: Small Online Businesses Need Network Neutrality

That's the distinction. If the cable programming counted towards your cap then it would be fine. (In that it wouldn't be partial) Otherwise caps really are just limiting non-revenue generating content over revenue generating content. Which is the crux.
openbox9

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Re: Small Online Businesses Need Network Neutrality

said by Ahrenl See Profile :

If the cable programming counted towards your cap then it would be fine.
This I will agree with if you're discussing IPTV competing for the same bandwidth with general Internet traffic.

KrK
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edit:
November 13th, @05:28PM

Imagine if at&t...

Announced that due to "limited wireless network capacity", and "phone hogs" that they would start imposing "Caps" on calling phones that were outside the at&t customer base, and on calls coming in from a non-at&t wireless phone. IE call the wrong people and pay extra usage charges--- above and beyond your normal monthly contract and rates.

I think Congress et al would slap that down but quick.
Caps on internet connections are really little different.

And maybe, because there at least still a few wireless companies not owned by at&t, they couldn't get away with it... but... if there was just 3 or maybe even 2 to choose from.... whos to say the wouldn't do this?
openbox9

join:2004-01-26
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Re: Imagine if at&t...

AT&T already has usage caps on their wireless plans. Their plans are capped at minutes per month with excess charges applied for additional minutes used. What am I missing?

KrK
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Re: Imagine if at&t...

said by openbox9 See Profile :

AT&T already has usage caps on their wireless plans. Their plans are capped at minutes per month with excess charges applied for additional minutes used. What am I missing?
Yeah, I guess what I meant was what if they started "penalizing" you for calling non-at&t customers, IE, a competitor's subscriber, with extra overage charges ($1 per minute, etc) not so much a minute cap but a cap on calling outside their network.
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openbox9

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Re: Imagine if at&t...

Like roaming charges?

funchords
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said by KrK See Profile :

Announced that due to "limited wireless network capacity", and "phone hogs" that they would start imposing "Caps" on calling phones that were outside the at&t customer base, and on calls coming in from a non-at&t wireless phone. IE call the wrong people and pay extra usage charges--- above and beyond your normal monthly contract and rates.
Anybody remember this from the old dial-up days when the local phone company would complain that the modem users were tying up all the trunk lines?
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KrK
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Re: Imagine if at&t...

said by funchords See Profile :

Anybody remember this from the old dial-up days when the local phone company would complain that the modem users were tying up all the trunk lines?
Sure do. They tried to use this as justification for getting "business rate" tarriffs onto modem usage. It largely failed, however....
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Re: Imagine if at&t...

said by KrK See Profile :

said by funchords See Profile :

Anybody remember this from the old dial-up days when the local phone company would complain that the modem users were tying up all the trunk lines?
Sure do. They tried to use this as justification for getting "business rate" tarriffs onto modem usage. It largely failed, however....
I feel soooooooooo old.
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Core0000
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Re: Imagine if at&t...

Whether you feel old or not, glad you remember this. Give's an idea as to what these Caps are all about etc.
jester121

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Isn't that kind of the point behind free mobile-to-mobile minutes and family talk plans? Call any AT&T customer without using your minutes.

I think all the major carriers have some offering like this.

KrK
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Re: Imagine if at&t...

said by jester121 See Profile :

Isn't that kind of the point behind free mobile-to-mobile minutes and family talk plans? Call any AT&T customer without using your minutes.

I think all the major carriers have some offering like this.
Yep, but it's more like an incentive program then a penalty.

The idea I was thinking of was along the line of "capping" calls to a competitors subscriber--- be it wireless, VOIP, or landline.
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d_l
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Re: Imagine if at&t...

I suppose there is no reason that AT&T can't institute something like this on their broadband after they install their caps, e.g. visit our blue room or watch ESPN360 sports on your broadband and the bandwidth doesn't count against your caps.

funchords
Robb Topolski
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Re: Imagine if at&t...

I hope you don't think that's a great idea...

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edit:
November 13th, @09:08PM

Network Neutrality Is bad

I feel like I'm going to beat a dead horse but here is why network neutrality is bad. First this was planned long ago to kill out what we now know as the internet and for people who may have forgot "Information Operations Roadmap" »www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSA···dmap.pdf

Then you have to look at internet clogging and how they keep saying video is what is clogging up the tubes but wait a minute how could that be when most videos like youtube is on its own server?

I can tell you what secret you all been missing they do not want us to have free speech and webpages like youtube we can expose who they are and the crap they pull.

I think people forget how they wanted to charge you for each email you send with credit stamps or even wanted to start over so they could track all that you do »web.archive.org/web/200704170439···,00.html

The system will be controlled in some form but the real question is will you still drink the kool-aid? But never forget many have wanted to snoop »news.cnet.com/Congress%20may%20c···as.email
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Re: Network Neutrality Is bad

You might want to re-read the definition of Network Neutrality.

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edit:
November 14th, @12:15AM

Re: Network Neutrality Is bad

said by pixfoo :

You might want to re-read the definition of Network Neutrality.
I know what it means but it is also a scam and why do you think isps have caps? or illegal block traffic?

This is sort of a scam that they hold with their companies and can do what they want so any definition to me is pointless.

All it really is a few words to make you feel all warm and fuzzy but notice how when you dont give in you get put under a cap. They will have control in some form or another so as I said network neutrality is a scam.
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sivran
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Re: Network Neutrality Is bad

So... you want a walled-garden internet, where anyone outside your ISP's network has to pay your ISP (not their ISP, yours) to reach you (and be reached by you, which you'll also pay extra for).

There is a company that tried that, actually. It was called America Online. Their model failed, imploding spectacularly with the arrival of cheap dial-up, and ultimately cheap broadband. Now they scrape by, attempting to compete with Google.

If you still want that, you could see if AOL still sells dial-up in your area, and switch to them. Then use only their software and never leave its boundaries, nor click any button that might lead outside the warm and fuzzy AOL server farm in Virginia.

As for me, no thanks. I'll continue supporting neutrality.
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Re: Network Neutrality Is bad

I never said I don't support it sivran but what I said was that it is a scam and you can argue semantics all day long but with network neutrality you will pay the price by having caps and other crap the isp will force on you so I guess if I'm going to blunt it is a win win for isp's anyway you go.
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cpsycho

join:2008-06-03
Orangeville, ON

AT&T Illusions of grandure

AT&T is only spouting what they want to hear themselfs. The majority of the people are against these ISP's actions. regardless of what they may think.

timjamz

join:2007-03-12
Hawthorne, FL

It's a tragedy, but...

apparently believe the public isn't bright enough
It's a tragedy, but I honestly think the public is bright enough, but isn't informed enough to know they need to care. Chalk one up for "the PR on both sides."
mrvid

join:2007-06-19
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edit:
November 14th, @05:32AM

Capping is not non-neutrality cause it is the same for all..

My thoughts on all of this; If i owned an ISP (which I don't) and I wanted to raise my rates $20/mo; as long as there is competition, people shouldn't be saying its unfair. If it were my system, and I want to charge more for its use and this is how I want to charge, it's my business.

We are so used to getting everything at 1 flat rate now but thats not a guarantee, its not written in stone, and a reason to cap doesn't have to be all about capacity; it could be for any reason.

Net neutrality, as far as I understand, is about treating all traffic over the net fairly, not giving greater priority to one over the other. What, how or the terms for which an ISP charges for their services, as long as there is competition, is their business.

Here is what I do think though; if ISP's are going to do this, then there should be some way that doesn't cost more for people to be able to tell what their usage is at any one given time.

ieolus
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Re: Capping is not non-neutrality cause it is the same for all..

You are right, provided that there is competition. However, competition doesn't mean that there is one other possible provider... there needs to be tens of providers that can give internet access to anyone before your theory holds.
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·tw telecom
·ygnitionnet

The problem with network neutrality is that it gives huge amounts of power to the ISP's. And we already know from experience that AT&T and Verizon are famous for abusing their power. Please remember that the telecom act of 1996 made the telcos the maintainer of dumb pipes and fiber would be in 90% of US homes by 2006 (and they were given BILLIONS in your tax dollars to make this happen.)

Here we are 12 years later arguing if the telcos should be allowed to regulate the content of the internet!!!

Kids in college don't even understand that an ISP and a telco use to be two seperate entities.

Giving the telcos and cable companies the legal power (they already have the technological power) to discriminate who they connect to would be catestrophic in my opinion. If network neutrality is passed, this is what the internet will look like: »www.attblueroom.com/home/index.php
What would stop it? What would stop AT&T from telling ebay that they had to pay AT&T one cent everytime an AT&T customer visited ebay? If ebay says that is unacceptable then AT&T can block ebay's traffic. And for the AT&T customer who complains, the AT&T operator would say, "ebay did not pay their bill so we can't connect you, why don't you try AT&T's new auction site?"

sivran
God Save The Suite
Premium
join:2003-09-15
Arlington, TX
clubs:
·RoadRunner Cable

Re: Capping is not non-neutrality cause it is the same for all..

I think you misunderstand.

quote:
What would stop it? What would stop AT&T from telling ebay that they had to pay AT&T one cent everytime an AT&T customer visited ebay? If ebay says that is unacceptable then AT&T can block ebay's traffic.
Why, network neutrality would! That's the point. Your example is of a lack of neutrality, the very thing network neutrality proponents want to prevent.
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The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon profitable cause...
SuperWISP

join:2007-04-17
Laramie, WY

An alarmist attempt to grab attention

No; antitrust law would. "Network neutrality" is an attempt to (among other things) prohibit ISPs from charging a fair price for what they deliver. If a service costs more for the ISP to provide, it is entitled to charge more. Plain and simple. Trying to legislate getting something for nothing is not only insane; it's unconstitutional.
Forums » AT&T Thinks Network Neutrality Fight Is Over


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