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AT&T Slammed For Wireless Streaming 'Double Standard'
Consumer groups, cable execs say carrier's being dodgy, inconsistent...
by Karl Bode Tuesday 30-Jun-2009 tags: business · bandwidth · telco · content · net-neutrality · wireless
If you recall, AT&T recently took heavy criticism for changing their wireless TOS to prohibit video streaming, then telling us those changes were a mistake before reverting to an older TOS that also banned streaming. The carrier also crippled the iPhone Slingbox application, telling the press the application "could create congestion and potentially prevent other customers from using the network." So a number people are now wondering why AT&T has no problem with Major League Baseball streaming games via AT&T's 3G network. Consumer Group Free Press quickly jumped into the fray, alleging that AT&T was violating network neutrality:

"That strikes us as odd and potentially nefarious because it really represents a carrier picking and choosing applications for consumers as opposed to letting consumers decide which videos they want to watch," said Ben Scott, policy director of Free Press. "It's exactly the sort of thing you'd expect in an internet experience that's controlled by the carrier."

AT&T responded by first denying they're crippling any apps (which they are) and insisting it was an issue of fairness:

Click for full size
"We're certainly not crippling any apps," an AT&T spokesman said. "This is an issue of fairness.... While we would like to support all video services across our network, the reality is that wireless networks simply lack the capacity to support customers streaming hours of cable, satellite or IPTV video programming to individual users."

AT&T doesn't even bother to answer the question, nor do they explain what goes into deciding which wireless applications get official approval. While AT&T's decision is certainly somewhat based upon bandwidth constraints, capacity is sometimes falsely used to defend anti-competitive tactics on the content front (metered billing used to protect TV revenues comes to mind). One possibility is AT&T may not appreciate Slingbox functionality competing with future U-Verse DVR to iPhone ambitions. Another is Sling didn't pay enough to be treated "fairly."

AT&T's admission of a strained wireless network amused Insight Communications CEO Michael Willner, who blogged that he thought AT&T was engaged in a double standard. AT&T plans to spend billions in 2009 on capacity upgrades, after which they'll have less of an excuse for being arbitrarily selective about which streaming video applications are acceptable -- and which ones usher forth wireless network armageddon.

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S_engineer
Premium
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL

1 edit

Whats the Deathstar going to do....

Once Apple sees the light and end its exclusivity rights . The cashcow will be out of the barn!
The wireless apps will be tied to contracts, there really will be no neutrality in any form from At&t
--
BF69~~~Please stop suffocating gerbils!

en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

1 edit

Re: Whats the Deathstar going to do....

I suspect that Apple is obtaining more customers (globally) with its current arrangement than it would by creating different builds with either AWS (T-Mobile) 3G or even more expensive CDMA 1x/EVDO ( ~ 12% global market vs GSM based).

The issue at hand is:
Streaming (eg YouTube, etc. vs Slingbox vs AT&T Uverse app vs. MLB).

Watch what happens when there's an MLB competitor that does the EXACT same thing (eg Hulu ?)
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Mike
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Apple will be with AT&T until there is a business reason to not be.

AT&T and Apple are two types of evils - they combined forces and it's doing well for them. They're making an assload of cash off this iPhone thing.
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What this country needs is a good five dollar plasma weapon.

Matt
All noise, no signal.
Premium
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Jamestown, NC
kudos:12

1 edit

It's simple really

What don't you guys get? MLB paid AT&T millions (or the other way around) and Sling paid nothing. So, in AT&T's eyes, it's perfectly fair.

Oh and just in case ... [/sarcasm]

Goober
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
kudos:4

Re: It's simple really

I agree.

All apps are equal but some apps are more equal than others. --With apologies to George Orwell.

Matt
All noise, no signal.
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
kudos:12

Re: It's simple really

said by Goober:

I agree.

All apps are equal but some apps are more equal than others. --With apologies to George Orwell.
I don't think you need to apologize to Mr. Orwell. Were he alive, I believe he'd find that a rather apt usage of his quote.

GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL
said by Matt:

What don't you guys get? MLB paid AT&T millions (or the other way around) and Sling paid nothing. So, in AT&T's eyes, it's perfectly fair.
No sarcasm needed. That's pretty much it.

In other news....

said by Article :

"AT&T was violating network neutrality"
As much as I don't like AT&T, there is no network neutrality policy for them to violate. Neutrality is a nice idea but it isn't law...at least not yet.
--
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hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH

Re: It's simple really

And what is in writing only covers Internet/HSI it does not cover Wireless services such as Cell phones. They could claim it's not "true" video like they do with their TV services.

sonofjay
Mission Accomplished - Bush May 1, 2003
Premium,MVM
join:2001-05-14
North Attleboro, MA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Earthlink Cable ..

NFL Sunday Ticket Mobile streamed on iPhone

Wonder what AT&T will have to say about NFL games streamed to an iPhone using NFL Supercast Mobile App for iPhone.

quote:
»www.directv.com/DTVAPP/content/s···e_mobile

New for 2009! SUPERCAST MOBILE: Watch games on your iPhone

Catch every game, no matter where you are.

Now you can enjoy every NFL SUNDAY TICKET™ game, every Sunday, live on your iPhone or iPod touch. The new SUPERCAST Mobile app — available FREE to all SuperFan customers — includes all the great features of the SUPERCAST computer application. So you can now enjoy live streaming video, highlights, scores and stats wherever you happen to be.
View system requirements
• iPhone or iPod touch with software v3.0 or higher
• Requires a strong Wi-Fi, Edge or 3G network connection for streaming
• NFL SUNDAY TICKET SuperFan subscription required for streaming
• DIRECTV customers must have a directv.com account in good standing
Experience football like never before.
If you call yourself a football fan, you need NFL SUNDAY TICKET™, available only on DIRECTV.

--
Mission Accomplished

ptrowski
Got Helix?
Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
kudos:4

Re: NFL Sunday Ticket Mobile streamed on iPhone

Very good point!

OSUGoose

join:2007-12-27
Columbus, OH

Re: NFL Sunday Ticket Mobile streamed on iPhone

Considering that AT&T partners with DirecTV, it will get the rubber stamp apporval w/o even a thought.

tstolze
Premium
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said by sonofjay:

Wonder what AT&T will have to say about NFL games streamed to an iPhone using NFL Supercast Mobile App for iPhone.

quote:
»www.directv.com/DTVAPP/content/s···e_mobile

New for 2009! SUPERCAST MOBILE: Watch games on your iPhone

Catch every game, no matter where you are.


It all depends how much $$$$ they give ATT
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patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1

Re: NFL Sunday Ticket Mobile streamed on iPhone

said by tstolze:

It all depends how much $$$$ they give ATT
Or the other way around, football fans are a large guaranteed source of subscribers/revenue. Remember ESPN Mobile?

"We can add Sunday Ticket NFL to Verizon Vcast."

JSY
Premium
join:2000-04-05
Elmhurst, NY

Of course there is a double standard...

Slingplayer worked fine on my Nokia N95 and Blackberry Bold - both running on AT&T 3G network. I won't be buying the application for my iPhone so I don't care - but it's hard to accept what AT&T is saying - really translates to them believing that the Slingplayer userbase from iPhones would totally overwhelm the network, whereas the Slingplayer userbase of Nokia and Blackberry phones don't.

Note to AT&T - not everyone who has an iPhone has or has even heard of a Slingbox. 10 million iPhone users doesn't mean 10 million Slingplayer users.

NickD
Premium
join:2000-11-17
Princeton Junction, NJ

easy solution: jailbreak it

Then you can run or program any app you want
The jailbreakers will always be one step ahead of Apple

Matt
All noise, no signal.
Premium
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Jamestown, NC
kudos:12

Re: easy solution: jailbreak it

said by NickD:

Then you can run or program any app you want
The jailbreakers will always be one step ahead of Apple
This is akin to saying steal music because you don't agree with the price. It does nothing to address the underlying problem.

djrobx

join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
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Re: easy solution: jailbreak it

It does nothing to address the underlying problem.
It doesn't? I'm not so sure we'd have the DRM free, reasonably priced, a-la carte music purchasing options that we have if that industry wasn't competing with a five finger discount.
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Matt
All noise, no signal.
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join:2003-07-20
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Re: easy solution: jailbreak it

said by djrobx:

It does nothing to address the underlying problem.
It doesn't? I'm not so sure we'd have the DRM free, reasonably priced, a-la carte music purchasing options that we have if that industry wasn't competing with a five finger discount.
The push was more that people weren't buying multiple copies of music for each and every musical device, which is what the music industry wanted. While stealing music may have played a role, it was a small one.

S_engineer
Premium
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL
It may not address the problem, however it makes you sympathetic to the people that do it. Until we get informed, unpaid for regulators, this underlying problem will always prevail.
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Matt
All noise, no signal.
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kudos:12

Re: easy solution: jailbreak it

said by S_engineer:

It may not address the problem, however it makes you sympathetic to the people that do it. Until we get informed, unpaid for regulators, this underlying problem will always prevail.
I agree and I don't equate jailbreaking to stealing music. I would just hate to see people take the laissez-faire approach of, "Well, if I can jailbreak my iPhone, why should I care what AT&T allows?"

djrobx

join:2000-05-31
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Re: easy solution: jailbreak it

I would just hate to see people take the laissez-faire approach of "Well, if I can jailbreak my iPhone, why should I care what AT&T allows?"
I completely agree with you on that one!

Point being, people are more likely to break the rules and not lose sleep over it if they feel they are being subjected to unreasonable restrictions. If people do it en masse, it gets attention and it might even have a positive effect. I think music piracy is an example of how rampant rulebreaking has actually lead to a better experience for legal buyers.
--
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Your funeral. Delivered.

en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

Re: easy solution: jailbreak it

unfortunately, you won't find an unpaid regulator ... ever
--
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S_engineer
Premium
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL
the laissez-faire attitude you speak of is a consequence of At&t's actions. To sell technology in todays environment and then stifle applications in favor of the ones your trying to promote is insulting to the consumer.
Once insulted, the masses insult back via jailbreak!
--
BF69~~~Please stop suffocating gerbils!
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1
said by Matt:

I agree and I don't equate jailbreaking to stealing music. I would just hate to see people take the laissez-faire approach of, "Well, if I can jailbreak my iPhone, why should I care what AT&T allows?"
So what happens when the Apple hires some security engineers and follows proper ISO security theory standards and puts a cryptoprocessor on the iPhone and strips all the redundant code from iBoot to make jailbreaking impossible?

Xbox360 was "jailbroken" once in 2007. Never again. Microsoft did their homework. Apple didn't.
clickie

join:2005-05-22
Monroe, MI

Re: easy solution: jailbreak it

Apple has a long history of surrepticiously permitting hacking of their devices or OS and turning hundreds or thousands of basement coders into unpaid consultants.

You're right; when Apple no longer sees a benefit to their services, the door will be closed.

moon1234

@tds.net
The whole issue should be blamed on Apple. Since you are stuck using their App Store as the only legit way of obtaining software, you are allowing Apple to be manipulated by the carriers.

Windows Mobil, Symbian, Blackberry OS, etc. allow the user to install any App they want on the phone. The carrier has no say in what you do on YOUR device. This is why only iPhone owners are loosing out unless they jail break their phone.

The blame for this whole thing really rests with apple and their centralized "We decide what you can have" app store. No thanks. Would you buy an Apple Computer if you could only install Apps purchased for the Apple Store? Didn't think so. So why do you accept it on the iPhone?

Sprint is the most open carrier to letting you do what you want with your 5GB/month. I have been a customer for four years and have been happy the whole time.
sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:1

Re: easy solution: jailbreak it

You're happy with a 5 GB cap?

Well, as as long as you're aware wireless data plans are truly unlimited in Europe and Asia.

Alfred Newman

@bankone.com

Re: easy solution: jailbreak it

I believe the 5GB cap is only if you tether another device to it with their knowledge. If you were to do it without their knowledge (i.e. jailbreaking, Windows Mobile ICS) you'll be fine

NOVA_Guy
ObamaCare Kills Americans
Premium
join:2002-03-05

Will the real TOS please stand up...

So do all these ToS changes amount to something that would allow current users to end their contract without an ETF?

Just thinking that AT&T would probably take a pretty bad hit if all of a sudden millions of iPhone users left their contracts without paying an ETF, and then started up a new contract with a shiny, new, subsidized iPhone 3GS. Could this be an unforeseen loophole?
--
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The Obama Administration: as transparent as my grandmother's flannel nightgown.

atuarre
Here come the drums
Premium
join:2004-02-14
College Station, TX

What does it matter?

What does it matter? The same people complaining about this would be complaining when they got the bill $60.000 bill for streaming the game and then would tell AT&T they did not know.

SirMeowmix_III

@windstream.net

Multicast?

Does the carriers streaming application use multicast, so there is some honesty involved here with using multicast to deliver content versus IP->IP such as Slingbox and the effects of limited bandwidth?
cornelius785

join:2006-10-26
Worcester, MA

Re: Multicast?

That's what i'm thinking, plus the possible millions of dollars in a deal. the actual bandwidth usage would obviously be much lower for X users using the MLB streaming stuff as oppose X users using slingbox.

BSD24
Tier 4
Premium
join:2008-04-30
Middleboro, MA

Glad I have Sprint 3G!

Well gotta say again, Sprint rulez, no issues using "Sprint TV" which is on-demand shows and live tv streams from many channels, works great on top of the fastest, i say go SPRINT! I can watch streams, and haven't ever been stopped by Sprint for doing so... Sorry AT&T - I think apple needs to switch to a better carrier like Sprint, especially seeing as though Sprint already has the worlds first 4G....
--
BSD

See 6 replies to this post
axiomatic

join:2006-08-23
Tomball, TX

Break it down

It's time to break this door down and get ATT to turn back on streaming for Slingplayer.

This is an obvious double standard that would not be here if there were net neutrality laws.
pika2000

join:2005-10-13
Seattle, WA

1 edit

Hahahaha

quote:
"This is an issue of fairness.... While we would like to support all video services across our network, the reality is that wireless networks simply lack the capacity to support customers streaming hours of cable, satellite or IPTV video programming to individual users."
Read:
"This is an issue of our bottom line.... While we would like to support all video services across our network, the reality is people are still giving us money regardless of what we're doing. So why should we provider better service or improve our networks?."

The irony is, why is there no mass protest to Apple/AT&T to sell the iPhone unlocked? Apple has been selling unlocked iPhones officially in other countries. People bitch & whine about AT&T, yet they're still giving them money. Go figure. I mean, we still PAY for incoming calls/SMS for God's sake.

Oh, before anybody whining about paying full price, unlocked is not related to subsidy. High end smartphones, including the iPhone, under contract and subsidy sold in countries like Singapore are unlocked out of the box.

JSY
Premium
join:2000-04-05
Elmhurst, NY

Re: Hahahaha

said by pika2000:


The irony is, why is there no mass protest to Apple/AT&T to sell the iPhone unlocked? Apple has been selling unlocked iPhones officially in other countries. People bitch & whine about AT&T, yet they're still giving them money. Go figure. I mean, we still PAY for incoming calls/SMS for God's sake.
I think part of that is because a lot of those countries have laws prohibiting locked phones.
pika2000

join:2005-10-13
Seattle, WA

Re: Hahahaha

said by JSY:

I think part of that is because a lot of those countries have laws prohibiting locked phones.
In some European countries, probably. In Asia, as far as I know it's simply the norm and the market dictates that phones are not provider locked. Note that there is still exclusivity. I take Singapore again for example, iPhone is only available via Singtel, but it's unlocked out of the box.

My point is, people whine & bitch about AT&T, but still giving money to them. So if I were AT&T, why should I bother? MMS? Tethering? Even a cellular provider from Indonesia, Telkomsel, offers MMS & tethering for iPhone 3.0 at launch. AT&T? Nope.
k1ll3rdr4g0n

join:2005-03-19
Homer Glen, IL

Another point

I think everyone is missing another point and the reason why the slingbox app was crippled on iPhones (even though AT&T is denying they did that? This makes me wonder if it was just a preemptive action on Apple's part? But that is a discussion for another day). You are no longer a customer, you are just another number in a statistic.
Given X number of users who have a slingbox-iPhone app will stream for Y minutes using up Z bytes of data. Let this be #sling-bytes.
Given X number of users who have MLB streaming for Y minutes using up Z bytes of data. Let this be #MLB-bytes
The cost of #MLB-bytes will be less than the cost of #sling-bytes.
Also if you want to consider the # of users who have Windows Mobile and a slingbox app - this number will probably still be less than the number of iPhone users who have and/or use the slingbox app.

Sure, it is a violation of network neutrality, but here is where AT&T will tip toe around it. AT&T has not, and will not, cripple the app (if one exists) for Windows Mobile or Android phones. This logically tells me that this is just a slap in the face for every Apple fan boy out there. One thing I don't understand is why iPhone owners don't just get together and start to email Steve Jobs and complain about it? From what I hear their executive CSR usually listens to the customers.
beaups

join:2003-08-11
Hilliard, OH

Re: Another point

You make great points. How many iphone users are going to stream live MLB over the cell network? not too many. How many winmobile users are going to stream sling over the 3G network? not too many. How many iphone users would??? a crapload.

We can argue it all we want, but when a data intensive program makes it's way to the iphone it can CRIPPLE the network. Look at the youtube stats, mobile browsing stats, etc. Iphone users use the crap out of the data. Should ATT be able to handle it? Maybe. But we do know that 3G bandwidth is shared and limited. The same people here bitching about no sling would be bitching if they allowed it and their download speeds dropped 20% due to the network saturation.

I don't believe there are any network neutrality laws in place for mobile carriers, and thank god. Last thing I need is a bunch of WinMO geeks running P2P all day.
beaups

join:2003-08-11
Hilliard, OH
Lastly, whether ATT cripples a simliar app for other platforms is moot. If you run sling on a winmo or BB phone you are violating the ATT TOS. The only difference here is now to do this on the iphone requires a little more work. Not a lot, but a little.
k1ll3rdr4g0n

join:2005-03-19
Homer Glen, IL

Re: Another point

said by beaups:

Lastly, whether ATT cripples a simliar app for other platforms is moot. If you run sling on a winmo or BB phone you are violating the ATT TOS. The only difference here is now to do this on the iphone requires a little more work. Not a lot, but a little.
This is very true, however, no provider seems to actually take their TOS seriously. I mean, how much talk have you heard about all this "ohh the users are using too much bandwidth, they are going to cripple the network" without a single user getting booted? In my opinion, it's just a scare tactic to stop the average user. I mean there has to be torrent clients for every platform (and getting heavily used) by now and you don't see provider towers getting knocked over. My two cents anyways for what they are worth.

Another point to add is that AT&T was allowed to change the terms of the contract without breaking it for the users? I wonder I can change the terms without breaking it then too!
beaups

join:2003-08-11
Hilliard, OH

Re: Another point

Your comment about att being allowed to change tos during contract is well received by me. Seems they may have just opened themselves up for ETF waivers.

My point with sling is that since apps go through an approval process, how could apple possibly allow (i.e. endorse) an application that by using it is in direct conflict with ATT TOS.

Now ATT TOS addition's timing was obviously a weasley move and disappointing. But....I CAN see why Apple can't approve an app that is in direct conflict with the TOS attached to the service.

I do feel that all the UVERSE streaming rumors are total FUD, and BBR being big spreaders/speculators. They've been talking for months how this TOS move was to block competition...now the UVERSE app is released and all it does is remote scheduling.

Why would anyone believe that ATT is going to jeopardize their wireless QOS to add a feature for their lousy TV service?? Silly.
axiomatic

join:2006-08-23
Tomball, TX
I call BS. The TOS violation is quite new as I have been streaming on my company HTC 8525 and my prior 8125 on ATT's network for over 4+ years, and I still do. In fact I am watching baseball in my lab here at work RIGHT NOW while working. No complaint from ATT ever.

This is purely an anti competitive shot at Sling and if there were net neutrality laws this would never have occured.

Ioweyou

@comcast.net

What's the reason

for streaming baseball? Money!
stridr69

join:2003-05-19
San Luis Obispo, CA

ATT



Amazing I'm able to use tethering on "so last years" 3G iPhone(using the current 3.0 OS), but not Slingbox, as I type this(see above). (Note: my 3G iPhone isn't jailbroken..okay?). Just bug's me to death. C'mon, ATT-you allow that new XM/Sirius streaming app(hear it ALL the time on XM), but not slingbox?
Hmmmmm....
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:4
Reviews:
·RoadRunner Cable

The "double standard" is Karl's

because he is equating a controlled, limited, single-stream video service (MLB) with a wide-open, unlimited, one-stream-per-user capability (Sling).

This is like driving a giant Army tank down your neighborhood street and then complaining when you're arrested: "They let cars drive here -- why not my tank?"

The MLB At Bat 2009 iPhone application does live streaming of only one or two games per night. It's a single stream that is fanned out to the viewers.

SlingPlayer is a one-per-user stream for the user's personal video (from the SlingBox). It's obviously going to put exponentially more load on the network than MLB.

Every time one of these issues comes up (the last one was talking about U-verse TV vs. online video services like Hulu) I point out that it's a complete apples vs. oranges comparison, and Karl never responds.

I can only conclude that he is deliberately blurring the facts in order to bash AT&T. Sorry to be so harsh but I don't know what other conclusion to reach.
axiomatic

join:2006-08-23
Tomball, TX

3 edits

Re: The "double standard" is Karl's

So a 128k to 256k Sling stream is a TANK? LOL. OK, whatever you say...

You do realize that Sling says they have about 300k unique customers... and their streams are going to usually be localized to the city they live in and one guy streaming in one city will RARELY impact another person streaming in another city. Networks just dont work that way.

Don't believe the hype... speaking as a network engineer this is politics. There is no technical reason to disallow the Sling client.

Edit: Another point... the chances of more than one or two users streaming at the same time to the same tower is pretty remote... so at any one given time on one tower, lets say there is 3 users Slinging at the same time, that's 768k all at one time.... yeah that tower is not even breaking a sweat.

Pure 100% unadulterated F.U.D. from ATT.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:4
Reviews:
·RoadRunner Cable

Re: The "double standard" is Karl's

Interesting input.

Where do you find the 128k-256k bandwidth usage number for SlingPlayer Mobile for iPhone? I haven't seen a number out there.

What about the backhaul issue? I understand many of these towers have a T1 at best for backhaul. So just a few Sling users would eat all the capacity, right?

Also is it not the case that an app like MLB does not require a unique stream from network to the tower? Thus it would not require multiple streams over the backhaul, just one. That is really what I was getting at as my issue, sorry if it wasn't clear.
axiomatic

join:2006-08-23
Tomball, TX

Re: The "double standard" is Karl's

256k is the max the player will allow if you are streaming to the internet. (without hacking the slingplayer software.) If you are on an home intranet LAN then the max I usually see is around 1 to 2 mega bits depending on signal strength.

T1 speeds are around 1.544 mega bits per second so there is plenty of bandwidth available. So just a few users would not eat up all the bandwidth. The real point though is that the chances of more than 3 people being on the same tower at the same time is pretty low. Remember, Sling says we are talking about 300,000 unique users spread over the continental US. That's a really low number. Lets also not forget ORB which is allowed on the ATT/Apple phone and its bandwidth requirements are far more needy than the Sling client.

Sorry I snapped at you, this issue really pisses me off, its not you. I have friends that work as L3 network admins at ATT and they think this issue is pure bullshit.
MyDogHsFleas
Premium
join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:4
Reviews:
·RoadRunner Cable

Re: The "double standard" is Karl's

no apology necessary I like hearing from people who know something, even if they are testy.

The following is speculation. I imagine that somehow AT&T treats iPhone very, very carefully because they have such a large user base, and an exclusive deal with Apple, that if anything messes up it looks very, very bad for them. Therefore they are ultra mega cautious about doing anything.

I think that's a much more likely explanation for their behavior than a network-neutrality fever-inspired conspiracy theory.

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