AT&T Restates That FTTH is UnnecessaryIn copper and compression they trust... ( old news - 03:14PM Tuesday Dec 05 2006) tags: dsl · Fiber · business · bandwidth · telco · networkingTipped by TK Junk Mail  AT&T is again defending their decision to go with 25Mbps VDSL instead of fiber to the home, according to Reuters. "Our view at this point is that we're not going to have go 'fiber to the home,'" insists AT&T CFO Richard Lindner. "We're pleased with the bandwidth that we're seeing over copper," he says. "On average, at this point, we're producing about 25 megabits (per second). But in many many locations, we're producing substantially more than that." Those locations are homes that are substantially closer to the CO. As AT&T told us, they hope improved compression and channel bonding will provide more than 25Mbps. The company has said they plan on eventually offering customers two live HD streams, 2 SD streams, 6Mbps VDSL + overhead within that 25Mbps. Industry analysts are skeptical, saying that AT&T will be forced to compromise the quality of the HD streams.
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SoonerorLAter
@usfca.edu | 25mbits is not enough for internet, tv, phone ... I want my HDTV and not some compressed version | |
|  | Zorglub
join:2000-11-18
Fremont, CA | Re: 25mbits is not enough for internet, tv, phone At least now, I know for a fact that I don't need a 1080p TV, 720p will suffice since ATT will never have the bandwidth to provide more than that. | |
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Camelot One
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-21
Sarasota, FL
clubs:
 ·VoicePulse
| Re: 25mbits is not enough for internet, tv, phone Yeah but there is HDTV, and then there is HDTV. DirecTV is currently advertising/selling "HDTV", but its highly compressed 1280x720p or 1280x1080i depending on the source channel. (no, that isn't just a typo)
Neither of which look as good as their OTA counterparts.
So can AT&T deliver HDTV plus everything else over 25Mbps, sure. Will it look as good as an OTA HDTV broadcast....very doubtful.
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AMD X2 4800+ @2700Mhz/ MSI K8N Neo 4 Platinum SLI/ 4x 1024Mb Corsair XMS PC4000/ WD 74Gb Raptor/ PNY 7800GTs SLI/ Antec 550 True Control/Custom water cooler | |
| | | | inurenegade
join:2006-06-11
Wilmington, DE | Re: 25mbits is not enough for internet, tv, phone directtv's 1280x1080i anamorphic video requires up to 15 mbps
so damn how the hell is att gonna pull this off | |
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LilYoda
Feline with squirel personality disorder
Premium
join:2004-09-02
Mountains
| Re: 25mbits is not enough for internet, tv, phone MPEG4 or H.264
For those that say they want HD "not compressed", wake up, that would require several Gbps of speed. Even Verizon's FiosTV is compressed HD (MPEG2?)
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"the two most abundant things in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity." (Harlan Ellison) | |
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N3OGH
Will it all be Obama's fault now?
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| AT&T restates that FTTH is unnecessary they intend to push a dying technology so the CEO can keep the bottom line fat to plump his pension..
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Never ask what sort of a computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user, he'll tell you. If not, why embarrass him? -Tom Clancy | |
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JamesPC
join:2005-10-12
Orange, CA | Re: 25mbits is not enough for internet, tv, phone So they dont have to go more into the RED like "Verizon" | |
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N3OGH
Will it all be Obama's fault now?
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: 25mbits is not enough for internet, tv, phone said by JamesPC :So they dont have to go more into the RED like "Verizon" Gotta spend money to make money. When AT&T is still paying the high cost of maintaining a rickety old copper plant, with no chance of matching the abilities of fiber, Verizon will be selling TV, Internet, and Phone over the most advanced network in the country.
When people living in AT&T territory get wind en mass of what fiber is capable of, they'll demand it.
Either way the day is coming when AT&T is going to HAVE to invest in FTTH. They're just trying to prolong the inevitable.
This is a classic case of good money chasing bad. Investing in all that "lightspeed" gear is gonna make things even more expensive, since it'll all be totally obsolete in 5 years...
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Never ask what sort of a computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user, he'll tell you. If not, why embarrass him? -Tom Clancy | |
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TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
 ·Comcast
edit:
December 5th, @04:40PM
| Re: 25mbits is not enough for internet, tv, phone said by N3OGH : When AT&T is still paying the high cost of maintaining a rickety old copper plant, with no chance of matching the abilities of fiber, Verizon will be selling TV, Internet, and Phone over the most advanced network in the country.
Either way the day is coming when AT&T is going to HAVE to invest in FTTH. They're just trying to prolong the inevitable.
This is a classic case of good money chasing bad. Investing in all that "lightspeed" gear is gonna make things even more expensive, since it'll all be totally obsolete in 5 years... It is not as black and white as many here believe concerning fiber investment. AT&T is investing a lot of money to extend fiber in their plant: from CO to POPs; from POPs to curb(FTTC) in many places, etc. And even FTTH in greenfield developments. So the world is gray and not black and white. A lot of the cost to maintain copper is being eliminated already. And they will be getting more money from customers for TV to help finance future roll-outs of fiber, including more FTTH.
So whose method is best? Verizon's way of paying most of the FTTH costs in one big splurge? Or AT&T's way of "pay as you go"? The answer depends a lot on the relative costs of capital vs return on capital for the 2 firms and on their access to investment money. And if you are a CEO and CFO of these companies, what the Board of Directors see in financial results quarter by quarter. If the CEO/CFO's guess wrong their jobs are on the line.
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My BLOG
My Web Page | |
| | | | | | | bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
·Packet8
·Cox HSI
| Re: 25mbits is not enough for internet, tv, phone said by TK Junk Mail :So whose method is best? Verizon's way of paying most of the FTTH costs in one big splurge? Or AT&T's way of "pay as you go"? Build it right the first time and get it paid for... Or keep pay for continual incremental upgrades as you play catch up...
In the long run, one costs less..
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Prove it... | |
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sporkme
drop the crantini and move it, sister
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-01
Morristown, NJ
·Optimum Online
| Re: 25mbits is not enough for internet, tv, phone said by bmn :said by TK Junk Mail :So whose method is best? Verizon's way of paying most of the FTTH costs in one big splurge? Or AT&T's way of "pay as you go"? Build it right the first time and get it paid for... Or keep pay for continual incremental upgrades as you play catch up... In the long run, one costs less.. Exactly. While the cost of "normal" DSLAMs and the like have been falling, all this cutting edge VDSL stuff is not cheap. Nor are the settop boxes, dsl modems, etc. And if ATT goes through a few iterations of DSL technology to keep pace with things, that's even more money. And the continuing maintenance of all that copper, even if it is being "pushed out" closer to the customer, is still going to be much more than maintaining a fiber plant. Especially if they need to bond multiple pairs to get the bandwidth they need for a home with 3 or 4 televisions and 2 or more DVRs.
I absolutely despise Verizon, but I think they clearly made the right move with FiOS. | |
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Blasterbator
Sent By Grocery Clerks
join:2001-02-20
Jackson, MS | Got ROI? | |
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thender
Glamour Profession
Premium
join:2004-05-16
Staten Island, NY
| said by JamesPC :So they dont have to go more into the RED like "Verizon" Thirty years from now they won't even be a company. | |
| | | bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Covington, LA | No one broadcasts in 1080p | |
| | | | Zorglub
join:2000-11-18
Fremont, CA
| Re: 25mbits is not enough for internet, tv, phone said by bogey780 :No one broadcasts in 1080p I was being sarcastic... Nobody has the bandwidth right now, and ATT certainly won't have it any time soon. | |
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dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
| said by bogey780 :No one broadcasts in 1080p And i dont think anyone will[at least in our lifetimes]
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You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth | |
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LightSpan
Premium
join:2004-02-18
Georgetown, KY | Who say's the fiber has to go all the way to the house FTTC,why can't the last couple of hundred feet be copper? VDSL run really good on the DISCS MX platform  . | |
| | | | bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Covington, LA | Re: 25mbits is not enough for internet, tv, phone MX*DISCS uber alles.
No CPE power needed and upgrades allow speed comparable to FIOS. | |
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Rob
In Deo speramus
Premium
join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL
·Comcast
| Here's the problem.. quote:
They company has said they plan on eventually offering customers two live HD streams, 2 SD streams, 6Mbps VDSL + overhead within that 25Mbps
Customers don't want 6meg VDSL, they want 60meg Internet. VDSL just cannot provide what FTTH can.
Lack of AT&T's ambition to run FTTH now will result in AT&T being exactly where they are today in 10-15 years (or less). Outdated and absoluete. These mega companies are what is keeping the U.S. low in the list of broadband advancement.
Verizon has the right idea.
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YourIP.US - Quickly Locate Your IP! | |
| raye
Premium
join:2000-08-14
Orange, CA | pleased with the bandwidth that we're seeing over copper But your customers will not be. Thus cable should win out in areas served by AT&T. | |
| Turbocpe
Premium
join:2001-12-22
IA
edit:
December 5th, @03:16PM
| They [sic] company quote:
They company
| |
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ficken
don't get any bright ideas
Premium
join:2000-10-07
11111 | But.. They kind of forget to mention that in eastern Jackson county, MO they sorta ran fiber out to houses at a few developments. | |
| | hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH | Re: But.. But its probably capped at 6Mbps LOL Because ATT knows what everyone needs. | |
|
elefant_att
@verizon.net | dont' forget Let's remember delayed deployment well into 201X-202X season before it gets to middle america! | |
| | olegy
join:2003-06-02
San Diego, CA | 25mpbs internet I want 25mpbs internet, and 0 mbps IPTV.
If it will be offered as a bundle, I'll pass on everything.
Having invested a lot of money into Dish HDTV DVR equipment, I have zero desire to pay ~$80 per month for the already outdated 6/1 service. | |
| | krobar
Is this thing on?
join:2002-09-15
Columbus, OH
| Re: 25mpbs internet I have to agree, only I just don't really watch tv that isn't ota, between netflix and what not, the wife and I enjoy being on the net and interacting with other people instead of tv usually, so I won't be signing up unless it's to get that 25mbps (minimum) internet hehe
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Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat. | |
| RJ44
join:2001-10-19
Nashville, TN | Read the quote Everyone saw the 25M reference but didn't anyone notice this?
"On average, at this point, we're producing about 25 megabits (per second). But in many many locations, we're producing substantially more than that." | |
| | bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus | Re: Read the quote Yeah, BUT...
Its follow by: Those locations are homes that are substantially closer to the CO.
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Prove it... | |
| | | RJ44
join:2001-10-19
Nashville, TN
| Re: Read the quote said by bmn :Yeah, BUT... Its follow by: Those locations are homes that are substantially closer to the CO. Which was added by the editors of DSLR, not the AT&T spokesman. But yeah, it's DSL, the closer the better. | |
| | | 
guitarzan
Premium
join:2004-05-04
Skytop, PA
·epix
| said by bmn :Yeah, BUT... Its follow by: Those locations are homes that are substantially closer to the CO. That is good news for those users.
Will subscribers who are 10,000 feet or more from the CO, even qualify for 25Mbps VDSL. ?
This is going to sux, for users who can't get DSL speed increases now, due to distance limits.
The demand for fiber is here now. ATT should follow Verizon's lead or get out of the way of subscribers jumping ship 
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Its the Democrats fault. In fact it is the Speaker of House Polosi fault. Everything is the Democrats fault. Everything. Just like Everything was the Republicans Fault when they were in power. | |
| | | | carpdiem
join:2001-02-11
Cedarburg, WI
·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: Read the quote It's not about the locations/homes being close to the CO. It's about homes being close to the 7330 VRAD NODE and the distribution copper loop distance, gauge, condition, etc. There are area's that can get DSL today from a CO based DSLAM but not get FTTN because there hasn't been a VRAD placed for that particular area yet. Same holds true for customers that today get their DSL via RT, when too far from CO DSLAM. Fiber is the demand and it's being pushed further out into the network. To the home for a lot of new developments and to the node for existing developments. There are so many what ifs in both sides of the argument. Who knows there could be a conversion addition to make these cabinets in PFP for fiber to the home 3-5 years down the road. I think that for now the majority of users will be very satisfied with the 25Mbps. When the majority is starting to think they may want more bandwidth then they'll look at alternatives to push the fiber the last mile or get more from the copper with reasonable costs. The price of both technologies from the time it was available to today has dropped substantially and will continue to. Let's just wait and see. It wasn't too long ago people didn't think they could get faster than 64k out of 26g copper. Then it was they couldn't get more than 1.5Mbps out of that same cable. | |
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guitarzan
Premium
join:2004-05-04
Skytop, PA | Re: Read the quote Carpdiem
Thank You for explaining, about the technology ATT is using to deploy such services. | |
| | jtel
join:2005-06-28
Bristol, RI | Re: Read between the quote It is statistically impossible to be producing substantially more than 'X' in many, many locations without producing less than 'X' in many many locations.
The 25mbps average could be skewed upwards substantially. | |
| | | bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Covington, LA | Re: Read between the quote He's not a statician. His use of "average" isn't the statistical sense. | |
| | | | jtel
join:2005-06-28
Bristol, RI
·Cox HSI
| Re: Read between the quote "He's not a statician. His use of "average" isn't the statistical sense."
He's the Chief Financial Officer telling the customer what they will be pleased with. Is this the same guy that said the product would be in 20 markets (not 20 neighborhoods) by years end (closing fast)?
How many black rotary phone rentals to pay his salary? | |
| | | bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus | Man, its always good to see people who paid attention in their stats classes posting on the site...
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Prove it... | |
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest
| Re: Read the quote said by RJ44 :"On average, at this point, we're producing about 25 megabits (per second). But in many many locations, we're producing substantially more than that." Ya I saw it.
Check it out: at&t's Solution!
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"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
| bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
·Packet8
·Cox HSI
edit:
December 5th, @04:10PM
| The way they keep saying this over and over again... Reminds me of a little kid sticking his/her fingers in their ears and standing there going "Nyeh! Nyeh! Nyeh! Nyeh!" and trying to ignore the reality of the world.
The idea that they aren't going to have to go FTTH just flies into the face of what the experts and people in the industry who have a clue have said for years.
ATT and the other ILECs who seem to be avoiding the FTTH bus and who keep trying to use a deadend technology clearly need to hire some people who have a clue about the technology side of their business.
We aren't dealing with butt sets, rotary dial phones and relay driven phone switching any more... 
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Prove it... | |
| |
FiOS Lover
@verizon.com
|  Re: The way they keep saying this over and over again...
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest
| said by bmn :ATT and the other ILECs who seem to be avoiding the FTTH bus and who keep trying to use a deadend technology clearly need to hire some people who have a clue about the technology side of their business. Personally I think they have the monopoly mentality clouding their thinking. They are acting like a slow plodding Giant who has nothing to fear except failing to squeeze as much profit as they can out of their captive audience.
I think they are forgetting about their other arch-rival, the Cable companies. If at&t doesn't get moving, people like Cox communications are going to EAT THEM ALIVE. When Cox arrives with HDTV, Super Highspeed Internet, VOD, VOIP telephone etc to people's home and at&t's best offering is medium speed VDSL with some IPTV, they are going to get "pwned" ....
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"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
| 
ztmike
Premium
join:2001-08-02
Michigan City, IN | DSL speed? If 25Mbps is for the HD, Are they gonna even have enough speed for the interent? Espically the ones that dont live close to the CO?  | |
| 
Varlik
Without Honor You Will Never Be Free
Premium
join:2002-01-06
Anderson, SC
edit:
December 5th, @04:31PM
| AT&T Restates That FTTH is Unnecessary. Yeah and Denial is a river in Egypt.
"Our view at this point is that we're not going to have go 'fiber to the home,'" Hum what do your customers think about this? Oh probably not much now but lets give it a few years. You just got to love mama bell and their copper forever attitude. | |
| 
major marco
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Mission Viejo, CA
clubs:
edit:
December 5th, @04:55PM
| AT&T... (1) working hard to keep current obsolete (copper) technology to jack up their profits; (2) invade your privacy by turning over all records to the NSA so your government can spy on you; and, (3) keeping the U.S.A. at #15 on the global broadband list. Read it and weep, kids. When communist China beats the wealthiest country on the planet in BB penetration, there's a problem.
FTTH, OTOH, was just as pitiful. Telcos & cable et al. aren't in the business of providing service. Just making $$$$$$$ and gouging consumers as deep as they possibly can.
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The Toll
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| 
lml2000
Whazzup
join:2000-08-17
Los Angeles, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
| What Do U Expect Them to Say? "We were wrong. We f'kd up. We shoulda been pushing fiber from the start."
Of course not. Look, it'll probably take AT&T another 3-5 years to begin to push FTTH. By then it'll be more expensive than today. In the meantime, if you have a large family, want to video stream more than one HD feed to your house, & have 5-6Mbps of Internet bandwidth, it's clear as day, there's gonna be a capacity issue.
OTA HD broadcasts come in at 19.2Mbps. Figure with MPEG-4 or VC-1 compression, AT&T can get that down to 11-12 Mbps w/o perceptible loss of video quality to the average sub. So, with Internet & VoIP, I just don't see how they plan to capture the larger household market.
They'll realize their mistep eventually, but then qualify it as strategic, but in reality, I just don't think AT&T is going to compete very well against major MSOs in its franchise markets. Time will surely tell. JMO | |
| |
jerry1u232
@agedwards.com
| Re: What Do U Expect Them to Say? I am getting 55 megabits over a single twisted copper pair. Not sure on the distance to the CO though? You introduce pair bonding and the "average" goes from around 25 to somewhere in the neighborhood of 50.
You all should understand that corporate America, especially telecommunication companies, often underestimate.
Also, the average price per house passed keeps dropping for Verizon which would support at&t "pay as you go strategy"
You should also look at the geography of each provider. Verizon strategy is supported since their customers aren't as spread out as at&t. LOOK AT A MAP and any person can rationalize that each company took the right step. | |
| 
fcisler
Premium
join:2004-06-14
Riverhead, NY
| 25mb? pfffftttttt! I get 30/5 from optonline AND tv....all on a nice little piece of COAX!
25Mb - MAX - for everything? no thanks! I'm not saying OOL is ALWAYS 30/5 - but the capability is there. Do you think that ATT's 25 is always 25 either???
Not to mention that the 5, yes five, different and diverse (not one of the places was in the same CO or closer than around 5 miles to the next) places that I have lived - i have been able to get DSL. NOT A ONE!
To me, "this DSL thing" is utterly useless. Someone's gonna argue that too, and that's fine. It is utterly and absolutely useless to me because it's not available to me! | |
| 
danza
Premium
join:2002-08-23
| Well.. The bandwidth demand will only go UP in the future, and right now copper is severely limited compare to coax or fiber. It just shows how stubborn and short sighted those people are.
Why cant we stay 'ahead' of the game? instead we are just trying to be 'good enough'  | |
| kd6cae
P2p Shouldn't Be A Crime
join:2001-08-27
Palmdale, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
·DSL EXTREME
 ·Dreamhost
·Charter Pipeline
| Why is AT&T afraid of fiber? OK why is AT&T so against Fiber, when fiber connections connect many of the very networks that make up the internet together, including their own backbone? Why not take fiber technology all the way to the end user, I mean, heck Fiber connections are quite common among businesses, so why not the end home user?
I live just a few blocks from a very nice fiber connection. This fiber connection to the internet is located at the university of California at Riverside, which I'm only 2 blocks from, yet all I get is an asymmetrical cable connection, or 6mbps dsl, what's up with that?
And why do the idiots at AT&T only want to provide 6/1 speeds to/from the internet over their next generation network? Excuse me, but can't existing ADSL technology do this already? So where's the improvement there? They can easily offer 6000/1000 over existing ADSL lines, but they only want to do 768 on the upload? I don't understand AT&T's logic here! I'm quite happy with my cable 10mbps/1mbps link, even if I do live just 2 blocks from very nice network connectivity. | |
| |
See 13 replies to this post | |
Rick
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-06
Waterbury, CT
clubs:
| Huh? "On average, at this point, we're producing about 25 megabits (per second). But in many many locations, we're producing substantially more than that."
Many, Many locations? Last I saw on the BBR news, AT&T's "uverse's" many many locations = 2.
So much for 15 to 20 by years end, huh?
AT&T..WHAT ARE YOU HIDING? WHAT ARE YOU NOT TELLING YOUR CUSTOMERS and YOUR INVESTORS? What Kinds of PROBLEMS are you running into rolling out your version of UVERSE?
Where's the beef? Where's the 15 to 20 markets?
What the HE^^ is going on?????
Inquiring minds want to know..and WE WANT TO KNOW!!
It wouldn't have anything to do with old, tired..worn out..
COPPER now, would it?
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The life you help save just might be your own Team Discovery | |
| myerskl
join:2001-05-31
Fairborn, OH | OK They can't even get 6MB working for me now at a little over 5,000ft let alone 25MB. | |
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Now only IF they can get DSL
