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story category AT&T: No, We Didn't Misconfigure Our 3G Network
Carrier claims latency criticisms are unfounded
02:08PM Thursday Oct 29 2009 by Karl Bode
tags: business · bandwidth · networking
Earlier this week, blogger and 25-year communications industry vet Brough Turner started a bit of a ruckus with a blog post suggesting that AT&T's wireless broadband network problems were partially AT&T's fault, and not just attributable to the massive influx of data-hungry iPhone users. Though he admittedly didn't have access to the AT&T network guts or first hand experience running a HSDPA GSM network, Turner speculated that AT&T had misconfigured their network, specifically in terms of latency and RNC buffers:

It appears AT&T Wireless has configured their RNC buffers so there is no packet loss, ie with buffers capable of holding more than ten seconds of data. Zero packet loss may sound impressive to a telephone guy, but it causes TCP congestion collapse and thus doesn't work for the mobile Internet.
It's fairly amazing how far and wide Turner's analysis resonated across the Internet, with literally dozens of stories quickly popping up on how AT&T's problems may have been partially their own fault. That of course put AT&T's primary wireless PR protectorate Seth Bloom back into his unenviable position of having to play public relations bomb disposal, and Bloom spent the week contacting dozens of blogs to deny the allegation.

"We believe that recent online speculation regarding AT&T wireless network configuration settings is without foundation," says the company. "Allegations in these posts regarding packet loss network settings are incorrect." "The AT&T wireless network is designed and engineered to deliver the highest possible levels of capacity and performance," says AT&T, who insists that their standing as operator of the fastest 3G network is "validated by multiple third-party testing organizations."

Yes and no. While AT&T's HSDPA network is technically capable of faster speeds than Verizon and Sprint EVDO, it it very often doesn't act that way -- particularly in congested networks like New York City. A recent suite of tests by several news outlets highlighted how AT&T's technically faster network quite often under-performs (see both PC World and Wired tests from earlier this year).

The thing is, whether Turner's diagnosis is accurate or not, AT&T has continually found itself on the receiving end of network quality criticism for a reason -- namely that their network isn't performing well for a significant number of their users. AT&T continues to insist that they're quickly adding cell cites, backhaul and migrating markets to the more capable 850Mhz GSM band. Still, with the kind of wireless data revenues AT&T pulls in each quarter, there's really no excuse for the problems in the first place or moving forward -- no matter what the cause.

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Forums » AT&T: No, We Didn't Misconfigure Our 3G Network
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baineschile
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1 edit

Really?

A young male who thinks he knows more than he actually does bashing a tech company? I have NEVER heard of that before...........in any blog/tech news site....................

/sarcasm

Edit: Sorry, misread article. Thought it was a 25 year old.

Rob
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Re: Really?

said by baineschile See Profile :

A young male who thinks he knows more than he actually does bashing a tech company? I have NEVER heard of that before...........in any blog/tech news site....................

/sarcasm
Psst.. he's a 25-year veteran of the communication industry.. NOT a 25-year OLD.
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quatrix
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1 edit

Re: Really?

I know plenty of 25-year-olds who know more than clueless 25-year industry veterans. Funny how blogs magically turn people into couch experts.

Karl Bode
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25 year industry vet. Not a 25 year old.
cmaenginsb
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Re: Really?

said by Karl Bode See Profile :

25 year industry vet. Not a 25 year old.
None of it in wireless, most of it doing PBX work based on his own website. It's like saying a 25 year veteran OBGyn can do the same job as a 25 year brain surgeon.
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said by Karl Bode See Profile :

25 year industry vet. Not a 25 year old.
You know they start them young these days, Karl.
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PapaMidnight

join:2009-01-13
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25 year vet of the industry, not 25 years old.
Metatron2008

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Re: Really?

I don't think you know from the 3 above answers, but he might be a 25 year vet.

battleop

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00000
You just described 97% of the readers here.

bender
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Re: Really?

i resemble that remark. well, plus 2 years
Chaldo

join:2008-03-18
West Bloomfield, MI

Then why are we still in this situation?

Look at countries in EURO they all run GSM networks, UMTS HSPA and don't have issues in high populated areas with smart phones more advanced then once's we have been seeing. They have no issue at all. Why AT&T?

en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

Re: Then why are we still in this situation?

They bought separate spectrum for 3G, and didn't attempt to recycle spectrum as AT&T has been doing.
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wierdo

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Re: Then why are we still in this situation?

said by en102 See Profile :

They bought separate spectrum for 3G, and didn't attempt to recycle spectrum as AT&T has been doing.
That might have something to do with the regulatory agencies in most of the rest of the world allocating a new band in a reasonable timeframe. The AWS auction didn't happen until long after the US carriers had begun their 3G rollouts. And there still are very few AWS-capable devices.

This is one thing you can't blame at&t for. You can blame them for their pricing, and even their network performance, but you can't blame them for the FCC's decisions. (To some degree you can't even blame the FCC..half of our problem in this country with spectrum harmonization is the military)
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said by Chaldo See Profile :

Look at countries in EURO they all run GSM networks, UMTS HSPA and don't have issues in high populated areas with smart phones more advanced then once's we have been seeing. They have no issue at all. Why AT&T?
And you know that how?
Chaldo

join:2008-03-18
West Bloomfield, MI

Re: Then why are we still in this situation?

My cousin took my Blackberry to travel all around Euro and he has had no issues what so ever in countries he was in, he said they had way cooler phones, and his speeds were always fine, signal almost everywhere great call quality. Then here comes AT&T.. I have there wireless service, I have rarely no issues, but I am sick of hearing the complaints.

TKJunkMail
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Re: Then why are we still in this situation?

said by Chaldo See Profile :

My cousin took my Blackberry to travel all around Euro and he has had no issues what so ever in countries he was in, he said they had way cooler phones, and his speeds were always fine, signal almost everywhere great call quality. Then here comes AT&T.. I have there wireless service, I have rarely no issues, but I am sick of hearing the complaints.
A sample of 1 doesn't make a valid statistical comparison of service in the EU and the US.
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Chaldo

join:2008-03-18
West Bloomfield, MI

Re: Then why are we still in this situation?

That's just my cousin, I have a lot of people that live in EU and say they have this carrier, don't have problems there network is a lot faster then the ones here right now. I just heard great things about there GSM networks, and look here what AT&T gets criticized for, it pisses me off and I am still a 10+ year customer of them. My dad just went to NY 4 weeks ago he got so many call failed messages on his phone he couldn't stand it he almost switched to Verizon when he got back, but I don't want him too I can't stand Verizon. This is just my 2 cents.

TKJunkMail
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Re: Then why are we still in this situation?

said by Chaldo See Profile :

That's just my cousin, I have a lot of people that live in EU and say they have this carrier, don't have problems there network is a lot faster then the ones here right now. I just heard great things about there GSM networks, and look here what AT&T gets criticized for, it pisses me off and I am still a 10+ year customer of them. My dad just went to NY 4 weeks ago he got so many call failed messages on his phone he couldn't stand it he almost switched to Verizon when he got back, but I don't want him too I can't stand Verizon. This is just my 2 cents.
I don't dispute at all your contention that AT&T has MANY problems with service in parts of the US. I just doubt that cell phone coverage in some parts of the EU are not as bad(like Poland, Romania, etc.).
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cmaenginsb
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Re: Then why are we still in this situation?

You'd be surprised, I spend a lot of time in Ukraine, in major metro areas wireless is excellent (and they are poorer and less developed than Poland or Romania)
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djrobx

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I'll make it a sample of 2.

Took my iPhone to Sydney, Australia. Unlocked it and put a Telstra SIM in it. I was really impressed by the coverage. I rarely ever saw less than full strength, both inside and outside of the city.

Their customer website really sucked, though.
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Maggs
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Re: Then why are we still in this situation?

said by djrobx See Profile :

I'll make it a sample of 2.

Took my iPhone to Sydney, Australia. Unlocked it and put a Telstra SIM in it. I was really impressed by the coverage. I rarely ever saw less than full strength, both inside and outside of the city.

Their customer website really sucked, though.
Vodafone on the other hand is a clusterfuck down in Sydney, their CS is off on weekends.
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ohreilly

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said by Chaldo See Profile :

signal almost everywhere great call quality.
I live in a fairly rural county in the UK, but there most definitely isn't 3G coverage everywhere - it is very very splotchy.

GSM coverage on the other hand is pretty top-notch. Shame about GPRS (EDGE is only supported by a couple of networks, only one has a rollout worth talking about) though.

Nerdtalker
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said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

said by Chaldo See Profile :

Look at countries in EURO they all run GSM networks, UMTS HSPA and don't have issues in high populated areas with smart phones more advanced then once's we have been seeing. They have no issue at all. Why AT&T?
And you know that how?
Let's turn that around upon yourself now; how many people do you know that have problems in Europe? Have you ever read a single story about people complaining that O2, Vodaphone, T-Mobile (Germany) drops calls constantly, has data that immediately slows to a grind whenever more than 12 people are in a convention center, and generally is all over the place? Because if you have, enlighten me with links. My entire family lives over there, and frankly, they laugh at how pitiful the situation is here in the states.

Let's face it, Europe is years ahead of us when it comes to 3G/HSPA/HSPA+ roll outs. It's almost embarrassing how completely sub par GSM rollouts are (T-Mobile just lit up its 3G network, which is the smallest in the US. AT&T is... AT&T), and CDMA is a dead end bag-of-hurt (I'm glad I jumped ship; being constantly plagued by missing calls when my phone's slot cycle index wasn't set quick enough to poll the 1xRTT network during a data transaction, endless supplies of duplicate SMSes, I could go on and on).

So yeah, Europe has managed to do a pretty good job. But keep in mind, Europe is very urbanized and relatively small in size compared to the relatively huge size of the US. Obviously rolling out lot of 3G GSM-camp coverage is going to take a while. The inexcusable part here is that AT&T is rolling in subscription fees and failing it hard at keeping data flowing for customers.
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1 edit

Milking it for all they can..

IMO, the reason why AT&T has not upgraded their network as quickly and efficiently as we would expect (especially seeing their revenues jump so high thanks to the iPhone) is because they know that when other carriers can start offering the iPhone, customers will switch. In turn, the network congestion on AT&T's network should go down. So to AT&T, why spend all this money to support the current network when there's a really good chance that many users will switch? IMO, AT&T has upgraded their network just enough to make it "stable", but not enough to make it the fastest 3G network in the U.S.

They are milking the iPhone revenue for all they can knowing that the money tree will die one day and they don't want to see all that money "wasted" in a great network.
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james

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Re: Milking it for all they can..

The funny thing is that if they did invest in an amazing network they would likely have kept most of their customers. Now they won't no matter what they do.
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itguy05

join:2005-06-17
Camp Hill, PA

Re: Milking it for all they can..

I doubt any of the US carriers (and that includes Verizon's NOTwork) would have been able to handle the massive (almost overnight) influx of data customers that the iPhone has brought.

After all, just a year or so ago people thought the iPhone would be a huge flop....
Chaldo

join:2008-03-18
West Bloomfield, MI

I disagree, this is just the beginning. There will be a time where you will see Smartphones grow larger in usage then they do now, and it wont be considered "luxury" anymore, it will be a every day life thing. The usage is only going to grow, and they need to deal with that demand. 4G LTE will help a lot with that, but AT&T has to do what it can to get up with the demand, if they don't bad news for them.

Just my 2 cents.
dynodb
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join:2004-04-21
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LOL at the simplemindedness

I always find it hilarious (in a frustrating kind of way) that for any present or future issue, everyone assumes that simply throwing money at it will instantly solve the problem.

Be it new cell towers, trunks, etc- it takes money AND time. There is no telcom vending machine in which you insert $200 million dollars and out drops more broadband capacity.
ezalocusky

join:2009-10-22
Belleville, IL

Re: LOL at the simplemindedness

Yeah, but you would think AT&T would start improving their data service since Apple is planning to sell the iPhone to other U.S. carriers. It would be logical for them to start actually giving a damn about their performance. But, then again, this is the U.S., where every corporation will take advantage of everyone.
dynodb
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Re: LOL at the simplemindedness

said by ezalocusky See Profile :

But, then again, this is the U.S., where every corporation will take advantage of everyone.
Show me on the doll where the big bad corporation touched you.
Freezone

join:2000-09-29
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Re: LOL at the simplemindedness

Can youturn the dollarround and bend it over please sir?

Van
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said by dynodb See Profile :

said by ezalocusky See Profile :

But, then again, this is the U.S., where every corporation will take advantage of everyone.
Show me on the doll where the big bad corporation touched you.
Just show me your wallet and that should do
Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

And I find it hilarious that so many assume doing nothing to increase the capacity of the network will address future bandwidth needs.

Be it backhaul, fiber, and such. There is no telcom out there that wont go to that vending machine to take an extra $200 million in profit instead of improving their networks as much as they should to keep the network growing.

Sure it takes time and money, but you have to invest both of those things for the future and you have to do it at a pace that keeps up with demand, if not surpasses it.
dynodb
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Re: LOL at the simplemindedness

said by Skippy25 See Profile :

And I find it hilarious that so many assume doing nothing to increase the capacity of the network will address future bandwidth needs.
Check their 3rd quarter results- $4.2 billion in capital expenditures this quarter and over $11 billion year to date. It's fair to assume that a signficant amount of that went to wireless expansion and upgrades.
WhatNow
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Re: LOL at the simplemindedness

If this crowd of experts were in upper management would it be the most successful company in the world or bankrupt 12 months from now?

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said by dynodb See Profile :

Be it new cell towers, trunks, etc- it takes money AND time. There is no telcom vending machine in which you insert $200 million dollars and out drops more broadband capacity.
So really the vending machine will gladly take the money, it'll just take a few months for broadband to pop out.

Oh, and in that time, your customers will have simply gone to the cafe across the street and had themselves a latte. A surprisingly apt metaphor for what will happen if AT&T keeps it up.
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funchords
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1 edit

What's going on when you have 8000 ms. pings+zero drops?

See the output in the thread that started it all is here: »www.postel.org/pipermail/end2end···tml#7742 and the rabble-rouser is David P. Reed (a deeply respected network God).


It's interesting -- there's 10 seconds of RTT delay yet not one dropped packet.

Please read the thread for a long list of possible explanations, much too much to sum up here.

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N3OGH
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Re: What's going on when you have 8000 ms. pings+zero drops?

AT&T, your packet, Delivered:
time=9300ms
AT&T, your packet, Delivered:
time=9320ms
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NetFixer
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That is some terrible lag you have in DC. Maybe you should move out into the hinterlands.

Here is a ping to the same host from a bluetooth connection to my cell phone (connected to an AT&T WCDMA 3G tower):


Certainly not as good as my DSL connection, but no 8-10 second delays either.

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funchords
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Re: What's going on when you have 8000 ms. pings+zero drops?

actually, the output in my post was from David Reed in Chicago.

Nerdtalker
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clubs:

I still tend to lend the data credence myself.

As soon as I read "bimodal distribution" I thought "A-Ha! Finally someone who sees the same thing I do!"

Honestly, half the time I see either something between 2-8 seconds, or the (as expected) ~200ms latency.

Something is definitely wonky.
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LineNoise

join:2006-06-25
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backhaul upgrades

I'm not sure where you guys are at, but I know at least in Chicago they're running fiber straight to the tower. I stopped and talked to the 2 guys doing it. Again, not an overnight process, but they are doing something.

By no means is this meant to be taken as a defense for AT&T, I don't like them at all. Just stating facts.

See 8 replies to this post
jimbo2150

join:2004-05-10
Youngstown, OH


1 edit

Lawsuit anyone?

While AT&T's HSDPA network is technically capable of faster speeds than Verizon and Sprint EVDO, it it very often doesn't act that way -- particularly in congested networks like New York City. A recent suite of tests by several news outlets highlighted how AT&T's technically faster network quite often under-performs (see both PC World and Wired tests from earlier this year).
Does this mean I can start a class-action against AT&T for having all those commercials and signs that say "The nation's fastest network" !

lol

p.s. Happy Halloween!
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ezalocusky

join:2009-10-22
Belleville, IL

Re: Lawsuit anyone?

AMEN!!! They should head towards St. Louis. EVERY CALL I MADE GETS DROPPED!!!
dancekat1

join:2009-10-04
Evanston, IL

Related Story...

I had five trucks roll on my apartment on the northside and spent 4 HOURS on a teleconference with the data operations center and line maintenance people because of congested throughput and inability to sustain constant DSL speeds. Even the data operations people at AT&T admitted that the local nodes that all internet traffic went through were all both highly latent and timing out on connections. Further analysis revealed that there was very little buffering going on in the network and my data was being dropped. 5 technicians verified my line connection was good. My network redback had a low load and usage. My port was cut and changed at the CO. In the conference call (again nearly 4 hours long) AT&T basically admitted to me they couldn't manage their network. Funny things is - the guys in data ops saying this aren't used to talking to customers and were quite frank in admitting where the problem seemed to be.

See 7 replies to this post
mobbo

join:2005-04-13
Denton, TX
·Verizon FIOS

AT&T Culture?

I never have a good feeling when I see AT&T is working on capacity, cell towers, backhaul, etc. In my experience, AT&T project managers are incredibly incompetent. Our company's office needed an upgrade of our existing phone system...pretty simple job considering all the equipment was there already. We had missed appointments, lost upgrade equipment, "miscommunications" about when techs needed to be there, flat out missed one Saturday appointment which was my ONE weekend off that month.

Their project structure is incredibly inefficient and redundant. Multiple chains-of-command, VP's all over the place, field supervisors, etc. They finally got our measley phone system installed (half-assed job by the way) after 5 months!!! I'm still cleaning up the piss-poor wiring jobs they did. Boxes left all over the place. They gave us no passwords for maintenance. No phone numbers/acct. #'s for support calls. I finally had to have a damn conference call with some VP just to get that info!!

If the same people are incharge of building out new capacity, towers, etc... I can't imagine the clusterf*** of miscommunication occuring at the moment. It must be EPIC! But they don't care. They're union. They'll get their paycheck.

And they can't "trim" the workforce because they're all union.

See 8 replies to this post
reddy
Premium
join:2008-10-03
Norman, OK
·Cox HSI

Internet freedom act FTW!

It's not that they aren't investing in their network because they think they will lose their customers. They aren't investing in their network because they think they are going to win on net neutrality. Once they control what can be transmitted on their network by law (for the children and freedom) there won't be any congestion.

Enjoy your internet then suckers!

Don't forget, you should welcome bandwidth metering and controls. After all, you wouldn't want the electric company to deliver electricity with a fire hose, why would you want that from your internet provider.
w4ncr

join:2000-10-27


2 edits

Re: Internet freedom act FTW!

Nothing surprises me with this company especially way they are set up their southeast headquarters of the old BellSouth their second headquarters in Texas
And two prices for their DSL Service offerings!
I wish offer their customers same service offering in areas where they operate their DSL
Their last conference call they seem to talk a lot about their metro Ethernet for backhaul to cell site's talk little detail about fiber their cell site's my guess very little fiber Installing to them?
AquaSport
California - Sun, Surf, Traffic Jams

join:2007-05-03
California
·Comcast

Misconfigured? No...

Seems as if they "MisUnderestimated" the data load on their 3G network when the iPhone was launched. You can't use 1 T-1 link for each 3G tower (as i've heard) - that just won't work. AT&T needed to get their ass in gear earlier than they did to avoid problems. Seems like the executives fell asleep in their piles of money before they had the chance to write a note about network upgrades. GRRRRR!!! ~I'm so totally going with verizon next year... I'll get a touchscreen phone and an iPod touch for music.. SCREW YOU AT&T (and your Bay Area network!!!)!!!!
Forums » AT&T: No, We Didn't Misconfigure Our 3G Network


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