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AT&T Invests In Onlive Streaming Gaming
Ironic, given HD gaming will demolish AT&T's proposed caps...
by Karl Bode Wednesday 30-Sep-2009 tags: business · gaming · bandwidth · caps · AT&T
Back in March a company by the name of OnLive unveiled their new broadband gaming service, which aims to replace the traditional game console with what's essentially a broadband-connected dumb terminal. Under the system, which has been proposed in various forums for years now, major title games are completely streamed over your broadband connection -- for a monthly subscription fee.

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Initial demonstrations were on closed networks, and of course everyone wants to see this service in the real world -- where the company admits you'll need to live within 1,000 miles of a data center. For Standard-Definition gaming, OnLive says it needs a 1.5 Mbps connection. For HDTV resolution (720p60), at least 5 Mbps is required.

Earlier this month the company announced they'd entered open beta, and today the company unveiled they've received a third round of funding from a group of companies, including AT&T. It might be the biggest video-game related funding boost this year, and AT&T's instance instantly infuses Onlive with more credibility. At least in the business world -- nobody knows if this service will work as advertised yet.

Of course AT&T's investment is ironic, given they're testing metered billing in two markets, imposing caps between 5-40GB with overages between $1-$1.50 per gig. It's not out of the question that a heavy Onlive HD gamer could blow through a thousand gigabytes a month. As such, you can look at AT&T's caps in two ways: a great way to capitalize on the bandwidth explosion as more data-intensive apps come to market, or a great way to cripple innovation as customers worry about having to take out second mortgages to play Team Fortress 2.

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imanogre

join:2005-11-29
Mcdonough, GA

1 edit

Or you could look at it another way

You could also look at it another way, that they are making a pretty good business decision.... if metered billing doesn't take off then they have diversified by moving into the gaming realm.

Or, if they do offered metered billing, and other carriers don't.... then they have another revenue stream.

Probably a lot more ways to look at it then those Karl. Why is it whenever you give an opinion, I always disagree with it?

Karl Bode
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4 edits

Re: Or you could look at it another way

Why is it whenever you give an opinion, I always disagree with it?
Probably because we disagree.
You could also look at it another way, that they are making a pretty good business decision.... if metered billing doesn't take off then they have diversified by moving into the gaming realm.
Maybe, I think if you read the sentence in my piece you're responding to I'm talking about their caps. Investment in OnLive very well may be a good business decision in and of itself. Assuming it works.

Mr Anon

@k12.il.us

Re: Or you could look at it another way

You also forgot to mention AT&T's recent statement about Video games and Broadband. This seems somewhat contradictory
decifal

join:2007-03-10
Bon Aqua, TN
kudos:1

Re: Or you could look at it another way

said by Mr Anon :

You also forgot to mention AT&T's recent statement about Video games and Broadband. This seems somewhat contradictory
I thought the same thing.. lol.. Wtf are they thinking?

FBGuy
Premium
join:2005-03-19
Evanston, IL

Re: Or you could look at it another way

since when does AT&T think?
decifal

join:2007-03-10
Bon Aqua, TN
kudos:1

Re: Or you could look at it another way

said by FBGuy:

since when does AT&T think?
Hmm, /agreed

Mr Anon

@k12.il.us

Re: Or you could look at it another way

I like ATT but like any company they can be off and wrong. The only thing I can think of is if they can stream the video fairly well and if they can get some type of system like limelight networks going then all ATT has to do is get the looping for controls manageable and the might* MIGHT and I doubt it-but might be able to offer graphic intense games from uverse boxes. The video decoding isn't going to be a problem but the controls would be, if they can pull it off then they would have a nice feather to add in the garden.

swintec
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Looks great...

This idea looks great on paper and may get me back into gaming again (my last console was an N-64, so that shuold give you some perspective!), assuming this works. The speed requirements are fairly similar to Netflix streaming...i wish they picked me to be a beta tester.
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KrK
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Premium
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Tulsa, OK

Onlive Gaming and streaming

While I can see this working for some types of game, namely turn based, puzzles or the like... I just can't see it working very well for action games and games that require good timing (Pretty much any arcade style game). The problem is the latency!

Latency can be bad enough with today's server/client model, and with Onlive, if I understand it right, all the action happens on the server, and your end merely acts like an input terminal.

To me, this seems to make latency far worse, as the data will have to travel to your system, and then you will have to respond with the controls, and your responses travel back to the server, which then must action your responses, and them must sync them with everyone else, then send the result back to your terminal.... etc

It seems like it will double latency problems to me!
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swintec
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Re: Onlive Gaming and streaming

Think of VoIP phone calls though and the tolerance we have for saying something and then waiting for a response. I think this double latency you speak of holds true with the phone calls as well, granted the bandwidth requirements are not the same. My latency to my VoIP provider hovers around 30-40 ms....I wonder if this suffices for this game service as well?
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
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Re: Onlive Gaming and streaming

Imagine a modern FPS.

Now imagine you press controls (move, run, fire, throw grenade, etc whatever)

And there was .5 to .75 second delay before your instruction occurred.

It would be unplayable.
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swintec
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Re: Onlive Gaming and streaming

said by KrK:

And there was .5 to .75 second delay before your instruction occurred.

It would be unplayable.
Well yes, but with those pings (500-750 ms, if my calculations are correct) most any application would be unusable. Those numbers are also not even close to real world. Many people use VoIP and other latency sensitive apps with no issues at 20-40 ms...Would it be playable then?
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wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace

join:2004-08-07
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Re: Onlive Gaming and streaming

said by swintec:

said by KrK:

And there was .5 to .75 second delay before your instruction occurred.

It would be unplayable.
Well yes, but with those pings (500-750 ms, if my calculations are correct) most any application would be unusable. Those numbers are also not even close to real world. Many people use VoIP and other latency sensitive apps with no issues at 20-40 ms...Would it be playable then?
Many people today play FPS games with latency in the realm of 100ms and it works fine. 20ms to 40ms is considered very good.
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wentlanc
You Can't Fix Dumb..

join:2003-07-30
Maineville, OH

Re: Onlive Gaming and streaming

Yes, but you are talking about latency between your console, and the server. That is more than supportable. but we are talking about that latency added between you, and your console. I happen to know that my reaction time on average is about 400ms. If you add another 200ms of latency between the time I hit jump, and I actually jump..... It will be extremely visible, and unacceptable in comparison to a local console.

That is another consideration that many may not be looking at, the competition. This will have to perform, and compete with local consoles. I don't think it will fare well.

cw

wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace

join:2004-08-07
New York, NY

Re: Onlive Gaming and streaming

said by wentlanc:

Yes, but you are talking about latency between your console, and the server. That is more than supportable. but we are talking about that latency added between you, and your console. I happen to know that my reaction time on average is about 400ms. If you add another 200ms of latency between the time I hit jump, and I actually jump..... It will be extremely visible, and unacceptable in comparison to a local console.

That is another consideration that many may not be looking at, the competition. This will have to perform, and compete with local consoles. I don't think it will fare well.

cw
I guess only time will tell.
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KrK
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said by swintec:

Well yes, but with those pings (500-750 ms, if my calculations are correct) most any application would be unusable.
Well, but that's the point. I think ping times of 200ms and up would be unplayable because of the fact it has to go back and forth between terminal and server several times.

I think very fast ping times of 20-40 ms etc would be playable, but would feel a lot more sluggish and laggy then usual because it would act like 80-160 ms connection on a client/sever based game.
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Vchat20
Landing is the REAL challenge
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Re: Onlive Gaming and streaming

I have to agree with this. Also keep in mind it's not just the network latency, but the latency in processing. Such as the server needing to process the video feed, encode it, and send it back to you. That's gonna add some noticeable latency depending on what type of technique they use (high res, high motion video in most games at the speeds they plan on supporting is gonna need some really unique system to make it work)

So even if the network latency between you and their server is only gonna be like 75ms or so, I say add another 75ms on the low side to get the full latency involved.

I await to see this thing go full hog and see how they plan to manage all these little 'aha's' involved.
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swintec
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Re: Onlive Gaming and streaming

said by Vchat20:

I await to see this thing go full hog and see how they plan to manage all these little 'aha's' involved.
One of the ways they are managing it will be there "within 1,000 mile of the servers" requirement.
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skuv

@rr.com

Re: Onlive Gaming and streaming

Being within 1000 miles of where the games are located won't help with video compression/decompression latency. That latency would be there even if you're 10 feet away.

They need to show this outside of a closed network. As far as we know, in their closed and small network test, the video probably wasn't compressed at all.

But if they're going to get down to 1.5mbit for SD and 5mbit for HD, they're going to need some serious compression.

skuv

@rr.com

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There's more than just connection latency involved here. In order to stream the game, you need to compress the video. Compression adds latency, much more than the connection latency, and then there is the decompression on the player's end, adding more latency.

Connection latency is really of no concern here, you can more than play a game with just 30-40ms of latency, even 100ms is probably doable.

But when you add compression and decompression of video, you are talking about a second of latency. And that just won't do for any action oriented game.

manfmmd
Premium
join:2003-01-14
Earth, TX

AT&T

Can we start with upgrading your backbone and last mile please. I'd love to have better than 1.5/384 sometime before 2020.

lordfly

join:2000-10-12
Homestead, FL
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Re: AT&T

said by manfmmd:

Can we start with upgrading your backbone and last mile please. I'd love to have better than 1.5/384 sometime before 2020.
Amen!

Duramax08
Win8 sucks
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1 edit

Re: AT&T

Id love to have better speeds then dial up sometime before 2020.

CptSpaulding

join:2009-07-21
Cincinnati, OH

1 edit

Garbage

Who has a reliable enough connection to play these games? Maybe if your the occasional gamer then you may be ok but if you are a hardcore gamer like my 11 year old, how reliable would this be? Every now and then playing XBOX 360 or PS3 I lag and I have the disc in my console! Streaming a game like Madden 10, COD or GOW would suck! Garbage
Poetique

join:2007-08-05
Birmingham, AL

Re: Garbage

Yeah you hit it on the head there Boiler.

The tech responsible for such services will more than likely die LONG before it takes off.

First of all, your more serious gamers won't even consider it. Even if it's minimal lag, it's still additional lag. That's an absolute hell no for many gamers, including me.

Then there's the fact that we do have so many providers going to this cap nonsense. Charter is implementing a 100 GB cap and I wouldn't even think of streaming more content because of it. I probably average 90-120 GB/month under normal use, streaming something like this is another big hell no.

As a side note to that, I hope the internet service providing industry is prepared to figure out a way to combat the increase in people attempting to steal their neighbor's internet services. What happened when people got sick of CDs being $20? They started pirating them, and now CDs barely sell at $10. People will get sick of these silly caps being imposed, and they'll go around them. Our economy is in no shape to be giving away extra money because of the caps of greedy providers.

Another problem is that even casual gamers wouldn't be pleased by losing their connection while their playing their game, and almost everyone has experienced a random outage at some point. Not to mention your casual gamer crowd is the same crowd most likely to have the bare minimum requirements for using the service in the first place, which means that unless their connection is VERY stable and can consistently hold that bare minimum, they won't go for it either.

My point is, it's too early for this kind of tech.

Until we have minimum broadband standards, much more stable connections (wireless ones especially, because people now tend to HATE wires), and have more people educated on how to adjust the settings in their various home environments to ensure maximum performance out of such a service, it's presently a waste of time.

FBGuy
Premium
join:2005-03-19
Evanston, IL

Re: Garbage

I am still lost how gaming = high bandwidth usage. what percent of your bandwidth usage in a given month do you seriously think is all gaming? if it is greater than 50% then all I can say is wow. just wow.

LightS
Premium
join:2005-12-17
Greenville, TX

Re: Garbage

Well, I think he's saying that THIS in specific would be a lot of BW usage.

He has a 100gb cap. You would need at LEAST a 1.5mb connection..

it all adds up, in the end, considering this is video streaming too.
Poetique

join:2007-08-05
Birmingham, AL
said by FBGuy:

I am still lost how gaming = high bandwidth usage. what percent of your bandwidth usage in a given month do you seriously think is all gaming? if it is greater than 50% then all I can say is wow. just wow.
Even gaming as many of us do now can eat up gigabytes quickly. Playing a game doesn't use up much bandwidth, but if I wasn't planning on hosting games I wouldn't have the 2 MB upload I pay for...

Now hosting games? That'll run through bandwidth real quick.
ender7074

join:2006-11-21
Saint Louis, MO

Idiots

So they expect me to replace my existing consoles with this thing? Sounds just great to me. I can increase my bill by leaps and bounds due to downloading and playing games while not even having those games in high def becasue their worthless DSL service can't deliver more than 3 meg on a 6 meg line to my house. Yah, I'll rush right out for that. /sarcasm Idiots...
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Bootes
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join:2005-01-28
Palo Alto, CA

Re: Idiots

The point is to decrease your bill because you no longer need to buy new consoles or upgrade your computer.

Just because your internet connection sucks, doesn't mean everyone's does.

LightS
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Re: Idiots

and just because your internet connection doesn't suck, doesn't mean everybody else's doesn't :P

I understand WHY this is coming into play.. but this technology shouldn't even begin to be implemented until broadband is not only everywhere, but it's also quicker.
deadzoned
Premium
join:2005-04-13
Baton Rouge, LA

Amazing!

It's pretty amazing how At&t can sound the alarms on the "Bandwidth Apocalypse" and go so far as to run metered broadband trials in 2 cities but then turn around and invest in such a bandwidth intensive service.

You would think, given their past remarks, that they would be scrambling to invest that money in their infrastructure to address that "Bandwidth Crunch" problem that they claim they are facing.

Things that make you wonder....
dlewis23

join:2005-04-18
Boca Raton, FL

Re: Amazing!

said by deadzoned:

It's pretty amazing how At&t can sound the alarms on the "Bandwidth Apocalypse" and go so far as to run metered broadband trials in 2 cities but then turn around and invest in such a bandwidth intensive service.

You would think, given their past remarks, that they would be scrambling to invest that money in their infrastructure to address that "Bandwidth Crunch" problem that they claim they are facing.

Things that make you wonder....
This is something that actually would benefit everyone if AT&T does the right thing. They can use one of there data centers with in there network which would provide in theory a seamless network experience with onlive.

Especially for people on say uverse in old bellsouth land because our ping times are a joke. My ping to google is a 123 ms. That wont make for exactly good onlive gaming. But with the onlive service inside AT&T's network I would have ~30 - 50ms to the server.

As long as they don't charge a premium for the service this is a good thing.

Corehhi

join:2002-01-28
Bluffton, SC

Re: Amazing!

»/linequality/nil/2570292

I'm down south and my line quality has been like this for a week now. Not unusual.

ztmike
Mark for moderation
Premium
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?

quote:
It's not out of the question that a heavy Onlive HD gamer could blow through a thousand gigabytes a month.
Usually I agree with you Karl, but that statement I doubt is true. I would be surprised if it went over Comcasts 250gig/month.
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See 7 replies to this post

Old School

@messagelabs.net

Good for who......

Ahh, remember the old days when Quake was free to play online? Wait, it still is, no? Good Job I.D. Nowadays everyone wants to make a buck on anything and everything and i mean EVERYONE. So, let's say OnLive works great. How much....$5..$10 /mo? Better be that or cheaper or else i just bought an Xbox, Wii, whatever in a little over a year. I haven't read all the details on the games that come w/ your subscription but it better be all of them. Hey wait, what happens when my net goes down? Can i still play? The HD requires what....5mbps. What kinida bandwidth is that gonna eat up. At&t loves that part...hell, they'll prop and promote. Geeesh....So, it's better for who? Consoles suk booty too. I'm not payin $10 extra per title then PC version.
jjeffeory

join:2002-12-04
USA

2 edits

It's okay to break caps if it's THEIR sanctioned service...

at&t says it's okay. There will be no limit to how much bandwidth you can use if it is their service. I mean it's on THEIR network! They control their internet, er, network...

OTOH, Use Xbox live or PSN and you'll hit your cap while they see ca$h register signs! Cha Ching!

See 6 replies to this post

dragoner

@sbcglobal.net

AT&T also has deals with direct tv and they have DOD contend

AT&T also has deals with direct tv and they have DOD content as well and some of them are big 1080P /24 downloads
robertg1234

join:2004-04-19
Palo Alto, CA

Perlman is no idiot!

I'm sure (Steve) Perlman has thought of latency, lag, consumer response, etc. He's been there and done that too many times now. He has a ton of buddies in the industry that always follow him everywhere he goes. And I mean *top notch* buddies who are technically as smart as Perlman himself. I mean, this is one of the original devs of Quicktime, with a few dozen patents to prove!

His biggest challenge is strictly business and political, like getting the game co's to license and -- as you are seeing -- getting the broadband providers to provide unencumbered passage. He's got enough game companies to come onboard to start at least. Now he needs to make sure he doesn't get blocked (or at the very least throttled) getting to his STB's. He knows that will kill his biz faster than any of the game licensee's extorting more money as OnLive takes off.

I *know* he's talking to the others -- TWC, Comcast, Verizon, etc. I know it, and this AT&T deal confirms that he is.

ShadowMastr
Master Of All Shadows

join:2001-09-01
Fort Pierce, FL

can you say 'subsidize' anyone??

AT&T and any other provider who gets involved will probably create a new 'Gamers Tier' with no or much higher cap, as well as a nice hefty monthly price tag for the pleasure of playing online with semi laggy games and hyperactive teens.......

Someone mentioned Quake..... there is Quake Live now that is mostly browser based and streamed to the players, it wasn't too bad when I was playing it.... they do download some stuff to your system, like the anti cheating and browser plug in stuff.... totally playable with a decent connection....
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Ya Mon

@pacbell.net

It Could Be Higher...

If you look at the article you will see at LEAST 5Mbps is required for 720p, if your on Comcast your speed is probably much higher than that, meaning OnLive will probably use even more bandwidth. 250gig/month? You could break that by playing 3 hours or less a day.

cpsycho

join:2008-06-03
HarperLand

HAHAHA

Firstly... This will be marketed to gamers, and it will fail. No gamer would buy this crap. Then all those poor people who actually bought it and then they buy games, company goes under due to failure. You lose everything.
heidi4

join:2009-10-01

Onlive Streaming Gaming

It would be a big savings if this thing happens, imagine you don't have to buy those consoles just to play a specific game designed on each console. And if there's a chance of playing Aion Online through TV then it's much better because the screen is much bigger and you'll surely enjoy collecting aion gold with your friends.

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