republican-creole
Search:  

 
 
   News
newer
story category AT&T Backbone Sees 20% P2P Drop
Hulu, YouTube and other alternative video 'taking over'
12:57PM Thursday Jul 31 2008 by Karl Bode
tags: prices · business · bandwidth · telco · networking · AT&T U-Verse
Industry analyst Dave Burstein has an interesting (but margin blown) post over at the interesting people listserv discussing the reality of congestion (or lack thereof) on AT&T's network. While industry lobbyists use P2P congestion as a bogeyman to justify all manner of policy, AT&T data suggests P2P is actually declining on AT&T's network. Upstream P2P on cable networks remains a capacity problem, but it's one that may be resolved by a migration to DOCSIS 3.0. Burstein suggests the debate over throttling is all but dead:
Easily a third of AT&T's downstream traffic is now "web audio-video," far more than p2p and the gap is widening rapidly. Hulu and YouTube are taking over, while p2p is fading away on DSL networks. One likely result is that managing traffic by shaping p2p is of limited and declining use, perhaps buying a network 6 months or a year before needing an upgrade. The p2p traffic shaping debate should be almost over, because it simply won't work very much longer.
AT&T writes off that decline in P2P use as a statistical anomaly created by a heavy mix of new customers who don't use P2P. Still, it suggests that P2P isn't quite the network demon it's often painted as. AT&T says that as of June, AT&T traffic was about 1/3 Web (non video/audio streams), 1/3 Web video/audio streams, and 1/5 P2P. Most interestingly, Burstein suggests that capacity upgrades should more than handle growth, without throttling or raising capex, while actually lowering AT&T's per bit cost per user. On upgrades:
AT&T has sensible plans to handle the load without disruption. They are already moving from 10 gig to 40 gig in the core, and planning a transition to 100 gig in a few years. The current projections are they can do these upgrades without raising capex, bringing per bit costs down along a Moore's Law curve and keeping bandwidth costs per user essentially unchanged.
So if the capacity costs of keeping pace with demand are nominal, does that still make AT&T's push into metered billing "inevitable?" One gets the feeling that there's no greater chasm than the one between a lobbyist and network engineer describing the same network.

Related:
  1. Wednesday Evening Links
  2. AT&T's New 18Mbps U-Verse Tier
  3. Friday Evening Links
  4. AT&T Gets Some Backbone
  5. User Impressions Of AT&T's New 18Mbps U-Verse Tier
  6. Verizon DSL Customers Getting Free Upgrades
  7. Backbone Analysis Puts Exaflood Myth To Bed
  8. Verizon's Open Development Initiative? So Far It's A Joke
Forums » AT&T Backbone Sees 20% P2P Drop
view: topics flat text 
Post a:
moonpuppy

join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL

Most new people do not know about P2P

Had a friend of mine that was the same way.

He heard of something called Kazaa but had no idea what it was. I tried to explain to him what P2P was and he was still in the dark. All he knew was he could get music and porn.

He knew nothing about the newsgroups until another friend of ours told him about it. He still did not understand what was behind it.

Most people are going to go to these other sites because it is easier. That's the only reason.
jester121

join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL

Re: Most new people do not know about P2P

Plus it's been a slow month for Linux kernel updates.
cybercrimes

join:2003-12-24
Phoenixville, PA

Just Upgrade

alot of isp's just dont want to spend the time and money to
upgrade there pipes and server to handle the load of users

espaeth
Misanthrope
Premium
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
·voip.ms
·Callcentric
·VoiceStick
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
·Embarq

Re: Just Upgrade

said by cybercrimes See Profile :

alot of isp's just dont want to spend the time and money to
upgrade there pipes and server to handle the load of users
That's not entirely accurate. Many ISPs are waiting for improvements in their delivery technology of choice (*DSL, DOCSIS) to turn into product so they can upgrade their network. You cannot add capacity using product that doesn't exist.

Zeke

@prioritynetworks.net

hmmmm

Do they still have the same amount of overall backbone traffic or is that declining? Maybe they are just dropping in bandwidth or customers.
axus

join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Cox HSI

Re: hmmmm

Yeah, I wondered that. The data is shown as percentages (well, fractions). Has the total amount of traffic increased while the P2P traffic remained the same? Or has P2P usage actually gone down? Maybe the pirates have downloaded everything they wanted already ;p
deadzoned
Premium
join:2005-04-13
Baton Rouge, LA
·Cox HSI


edit:
July 31st, @01:24PM

Excuses, Excuses

That's all this stuff is because the real issue with the broadband providers is NOT about bandwidth capacity as they are saying it's really about CONTROL and nothing else. They seek more control over their network and the way to assume that control and assert it is through stuff like Bandwidth Caps, Metered Billing, Throttling, etc... It's really all part of their plans to have more control.

There is no "Bandwidth Apocalypse" due to P2P, Piracy, or any other bogeyman they may trot out. It's simply mis-direction plain and simple.

insomniac84

join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN

Re: Excuses, Excuses

It's all about needing to keep profits always increasing to keep investors happy. When you can't rely on new customers to bring in extra profits, your only option is to milk existing customers to make up the gap.

ninjatutle
You can keep the "change"

join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA

This is alarming

20% of all traffic consist of illegal activity.

All those users lost to Comcast must be the heavy users. Good news for the rest of the legit users.

aciddrink

join:2000-08-26
Kailua, HI

Re: This is alarming

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

20% of all traffic consist of illegal activity.
90% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA

Re: This is alarming

said by aciddrink See Profile :

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

20% of all traffic consist of illegal activity.
90% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
and 50% of users pull numbers out of their ass without posting links to their claims.
--
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people.
cornelius785

join:2006-10-26
Worcester, MA

Re: This is alarming

with 98% confidence that 90% of the people reading will believe it

avd706
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Great Neck, NY

There are

There are lies, dammed lies and statistics...

backfeed
is giving feedback

join:2002-12-16
Peru, IN

Re: There are

Mark Twain??

NetAdmin

join:2008-05-22

Re: There are

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damn···atistics

Benjamin Disraeli... Someone who obviously failed stats.
--
---
Eleven years of carrying The Clue Bat...

ninjatutle
You can keep the "change"

join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA
·AT&T U-Verse


edit:
July 31st, @01:28PM

Re: This is alarming

said by hopeflicker See Profile :

said by aciddrink See Profile :

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

20% of all traffic consist of illegal activity.
90% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
and 50% of users pull numbers out of their ass without posting links to their claims.
RTFA

"about 1/3 Web (non video/audio streams), 1/3 Web video/audio streams, and 1/5 P2P."

hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA

Re: This is alarming

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

RTFA

"about 1/3 Web (non video/audio streams), 1/3 Web video/audio streams, and 1/5 P2P."
And you believe what they say?
--
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people.

ninjatutle
You can keep the "change"

join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA

edit:
July 31st, @04:43PM

Re: This is alarming

IDK, ask Karl Bode See Profile, he was the person who posted it. Why don't you question his character?

hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA

Re: This is alarming

Ummm, ATT claims this:

AT&T says that as of June, AT&T traffic was about 1/3 Web (non video/audio streams), 1/3 Web video/audio streams, and 1/5 P2P.

so i ask again, do you believe this?
--
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people.

ninjatutle
You can keep the "change"

join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA
·AT&T U-Verse

Re: This is alarming

Again, I will refer you to Mr. Karl Bode See Profile if you feel his reporting is inadequate or the integrity of his linked reports are inaccurate.

This is going in circles.....

FLengineer
Premium
join:2007-06-26

edit:
July 31st, @01:55PM

That sounds about right to me. But, I'm lost in the convo here, are you saying that P2P = illegal?

EDIT: Question is to ninjatutle

ninjatutle
You can keep the "change"

join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA
·AT&T U-Verse


edit:
July 31st, @02:14PM

Re: This is alarming

I'm not buying the endless Linux disto downloads, World Of War patches and home movies to grandmother so yes, ILLEGAL material is being passed.

You know very well as with everyone here, what P2P is mainly used for.

EDIT: Reply to Flenginear
pspcrazy

join:2008-02-06
San Diego, CA
·DSL EXTREME

Re: This is alarming

Well what about Anime which is around 95 percent of my bittorrent downloads. Do you consider those illegal? Anime companies in the U.S can't touch anything other then the ones they licensed. They are not illegal unless licensed in the u.s thus not making them illegal. Then again each anime fan has his own idea on it.
axus

join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Cox HSI

Re: This is alarming

Actually I believe we have some treaties with other countries protecting each others' copyrights:

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pa···treaties

The anime companies just don't have an RIAA running around suing people and spreading the word that there's free stuff on the 'net. Probably to their benefit!
TheWizardhfl

join:2004-08-05

See, you are a little misguided there. Anime when produced in japan is internationally copyrighted. And yes, they have pursued methods to put an end to some of the distribution. Media Factory Inc. is well known for their issuing of C&D orders to anime "fansubbers" and Bandai has issued warnings publicly in the past regarding specific title releases.. For the most part, anime fansubs tend to rest in a gray area. The majority of production companies simply choose to overlook the issue for various reasons ranging from lack of resources to fear of alienating their consumer base.

When an anime is licensed in the US, the most notable change in regards to the topic is that the US company who licensed the title locally has the right to file C&D orders and lawsuits against anyone distributing unauthorized releases of their titles online.

It's not about who has their own idea on the matter or not. It's a matter of it's still illegal either way. The only difference is who has the right to pursue the matter legally.

FLengineer
Premium
join:2007-06-26
·T-Mobile US
·Comcast
·Embarq
·Vonage


edit:
July 31st, @03:20PM

P2P = Illegal ??

Yes some of it is, some of it isn't. I bet you also think all Muslims are terrorist, too.

»www.bittorrent.com/
»revision3.com/
»beta.legaltorrents.com/
May Fav »torrentfreak.com/sundance-winner···torrent/
That's a good movie and was released on P2P by the producers.

You say all P2P is Illegal, I just provided proof that P2P is NOT Illegal. Revise your statement to Sharing Copyrighted material VIA P2P is Illegal.

EDIT: You mentioned World of Warcraft being insignificant.
2.5M players in North America.
2.4.0 patch distributed via P2P a week in advance was 256.11MB
That's 91.5TB A DAY

Dogfather
Altitude is your friend
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA
·Cox HSI
·MegaPath
·Verizon FIOS
·Cox VOIP
·Verizon west (ex G..
·ViaTalk
·Time Warner VOIP
·RoadRunner Cable

Re: This is alarming

Take one look at what the top search results are on BT search engines and you'll see that the mass of traffic is illegal. And so what if it is. Before BT it was Kazaa, before that Napster, before that Usenet...and after BT it will be something else.

The ISPs and content creators will NEVER defeat piracy and in their efforts all they do is piss off legit users of their services or products.

Matt
You can't fix stupid
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
·Corporate Colocation

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

You know very well as with everyone here, what P2P is mainly used for.
That is an unreasonable, tiresome, non-factual based argument. We all ASSUME we know what it is being used for. Just like up until this article was posted, you probably would have ASSUMED that P2P was the majority of internet traffic.

Until a study is done that proves that the majority of P2P traffic is illegal, I simply can't believe it and spewing the corporate line based on an assumption with no factual basis is asinine.

Too many other legit services use P2P. Hell, I just downloaded about 7GB of WoW downloads this past weekend for my neighbor via P2P.

The FACT that P2P use is declining while YouTube and Hulu (non-P2P video based distribution methods, just like Netflix online) are rising would lead one to believe that P2P video distribution services like Joost are losing viewers. Hulu is a much better product than Joost and the other P2P TV distributors.
nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

...
You know very well as with everyone here, what P2P is mainly used for.
Well, that's the "conventional wisdom" that the media companies and ILECs have been able to push into place. I have never seen any data to back this up, but if you scream something loud enough over and over and over, it can't help but sink into the consciousness of those not paying much attention (like the press, congress and 98% of the public).

and now there is evidence (although not trusted because it goes against the "conventional wisdom") that P2P use is declining - woe unto the ISPs! what will they use to scare us about bandwidth scarcity now?

ssj4android
Redefining Reality

join:2002-04-14
Wyoming, MI
What is counted as "peer to peer" traffic though? I'd think a majority of online gaming traffic is peer to peer, and that certainly isn't illegal.

ninjatutle
You can keep the "change"

join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA

Re: This is alarming

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer-to-peer
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_server

funchords
Robb Topolski
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Hillsboro, OR
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
·Comcast

said by ssj4android See Profile :

What is counted as "peer to peer" traffic though? I'd think a majority of online gaming traffic is peer to peer, and that certainly isn't illegal.
I'm not sure what ninja was intending to communicate. Peer-to-peer is an architecture, another common architecture is client-server. Many IM and chat clients, online games, and VOIP applications make peer-to-peer connections.

Peer-to-peer is also often a verbal abbreviation of "Peer-to-peer file sharing." I think the statistics of 1/5th being P2P probably refers only to file sharing. The devices that measure such things don't really check to see if an end point is a server, instead they actually sniff the packets as they go by and figure out what known application protocols are being used within them.

So your gaming traffic is probably not included in the statistic, regardless if the architecture is peer-to-peer or client-server. If your game uses BitTorrent to do its updates, then only that part is counted in the "P2P" column and the rest of the data (move, aim, fire, character) would not be.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
More fun, more features, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...

Reck Havoc
Premium
join:2002-07-31
Grand Rapids, MI

said by ssj4android See Profile :

What is counted as "peer to peer" traffic though? I'd think a majority of online gaming traffic is peer to peer, and that certainly isn't illegal.
Right, little ninja buddy thought it'd be clever to link wiki articles.. But he forgets fact, as seen through all his posts.

The entire Xbox 360 and most of the PS3 online games use a P2P network, where either one person is actually hosting the server, or where it's split between all the users upload equally.
--
AMD Athlon 64 FX-53, 1GB Corsair XMS Dual Channel PC-4400 DDR,NVIDIA GeForce 6800 Ultra 256MB, 160GB Seagate SATA - RAID 0, Windows XP Pro

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
·Site5.com
·AT&T Midwest
·Comcast

Re: This is alarming

said by Reck Havoc See Profile :

said by ssj4android See Profile :

What is counted as "peer to peer" traffic though? I'd think a majority of online gaming traffic is peer to peer, and that certainly isn't illegal.
Right, little ninja buddy thought it'd be clever to link wiki articles.. But he forgets fact, as seen through all his posts.

The entire Xbox 360 and most of the PS3 online games use a P2P network, where either one person is actually hosting the server, or where it's split between all the users upload equally.
Link? Source?

ssj4android
Redefining Reality

join:2002-04-14
Wyoming, MI


edit:
August 1st, @04:57PM

Yeah, that's what I was referring to. Wii as well, which is the only system I've captured traffic for. Brawl seems to have one main game server, but in a three player game each player sends UDP packets to the other two.
Indeed, most P2P file transfer applications use TCP, which is connection based and requires one node to be a server while the other is a client. Gaming usually uses UDP, which seems more like a "peer to peer" transport protocol to me, but does often use at least temporary host servers. In games like Halo 3, all peers maintain enough state information to become the host if the current one drops out. AFAIK, voice communication on Xbox LIVE is direct from one peer to all others.

There's also programs such as Joost. What is that counted as?

funchords
Robb Topolski
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Hillsboro, OR
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
·Comcast


edit:
August 1st, @05:32PM

Re: This is alarming

said by ssj4android See Profile :

most P2P file transfer applications use TCP, which [...] requires one node to be a server while the other is a client.
I'm not sure what you mean here, but either way I work it out its inaccurate. TCP doesn't require one side to be server and the other to be client, and the very definition of P2P means that there is no server and no client. It may be a distinction without a difference, but it hit me funny.
Gaming usually uses UDP, which seems more like a "peer to peer" transport protocol to me,
Also, a case where one UDP has nothing to do with the P2P nature.

Think of TCP and UDP as languages.
TCP has already worked out rules of etiquette about who says what under what conditions, when to ask for information to repeated, and how to say hello and goodbye. TCP is fine for most uses, but sometimes it lack features you want or in the case of streaming video, it has features that you don't need.

UDP is a much looser language, where the UDP "syllables" can be used to create exactly the languages that you want. You can have the connectedness stateful nature of TCP without the retransmission request for a 10% bad packet, for example.
Think of P2P or client-server as military ranks.
At some level, all hosts on the internet are peers but some peers have a central function -- e.g. they serve web pages, or answer file-transfer requests, or respond to other queries. These hosts are servers (masters) and the hosts that connect to them are clients (supplicants). That architecture is client-server. In a client-server arrangement, clients only connect through servers who arrange all of the processing and other communication. You have to follow the chain of command.

In a peer-to-peer architecture, there is no hierarchy. End-hosts communicate with other end-hosts directly and no central device is required. If there are communal processing tasks to be performed, this work is generally distributed among the peers somehow. There is no hierarchy.
I hope that helps.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
More fun, more features, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...

ssj4android
Redefining Reality

join:2002-04-14
Wyoming, MI

Re: This is alarming

I know how TCP and UDP work, I just don't know what to consider a "server" (I like precise definitions).
My logic is TCP requires one node (the server) to listen for a connection and another node (the client) to initiate the connection. But perhaps that's a faulty definition, as which node was the listening one is irrelevant in, say, bittorrent.
The purest example of a p2p paradigm I can think of is a multicast chat program, where one node doesn't know and doesn't care how many other nodes are on the network.

funchords
Robb Topolski
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Hillsboro, OR
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
·Comcast

Re: This is alarming

said by ssj4android See Profile :

I know how TCP and UDP work, I just don't know what to consider a "server" (I like precise definitions).
My logic is TCP requires one node (the server) to listen for a connection and another node (the client) to initiate the connection. But perhaps that's a faulty definition, as which node was the listening one is irrelevant in, say, bittorrent.
The purest example of a p2p paradigm I can think of is a multicast chat program, where one node doesn't know and doesn't care how many other nodes are on the network.
You are observing that most servers listen for incoming connections -- but that's common, not definitive. Who makes the connection and who listens is more of a function of how the end-points set up the communication channel, but client-server has more to do with centralization of actual work or resources.

To illustrate that it's the processing that is the chief consideration, consider the X-Server which connects outbound to X-client programs but since the terminal does the graphics processing, it is the server to the client applicaitons.

Here's one definition: »www.sei.cmu.edu/str/descriptions···ver.html
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
More fun, more features, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...
nocannothave

join:2006-10-14
Kennewick, WA
Of course illegal material is being passed.

So are concerts of taping/trading friendly bands, tv shows, etc.

So, 20% is not illegal. 20% is p2p. That's all you can say.

Amadeus
Premium
join:2005-05-02
Miami, FL
I do. I think all the ppl that used p2p on dsl networks changed over to other isp's like comcast, verizon and etc because the speeds. ATT dsl doesn't have speed
--
Think Ahead. Learn More. Solve Now!
dentman42

join:2001-10-02
Columbus, OH
·AT&T Midwest

Re: This is alarming

said by Amadeus See Profile :

I do. I think all the ppl that used p2p on dsl networks changed over to other isp's like comcast, verizon and etc because the speeds. ATT dsl doesn't have speed
I have better bandwidth on my AT&T DSL than on my Road Runner. Even the top RR tier here only matches AT&T's Elite tier's upstream of 768k. I'm not going to pay $10 more per month for only 256k more upstream on RR.

FLengineer
Premium
join:2007-06-26

Re: This is alarming

DSL vs. Cable is completely subjective to not only your market but your particular street.

ptrowski
Got Helix?
Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
clubs:
·Metrocast Communic..
·AT&T DSL Service
·VOIPo
·ViaTalk

said by ninjatutle See Profile :

RTFA

"about 1/3 Web (non video/audio streams), 1/3 Web video/audio streams, and 1/5 P2P."
You RTFA, is says P2P, not illegal activity. But your trolling once again is easily noticed.

See 21 replies to this post
bjbrock

join:2002-10-28
Mcalester, OK
Not all p2p traffic is illegal. A lot of it is legitimate file sharing. So your assumption is wrong and your numbers are wrong.
pspcrazy

join:2008-02-06
San Diego, CA
With 100 percent confidence the post below me will be asking for another percentage.