 2farfromCO7
join:2000-10-14
Farmington, MI
| If they don't expand the availability it doesn't m atter. I think I even said 1-2 months ago that $25/month wouldn't matter. Unless they are WILLING TO TAKE THE RISK TO DEPLOY 384k DSL ON THE NETWORK "AS IS" up to 18000ft regardless of the speed the user ends up connecting at, it won't make a difference. I WILL GUARANTEE YOU THAT 100%(and not one person less) of all potential customers that would even consider DSL are already signed up. If they didn't sign up at $29.95, will $29.95 change anything? NO CHANCE. They need to offer $24.95 all the way to 18000ft AS IS and simply make no guarantees. | |
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 | 2farfromCO7
join:2000-10-14
Farmington, MI
| Why does it have to be "Always on"? Why can't it be "almost always on" or ABSOLUTELY NO GUARANTEES OF PERFECT SERVICE? If you don't like these terms, don't order. However if you agree, there will be absolutely NO REFUNDS OFFERED for service that is up and running say over 66% of the time. BEGGARS CAN'T BE CHOOSERS. That is the only strategy that the RBOCs can use that will beat cable. ANYTHING ELSE WILL FAIL. AVAILABILITY NOW AND NOT 5 MINUTES LATER IS THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS. I AM RIGHT AND EVERYBODY ELSE THAT DISAGREES IS WRONG. | |
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just1morejoker
@attbi.com
| Re: Why does it have to be "Always on"? if you read through most ISP agreements when it comes to DSL. they have a best effort clause in it. that is because they cant guarantee always on or speeds due to veriables that are out of their control. though, most people dont take the time to read those agreements. and then call in and throw a fit because they dont have what they believe they should have.. just a point. Earthlink's Home DSL agreement states that they can not promise speeds or no loss/time down. but many of the calls that came in when i worked for them was just that. my DSL was down for 1 hour and i want credits for that time down. sorry guys, but 68 cents is not alot to cry over and it doesnt make that big of a deal when it comes to the end. need to work on getting the phone companies to stabalize the type of line wires they are running and maybe even have your landlords upgrade the wiring in your house/apt before trying for DSL. your best bet is to go cable. less hassles, and easier to maintain. though you will still have times that you will have various problems due to different things. thus, with High speed. you want guarantees. do what buisinesses do. they purchase Business DSL and then they have the guarantees for speed and connections or they get paid down time. otherwise, doont complain at all | |
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| gtidsl
join:2000-07-29
Morristown, NJ | Re: If they don't expand the availability it doesn't m Sounds like someone is at 18000 feet.... | |
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MPScan
Premium
join:2001-08-24
Boston, MA | I don't see what would be so hard about this.
By design, ADSL service is meant to be capable of providing service to 18,000 ft at a speed of 1500kbps. | |
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| | 2farfromCO7
join:2000-10-14
Farmington, MI
| Re: If they don't expand the availability it doesn't m Beggars can't be choosers. If you are over 12000ft you get 384k with no refunds for downtime as long as your service is up 66% of the time. Take it or leave it. Just provide the service as is. Test the line(FOR REAL!!! NOT JUST TYPING THE ADDRESS INTO A DISTANCE CALCULATOR), if it can take 384 AT ALL, you offer it under those conditions. You don't like the conditions don't sign up. Beggars can't be choosers. | |
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| | | Frohike
Premium
join:2000-07-23
Waxahachie, TX
| The reason RBOCs don't offer service upto 18k, regulations. RBOCs are regulated to maintain certain satisfaction. After 16k, the chances of maintaining good customer satisfaction dramatically drops (signal degradation is dramatic). SBC use to offer DSL upto 17500ft but had to drop it down to 14k due to falling below the satisfaction level. Then SBC later upped it to 16k guaranteeing only 192kps at that length. As time moves on and more technology comes available to strengthen the DSL signal from the CO, then the loop length will get longer.
FYI-Non-regulated entities like Covad etc, arn't under the same service restrictions as RBOCs.
[text was edited by author 2003-05-05 14:12:52] | |
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| | | | 2farfromCO7
join:2000-10-14
Farmington, MI | Re: If they don't expand the availability it doesn't m This is why I always say that DSL is LESS AVAILABLE TODAY than it was 3 years ago, especially since RT deployment has completely halted. | |
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| | | | rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO
 ·Charter Pipeline
| Thank God for regulations. In my opinion what some propose is ridiculous and desperate.
Gee, you're too far for water service so sometimes you can take a shower, other times you'll have to stink it out. Take what you get and don't complain or don't get water!
Would anyone in their right mind want to knowingly sell a product with that marketing slogan? Imagine the cable company counter ads.
"Tired of your you might be up today DSL service..." In my opinion, broadband is an idea encompassing affordable, high-speed, always on, reliable communications to the masses. Only when it's as reliable and available as the common dial tone will it lead to other pervasive technologies. Right now the cable companies have a huge advantage because they can offer availability that makes DSL look like bad technology. If cable can increases the consistency of their service, it's over for DSL unless the RBOCs slap themselves, snort some coffee and continue expanding their coverage areas.
I think DSL has a key advantage in that cable is bandwidth limited on the up side. If the DSL providers could start offering more symmetrical services for the same price, they would attract a lot of interest. Unfortunately they still have to increase their coverage and say goodbye to their worries that high-speed DSL upstream speeds will cause businesses to eliminate their dedicated T1 circuits. That's like walking to the plate with two strikes -- it'll never happen! | |
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| | | | | | corrosive23
join:2002-06-06
Yucaipa, CA | Re: If you have a choice, choose cable. Nope, the only coax in my house comes from the dish network dish, to the reciever, other than that, screw cable companies, pay 50+ a month for 1/3 less channels. | |
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| | | | | | 2farfromCO7
join:2000-10-14
Farmington, MI | I don't see "distrust" as being the differentiating factor. People distrust both cable and telco monopolies. Debating which is worse is like debating who is worse: Saddam or Osama? | |
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| | | | | | Frohike
Premium
join:2000-07-23
Waxahachie, TX
| said by fancydancer  :
Everyone watches cable TV, right? So why not make a "too good to refuse" combo package?
Thats a big assumption, which is wrong. I have Dish, cheaper and more channels. Once I got rid of cable internet, cable TV went with it. Paying almost 60 bucks for cable TV and another 30 for cable. Dish is cheaper and DSL is same with rock solid bandwidth, no more wondering what my speed will be when I surf, 4000kps 1 minute, 200kps the next. No thanks  . | |
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fancydancer
Perception is reality
Premium
join:2002-08-28
Springfield, IL
clubs:
·Comcast
·Insight Communicat..
|  Re: If you have a choice, choose cable.
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| | | | | | jungleman406
join:2003-04-22
Highland Park, MI
| I respect your opinion but you are being cheated, you said it yourself cable don't allow it's customers the opportunity of sharing their bandwidth with out digging deeper in your pockets. I personally have DSL and I love it I have it networked and it runs beautifully. I didn't have to use SBC's equipment but I am going wireless soon so I will give them a try. I think you should give your local phone company another chance you might like the response you get.. | |
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ComputerGod
join:2002-10-13
Marietta, GA
| Re: If they don't expand the availability it doesn't m said by rradina :
Only when it's as reliable and available as the common dial tone will it lead to other pervasive technologies.
It took quite a while for the dial tone to be as reliable as it it today. I think that DSL is getting there. In the past 4 years I've seen provisioning times go down from months to days, ranges extended greatly, and arguably better quality. We'll get there...one day. | |
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gnucleus7
Number 3 Forever
join:2002-06-06
NASCAR | yeah right, If you don't have 5kft of bridge tap or 3 load coils.........
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Earnhardt wins! WooooHooo!!!!! | |
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Orwell 1984
@rr.com
| A study quoted in DSLR A couple of weeks ago indicated that 95% of American households have broadband available. I don't recall the adoption rate but believe it was under 20%.What information is available to me indicates that a higher adoption rate is going to be required before any significant network expansion will be practicle. | |
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| | 2farfromCO7
join:2000-10-14
Farmington, MI | Re: If they don't expand the availability it doesn't m That probably includes ISDN and satellite. There's no way that 95% of American households have cable modems or DSL available. DSL availability is way under 50% for the entire nation. | |
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gnucleus7
Number 3 Forever
join:2002-06-06
NASCAR | Did you ever think of moving closer to the co?
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Earnhardt wins! WooooHooo!!!!! | |
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| Frohike
Premium
join:2000-07-23
Waxahachie, TX
| Its all good. I just had the exact opposite experience with cable. Black outs on cable and horrible customer service. Weather affected the signal severely. It was with Charter Comm, which is under investigation here in local Dallas area for poor service . | |
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saber11
Check Six
Premium
join:2000-06-09
Clayton, OH
| Re: joy said by morbo :
price war = good for us. 
let the blood letting begin!
Not if they do what Roadrunner is doing, imposing a 15gig a month cap on combined uploads and downloads with a $12.50 surcharge for every 5gig over.
Sure they may lower the prices, but the capman cometh bringing higher fees.
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Just when you thought it was safe to get back in the gene pool. | |
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saber11
Check Six
Premium
join:2000-06-09
Clayton, OH
| Re: joy said by morbo :
is dsl an option for you? no caps at all, and no slowdowns like cable. vote with your $
Nope, crappy phone lines where I live no DSL I already tried that route.
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Just when you thought it was safe to get back in the gene pool. | |
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Hall
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-28
Dayton, OH | DSL will have bandwidth caps someday... It's inevitable. | |
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| | | | lujohnson
N 0 E Q P
join:2002-08-08
Agoura Hills, CA | Re: joy I checked.... no caps. | |
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detth
Onemhz On Aim
join:2000-10-06
Astoria, NY | Re: joy get speakeasy-
$89/month for 1.5/384
they dont care what you do - servers 24.7 , host hard core porn sites, whatever. | |
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| | | | | | robscullion
Premium
join:2001-12-07
Philadelphia, PA
 ·Speakeasy
| Re: joy I don't know if that's strictly true. From the SE TOS:
quote:
Speakeasy believes in the right of the individual to publish information they feel is important to the world via the Internet. Unlike many ISP's, Speakeasy allows customers to run servers (web, mail, etc.) over their Internet connections, use hubs, and share networks in multiple locations. Any service that causes a disruption in the network integrity of Speakeasy or its vendors, whether directly or indirectly, is strictly prohibited and could result in termination of service. This may include but is not limited to: IRC servers, adult-content servers, bots, webpages hosted on any Speakeasy servers, servers connected to a Speakeasy provided Internet connection, or shared networks. Speakeasy reserves the right to modify or terminate services at our sole discretion.
When I bought my service they pretty much told me "Run whatever servers you want, but if you use up to much bandwidth we'll ask you to stop or move to a business class connection." Of course, it's great that they explicitly allow servers in the first place, but it's not quite the unlimited service I thought it'd be when I first stumbled upon them. | |
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inciter
Noobie
Premium
join:2000-08-30
Rohnert Park, CA
| said by detth :
get speakeasy-
$89/month for 1.5/384
they don't care what you do - servers 24.7 , host hard core porn sites, whatever.
Why? I now get 1.5/128 for only $29.month was $49 with SBC I think "most" don't care about upstream. Ouch $89/month thats steep I hope your making money from your upstream.
Thanks for the Price cut!
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A SUCKER is born every min. On the Internet a SUCKER is born every Sec. | |
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ComputerGod
join:2002-10-13
Marietta, GA | The easiest way to increase profit is to cut network costs...and fire people. | |
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dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
| said by Hall :
DSL will have bandwidth caps someday... It's inevitable.
Caps are the new moneymaker. i totally agree with you.
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You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth | |
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dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ | DSL has slowdowns just like cable. at least my 640/272 Qwest dsl did everynight at primetime slowing to slower than dialup speeds.
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You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth | |
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stickside
join:2000-11-10
Worcester, MA
| said by dvd536 :
DSL has slowdowns just like cable. at least my 640/272 Qwest dsl did everynight at primetime slowing to slower than dialup speeds.
I've been with Verizon's 1500/128 package for nearly 2 years now, and I've never experienced ANY throughput problems that cable subscribers get. My speeds have been consistent since I've had the service, in fact according to tests on this site, my speeds are usually 1508/136 regularly, and occasionally down to 1497/136. | |
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| | | | tempman
join:2003-04-30
Tarrytown, NY | I think your telling a tale, you line to the co, is your own and not shared like cable. If there was a slowdown it was on a major backbone. | |
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| | 2farfromCO7
join:2000-10-14
Farmington, MI | Exactly, if DSL was available to 100% of their customers, they could never get away with this. These policies prove that there is no price war and it's completely due to the fact that DSL isn't available. | |
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| 2farfromCO7
join:2000-10-14
Farmington, MI
| There's no price war if you can't get DSL. That's a huge percentage of the INNER INNER INNER INNER INNER URBAN(and SUBURBAN) population. DSL availability is barely over 50% in major metro areas. Cable knows this so there's no reason for them to participate in the price war. They will get 100% of the market that can't get DSL and probably 40% of the market at least that can. With those market share numbers, they will easily beat out DSL and be far more profitable doing it. Unless DSL engages in the strategy I suggest THEY WILL LOSE. I'm right and everybody else is wrong. | |
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See 13 replies to this post |
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DHRacer
Fire Survivor
join:2000-10-10
Lake Arrowhead, CA
·Charter Pipeline
·Verizon west (ex G..
| There could be good for many... 2far, is it that time of month for you again?
You have a right to complain about your lack of service in your area. I can see that you are all unhappy because the War has started, but none the battlefields are in your area.
There is not much you can do, besides rail against the companies that wont deploy to your area, but this is a discussion about the pros/cons of a price war, should it really get going.
You should try seeing the possible benefit of this situation: If companies have to lower their rates to be more competitive, then they will have to sign up more subscribers in order to earn the same amount of money before they cut the prices.
So this war may actually help force a company to deploy in your area so they can make some money back. The constitution gives you are right to yell about the sky falling, but I don't think you are seeing the whole picture here.
I hope that you get some service soon, even if it's 384 down and only up 95% of the time, as you say you want anything better than dial-up.
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See 15 replies to this post |
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nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| he's right about the deployment part though I don't agree with 2far's position about service (you get what you get, no guarantees), but I do think he is right about the deployment issue.
If the telcos don't get off their @ss and upgrade their equipment to reach farther, all they are going to do is grab customers away from the cablecos that already have access to DSL. They may pull in a few people that were price conscious, but when they have grabbed those two groups of people, their growth will stop again.
I would change in a minute for those speeds at that price, BUT I CAN'T GET DSL, and have no idea when,if ever, I will. | |
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DHRacer
Fire Survivor
join:2000-10-10
Lake Arrowhead, CA
·Charter Pipeline
·Verizon west (ex G..
| Re: he's right about the deployment part though uh, I think you need to re-read your post, you were typing too fast. cable is not dsl, it's cable. cable can offer HSI just like DSL, just the wire is different. but you know that.
Companies will only deploy to areas they are not currently serving so they can make up the revenues they are going to lose when they lower prices. That's the only way, as I see it. Otherwise, they will see no reason to reach out further. Growth is dependent on the revenue of the company. They must make money. In order to do that, they must spend a little to upgrade and then the money will come in. And then they will do that again. The price war just makes that happen faster, as it effectively reduces the amount of money that a given subscriber base produces for them. So they have to get more subscribers.
The golden goose is only golden if it keeps producing. Otherwise, it's dinner. And the search for the next "goose" will be made, in areas where there are people who badly want a service they cannot currently get.
[edits for spelling]
[text was edited by author 2003-05-05 14:48:50] | |
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| 2farfromCO7
join:2000-10-14
Farmington, MI
| said by nasadude :
I don't agree with 2far's position about service (you get what you get, no guarantees), but I do think he is right about the deployment issue.
It's just that clearly they aren't going to deploy further(unless the governments bow down to all of their demands). Thus, they must be willing to do something else. If the regulations prevent them from doing this, then push the governments to loosen these guarantees. Why would anybody be against loosening guarantees for people who can't get service anyways? If you aren't against that, you're an idiot who shouldn't be holding an elected office. | |
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ATTGUY2
join:2002-06-02
Fremont, CA | Good! Maybe Comcast.... Will realize that they just cannot continue pissing customers off and loosing them with extortion tactics like forcing people to pay more for an internet only connection and bandwith limitations. | |
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See 10 replies to this post |
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bruceko
join:2001-03-06
Lynnwood, WA
·XO COMMUNICATIONS
| Relative price I've been on Covad Idsl for three years at $69 per month. I was grand fathered in from Flashcrum. If I was to sign up for this same service today I would pay $129 per month from Covad.
I' in Verizon territory at 19500' from the Co. Verizon has no plans to upgrade this suburb of Seattle in the near future.
My next door neighbor works for Microsoft and gets weekend network supervision once a month. She tried to get Idsl and Verizon says there were no free pairs left to get a circuit to her house. The problem isn't price it is availability of any kind of service other than dialup.
Comcast has been upgrading our cable and started taking orders for high speed internet on May 1st. I signed up and am supposed to have an install tomorrow. $42.95 per month including the modem lease. Looks like a great deal to me, especially when my only other choice was a t1 at $600+ per month.
I guess it is all relative. | |
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awaltech
join:2003-05-05
Hemet, CA
| 18000 ft of what? Much of the network I troubleshoot dsl in--ex-gte--verizon west--is comprised of 26ga copper from the central office to the cross connect. This gauge cable degrades line capacity to carry dsl quite a bit. That is one big reason why enhanced packages, 1.5 downstream , for instance, do not work reliably past 12k ft. | |
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| 2farfromCO7
join:2000-10-14
Farmington, MI | Re: 18000 ft of what? Who's talking about 1.5M?? All I want is 384k. Heck, I'll take 256k. Forget about regulations. Assume there are no regulatory, legal, or consumer issues, how could it not be profitable for the RBOCs to offer 384k or 256k up to 18000ft? | |
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NoWayMr
@attbi.com
 from:
pnh102
| Re: 18000 ft of what? ok, you'll take anything... right up till you get "something" and then you will scream bloody murder you never said/meant that literally. Since you'll take anything, at what point do you feel your getting burned for your service/money. Are you trying to tell us you will settle for say 3 hours a day reliable 256k for $40 mo?[i believe you stated price is the least of issues?]how bout we spread out those 3 hours randomly, heck, let's just give you an hour a day for $50, kewl, right? of course not, so...]
Where are you using the broadband you can't get at home [you seem to know what your missing?]
Now, the wireless access company your going to start, I demand you grant me access to your equipment, I am going to compete with you for your same customers and I am going to do it using the equipment you paid for and set up. Sound fair to you? [sounds fair to the cable and resellers who what the telcos RT's, but alas, no, it doesn't work both ways, humm... no telco, you can't use my cable network]
Deregulate. Less Regulations. The government should be in charge of this matter? make up your mind. | |
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| corrosive23
join:2002-06-06
Yucaipa, CA
| Could be that verizon see's no point in upgrading the wiring through most parts of the inland empire, like rialto, highland, san bernardino, you really think they want to go through the expense in areas where the average person is a fucking moron and couldnt use a comp as it is. | |
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draven
Premium,Mod
join:2002-02-20
my bunker
| Re: While Verizon experiments Comcast stays consistent I'll tell you one thing; I think it's a safe bet and easy guess which scenario the consumer would rather have
[text was edited by author 2003-05-06 15:45:35] | |
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TopoRex
join:2002-10-18
San Diego, CA
| Hmmm, 25 Bucks a month? 25 bucks a month for SBC 384/128 DSL sounds enticing. Hope they roll it out in San Diego. Had 384-1.5M/128 SBC for 2 years with reliable service, then constant problems with dhcp & mail led me to nuking the connection. I pay 22/mo for dial up anyway so a 25.00 price point might prompt me to give em another try. | |
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optionsavailable
| 2FarFromCO Comments I understand the pain of not having broadband available. I would be bummed if I had to connect at 56K.
Nowadays, many apartmartment complexes pay to install a DSLAM inside the apartment complex. They also have to pay for either the T1 or DS3 line that connects the complex to the CO. You also stated that most of the people in the complex are willing pay for broadband access.
You might find it easier to persuade the apartment/conduminium association to pay to install a DSLAM on the premises. | |
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kieselbach
Premium
join:2001-05-23
BRAZIL |  REAL improvement????
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