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story category Latest Child Porn Fight Mostly Empty Rhetoric
While raising the specter of ISP as content babysitter...
10:09AM Friday Jul 18 2008 by Karl Bode
tags: legal · privacy · content
Earlier this month NY Attorney General Andrew Cuomo made a big deal about how he'd managed to get AOL and Time Warner Cable (TWC) to stop offering access to child porn newsgroups. The only thing was, AOL stopped offering newsgroup access three years ago to cut costs, and TWC had already been considering the cost-cutting move. So while the announcement got Cuomo's name in lights, nothing actually changed -- and even AOL admitted they weren't doing a single thing differently.

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Apparently envious that you could get a lot of positive press without actually doing much of anything, the National Cable and Telecommunications Association issued their own press release this week stating that cable operators have also now struck a "historic agreement" with the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC), and the National Association of Attorneys General (NAAG).
Specifically, the cable companies have agreed to use NCMEC's list of active websites identified as containing child pornography, to ensure that no such site is hosted on servers owned or controlled by those companies. The companies will also report these instances to NCMEC's CyberTipline and where appropriate revise their policies around other potential sources of child pornography, such as, for example, newsgroups.
But with concerned citizens, advocacy organizations and enforcement agencies out there keeping an eye peeled for such content, ISPs were already taking child porn offline when it was presented to them. So far this latest anti-child porn push appears to have done little more than give ISPs a justification for culling (AT&T stopped offering all alt.binary groups) or eliminating newsgroup access, while providing politicians and companies with positive press.

Of course the use of such watch lists also raises questions in terms of defining offensive material (anime? hentai?), and whether cementing ISPs as content nannies is a particularly good idea. Next up: filtering "extremism"?

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Forums » Latest Child Porn Fight Mostly Empty Rhetoric
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TOPDAWG
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WHAT?

The hell is with the anime girl picture?

The Flash
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Re: WHAT?

said by TOPDAWG See Profile :

The hell is with the anime girl picture?
lol ask »/useremail/u/141383

DaneJasper
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Re: WHAT?

I wrote a response on this topic from my perspective as an ISP that you might find interesting:

»corp.sonic.net/ceo/2008/06/20/th···nternet/

-Dane

Jeffrey
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said by TOPDAWG See Profile :

The hell is with the anime girl picture?
My guess is that it's a representation of the idea of "vagueness" or "ambiguity" in terms of deciding what it is and is not offensive. It makes you think a little, sort of like many of The New Yorker covers recently.

I also could be reading waaayyy to much into it.

It's obvious to me at least that the stoppage of those newsgroups by those providers is nothing but a cost-cutting and back-patting measure. Unfortunately, you can't stop child pornography that way. I don't know how to, but eliminating the entire alt.binary hierarchy isn't the way to do it.
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TOPDAWG
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Re: WHAT?

I think it's more of a favor to the RIAA and MPAA myself.

Count Zero
MD2Be
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Re: WHAT?

Most likely...

Jeffrey
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said by TOPDAWG See Profile :

I think it's more of a favor to the RIAA and MPAA myself.
That may very well be the case, ("save the children" argument turned into copyright protection/enforcement for the RIAA and MPAA), however, the issue here becomes censorship, enforcement, and relative control of a resource.

The subscribers of those ISPs that recently (or somewhat recently in AOLs case) had their alt.binaries.* hierarchy removed now either can go to a 3rd party service, or less likely, select another broadband provider in their area.

The question now becomes what is next? I'm not advocating the use of Usenet for anything illegal, but a sweeping removal of the entire alt.binaries.* groups removes good and bad. Using a rocket to kill a mosquito, if I may loosely borrow that philosophy for a second.

So, what's the next bunch of groups to go? Rec.music.*? Alt.politics.*?

Pop open your news reader and filter the alt.binaries.* hierarchy and see just exactly how many valid, legal groups are now restricted. Granted, they may be in the minority if you want to take all of the sex groups out of the argument, but none the less, they are there.

How long before third-party news providers are forced/coerced to limit newsgroups?
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Re: WHAT?

said by Jeffrey See Profile

How long before third-party news providers are forced/coerced to limit newsgroups?
[/BQUOTE :


Not long. Maybe a year.
bluedyedvd

join:2007-04-15
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Re: WHAT?

said by stomp357 See Profile :

said by Jeffrey See Profile

How long before third-party news providers are forced/coerced to limit newsgroups?
[/BQUOTE :


Not long. Maybe a year.
I doubt that The only reason the isps caved on this is what was reported they don't make any money off their newsgroups so why fight it. They AG. knew that so he didn't go after the usenet providers.

The bigger threat to newsgroups is the riaa usenet.com lawsuit.

jwersan
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said by Jeffrey See Profile :

How long before third-party news providers are forced/coerced to limit newsgroups?
Giganews appears to have already started to do this.. (Though QUIETLY)
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Re: WHAT?

said by jwersan See Profile :

said by Jeffrey See Profile :

How long before third-party news providers are forced/coerced to limit newsgroups?
Giganews appears to have already started to do this.. (Though QUIETLY)
Wow.

I have Newshosting, but I haven't heard any talk (or seen anything) that would lead me to believe they're doing it, or about to do it.
--
"Honesty may be the best policy, but it's important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy." - George Carlin

[my ramblings]

jwersan
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edit:
July 18th, @04:11PM

Re: WHAT?

said by Jeffrey See Profile :

said by jwersan See Profile :

said by Jeffrey See Profile :

How long before third-party news providers are forced/coerced to limit newsgroups?
Giganews appears to have already started to do this.. (Though QUIETLY)
Wow.

I have Newshosting, but I haven't heard any talk (or seen anything) that would lead me to believe they're doing it, or about to do it.
Well, without going into details..
I have had a few "Adult" newsgroups disappear, that held IMHO legal to view images. (NOT KIDDIE PORN, or anything like it!!!)
There have been several other groups that have disappeared too, with "nudist" in the name, so you can draw your own conclusions...

By disapeared, I mean that you get an error message that the newsgroup is not available when you try to get new headers..
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Jeffrey
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Re: WHAT?

said by jwersan See Profile :

Well, without going into details..
I have had a few "Adult" newsgroups disappear, that held IMHO legal to view images. (NOT KIDDIE PORN, or anything like it!!!)
Ah well. I left Giganews a few years ago for other sneaky business tactics, so I'm not really surprised they did this.
--
"Honesty may be the best policy, but it's important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy." - George Carlin

[my ramblings]
ggultra2764

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The differences of cultural norms between the Japanese and Americans would be a major debate concerning anime and hentai. Anime and hentai are well-known for pushing the envelope in terms of questionable content, even going beyond it at some points. One well-known and controversial genre of anime called lolicon depicts childlike female characters in an erotic manner. This is also the case with shotacon which involves childlike male characters. Western countries like Canada have responded to these titles by completely banning them from distribution as they believe such content could make someone into a child molester.

N3OGH
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It's whatever it is in your mind, and I think that's kind of the point.

Either way, is anyone surprised a politician is trying to take credit for something he/she didn't do?
--
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Matt
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Choose Your Battles

I firmly believe in choosing your battles wisely. And this is a losing battle because there are positives for the ISP's network, positives for the **AA's, positives for software developers, and yes, positives for the fight against child pornography.

If you're in the minority who still use newsgroups, you're going to have to pony up $5/month for an external provider or use one of the free text to web newsgroup services.

As Corky would say, "Life goes on."
moonpuppy

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Re: Choose Your Battles

said by Matt See Profile :

If you're in the minority who still use newsgroups, you're going to have to pony up $5/month for an external provider or use one of the free text to web newsgroup services.
Then I want a $5/month discount since the ISP was charging me for a service that was included in the price of my monthly subscription.
jp10558
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Oh, please point me at a $5 a month newsgroup provider . . . Usually it's $15 a month.

Matt
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Re: Choose Your Battles

said by jp10558 See Profile :

Oh, please point me at a $5 a month newsgroup provider . . . Usually it's $15 a month.
»www.usenet.com
maxpower

join:2006-10-09
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Corky never said "life goes on." He said "Im gonn be your short order man" before he burnt down the restaurant.
B
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join:2000-10-28

Historic

Just came in to express my mixed feelings on "a historic agreement". It looks right but sounds wrong when read aloud; one has to slow down and sound as if one is burping or stuttering.

And still I believe the more official guidelines indicate "a historic" is correct, in much the same way they recommend against beginning sentences with conjunctions.

So that's my contribution to the Empty Rhetoric.

-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function

fester

join:2005-10-03
Lorton, VA

Call me crazy

After reading this it reminded me of a video I saw about a month ago. Though it's not on child pornography/terrorism. I feel what they say in the clip relates to what's slowly going on in our country in regards to big media tightening the flow of information all for the bottom dollar in their favor.

here's the link to the clip »ipower.ning.com/netneutrality2

rahlquist
Redeye

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Villa Rica, GA

slope

Ok but why is everyone avoiding the pink elephant in the middle of the room?

Section 230 of the Communications Decency act covers this, an ISP is not responsible for the porn people can reach through it as long as the ISP does not edit or remove offensive content. Once they begin the edit the content they are liable for all the content available through them. At least that's how I have always seen it interpreted. ( »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_23···ency_Act ) so for example if I ran a small ISP with a news server and removed alt.kiddie.porn from my server and someone managed to pull some kiddie porn from alt.porn then I would be responsible for that content as if I approved it. AT&T solved this by dumping all the alt.binaries, but that still wont prevent it 100%.

The slippery slope is sliding past us at an ever increasing rate. Reach out and grab the lifeline of the bill of rights and constitution ...
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Re: slope

The problem is that the New York AG was threatening to launch legal action against the carriers anyway. They may have been able to use the Communications Decency Act as a defense, but it would still end up a long expensive legal process that would greatly injure their public image. ("Next at 11: Is your ISP defending pedophiles?")

major marco
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Re: slope

said by rahlquist See Profile :

Ok but why is everyone avoiding the pink elephant in the middle of the room?
said by EPS See Profile :

The problem is that the New York AG was threatening to launch legal action against the carriers anyway. They may have been able to use the Communications Decency Act as a defense, but it would still end up a long expensive legal process that would greatly injure their public image. ("Next at 11: Is your ISP defending pedophiles?")
Two reasons:

(1) How many sheeple are actually aware of the CDA, nevermind §230.

and

(2) Notwithstanding negative PR, but also include the fact that these phantom crusades make great 20 second soundbytes for fatcats looking to pad their resumes so it looks good for the next election year. It's a hell of a lot easier to appear to be doing something worthwhile as opposed to actually having to get off your ass and do it. Why bother when the press will suck you off with very little to no effort exerted by you.
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Kearnstd
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this could also be a method of attack at piracy, get the ISPs to close down newsgroup access in the name of the children and you also nip a bud on the massive piracy tree, which while usless makes the legal eagles and **AAs feel good.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports

cdru
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Election year?

Does anyone know, is this an election year? I can never tell.
Shoreline
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edit:
July 18th, @01:30PM

Empty Rhetoric

Indeed, but it's also an election year.

People suddenly lose what few brain cells they have when it comes to elections during an election year.

They forget the voting history and tendencies of the politician, instead focus entirely on the marketing scheme. Just like people make bad choices with products, they make even poorer choices with politicians. Is our children learning? Get a brain, morans.

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
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Phoenix, AZ

More money in CxO's pockets in the name of

Protecting people from child porn.
do you see any providers kicking back anything to the sub for reducing their costs? NO!
--
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Sharon Wills

@cotse.net

Make child porn legal!

Child porn should be made legal because they have included non child porn pictures in the definition (cartoons).

Whilst I am against child porn, I am not in favour of jailing people for looking at cartoons, therefore, make child porn legal now! (or change its definition)

Uyouee

@comcast.net

Can anyone spell...

Amerika?
Or Americhina?

Recluse of East

@comcast.net

I voted with my feet on this one.

Called good old Ma Bell up last Friday, the day the alt. binaries were taken down, had me a talk with the customer service rep. I pointed out that it should at the very least have involved a new TOS agreement, and to have accepted feedback would have been nice too, but, that since they did neither, I was moving to ComCast. I had stuck with AT&T because of the newsgroup link, and since the cable company was charging the same amount of money for a faster connection, I was gone.

Of course Ma Bell couldn't care less, but at least I got a few words in.

I don't see nntp going away any time soon, no matter what Big Bushy Brother does. The farms can just move offshore into friendlier Eastern realms where as long as it's in English they don't care what you do.
Forums » Latest Child Porn Fight Mostly Empty Rhetoric


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