Eighty Pages Of Comcast Insisting They're ReasonableReasonable, reasonable, reasonable, reasonable, reasonable, reasonable... ( old news - 12:16PM Wednesday Feb 13 2008) tags: business · bandwidth · cable · networking · ComcastFacing an investigation by the FCC for their traffic shaping practices, Comcast last week quietly changed their terms of service. While Comcast insisted to us the changes were an effort to make traffic shaping more clear to consumers, it's clear to us that the wording was changed to more directly mirror the FCC's policy statement on network neutrality, which allows all but a blockade of competing traffic as long as an ISP lawyer can justify the practice as "reasonable network management."The word "reasonable" makes repeated appearances in the new TOS, which lacks any specifics on exactly how much monthly bandwidth consumption is too much. Comcast's use of Sandvine hardware to send forged TCP packets -- which throttles upstream p2p traffic for all Comcast users regardless of excessive use -- also isn't clearly illuminated in the new TOS, which justifies more than it explains. Comcast yesterday filed a statement (pdf) with the FCC vigorously defending their traffic shaping practices. That defense makes the claim that "no valid conclusions about the effects of Comcast's network management practices could be drawn" from tests of Comcast's traffic shaping (including those by our users, the Associated Press and the EFF) because the tests "did not replicate how p2p protocols operate in the real world."The EFF clearly showed in their recent report that Comcast could have chosen less draconian traffic shaping methods that incurred less collateral damage. Still, Comcast urges the FCC to determine that Comcast's particular brand of network management is reasonable under the definition in the FCC's policy statement on network neutrality. Critical decisions should not be based on the demands of the vocal minority who make the most noise in public forums -Comcast |
The company goes on to ask the FCC "to make it clear that it will not be drawn into second guessing the reasonable network management decisions that engineers and service providers must make on a daily -- and sometimes hourly -- basis to respond to a dynamic and ever-changing Internet." According to the company, such "critical decisions should not be based on the demands of the vocal minority who make the most noise in public forums."All told, Comcast uses the word "reasonable" more than forty times in their statement to the FCC. Unlike the company's TOS, they do inform the FCC that the company uses "reset packets" to throttle upstream p2p traffic, though they don't mention specific hardware, and the company takes issue with use of the word "forged" to explain these packets: It is not accurate to describe these reset packets as "forged," and Free Press's attempted analogy to a telephone operator impersonating the called and calling parties to a phone conversation is inflammatory hyperbole, not fact. A "reset" is nothing more than a bit in the TCP packet header that is used to signal that there is an error condition within the network, and that a new connection needs to be established...it is much like what occurs when a fax machine receives a busy signal and the machine automatically redials until the facsimile goes through, except that in the case of P2P, the downloading computer may have hundreds or thousands of other computers to look to for the desired file. Indeed the defense is jam packed with vibrant new metaphors to justify Comcast's particular choice of network management. "One would not claim that the car is "blocked" or 'prevented' from entering the freeway," insists Comcast in their 80-page defense. "Rather, it is briefly delayed, then permitted onto the freeway in its turn while all other traffic is kept moving as expeditiously as possible." The self-policing marketplace and blogosphere, combined with vigilant scrutiny from policymakers, provides an ample check on the reasonableness of such (network management) judgments. -Comcast |
One other interesting excerpt spotted by IP Democracy, was Comcast's insistence that the FCC doesn't need to get involved because "The self-policing marketplace and blogosphere, combined with vigilant scrutiny from policymakers, provides an ample check on the reasonableness of such [network management] judgments."Over the past few months the entire blogosphere and U.S. news corps have essentially called Comcast out for their tap-dancing around and distortion of the truth -- yet Comcast's only reaction to this firestorm was to have their lawyers beef up the company's TOS. Something tells me that the "blogosphere" isn't going to be much of a system of checks and balances. Something tells me the FCC isn't going to be, either. As a side comment, we'll note that last November we reported that Cox was doing the exact same thing to p2p traffic (specifically eDonkey traffic), and the media response was completely non-existent. Why? In part because Cox clearly cites their monthly caps, and came forward quickly about the fact they they do throttle some p2p applications. That, and the press has the attention span of a walnut -- but that's another column. Comcast's decision to hide the truth from their users, and their decision to play semantic pattycake with the press is a major reason why the company received so much attention. The debate is as much about transparency as it is about network neutrality. Traffic shaping is not national security. We continue to believe that customers should have full disclosure as to how a network is managed if they're to make smart purchasing decisions. We'll let you further dissect Comcast's metaphor-packed defense, lest we get long winded and ornery. Will the FCC, who has a recent history of picking on cable operators, buy Comcast's defense? Do you think ISPs should be clear in informing potential customers as to precisely what kind of traffic shaping they're using to manage their networks? Does repeated use of a single word actually bend space/time and change reality? Voice your opinion in the comment section below. Related:- What's Behind Comcast's Sudden Love of P2P
- Comcast Begins Testing 'Protocol Agnostic' Network Management
- Comcast Confirms New Throttling Tests We Reported Yesterday
- Comcast To Deploy Femtocells
- Comcast, Cox, Trot Out Their Worst 'Bandwidth Hogs'
- Beating Comcast's Sandvine On Linux With Iptables
- Comcast Expands Switched Digital Video Trials
- Comcast Pays Florida $150K For Misleading Consumers
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  hopeflicker Capitalism breeds greed Premium join:2003-04-03 Long Beach, CA
| yep According to the company, such "critical decisions should not be based on the demands of the vocal minority who make the most noise in public forums." ------------------------ LOL
give want the people want! -- Man created God in his image : intolerant, sexist, homophobic and violent. | |
|  |   KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest
| Re: yep said by hopeflicker :According to the company, such "critical decisions should not be based on the demands of the vocal minority who make the most noise in public forums." ------------------------ LOL give want the people want! ROFL
Comcast: It's not fair! BroadbandReports.com is ratting us out! /pout -- "Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
|  |  |   NAMEGOESHERE
@clearwire-dns.net | Re: yep kaRL +1 COMCAST -1
BBR FTW!!!!! | |
|   ptrowski Got Helix? Premium join:2005-03-14 Putnam, CT clubs: | Wording should be clear.... Saying reasonable 40+ times doesn't make it clear. Tell the customers what they are doing, don't try to deny what they are doing. That has failed in the past and will fail again. | |
|  |   N O Y B St. John 3.16
join:2005-12-15 Forest Grove, OR
·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
edit: February 13th, @04:49PM
| Re: Wording should be clear....Comcast has already told the customer what they are doing. Read the Comcast TOS & AUP. Comcast TOS & AUP make it very clear the type of use and traffic of Bittorrents is prohibited.
If you are unable to understand them, blame your education, not Comcast.
-- Be a Good Netizen - Read, Know & Honor Your ISP Terms of Service Comcast: »www.comcast.net/terms/index.jsp Verizon: »onlinehelp.verizon.net/consumer/···0707.pdf | |
|  |  |   ptrowski Got Helix? Premium join:2005-03-14 Putnam, CT clubs:
·ViaTalk
·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: Wording should be clear.... said by N O Y B :Comcast has already told the customer what they are doing. Read the Comcast TOS & AUP. Comcast TOS & AUP make it very clear the type of use and traffic of Bittorrents is prohibited. If you are unable to understand them, blame your education, not Comcast. I beg to differ. It was as clear as you say, these discussions would not be going on. Comcast has and still is cryptic about their wording on their TOS and AUP and their definitions can be interpreted many different ways.
Forging packets though is NOT a acceptable way to manage traffic. -- "A religious war is like children fighting over who has the strongest imaginary friend."
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage? »www.venganza.org | |
|  |  |  lordofwhee
join:2007-10-21 Everett, WA | It's clear if you have a law degree from Harvard, and only in the NEW TOS, the old one said nothing of the sort. That's what they're taking fire for. | |
|  |  |   sillysillysig
@caltech.edu
| said by N O Y B :Comcast has already told the customer what they are doing. Read the Comcast TOS & AUP. Comcast TOS & AUP make it very clear the type of use and traffic of Bittorrents is prohibited. If you are unable to understand them, blame your education, not Comcast. lol at your silly sig | |
|   Unfortunate
| This will continue People may as well get use to it, all major players that provide internet service seem prepared to start doing the same type of blocking and/or limiting what you can do with your internet.
More of how long will it be before this is put in place everywhere and can it be circumvented? And if it can be circumvented, that is why Time Warner just wants to bill you for usage.
Oh well.. Lose-Lose it seems for the end user in the long run. | |
|  |  ajax25
join:2003-12-10 Colonia, NJ
| Re: This will continue said by Unfortunate :
People may as well get use to it, all major players that provide internet service seem prepared to start doing the same type of blocking and/or limiting what you can do with your internet.
More of how long will it be before this is put in place everywhere and can it be circumvented? And if it can be circumvented, that is why Time Warner just wants to bill you for usage.
Oh well.. Lose-Lose it seems for the end user in the long run. I don't think we'll see this with FIOS. | |
|  |  tigernike23
join:2006-03-26 Decatur, IL
·Comcast
·Insight Communicat..
edit: March 2nd, @10:48PM
| said by Unfortunate :
People may as well get use to it, all major players that provide internet service seem prepared to start doing the same type of blocking and/or limiting what you can do with your internet.
More of how long will it be before this is put in place everywhere and can it be circumvented? And if it can be circumvented, that is why Time Warner just wants to bill you for usage.
Oh well.. Lose-Lose it seems for the end user in the long run. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought BT would be encrypting data in the next release.
And something else never gets brought up, price. I love how Comcast's commercials are quite clever, only to leave out the price of the service. | |
|   newview Ex .. Ex .. Exactly Premium join:2001-10-01 Parsonsburg, MD | I have this gnawing feeling . . . that if Comcast prevails in this investigation, they will use the findings to begin "traffic shaping" other protocols they deem unacceptable. | |
|  |   dsparil
@comcast.net | Re: I have this gnawing feeling . . . I just hope the investors win that lawsuit they've been threatening Comcast with not too long ago... How's that going anyway??? | |
|  |  SilverSurfer
join:2007-08-19
edit: February 13th, @12:35PM
| said by newview :that if Comcast prevails in this investigation, they will use the findings to begin "traffic shaping" other protocols they deem unacceptable. Threats of an FCC investigation are basically toothless, anyway. Do you really believe the FCC will actually put a stop to business as usual while the telco errand boy is still at the helm? He would be treading in awfully shallow water to demonize a business practice that his beloved corporate telco masters will no doubt and have employed themselves. (cough AT&T cough Pearl Jam cough). The throttling of Internet traffic is tantamount to censorship, however, Essentially, Comcrap's version of same is a different stanza of the same song. | |
|  |  |  |  |   newview Ex .. Ex .. Exactly Premium join:2001-10-01 Parsonsburg, MD
·Vonage
| Re: I have this gnawing feeling . . . said by Skeedatl :said by newview :that if Comcast prevails in this investigation, they will use the findings to begin "traffic shaping" other protocols they deem unacceptable. Which will be everything not going to their "commercial partners". . . . like VOIP.
What better way to stifle competition than to screw with packets to a competing VOIP service in order to convince potential subscribers that Comcast is "better". -- Ö¿Ö The Rules of Spam | Maryland's Newest Anti-Spam Law Where are we going? And what's with the hand basket? | |
|  |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL
·AT&T Southeast
·Mediacom
| Re: I have this gnawing feeling . . . But if ISPs do that, they'll bring the rain of the net neutrality crowd. I doubt we'll see that from ISPs. The direction that ISPs are leaning in regards to capping and/or billing-by-the-byte are much more plausible tactics to "stifle" competition IMO. | |
|  |  |   JasonD
@comcast.net
from: TK Junk Mail 
| Re: Comcast changed AUP to admit to Connection tampering Now they need to find a method to 'disable' the p2p download side. Imagine the immediate relief their network would feel if this burden could be lifted, not to mention the cost savings. | |
|  |  |   factchecker
@cox.net
| Re: Comcast changed AUP to admit to Connection tampering said by JasonD :
Now they need to find a method to 'disable' the p2p download side. Imagine the immediate relief their network would feel if this burden could be lifted, not to mention the cost savings. Yeah, and imagine what the customer attrition would do to them when suddenly people can't "Download music, photos and videos way faster than DSL and dial-up"...
Customers just love being lied to... | |
|  |  |   someone2
@pacbell.net
| said by JasonD :
Now they need to find a method to 'disable' the p2p download side. Imagine the immediate relief their network would feel if this burden could be lifted, not to mention the cost savings. I don't think the negative PR would be worth it to Comcast to do that.
People may not admit it, but probably quite a few subcribers of Comcast use P2P services.
Disabling them would not be a smart move. | |
|  |  |   asdfdfdfdfdfdf
@Level3.net | I'm glad you are admitting that you believe this is NOT an attempt to "briefly delay" p2p traffic but is an assault intended to kill off p2p applications. | |
|   pokesph It Is Almost Fast
join:2001-06-25 Sacramento, CA clubs: | Traffic Shaping, Packet Forgery quote: Reasonable, reasonable, reasonable, reasonable, reasonable, reasonable...
Illegal, illegal, illegal, illegal, illegal, illegal... | |
|  |  ajax25
join:2003-12-10 Colonia, NJ | Re: Traffic Shaping, Packet Forgery I guess they can do whatever they want as long as they change their policy?
NOT | |
|  |  |  ajax25
join:2003-12-10 Colonia, NJ | Re: Traffic Shaping, Packet Forgery This one is my favorite.
"Comcast gives consumers useful information about its bandwidth management pratices" | |
|  |  |  |   adisor19
join:2004-10-11
·Videotron
·Look Communications
| Re: Traffic Shaping, Packet Forgery said by ajax25 :This one is my favorite. "Comcast gives consumers useful information about its bandwidth management pratices" AHAHAHHAHAH That's a classic PR BS LIE.
Heh, they've been using this technique for MONTHS before the press finally became aware of it. And all that time they were denying EVERYTHING.
Adi | |
|  |  |  |   newview Ex .. Ex .. Exactly Premium join:2001-10-01 Parsonsburg, MD
·Vonage
| said by ajax25 :This one is my favorite. "Comcast gives consumers useful information about its bandwidth management pratices" LIARS . . . again | |
|  |  |   pokesph It Is Almost Fast
join:2001-06-25 Sacramento, CA clubs:
·Comcast
| said by ajax25 :I guess they can do whatever they want as long as they change their policy? NOT Not in my state anyway: (bold's are mine) said by CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE 502(c) : CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE 502(c) "COMPREHENSIVE COMPUTER DATA ACCESS AND FRAUD ACT"
(1) Knowingly accesses and without permission alters, damages, deletes, destroys, or otherwise uses any data, computer, computer system, or computer network in order to either (A) devise or execute any scheme or artifice to defraud, deceive, or extort, or (B) wrongfully control or obtain money, property, or data.
(2) Knowingly accesses and without permission takes, copies, or makes use of any data from a computer, computer system, or computer network, or takes or copies any supporting documentation, whether existing or residing internal or external to a computer, computer system, or computer network.
(3) Knowingly and without permission uses or causes to be used computer services.
(4) Knowingly accesses and without permission adds, alters, damages, deletes, or destroys any data, computer software, or computer programs which reside or exist internal or external to a computer, computer system, or computer network.
(5) Knowingly and without permission disrupts or causes the disruption of computer services or denies or causes the denial of computer services to an authorized user of a computer, computer system, or computer network.
(6) Knowingly and without permission provides or assists in providing a means of accessing a computer, computer system, or computer network in violation of this section.
(7) Knowingly and without permission accesses or causes to be accessed any computer, computer system, or computer network.
(8) Knowingly introduces any computer contaminant into any computer, computer system, or computer network.
(9) Knowingly and without permission uses the Internet domain name of another individual, corporation, or entity in connection with the sending of one or more electronic mail messages, and thereby damages or causes damage to a computer, computer system, or computer network.
ref: »nsi.org/Library/Compsec/computer···forn.txt | |
|  |  |  |  SilverSurfer
join:2007-08-19
edit: February 13th, @01:15PM
| Re: Traffic Shaping, Packet Forgery said by pokesph :Not in my state anyway: (bold's are mine) It's nice that you know how to research the Penal Code and all, but Comcrap's practice of throttling/spoofing is still occurring in the Golden State, virtually with impunity, nonetheless. Additionally, take notice in the Hart v. Comcast complaint, your Penal Code citation is not a cause of action. Guess you better notify Hart's legal counsel -the Lexington Law Group- that you found the magic law that will prohibit Comcast's practices. | |
|  |  |  |  |   pokesph It Is Almost Fast
join:2001-06-25 Sacramento, CA clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Traffic Shaping, Packet Forgery said by SilverSurfer :It's nice that you know how to research the Penal Code and all, but Comcrap's practice of throttling/spoofing is still occurring in the Golden State, virtually with impunity, nonetheless. Yeah I saw that.. I hope his lawyer is up for the task.. and that the court recognizes it's own laws.. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  SilverSurfer
join:2007-08-19
| Re: Traffic Shaping, Packet Forgery said by pokesph :Yeah I saw that.. I hope his lawyer is up for the task.. and that the court recognizes it's own laws.. My point was that Comcast throttling/spoofing is occurring in California with impunity, and, despite your assertion to the contrary of, as well as a lawsuit brought by another individual, the Penal Code section you cited does not appear in Hart's complaint. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   jhboricua ExMod 2000-01 join:2000-06-06 Minneapolis, MN clubs:
| Re: Traffic Shaping, Packet Forgery said by N O Y B :#4 It is their network, so they give themselves permission. And further more you gave them permission when you agreed to the TOS & AUP. #5 Ditto #8 Rest packets are not a contaminant. You all yell about defining "reasonable", so define contaminant. TOS, AUPs, and EULAs are not above state and federal laws, so your argument is moot. -- "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein Jose A. Hernandez * System Admin * MPLS, Minnesota, USA * | |
|  |  |  |  |  lillypad
join:2005-11-19 San Francisco, CA | I didn't realize that the cabling from their cable modem connection to another person's computer was their network. However I DO believe that the forged packet has to travel over said cabling. | |
|  |   KrK Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy Premium join:2000-01-17 Tulsa, OK | Forged, Forged, Forged, Forged, Forged, Forged.... | |
|   factchecker
@cox.net
| Bull$hit ! It is not accurate to describe these reset packets as "forged," and Free Press's attempted analogy to a telephone operator impersonating the called and calling parties to a phone conversation is inflammatory hyperbole, not fact. Comcast is full of crap with that statement... They are doing exactly what Free Press accuses them of doing, forging packets.
Whenever anyone creates a packet with the IP address of another host, without actually being that host, they are spoofing or forging a packet. Sorry Comcast, you can't twist the facts on this one. If you are generating packets from WW.XX.YY.ZZ without actually being WW.XX.YY.ZZ, you are forging packets.
And the funny thing is, if anyone else tried to do what Comcast was doing, they would be quick to call it that - spoofing/forging packets - and they would quickly slap you down for it. | |
|  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL
·AT&T Southeast
·Mediacom
| Re: Bull$hit ! said by factchecker :
Whenever anyone creates a packet with the IP address of another host, without actually being that host, they are spoofing or forging a packet. Sorry Comcast, you can't twist the facts on this one. If you are generating packets from WW.XX.YY.ZZ without actually being WW.XX.YY.ZZ, you are forging packets. So, Comcast aside, should we disallow proxy servers? Or are you simply saying that ISPs should be required to inform users of the "stuff" in the middle of their connections? | |
|  |  |   factchecker
@cox.net
from: DooD 
| Re: Bull$hit ! said by openbox9 :So, Comcast aside, should we disallow proxy servers? Or are you simply saying that ISPs should be required to inform users of the "stuff" in the middle of their connections? For the most part, ISPs have given up on the use of caches mostly for the reason that they typically cause more problems than they can solve. CDNs have largely made them obsolete as well.
Proxies are simply caches, nothing more. They don't analyze, modify and spoof packets in a manner that breaks the network.
Additionally, to mention proxies in the context of this discussion is fallacious and demonstrates a lack of knowledge on the difference between a proxy server and what is going on at Comcast.
The type of activity that Comcast is engaging in is far more dangerous. It is basically a man-in-the-middle attack. Forging source addresses and modify packet contents enroute is considered to be a pretty shitty thing to do in the networking admin/system admin community. | |
|  |  |  |  openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL
·AT&T Southeast
·Mediacom
| Re: Bull$hit ! said by factchecker :
Proxies are simply caches, nothing more. They don't analyze, modify and spoof packets in a manner that breaks the network. Caching is only one capability of a proxy. The whole point of a proxy is that it intercepts data streams, alters packets, and then forwards as itself.
Would you prefer to answer the question in regards to NAT...which has a potential to break a lot more applications than what Comcast is doing.
I'm not defending Comcast at all, I'm merely asking for clarification on your comment that ISPs shouldn't be allowed to intercept and alter packets. | |
|  axus
join:2001-06-18 Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Cox HSI
| vocal minority Heh, sounds like Comcast is directly responding to this board.
Hey, I don't remember making any decisions here, I just vocalize my point of view. It's up to the FCC to make decisions, and they're appointed by those that the majority elected. The FCC never came to me asking for my help in their decision making. | |
|   punker deleted by moderator Premium join:2004-06-21 Palmdale, CA clubs:
·Time Warner VOIP
·RoadRunner Cable
edit: February 13th, @12:40PM
| Forgery IS Illegal, illegal, illegal, illegal, illegal Forgery is the process of making or adapting objects or documents (see false document), with the intent to deceive. The similar crime of fraud is the crime of deceiving another, including through the use of objects obtained through forgery. Copies, studio replicas, and reproductions are not considered forgeries, though they may later become forgeries through knowing and willful mis-attributions. -- Ω? | |
|   Titus Pullo I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26 | What's perfectly reasonable, and becoming more justifiable with each passing day, are my reasons for dumping their service over a year ago. -- | |
|   RadioDoc Sortofadog Premium,ExMod 2000-03 join:2000-05-11 Chicago, IL
·AT&T Midwest
| Nice analysis Karl And yes, I am serious. 
I particularly like their car example. Instead of just delaying the traffic like they claim they are, they are ripping off a door and replacing it with one not from your car. And they're changing the license plate too. And THEN they send it on its way.
The reason they are fighting this so hard is that they fully intend to use this technology against anything which competes with their cash-cow video on demand products. | |
|  amungus Premium join:2004-11-26 America clubs:
·Cox HSI
| Critically botched such "critical decisions should not be based on the demands of the vocal minority who make the most noise in public forums." That little quote above makes me curious about their stance on what defines the internet... Critical decisions pertaining to the nature of the internet are usually discussed, defined, by many standards organizations, not ISPs. Sure, ISP's implement their portions of what becomes assimilated to the rest of the internet, but they should have no place in changing how it works without consent and approval from the rest of the world.
I understand that BT can get out of hand very quickly with lots of little connections, but overall, there are better solutions. First, if people were "nicer" and limited their clients to a reasonable number instead of unlimited, they'd greatly reduce the needless traffic that pisses off ISPs. Second, the ISP could probably figure out a way to do this for their customers anyway instead of "shaping" such traffic into a state that mostly kills it.
Really, how hard would it be to limit customer A to, for instance, 20 simultaneous connections instead of allowing unlimited numbers of things bounce up and down from 100's to 10's and back and forth? Customer B, who's simply surfing or downloading from one or two sources at a time would never know anything was different. "A" would likely notice a limit, but everything would still work, and it'd probably still work with relatively good speed.
Changing how the internet works in the ways that this ISP seems to be doing just seems downright wrong. Surely there is a better way to handle this instead of the approach they've taken.
Debating the legality of a protocol is not what I'm even going to touch on here. In my opinion, it's a great idea that deserves to be out there just as much as any other method of exchanging information. Granted, unlimited numbers of connections up/down can be a problem for ISPs, but why knock the whole system out instead of handling it responsibly? Users should too. You shouldn't set your clients to spew out connections at full blast, it's considered bad netiquete. It's been this way for a long time, and having more speed shouldn't change that. ISPs should also realize this, and if they must, I think they do have some say in controlling simultaneous connections to/from IP addresses which are going nuts. "Shaping" a protocol into near oblivion, however, isn't the answer. | |
|  |  |  |  |  amungus Premium join:2004-11-26 America clubs: | Re: Critically botched Nice  | |
|  |  |  See 52 replies to this post | |
 MyDogHsFleas Premium join:2007-08-15 Austin, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Southwest
| Why does Network Neutrality apply? Network Neutrality was originally supposed to be about stopping the big ISPs from discriminating against the Googles, YouTubes, and Vonages of the world, supposedly so that the ISPs' captive or favored services would run better than those third-party services. It's interesting that, suddenly, the P2P user community is invoking Network Neutrality as a defense. That was really not the original intent, in my view. So I cast a skeptical eye at this approach.
It seems to me this is being used as a stalking horse for the copyright debate. Because if you grant that most P2P traffic is illegal transfer of copyrighted material, then you can't really invoke Network Neutrality as a defense. It'd be like saying that the ISPs should not worry about child porn websites. | |
|  |  See 11 replies to this post | |
  ISP neutrality
@comcast.net
from: koma3504 
| Stop messing with my VOIP Comcast's traffic shaping practices have been affecting a lot more then just P2P traffic. VOIP services from 2 different providers has gone down hill ever since while Comcast's VOIP service has worked flawlessly. The whole point of network neutrality was to prevent that type behavior from ISP "INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDER" whose job is to provide Internet access. | |
|  |   superdog I Need A Drink Premium,MVM join:2001-07-13 Lebanon, PA
·WaveCrazy.Net
| Re: Stop messing with my VOIP said by ISP neutrality :
Comcast's traffic shaping practices have been affecting a lot more then just P2P traffic. VOIP services from 2 different providers has gone down hill ever since while Comcast's VOIP service has worked flawlessly. As an ISP, I must agree that if this is in fact happening, it should be stopped. This is just wrong! -- »www.wavecrazy.net Join WISPA today! »www.wispa.org/ | |
|  |  MyDogHsFleas Premium join:2007-08-15 Austin, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T Southwest
edit: February 13th, @03:21PM
| said by ISP neutrality :
Comcast's traffic shaping practices have been affecting a lot more then just P2P traffic. VOIP services from 2 different providers has gone down hill ever since while Comcast's VOIP service has worked flawlessly. The whole point of network neutrality was to prevent that type behavior from ISP "INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDER" whose job is to provide Internet access. I am pretty sure that Comcast Digital Phone does not share the cable modem Internet channel. I understand it's actually implemented across a different RF frequency on the cable. This would account for the better quality.
I am a Time Warner customer, not Comcast, but personally, I had to dump Road Runner and go with AT&T DSL specifically because of poor VoIP quality. I had too many packet drops and too much jitter of the latency to provide a smooth, good quality connection. It had nothing to do with traffic shaping. | |
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