iProvo FTTH Losing CustomersCity brings in consultant to find out why... ( old news - 04:34PM Wednesday Dec 19 2007) tags: Fiber · competition · business · municipal Utah has two major municipal projects that deliver fiber service up to 50Mbps directly to state residents: iProvo and Utopia. Both networks are municipally built, and lease wholesale network access to regional ISPs. According to Telephony Online, iProvo has been losing customers, and the folks behind iProvo have brought in consultants to find out why. So far, the reasons depend who you ask: Ben Gould, chief executive officer of MStar, one of the two service providers on the iProvo network, said “it is definitely the case” that incumbents are undercutting iProvo’s prices, though he also said MStar has been matching those prices. Though some local observers attribute iProvo’s churn to generally inadequate customer service from the network’s two service providers, Gould dismissed the charge, arguing that about half of MStar’s churn comes from people moving. “Provo’s a college town, so there’s going to be a lot of moves every fall and every spring,” he said. iProvo has some 10,300 customers, but has been losing them at a rate of 120 per month. It costs the city about $800 to connect each subscriber, so they're hoping to correct the problems (be they pricing, support, or service quality) as soon as possible.
Related:- Utopia Not So Picture Perfect
- iProvo Sold To Broadweave For $40 Million
- Fiber To The Home In Kutztown, PA
- Locals Try To Keep Utopia Afloat
- Thursday Evening Links
- Wednesday Evening Links
- Friday Evening Links
- Lafayette Unveils FTTH Pricing
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L337
Premium
join:2005-03-10
Chicago, IL | Torrent Caps I'm telling you but I think it's the torrent caps =D | |
|  | axus
join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC | Re: Torrent Caps If the competitors have the same price and no caps, that could be a reason. Sounds like they've got a problem if switching over a customer costs $800... that should only be for new customers. | |
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morbo
Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000
clubs: | who wants this project to fail? incumbents would love to see this fail. it would be the ultimate answer for other cities thinking about a muni system... | |
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ropeguru
Premium
join:2001-01-25
Hollywood, FL
clubs:
edit:
December 20th, @08:15AM
| Re: who wants this project to fail? Exactly.. And that is one reason why corporations that provide this type of service should be limited in size. How can a local provider compete, even if they do build their own infrastructure, when the large corporation can take a loss for a long time in that small area and cover it with profits from everywhere else??
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FWD#: 223611 | |
| Lazlow
join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO | Short on information Is the $800 a one time cost per physical location? If so, once each "house" has had it done then it is no longer an issue.
Kinda thin on information in this topic. | |
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Rogue Wolf
Came To Bury Caesar, Not To Praise Him
join:2003-08-12
Saratoga Springs, NY
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Short on information I was wondering that myself. Surely it can't cost $800 simply to "turn on" the service at an already-connected location? If that's the case, they've got a lot more problems than simple subscriber churn. 
I can't believe that Utah is seeing such explosive housing growth that people will build houses, have FTTH connected and then move out before the muni project sees a return on the layout investment.
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I have learned to ignore such naysayers, when... quelling... them... hm?... was out of the question. | |
| | | travelguy
join:1999-09-03
Albuquerque, NM
| Re: Short on information said by Rogue Wolf  :I was wondering that myself. Surely it can't cost $800 simply to "turn on" the service at an already-connected location? If that's the case, they've got a lot more problems than simple subscriber churn. Actually, it can. The sat providers figure it costs them around $600 every time they sign up a customer. One reason that's so high is advertising and marketing costs. The other is that maintaining a fleet of trucks and installers isn't cheap, even if all they do is drop of a modem. | |
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Capt Video
@mstarmetro.net | The $800 is a one time cost to run fiber to the home on a new install. | |
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en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | Re: Tell me it isn't so Not everyone cares about having 50Mbps, especially with caps.
Many care about pricing and service.
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Canada = Hollywood North | |
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wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·RoadRunner Cable
 ·BroadVoice
| Re: Tell me it isn't so said by en102 :Not everyone cares about having 50Mbps, especially with caps. Many care about pricing and service. What?? HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT. Anyone who isnt an idiot knows that everyone in America is demanding 50Mbps home connections. I mean, we hear it everyday right on this website so it must be true! 
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время индейки! | |
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Richard B
Fur It Up
join:2007-06-22
Portland, OR
·Comcast
edit:
December 19th, @06:37PM
| I bet 99% do not care about caps. Most people I know are value not technical oriented. A good example is my family. They are not dumb Ones an environmental chemist, one Register nurse, one physician assistant, I am the only one technical and know to maintain computers. They only care if the can connect to a network at any speed. Most are happy with dial-up.
To then a cap is something that place over a test tube or I.V catheter. | |
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Jerm
join:2000-04-10
Richland, WA
| Well the error here is the college town part. I've lived in college towns, and it's not a place I'd want to service a broadband network.
College students use a LOT of bandwidth. They also don't always pay the bills.
Comcast & Qwest come in and offer $100 triple play deals (for probably 8mbps cable and even slower DSL).
These muni broadband providers have to match that (except they are 15mps) and then if the customer starts using P2P (ie torrents) and actually *using* that 15mbit god forbid then they could really lose $$ on that customer. And lets not get started on the 50mbit customers - if you were paying for 50mbit broadband would you like it if your provider told you "no sorry can't use it" for certain things? | |
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dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
| Re: Tell me it isn't so said by KrK :said by TK Junk Mail :The shining star of muni systems? The model, on which others were to build theirs, I don't know about you but to ME 50/50 Symetrical for $40 is like OMG WOW SIGN ME UP And everything you'd probably want to use the upload for isn't allowed plus the caps. . .
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You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth | |
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Capt Video
@mstarmetro.net
| ...and they have signed up th people like you. It's the others (most of the population) that don't care about the differece between fast and fastest...or do mostly email and light web surfing that don't care.
And the comment on students being P2P bandwidth pigs is also true! They leave their computer on day and night and people from all over the world connect here because of the great speeds for P2P. Hurts the service providers cost model. | |
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
edit:
December 19th, @09:11PM
| Edit: iProvo and Utopia do not directly compete. They are in the same area, but not the same towns/cities. Mstar is available on both. | |
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TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Tell me it isn't so said by KrK :So, Iprovo needs to *slightly* drop prices to match Utopia.... and then the problem will be solved. Sure. They can make up the money they lose on each customer by having more customers.
They will just lose money FASTER with lower prices, especially if price isn't their main problem.
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Internet News
My BLOG
My Web Page
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
 ·AT&T Southwest
| Re: Tell me it isn't so Read it carefully. They aren't losing the money on each customer in service... they are losing money on customers they hook up and then leave a short time later because the equipment connection costs per home hooked up is $800. Which seems high to me.
The solution, and why they've brought in consultants, is to gain more customers and reduce churn. IE they need customers who like the service and stay with iProvo. They aren't losing money on each customer unless they leave before the connection costs have been absorbed.
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"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
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Capt Video
@mstarmetro.net
| iProvo does not compete with UTOPIA, and both are priced close. It's Comcast's 3 services for $99 and Qwest's "price for life" promotions that they compete with. Only no service provider has the money to buy media (TV, etc) like Comcast and Qwest do. The muni's spend nothing on marketing. They just own the network. | |
| | | RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
·XMission
| said by KrK :I found the problem. The fact that there's TWO Fiber providers, and Utopia is cheaper. In other words. Iprovo KICKS ASS compared to the cable companies and Telcos NATIONWIDE... but they are up against ANOTHER Fiber provider (How many of us in the USA have a choice of ONE fiber provider, let alone TWO?!?) According to the Utopia page, they do not service Provo. Payson which is about 4 miles south of Provo, and Orem which is on the north side of Provo get some Utopia.
Plus, as I hear it from our local city rep who is involved in things like Utopia, Utopia is also struggling with money issues, and thus the ability to expand, since Qwest bought that law that locks them out of certain markets. that law apparently made the original premise for income that most cities originally signed up for is not valid anymore. Sigh....and I was hoping it would be here next year.
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest
| Re: Tell me it isn't so Yeah, the incumbents will do everything to make these projects fail, by hook or by crook, and then they will point to the failure as if to say "See the Muni model doesn't work."
/Sigh
Well, I think they will work, it just needs to be open and on a level playing field.
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"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
| | |
The right facts
@rr.com | UTOPIA and iProvo do not compete. They provide infrastructure anyway, in different cities. iProvo in Provo only and UTOPIA in several other cities. MSTAR offers service through both networks. | |
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest
| Re: Tell me it isn't so said by The right facts :
UTOPIA and iProvo do not compete. They provide infrastructure anyway, in different cities. iProvo in Provo only and UTOPIA in several other cities. MSTAR offers service through both networks.
Ok, you can get Mstar thru both networks, but it's dependant on city. It appeared from the website that you had a choice of which Fiber to get it on. Course U can't go farther without signing up, so I couldn't check that.
My bad.
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"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
| 
diehardspeed
Premium
join:2003-05-14
Salt Lake City, UT
edit:
December 19th, @05:45PM
| I have MStar Internet (50/50Mbps) and IPTV As for pricing... I pay $95/mo for the combined service. No matter how you cut it, it is cheaper to go with Utopia. Even if all your getting is basic internet only ($39.95/mo.)
The TV Pricing is comparable to Satalite service. But once you bundle. Again you can't beat the price.
I am not in "Provo" but am on the Utopia network as well as having MStar for my provider.
I would agree with the customer service being and issue as no one ever seems to know what your talking about nor do they even reply to all your emails.
My biggest concern is still the IPTV freezing at least once every 10 min on the higher channels. It can get even worse than that. One night of Tin Man on SciFi was almost unwatchable.
I have two IPTV boxes and have the same issues with both.
I can't get a strait answer from anyone on the cause/solution to my problem... or that there even is a problem! (according to them) | |
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diehardspeed
Premium
join:2003-05-14
Salt Lake City, UT
| No they are dinky little "Amino" box's.
»www.aminocom.com/products/ipstb/···125.html
Cant remember the model but they look like the one linked above.
They randomly reboot and are pretty easy to crash. They don't hold more than a day or so worth of programing.
They also have an IR codeset that nothing seems to be able to control. I can't get my ReplayTV to change the channels on it. I have the same problem with my Media Center PC.
If anyone has any ideas how to get the codes for either let me know! | |
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Capt Video
@mstarmetro.net
| Re: I have MStar Internet (50/50Mbps) and IPTV The cause of your problem is the Amino 120 HD STB. Have them replace the box with an Amino 500 or Amino 110 and you will see no freezes. These boxes are not HD. But the new HD boxes (not Amino 120) do not freeze at all, but UTOPIA has not purchased any yet!
The Amino 130 or the ADB 5810WX are HD, the ADB is HD/DVR and it does not freeze. The chip set in the Amino 120 is under powered and crap. | |
| 
DotMac
Shill H8r
Premium
join:2007-10-26
Huntington Beach, CA | So much for the shill claims... ...that cable can't compete with a public muni.
Looks like the muni needs to drop their prices to $99 to compete. If they don't, they deserve to lose customers. | |
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batageek
Slave To The Duopoly
Premium
join:2003-01-25
Batavia, IL
| Re: So much for the shill claims... I guess the only point to be made is that muni's can't directly offer retail service in Utah. They can own the infrastructure, but the retail delivery must be done by the private sector.
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»www.tricitybroadband.com | |
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morbo
Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000
clubs: | Re: So much for the shill claims... i don't know about that. all they need for success is what telco and cableco have enjoyed for decades: a monopoly enforced by law. then they will thrive and grow even faster, just like telco and cableco did! | |
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batageek
Slave To The Duopoly
Premium
join:2003-01-25
Batavia, IL | Re: So much for the shill claims... the telcos don't have to share new fiber builds so why should iProvo. Let them offer the service directly.
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»www.tricitybroadband.com | |
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DotMac
Shill H8r
Premium
join:2007-10-26
Huntington Beach, CA
| Re: So much for the shill claims... iProvo is in the infrastructure business where they belong. Content competition is good for consumers. It's up to MStar and others to be competitive.
So long as cable and telco providers aren't engaging in predatory pricing, let the customer churn continue. Perhaps the wholesale rate they're trying to get from MStar is too high. | |
| tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Floral Park, NY | If you can't beat 'em? If you can't beat or match what Verizon is doing with FTTP.. then it's time to pack-it-in...
No caps, no rate hikes, easy to understand billing.. (that last one would beat Verizon, hehe) | |
| | | soothsayer15
join:2002-03-01
Irving, TX
| Re: Maybe The Service Is No Good said by benc :I can't comment on the service personally, as I'm not in a service area. However, if any company is losing customers it's probably because the service is lousy. It could be: 1) Too unreliable - Most people don't expect T1 reliability but if it's bad enough then it's an issue. 2) Too restrictive - Caps, caps on certain traffic, no servers allowed, etc. 3) Customer service knows little or nothing. 4) Installation isn't smooth. 5) Value for dollar. If the price is too high for what they get, people won't want it. Except for point (2), this is why Charter has been having problems. Having worked customer service a long time ago, I can tell you numerous people put up with poor service despite having options because of introductory offers on broadband, like $19.95 for the first few months. Coming as no surprise, those customers would cancel after the promotional period, so ISP's saw they better lock people in with contracts. People complain about bad customer service, but few cancel because of it. The elderly, people who've lost money or an opportunity are they only ones that really go through with canceling. Most people talk big and do nothing. You see that everyday on this site from people that always complaining and beating their chest like a gorilla because they cussed out some rep at the company who probably ending up transferring them to the land of never-ending hold after hearing that nonsense. | |
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest
edit:
December 19th, @07:09PM
| More Info... Mstar: 50/50 for $39.95 a month (3 months free) (WOW OMG)
Veracity: Not clear from website, business only apparently
Nuvont: 10 MBPS, price unclear per month
Mstar... wow that's CHEAP 50 mbps SYMETRICAL for $40.
Price doesn't seem to be an issue....
It seems like the ISP's and services may be the problem, not the network itself. For example weak bundles/poor service maybe?
Mstar offers Digital Phone, IPTV, and Internet for very attractive prices. Something else may be up. Big boys playing dirty? What incumbent cable and phone co serve Utah?
*Edit: Further checking reveals iProvo is in competition with Utopia, another fiber provider, and Utopia is a bit cheaper. Wow, this part of Utah has it good... I'd *love* to be trying to figure out which Fiber provider to pick... especially at these great prices. | |
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See 11 replies to this post | |
Wottcc
Premium
join:2004-11-02
Greeley, CO
 ·MSTAR
| Bad service Iprovo and Utopia are both a good deal in the price category, but Mstar sucks overall. No PPV service, wierd freezing on the tv picture, and the internet routing is lousy. I can get lower pings to many game servers on QWest with interleave than i can with Mstar. The customer service is pretty pathetic too. Compared to the comcast service i have in Colorado, Mstar is a joke. Id switch this address too if i could.  | |
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest
| Re: Bad service This is kinda what I suspect the problem is.
Nothing wrong with the Muni-Fiber network, itself... Just poor services or choices offered by those providing services over it. What they need is a strong partner to deliver what people want, because otherwise, it's a no-brainer.
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
| | | wraptur
join:2007-09-21
| Re: Bad service You are correct on that one. Routing hops to the internet is not the fiber network (on net) that is the ISP's connection to the Internet (off net). Try X-mission's or AT&T's routing bet its great in fact I know it is. That is the great thing about the open net model, just go with a new ISP if the service stinks. That doesn't however work with only 1 Video provider, someone needs to step up and either add that service or a new video provider needs to jump on to increase competition. | |
| RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
·XMission
| From what I heard : From a person who lives down there and from a report on how much money Iprovo is losing, the megacorps have lowered their prices and expanded their service in that area. Geee.....I wonder if THAT is the problem, profits from half the country going to support losses in the Provo area to kill Iprovo? Much less accountability for the big corporations on a city level than for the city. And then I see other articles that contradict what I just wrote. Too many conflicting articles with names like "UTAHANS for Fiscal Responsibility" (made that one up...I think) and when ever I see an agitating article with a name like that implying the masses are involved, I get skeptical.
As another poster pointed out, most folks only look at the $$$$ and not what they get. And lets face it, half the people in the US are happy with dial up, all they want to do is check mail, the occasional picture of the (insert type) may irritate them with the download time, but not enough to spend the $10 or so difference (plus I am told, but have not seen, that Qwest and Comcast have much better advertising).
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| I'm from the government and I'm here to help you; vote for me and I'll set you free. First I have to raise your taxes though. Sorry no you don't get a gift card.
quote:
SPECIAL ONLINE OFFER: Get a $20 Target card when you order an annual plan online.
I wonder who that could be? Could it be TPC? Yes, yes it is TPC.
quote:
Order Online & Save $144
1st month FREE
$54.99 months 2-7
$64.99 thereafter
Big deal a meager 20/20, my dial-up does 56/33.
»www22.verizon.com/content/consum···ices.htm | |
| viperlmw
Premium
join:2005-01-25
·Qwest.net
| For some thoughts on caps.... Caps involving isp's on Iprovo and Utopia, including Mstar, was discussed in this news item last month...
»50Mbps Symmetrical For $39.95
It talks about 100GB caps being the only way these ISPs can "make the financials work". | |
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MSauk
MSauk
Premium
join:2002-01-17
Sandy, UT | Re: For some thoughts on caps.... I am pretty sure they filter their network from pron and what not. | |
| | | RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
·XMission
| Re: For some thoughts on caps.... said by MSauk :I am pretty sure they filter their network from pron and what not. I can not speak for the other providers, but Xmission (and MSTAR claims the same) which is on the Utopia lineup does not filter porn (outside of any legal requirements), unless you request it (a friend of mine had to request the filter due to a weakness in going that way almost wreaking his marriage is how I found out about it). Auto filters have too many generalizations that kill good stuff too indiscriminately to filter all lines, as I find out at work daily and I found out last year that I run a porn site myself with several other filters at different libraries (a weather station site?).
Actually, I do have to correct one thing, there are two providers I know of that do automatic filtering available here, they are run by two major churches. And for the whiners of freedom blah blah, people sign up for those ISPs for the freedom to NOT get random garbage, it is not forced on them.
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
| DSL Oberst
join:2001-11-29 | Say It With Me Now! Lose the caps on torrenting.
Watch the subscriptions take off.
There's the solution, easy and simple. | |
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Say It With Me Now! said by DSL Oberst :Lose the caps on torrenting. Watch the subscriptions take off. There's the solution, easy and simple. Not to worry, I'm from the government and I know what to do.
quote:
In June the city voted to allocate an additional $1.2 million in sales tax revenue to help pay down the project’s debt.
Whaaaa whaaaaa, private business doesn't play fair. They want to keep their customers and compete against us, whaaaa whaaaa.
quote:
One of the factors to which Stewart attributes iProvo’s churn is large corporate competitors Comcast and Qwest Communications dropping their prices in the hopes of not only gaining and keeping market share but also making an example of the muni fiber model. The town’s incumbents are offering $99 triple-plays, Stewart said, while comparable offerings on iProvo are probably around $120.
$99 triple plays are the industry standard not a loss-leader to make an example of muni fiber. Muni broadband of any type will make an example of its self. | |
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Capt Video
@mstarmetro.net
| I don't think the P2P caps are significantly different than other providers (Comcast/Qwest) but I don't know that for sure, I will look into it.
But I'm sure changing that will not do much but get a small number of bandwidth hogs. The general population...the mom and pop next door...do not ever reach anywhere near any cap.
People on this board are not "typical" users. If iProvo could be successful only by getting the geeks that want speed, they would be fine. It's going deeper into mom and pop, grandma and grandpa that is needed to make them successful.
They are getting data customers...hey need more phone and video customers to get a triple play revenue stream from each costly installation. | |
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Say It With Me Now! said by Capt Video :
They are getting data customers...hey need more phone and video customers to get a triple play revenue stream from each costly installation.
The government picks up the cost of installation and the ISPs still can't make it work. You people are in the deep end of the pool over your head. You are throwing tax dollars down a rat hole. You are up agents Ma and Ma is pissed. Too bad Ma wasn't regulated; no that would never work. I love this so much it is better then a warm fuzzy kitten. | |
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MrG
@mstarcorp.com
| I keep reading about the caps limiting subscriptions. Read up on the providers or just call them. There are very few people, even in their college town, who are fighting the caps. It simply isn't an issue for 99.9% of customers.
I've been an Mstar customer for 10 months. No problems with the internet. I love the 50/50 speed, especially uploading photos to my web site. Phone is solid, other than about two or three short outages since becoming a customer. The video service could be better but Mstar doesn't own the set top boxes or the head end where the services come from. They only own the licenses to deliver services. They rely on the network/headend owners to solve the video issues. Their hands are tied but have to take the customer complaints. A tough situation to be in. | |
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Capt Video
@mstarmetro.net
| Re: What kind of crap system did they build? Not sure what you are talking about here. On the iProvo network the units in the home and the entire network, including 911 will work. In UTOPIA some customers use boxes for phone that are not part of the FTTH portal which is not backed up.
As most home have only cordless phone which do not work during a power outage the network is not the main issue.
My iProvo 911 works with or without power to my home. | |
| | | wraptur
join:2007-09-21
| Re: What kind of crap system did they build? That actually is false too! Where did that quote come from? When Utopia customers use an internal or an external telephone adapter both have backup. Which is not the current case on iProvo with the external TA. Also the voice mail indicator does not work on the internal TA because Mstar will not upgrade the customer premise software to support it. Hence anyone who wants to get anything other than a forwarded call to their cell or an email to know when a voice mail arrives is forced to go to an external TA which is not backed up on UPS. Plus you have to remember phone will only work with the old school wired phones not the wireless/mobile phones most people have these days that plug into the wall for power. | |
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: What kind of crap system did they build? said by wraptur :That actually is false too! Where did that quote come from? It came from the fine print on their site. | |
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Tell me it isn't so
What kind of crap system did they build?