 
KoolMoe
Aw Man
Premium
join:2001-02-14
Annapolis, MD
clubs:
 ·Speakeasy
| Find someone better? ...says a spokesman for the mayor's office. "But we've had this exemption in place for more than 90 years and western Massachusetts still doesn't have broadband in place."
Pretty much says it all right there?
Massachusetts should look for other companies who may be willing to build-out fiber in their state. Setup a state-wide franchise system but DON'T award it to Verizon, as long as there's some other company willing to wire the state.
If VZ wants to ditch that whole state, fine. Mass should realize the power they have as a 6 million-strong consumer population.
KM
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Don't Lie - Be Kind - Realize your Potential | |
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morbo
Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000
clubs: | Re: Find someone better? agreed. it's time for at least ONE state to stand up to bullying tactics by Verizon. maybe Massachusetts will be the one... | |
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| said by KoolMoe  :Massachusetts should look for other companies who may be willing to build-out fiber in their state. Setup a state-wide franchise system but DON'T award it to Verizon, as long as there's some other company willing to wire the state. That is the problem with the statewide franchise model. Every model bill being floated includes no provision for denying a franchise (some do not even include the bare minimum requirements that the company be financially and technically capable of deploying service).
Someone like you or me could form a company tomorrow with no financial backing and no experiencing running a cable company and get a statewide franchise if some of these bills pass (and most are going to pass).
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Professional Geographer
Geographic Information Science researcher | |
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AnonProxy
Proxy of Anon
Premium
join:2001-05-12
ß | Re: Find someone better? We can deny the franchise locally but the ONE time someone did the DTE over ruled them as half the members of the DTE board were Verizon lackeys. | |
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| | Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO | So the consumer could speak with their wallet. What's the problem with that? | |
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| Re: Find someone better? said by Skippy25 :So the consumer could speak with their wallet. What's the problem with that? The main problem is that it makes deceptive practice very easy. Since there are numerous legal protections for cable companies in place (on the assumption that they would protect their franchise), it is easier than it is in most companies to pull off fraud against a consumer. Just look at how many of the violations in the Rigas case were dependent on Adelphia being a public company. The feasibility requirement is the main protection the consumer has against a fly by night cable company setting up a false front, collecting install fees, and then collapsing without providing service.
The key for the consumer will obviously be to only go with known names.
That is only the most blatent barebones type of fraud though that can be carried out. Another problem with the current state franchise model is that it allows unregulated transfer of a company. Fortunately the SEC can cover some of the really disasterous problems that can arise there, but you are still talking about some pretty significant fiscal deregulation considering the type of industry involved.
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Professional Geographer
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jslik
That just happened
Premium
join:2006-03-17
clubs: | Re: Find someone better? All good points. The thing to keep in mind with all this franchise reform is that we're going to have to live with these decisions for a long, long time, so we better make sure we're aware of those long-term effects. | |
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BloodRoses
The Purple Faerie
Premium
join:2003-03-17
New York, NY
 ·Cox HSI
edit:
April 23rd, @03:39PM
| Unfortunately, something like 5.7 of that is all in Boston. Most of Western Massachusetts is a desolate wasteland, so it's no surprise that Verizon wouldn't want to invest there (I probably wouldn't either). That said, with all the DSLAM equipment they're moving out of Boston, at least they could give them DSL and make use of the old equipment.
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Cheers,
Stephanie - www.GlitterFaerie.com | |
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jonez
Got Anime?
Premium
join:2004-09-24
Stow, MA
 ·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Find someone better? said by BloodRoses :Unfortunately, something like 5.7 of that is all in Boston. Most of Western Massachusetts is a desolate wasteland, so it's no surprise that Verizon wouldn't want to invest there (I probably wouldn't either). That said, with all the DSLAM equipment they're moving out of Boston, at least they could give them DSL and make use of the old equipment. Firstly, I resent your comment about western mass, most of western mass is very beautiful, it's a nicer 'wasteland' than new york. Secondly, they aren't moving any DSLAM equipment from boston, they haven't even touched boston yet...maybe some of the cities and towns closer, but definitely not boston. Thirdly, they don't move the DSLAM equipment out of a CO when they upgrade it for FIOS, (or atleast my installer told me.) If they did, how are those who are still on dsl and don't want to move to fios going to keep their dsl service?
Posting on something you know little about (or seemingly know little about) doesn't make you look too smart.
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My diet is highly composed of FIBER!
Massachusetts FIOS Map | |
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BloodRoses
The Purple Faerie
Premium
join:2003-03-17
New York, NY
·Cox HSI
edit:
April 24th, @05:07PM
| Re: Find someone better? Last I checked they were replacing all copper, and what was the "upgrade to FIOS" stuff I saw there? I'd imagine as capacity demands decrease due to FIOS deployment that they would find ways to continue to profit off their investment. Also, I meant the "Boston area", so around 495 basically. Didn't think I had to be that specific. 
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Cheers,
Stephanie - www.GlitterFaerie.com | |
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| BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast Formerly ..
| It's not that easy.
The cable companies don't pay this tax ! Why should verizon !
I dread the day I voted for Deval Patrick. This dumb ass and mumbles are driving our state and area into the ground.
You can't afford to breathe around here before they tax you.
These taxes and the must have health insurance is a joke. My pay don't increase to help me with this must have crap. If I am barely getting by on my checks as it is now in this hell hole how will I get by when the "fine" me for not having health care?
I want to know why comcast isn't getting hit and why every company using those poles aren't.
You can't only tax the big guys , it has to be fair.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| Re: Find someone better? said by BosstonesOwn :It's not that easy. The cable companies don't pay this tax ! Why should verizon I want to know why comcast isn't getting hit and why every company using those poles aren't. It looks like the loophole only applies to telephone companies, not to cable companies or utility companies.
So yes, cable companies would already be paying the tax. The other utility companies are definitely already paying the property tax.
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Professional Geographer
Geographic Information Science researcher | |
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| | | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast Formerly ..
| Re: Find someone better? Nope read it again.
Some utilities and some cable co's pay. But some are not paying.
So make it even or don't tax on it.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| Re: Find someone better? said by BosstonesOwn :Nope read it again. Some utilities and some cable co's pay. But some are not paying. So make it even or don't tax on it. I think the idea is to make it even by completely removing the exemption for everyone. Which means that phone companies would get socked the worst since they are taking the most advantage of the current loophole.
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Professional Geographer
Geographic Information Science researcher | |
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| said by marigolds :said by BosstonesOwn :It's not that easy. The cable companies don't pay this tax ! Why should verizon I want to know why comcast isn't getting hit and why every company using those poles aren't. It looks like the loophole only applies to telephone companies, not to cable companies or utility companies. So yes, cable companies would already be paying the tax. The other utility companies are definitely already paying the property tax. After doing some checking up, the loophole definitely applies only to telephone companies. In a court case involving RCN, RCN was denied the ability to use the property tax loophole.
But... a cable company can transfer their assets to the right type of company and claim the loophole. In their case though, the loophole applies only on overhead wires over public roads (not wires over private roads) and they must carry at least one phone call. For phone companies, the exemption can apply to a much wider range of property (as demonstrated below). Other companies get the exemption on the wires, telephone companies get the exemption on wires, poles, and related machinery.
In response, Verizon, MCI, Sprint, and AT&T transfered all of their Massachusetts real property to qualifying "telephone and telegraph" companies. In Verizon's case, they transferred all of their physical assets to a Bermuda-based telephone and telegram company and reduced it's property tax bill from $3 million to $9,307. Sprint transferred its real property including all of its telecommunications switchs in Massachusetts to two Delaware based paper company that qualifies under the law.
There are other companies that also receive the exemption: banks, certain manufacturers, and software companies.
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| radam
join:2004-02-13
Fairfax Station, VA | Massachusetts being New England is waiting for the technology follow-on to fiber! No sense investing too early in broadband. | |
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John Galt
Am I Coming or Going?
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Oceanside, OR
| Re: Find someone better? said by radam :Massachusetts being New England is waiting for the technology follow-on to fiber! No sense investing too early in broadband. You would be stunned to find out how true that is...
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A is A | |
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| | nozzer
join:2004-06-25
Waltham, MA | Re: Find someone better? Oh please. Eastern Mass is one of Verizon's biggest cash cows. Its occasionally been the wealthiest metro area on the face of the earth, and still ranks in the top 10. Why would they lump it in with ME,VT and NH? | |
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Find someone better? said by nozzer :Oh please. Eastern Mass is one of Verizon's biggest cash cows. Its occasionally been the wealthiest metro area on the face of the earth, and still ranks in the top 10. Why would they lump it in with ME,VT and NH? All pork eaters that want more then they are worth. | |
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| BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast Formerly ..
| Re: We are living this now... I have worked out there, it's to desolate and mountainous for cellular , you guys think anything else can be done there ?
I have worked all of western mass on the cell towers and power line infrastructure. There is no cost affective way to provide broadband to the masses there.
You would need to build a muni and literally string fiber along the transmission lines. I know National Grid has fiber out there , so it can be done, but who is going to pay ? You can't ask us tax payers out in Boston to pop for your needs.
Build a muni with fiber (good luck there) or using the motorola canopy system. Maybe wimax , but I can say that it is not cheap and you guys will be paying an arm and a leg just for access to the system.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
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AnonProxy
Proxy of Anon
Premium
join:2001-05-12
ß
| Re: We are living this now... The issue is that Verizon et al have been given monetary incentives to extend access of DSL into the rural areas.
They have done nothing except cherry pick and use the incentives to deploy greater service in Eastern MA.
MA has even gone so far as to put in conduit along I-91 and the MASSPike free for use to verizon and any carrier that would use it to help with this problem...to date, nothing.
The "best" part is that the original rural phone service tax credit (done in 1915) hasn't even extended reliable phone service to some of these areas. This is sort of like a state version of the USF...to extend basic phone and now broadband service but all it's done was increase profits for verizon in MA. | |
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wdoa
join:2001-10-16
Spencer, MA
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by BosstonesOwn : You can't ask us tax payers out in Boston to pop for your needs. Hmm, seems like those of us in Central and Western Mass are subsidizing you Boston folk everytime we ride on the pike. So yes I agree, let's just make sure only people inside Rt 128 get the bill for the Big Dig. | |
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AnonProxy
Proxy of Anon
Premium
join:2001-05-12
ß
| Re: We are living this now... What some are missing is the tax break was to encourage the expansion of RURAL telephone service. Considering that they haven't even fulfilled that, we (western MA) are suffering because we've subsidized Verizon to the point of expanding FIOS et al while people in Western MA still don't even have BASIC reliable phone service. | |
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tc1uscg
join:2005-03-09
Saint Clair Shores, MI
·Comcast
·WOW Internet and C..
·VoiceEclipse
edit:
April 23rd, @09:27PM
| said by BosstonesOwn :I have worked out there, it's to desolate and mountainous for cellular , you guys think anything else can be done there ? I have worked all of western mass on the cell towers and power line infrastructure. There is no cost affective way to provide broadband to the masses there. You would need to build a muni and literally string fiber along the transmission lines. I know National Grid has fiber out there , so it can be done, but who is going to pay ? You can't ask us tax payers out in Boston to pop for your needs. Build a muni with fiber (good luck there) or using the motorola canopy system. Maybe wimax , but I can say that it is not cheap and you guys will be paying an arm and a leg just for access to the system. On that note, why not do what the Glasgow Ky electric company did. Provided BB to homes, cheaply, using it's electrical lines. At least they make it seem/sound simple.. 
»www.epblan.com/ | |
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| | | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast Formerly ..
| Re: We are living this now... said by tc1uscg :said by BosstonesOwn :I have worked out there, it's to desolate and mountainous for cellular , you guys think anything else can be done there ? I have worked all of western mass on the cell towers and power line infrastructure. There is no cost affective way to provide broadband to the masses there. You would need to build a muni and literally string fiber along the transmission lines. I know National Grid has fiber out there , so it can be done, but who is going to pay ? You can't ask us tax payers out in Boston to pop for your needs. Build a muni with fiber (good luck there) or using the motorola canopy system. Maybe wimax , but I can say that it is not cheap and you guys will be paying an arm and a leg just for access to the system. On that note, why not do what the Glasgow Ky electric company did. Provided BB to homes, cheaply, using it's electrical lines. At least they make it seem/sound simple.. » www.epblan.com/ Because you do that and people cry about it as rf pollution because it interferes with the hams.
wdoa last time I checked it don't cost you $3 to go over a bridge or into a tunnel. You pay for what you use out there. Bet you will love that tunnel if you ever have to come to boston to use the airport or for any other things.
Anonproxy trust me I know where they have conduits and what is lit in the area. You don't understand the issue. They can't get fiber to main of the co's there. And it's a cost issue versus time issue. It's way to expensive to string fiber to get to many co's out there. They can't run it up the main high ways then branch out. Fiber can't be run reliably like that.
It can cost over 50 k a mile in bad areas like western mass. Do you think if they pull these tax benes. you guys will ever see fiber ? You live in rural america man , you can't expect a company that is trying to make a profit to just run out and string you guys a data link. It's not that easy. Wimax may be your future.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
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| | ddwibb
join:2004-09-02
Holyoke, MA
| said by BosstonesOwn : but who is going to pay ? You can't ask us tax payers out in Boston to pop for your needs. Excuse me!
I live in Holyoke, the poorest city in New England. We are down $30M a year in overall taxes payed out to the Boston area, to pay for the Big Dig.
You would think since Holyoke is bad off, it would get more than it's fair share back, but for over 20 years, we have been raped by Boston. Also worth noting that Newton, roght outside of Boston, and the richest town the US, gets back more than it puts in. | |
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| | slayerusa
join:2003-09-01
West Warren, MA
| said by BosstonesOwn :You can't ask us tax payers out in Boston to pop for your needs. Are you kidding me?
I had to pop for that hole in the ground you call the big dig out there!
Wonder why our roads and bridges in western mass have not been maintained in the last 10 years.
THE BIG PIG that's why.
Last time i looked at the map the mass border did not stop at the 495 belt.
So share the wealth Boston and pony up for some western mass development. | |
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bigjimc
join:2003-04-21
Middleboro, MA | This is what I said When someone said what is the Gov doing...
»They are doing this
See.....I am ordering my FIOS today. and I will have TV by mid May.
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Just my 2 cents...Flame Lightly... | |
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Pathfinder
Dazed Confused
Premium
join:2000-03-26
Mount Vernon, NY
·Verizon Online DSL
| Makes sense to me said by e-trade :
According to Mike Widmer, president of the non-partisan watchdog Massachusetts Taxpayers Foundation, it's a matter of "Economics 101" if the tax break is removed.
"There is major internal competition within companies like Verizon for capital spending," said Widmer. "When you impose a major new tax on a given industry, it would be naive to think it won't have an impact on companies' willingness to spend in the state."
Makes sense to me.
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support the Hunley | |
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| Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO | Re: Makes sense to me It would make sense to me that if they don't want to pay the State fees, they should leave the state. | |
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Pathfinder
Dazed Confused
Premium
join:2000-03-26
Mount Vernon, NY | Re: Makes sense to me Hey that would make sense to me too. But who would come in and how much would the state have to pay them to come in?
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support the Hunley | |
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest
| Must be nice to be a big Corporation... ... so you can demand special privileges, no taxes, taxpayer dollars to your company, have laws passed that protect you and remove competition.
IMHO All this CRAP should be illegal. You always hear companies talk about a "Level Playing Field" but what they really want is a "Private Playground" with no competition.
Yes, I know these companies do this all over the USA. It should be banned everywhere. Either everyone gets the benefit, or nobody does, it's that simple.
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"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
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inteller
Sociopaths always win.
join:2003-12-08
Tulsa, OK
 ·Cingular Wireless
| WTF comment of the week ""But we've had this exemption in place for more than 90 years and western Massachusetts still doesn't have broadband in place."
Well no shit sherlock.....broadband has only been around for the last few decades...not that I'm defending Verizon, but at least get your comments right. | |
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AnonProxy
Proxy of Anon
Premium
join:2001-05-12
ß
| Re: WTF comment of the week The point being that this money was supposed to improve infrastructure in Western MA. To that end Verizon claims that the "wires are old and can not handle DSL". Well all this time they were supposed to use this tax credit of sorts to make sure that the technology for voice service would work, which in turn would make it easier to extend broadband.
Short version, Verison just used tax exemption to increase profits and to upgrade service in markets where there's more profits, when they were supposed to upgrade service where there was going to be LESS profits.
Think MA USF. | |
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dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
| Um... so what? The state is talking about a tax increase of $50 million dollars a year on land-based services- of course Verizon is going to fight back.
I fail to see where they're asking for "special treatment" or "corporate welfare"; just the ability to deploy without new taxes or having to negotiate terms with dozens of different municipalities. It would be much different if they were asking for a state grant or something.
I don't understand how so many people complain about their FIOS deployment being too slow or lack of complete broadband coverage, but in favor of almost any and all regulatory and financial obstacles to doing so. | |
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tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Floral Park, NY
| problems with deployment... Verizon made several claims about the quality, speed of deployment, network upgrades, and the commitment that all areas of their "FootPrint" would be viable for FIOS. It seems that Verizon in 2007, is trying make the case that is not necessarily so and wants more incentive(s) in marginal states like Mass.
If Verizon can't justify return on investment in the state, they could propose exempting property taxes in the uneconomical areas to promote deployment. This way Verizon can have part of their subsidy as long as they are diligent about deploying unserved areas (western Mass). This could be offered in exchange for fast-track franchise passage, otherwise those central offices will be left out of deployment. And, if the parties can't agree to that then, Verizon should leave the State by selling off to AT&T / QWEST. State's will only bend over backwards so much for a company who has at times not been a good steward in terms of maintenance, upgrades and empowering technology (upgrades such as dsl and now FTTP). For some towns, Verizon may just have to have the "WILLPOWER" to say, hey, screw the numbers of what it costs, let's just get this done, and what comes of it comes. To my knowledge, Verizon has not done this yet, anywhere without considerable eyeballing the ROI and local regulations a few dozen times.
Umm, btw, do any of the cable companies have exemption from property taxes on their assets in the state?
Just wondering. | |
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| BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast Formerly ..
| Re: problems with deployment... said by tmc8080 :Umm, btw, do any of the cable companies have exemption from property taxes on their assets in the state? Just wondering. They are exempt, as well as some utilities companies.
Verizon is just asking for them not to take away the break for now. But this state is so fuxed up because of spending that they need the income. So they go after the big guy. But the won't go after #2 or #3.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
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i6u9469
@myvzw.com
| Re: problems with deployment... I dont think this really about taxes, this is about the towns in Mass negotiating with Verizon for ridiculous amounts of money and other forms of compensation. From what I understand some of the towns want roads resurfaced, street light+traffic lights replaced and other totally irrelevant things each town decides. How long can a company even with pockets as deep as Verizon's stay afloat- the fiber deployment is already be an estimated 23 billion dollars nationwide. If you tack on another $200,000 per town- thats alot of money no matter how big a company is. I think this is more of a scare tactic than anything else. fios has already been deployed in most of the areas surrounding boston, some may call that "cherry picking"- i call that smart business. There is no way in hell even a company like Verizon could afford to put fiber up in the majority of western Mass- too much area and too few subscribers. | |
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karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
Nashua, NH
·Fairpoint Communic..
| Time to take back what is ours Verizon has a 50 million dollar tax break, every year, since 1915. Granted, 50 million today is only about 2.5 million in 1915, but amortizing that money over 90 years would give us a total tax benefit of about 24 BILLION dollars. I say it's time to retroactively tax verizon for the 20 billion they have stolen from us, and use the money to wire EVERY home in the state. there are about 300 towns in MA. I can guarantee you that every town could wire every house with the 80 million each town would get. It's time to stand up, and take back what is rightfully ours from the fat cat megacorps.
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Stick it to the MAN. Support your local torrent sites. Proudly providing 100mb of upstream for all your TV, Movie, and MP3 needs. | |
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JamesPC
join:2005-10-12
Orange, CA | word Screw Verizon, Power to the People. | |
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Alex G Bell
join:2002-07-02
Boston, MA
| 90 Years Without Broadband "But we've had this exemption in place for more than 90 years and western Massachusetts still doesn't have broadband in place."
Yup, my great-grandpa tried to get Teletype in his home in 1917 and the company said his town was not wired for it.
Seriously, the Mayor has a point, Verizon is just looking for a free ride. Not to mention all the government fines they get out of paying. This is a very greedly company.
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"Remember, Comrade, people who are willing to destroy an efficient telephone system may not be playing with a full deck." | |
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Dominokat
Premium
join:2002-08-06
Boothbay, ME
clubs:
edit:
April 23rd, @09:44PM
| Sell Verizon will just dump Massachusetts, like they did the rest of New England, for not being profitable. AKA. Not giving in to them.
Verizon sucks. Period. | |
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| majortom1029
join:2006-10-19
Lindenhurst, NY
| Re: 90 Years Without Broadband How is the mayer looking for a free ride. VErizon has not been paying property taxes at all since 1915.
It sure loosk like verizon is the one getting the free ride.
when you work your job you expect to be paid right? So basically verizon isnt paying property tax so they should have to do something in return. | |
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viperpa33s
Why Me?
Premium
join:2002-12-20
Bradenton, FL
·Bright House
| Who cares It's a threat, nothing more. Verizon knows Massachuesetts like a lot of other states will bow under pressure. So Verizon thinks they have nothing to worry about. Who cares if Verizon holds out on FIOS upgrades. Verizon will be the ones that lose and that is money.
As for the 90 million, you honestly think it would be used for tax relief? They will just raise your taxes someplace else so the taxpayer gains nothing. | |
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batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Who cares said by viperpa33s :It's a threat, nothing more. Verizon knows Massachuesetts like a lot of other states will bow under pressure. So Verizon thinks they have nothing to worry about. Who cares if Verizon holds out on FIOS upgrades. Verizon will be the ones that lose and that is money. As for the 90 million, you honestly think it would be used for tax relief? They will just raise your taxes someplace else so the taxpayer gains nothing. How long before Sprint brings fiber to Sparta? Oh that's right, Sprint sold you out. | |
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viperpa33s
Why Me?
Premium
join:2002-12-20
Bradenton, FL
·Bright House
| Re: Who cares said by viperpa33s :
said by batterup :
How long before Sprint brings fiber to Sparta? Oh that's right, Sprint sold you out. Sprint didn't do much for Sparta I agree to that. They never upgraded the lines like they should of. Who knows what Embarq is going to do. I won't count my chickens before they hatch.
Is really not to worried about it anymore since I will be moving to Florida in about 2 months. Ahhhhhhh sunshine and warm weather.  | |
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Massachusetts Complains About Verizon Threats
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