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Cohen Fires Back at Cuban
Internet bandwidth and p2p cat fight ensues...
Digg users note that BitTorrent creator Bram Cohen has responded to Mark Cuban's recent prediction that BitTorrent is severely flawed. "Maybe he's talking trash because he invested $1.7 million in a 'BitTorrent-like' company," says Cohen, referring to Cuban's investment into Red Swoosh. "That said, he does has some claim to punditry in the bandwidth space because his $5 billion sale of broadcast.com for Yahoo stock set the precedent for valuing bandwidth supply companies based on how quickly they flush money down the toilet." Cuban continues his comments below the linked LiveJournal entry.
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odog
Minister of internet doohickies
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Atlanta, GA

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odog

Premium Member

the only bad thing....

Until BT can shed the stigma of being P2P... it is pretty hard to get it mainstream.

BT may be 55% of the internet's bandwidth, but 99% of that bandwidth is illegal

Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
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join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL

Maxo

Premium Member

Re: the only bad thing....

said by odog:

Until BT can shed the stigma of being P2P... it is pretty hard to get it mainstream.
I think you mean the stigma of being a tool for pirates. BT will always be P2P. Nothing wrong with that. Skype is P2P and it has no stigma.

odog
Minister of internet doohickies
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join:2001-08-05
Atlanta, GA

odog

Premium Member

Re: the only bad thing....

I see your point, but in most circles... P2P = piracy.

Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
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join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL

Maxo

Premium Member

Re: the only bad thing....

said by odog:

I see your point, but in most circles... P2P = piracy.
Very true. Especially when they watch the news. Newsmen can simply swap the words P2P and piracy around as desired and most people's brains would process the same thing.
bohn
join:2006-05-30
Scarborough, ON

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P2P is big business. Even the catch-phrase of the second millenium. Many are stealing ideas from the P2Pers. Also known as taking pointers from the P2Pers. This piracy malarky is the jealous people with dial-up or the unfortunate few who live in the wrong country like Canada and are capped to the hilt. I'm just waiting for this thing to go full swing man everybody getting some modern day connections all this HD dvd jargon. The wondrous age of bits and bytes and the downtrodden who cry when they should be slapped silly as they do nothing more than sit on their fat ass and complain. If you can't beat them join them. Plonk.

karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
Moscow, ID

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But, you've made an interesting point. If 99% of 55% of the internet bandwidth (i.e. 54%) is 'illegal', then isn't the law wrong? I mean, if we say over 50% of the traffic on the internet is 'illegal', then, by definition, it's NOT immoral.

"Group morality develops from shared concepts and beliefs and is often codified to regulate behavior within a culture or community. Various defined actions come to be called moral or immoral." I would argue, if the majority of the population engages in said beliefs, then no matter what the law says, our moral compass has decided that what we are doing is NOT immoral. There are many laws that tried to codify morality, but that does not mean they are good laws (prohibition comes to mind).

So, to summarize. If everyone is doing it, then it's the socially accepted standard for society, thus, cannot be considered immoral, notwithstanding what the 'law' says.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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join:2002-05-02
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pnh102

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Re: the only bad thing....

said by karlmarx:

If everyone is doing it, then it's the socially accepted standard for society, thus, cannot be considered immoral, notwithstanding what the 'law' says.
Heh... I saw someone try to use this legal defense in court to get out of a speeding ticket. It didn't work out too well for him

Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium Member
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL

1 edit

Maxo

Premium Member

Re: the only bad thing....

said by pnh102:
said by karlmarx:

If everyone is doing it, then it's the socially accepted standard for society, thus, cannot be considered immoral, notwithstanding what the 'law' says.
Heh... I saw someone try to use this legal defense in court to get out of a speeding ticket. It didn't work out too well for him
What's moral and what's legal are two different things.

Edit: Oh crap, I posted a response that has to do with karlmarx See Profile posting. Dang it!

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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join:2002-05-02
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pnh102

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Re: the only bad thing....

said by Maxo:

What's moral and what's legal are two different things.
Oh I know, but it was still fun to hear everyone in court snicker as the guy said "everyone else was going 75 in a 55, why pick on me?"
Cod2
join:2000-07-05
Kernersville, NC

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said by karlmarx:

But, you've made an interesting point. If 99% of 55% of the internet bandwidth (i.e. 54%) is 'illegal', then isn't the law wrong? I mean, if we say over 50% of the traffic on the internet is 'illegal', then, by definition, it's NOT immoral.

"Group morality develops from shared concepts and beliefs and is often codified to regulate behavior within a culture or community. Various defined actions come to be called moral or immoral." I would argue, if the majority of the population engages in said beliefs, then no matter what the law says, our moral compass has decided that what we are doing is NOT immoral. There are many laws that tried to codify morality, but that does not mean they are good laws (prohibition comes to mind).

So, to summarize. If everyone is doing it, then it's the socially accepted standard for society, thus, cannot be considered immoral, notwithstanding what the 'law' says.
Back in the 1940's & 1950's, I would suggest that over 50% of the German population didn't think that concentration camps, exterminating the jewish population & the "final solution" was wrong. By your line of reasoning, are you suggesting that it wasn't immoral?

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

Premium Member

Re: the only bad thing....

said by Cod2:

[Back in the 1940's & 1950's, I would suggest that over 50% of the German population didn't think that concentration camps, exterminating the jewish population & the "final solution" was wrong. By your line of reasoning, are you suggesting that it wasn't immoral?
Of course he is. He espouses the theory of "moral relativism" ( »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mo ··· lativism )where there is no right or wrong except what anyone says it is.

karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
Moscow, ID

karlmarx

Member

Re: the only bad thing....

If the choice is moral relativism vs fundy christianity, I choose relativism. If the choice is between moral relativism and muslim fundamentalism, again, I choose relativism. In my mind, there's no difference between a suicide bomber and a right wing abortion clinic bomber. Both groups are filled with morons who espouse only THEIR world view.

But, to the subject at hand. If society tolerates it (and we DO tolerate P2P traffic), then it's MORALLY acceptable. What gives YOU the right to judge anyone? It's a moronic christian belief system that's led to the death of more people throughout history than ANY other belief system.

Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
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join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL

Maxo

Premium Member

Re: the only bad thing....

You are kind of on the right path. You see the Nazi Conservatives want you to eat babies, but only after they are born. After the sacrifice Martians will build giant pyramids to direct the inner-energy of the earth for a mass New World Order facilitating a new found era of misogyny and complete slavery of the non reptilian half-breed race.
Finally the pretend bird flu scare will finally be realized for what it is; a tool to legitimize inserting GPS chips into everyone that will record all of our movements, conversations, and thoughts. The Dems are in it with the Aliens. They're building landing strips for gay Martians.
Obviously, we must legalize P2P if we want to stop this. It's clear and you BBR idiots can't seem to grasp it.

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

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Re: the only bad thing....

What about the megacorps? Aren't they involved in this too?

Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
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join:2002-11-04
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Maxo

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Re: the only bad thing....

said by pnh102:

What about the megacorps? Aren't they involved in this too?
You have no idea.
moonpuppy (banned)
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD

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said by karlmarx:

But, to the subject at hand. If society tolerates it (and we DO tolerate P2P traffic), then it's MORALLY acceptable. What gives YOU the right to judge anyone? It's a moronic christian belief system that's led to the death of more people throughout history than ANY other belief system.
People tolerated drunk driving until too many people were getting killed. Same goes for speeding. It's o.k. until someone going too fast and causes a fatal accident.

AnonDOG
@freeantennas.com

AnonDOG to karlmarx

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Karl;

Clearly you are a religious man. Your moral relativism actually has roots in a modern religion.

The long and short of your definition is, "The whole of the law shall be do what thou wilt?"
»www.dowhatthouwilt.com/

pkarlos_76
join:2004-08-24
Edmonton, AB

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said by Cod2:

said by karlmarx:

But, you've made an interesting point. If 99% of 55% of the internet bandwidth (i.e. 54%) is 'illegal', then isn't the law wrong? I mean, if we say over 50% of the traffic on the internet is 'illegal', then, by definition, it's NOT immoral.

"Group morality develops from shared concepts and beliefs and is often codified to regulate behavior within a culture or community. Various defined actions come to be called moral or immoral." I would argue, if the majority of the population engages in said beliefs, then no matter what the law says, our moral compass has decided that what we are doing is NOT immoral. There are many laws that tried to codify morality, but that does not mean they are good laws (prohibition comes to mind).

So, to summarize. If everyone is doing it, then it's the socially accepted standard for society, thus, cannot be considered immoral, notwithstanding what the 'law' says.
Back in the 1940's & 1950's, I would suggest that over 50% of the German population didn't think that concentration camps, exterminating the jewish population & the "final solution" was wrong. By your line of reasoning, are you suggesting that it wasn't immoral?
The truth is the average joe public in Germany had barely an inkling of the scope of what was going on during the War!!! Most soldiers on any side of the war, have an immense amount of trouble reconciling the events.....this tragedy happened and for most people was incomprehensible. I resent you comparing your issue to Germany's genocide, it doesn't even compare on moral, psychological damage, or the immense physical harm that WWII cause for everyone on both sides.
bohn
join:2006-05-30
Scarborough, ON

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All they had to do was shift the balance of wealth. The race itself is harmless as could be seem during the war when they wouldn't even fight for their own country.
openbox9
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Not everyone is doing it. Just because something is not immoral, doesn't make it legal.

odog
Minister of internet doohickies
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Morality is a personal judgment, and doesn't really have any relevance to the question of legality. I won't get in an analogy war, but using your logic genocide could very well be justified. It certainly has happened before, in Rwanda, Yugoslavia, Germany, etc etc etc.

FFH5
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Tavistock NJ

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said by karlmarx:

But, you've made an interesting point. If 99% of 55% of the internet bandwidth (i.e. 54%) is 'illegal', then isn't the law wrong? I mean, if we say over 50% of the traffic on the internet is 'illegal', then, by definition, it's NOT immoral.
NO.

Speeding is illegal, even though the majority of people do speed. But if you get caught, you still pay the fine. And that fact that everyone speeds doesn't change the fact that it is wrong and puts others in danger.

nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
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join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA

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nixen

Premium Member

Re: the only bad thing....

said by FFH5:
said by karlmarx:

But, you've made an interesting point. If 99% of 55% of the internet bandwidth (i.e. 54%) is 'illegal', then isn't the law wrong? I mean, if we say over 50% of the traffic on the internet is 'illegal', then, by definition, it's NOT immoral.
NO.

Speeding is illegal, even though the majority of people do speed. But if you get caught, you still pay the fine. And that fact that everyone speeds doesn't change the fact that it is wrong and puts others in danger.
Breathing puts yourself and others in danger. If you promise to stop doing that, I promise to stop speeding.

-tom
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

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Immoral and illegal are 2 different things you clown.

Your quote is nothing more then someone trying to spin immoral /illegal for their own benefit. Which is typical of this society that can't accept anything as black and white but must make a gray area out of everything so no one gets offended or has their feelings hurt.

You are also mistaken a majority of traffic as a majority of user's. You can have very few users using a vast majority of the bandwidth and that does not make it acceptable by society standards.

FLea973
Premium Member
join:2001-02-27
Morristown, NJ

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You are missing something in your group morality claim. I believe it requires the majority of people - the above stats account for traffic - not users. So, if you say that 55% of the traffic is P2P... add that to the what .. 20% (if I recall) traffic being spam... that leaves roughly 25% of traffic for everyone else - government, business (legit), and every-day law abiding citizens... and even then, most of that 25% probably goes to porn.

Every ISP report that has come out reports that the VAST majority of their bandwidth is used by a VAST minority (5-10%) of its user base. Nope, no group morality claim there.

For a stupid analogy - for a given amount of nose picking in public, if 55% of the public does it... thats group morality; but if only 5% of the people do 95% of the public picking - nope, you do not have group morality.
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

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to karlmarx
said by karlmarx:

But, you've made an interesting point. If 99% of 55% of the internet bandwidth (i.e. 54%) is 'illegal', then isn't the law wrong? I mean, if we say over 50% of the traffic on the internet is 'illegal', then, by definition, it's NOT immoral.

"Group morality develops from shared concepts and beliefs and is often codified to regulate behavior within a culture or community. Various defined actions come to be called moral or immoral." I would argue, if the majority of the population engages in said beliefs, then no matter what the law says, our moral compass has decided that what we are doing is NOT immoral. There are many laws that tried to codify morality, but that does not mean they are good laws (prohibition comes to mind).

So, to summarize. If everyone is doing it, then it's the socially accepted standard for society, thus, cannot be considered immoral, notwithstanding what the 'law' says.
I think its time for the RIAA and MPAA to make a license to be on the internet and make the internet illegal in general, since it is "mostly" used for piracy.
openbox9
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said by odog:

BT may be 55% of the internet's bandwidth, but 99% of that bandwidth is illegal
Did you just PDOOMA those stats?

odog
Minister of internet doohickies
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odog

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Re: the only bad thing....

You know it! But ya know... I'm probably wrong It's probably closer to 99.9% Regardless of the exact number it is the lions share of overall BT traffic illegal. Unfortunately it is also a nearly impossible statistic to reliably gather.
openbox9
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openbox9

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Re: the only bad thing....

said by odog:

Unfortunately it is also a nearly impossible statistic to reliably gather.
Then the stat, no matter what the number is or who states it, is irrelevant. The **IAs can "make up" whatever statistic they desire (in their favor of course). The root of the issue is how to support BT or kill it off altogether, not whether 99.99999% of BT traffic is illegal.

pkarlos_76
join:2004-08-24
Edmonton, AB

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said by odog:

You know it! But ya know... I'm probably wrong It's probably closer to 99.9% Regardless of the exact number it is the lions share of overall BT traffic illegal. Unfortunately it is also a nearly impossible statistic to reliably gather.
I suppose the few million linux users out there downloading their linux distros using torrents is the .1%???? Or the 8 million World of Warcraft players downloading their patches is .1%???

FiL25
Premium Member
join:2005-08-16
Silver Spring, MD

FiL25

Premium Member

Re: the only bad thing....

Exactly...

Anyone can pull stat's out their ass and claim "its nearly impossible to statistically gather".

The hell? LOL. Why even put up stats then? Just say "Its my opinion" instead of sticking to your guns and make-believe numbers...

Plus, I see many hypocrites bashing a service we know they use!

kyramilan
join:2006-11-26
Pensacola, FL

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Cuban = Jerk that sold a USELESS Website to Yahoo! for $5 billion.

WOULD YOU PLEASE SHUT UP, MARKIE CUBAN!
utp216
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Red Lion, PA

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said by odog:

Until BT can shed the stigma of being P2P... it is pretty hard to get it mainstream.

BT may be 55% of the internet's bandwidth, but 99% of that bandwidth is illegal
I don't think the dvd images of Fedora Core I downloaded via Bittorrent are illegal in any way. 99% is a little over the top IMO.

Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
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join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL

Maxo

Premium Member

RTFA

It's a good write from Bram:
Clearly, digital computers test great. In application however, they have a ton of challenges.
Clearly, the internet tests great. In application however, it has a ton of challenges.
Clearly, BitTorrent tests great. In application however, it has a ton of challenges.

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI

Nightfall

MVM

I love the media spin

Ok, first off lets be honest here. Cuban didn't say bittorrent was doomed. He did point out the shortcomings of bittorrent, and those shortcomings are quite true.

He pointed out that there are many conflicting clients and no standard. Uh, true. Look at the amount of banned clients on different torrent sites, the clients that cheat ratios, and prevent uploading, and so on.

He pointed out that many end users don't know how it works. Once again, true. I have had to go over to people's homes to set it up, and help walk people through the setup. There are some people who want to get it working, but can't because of firewalls, routers, and so on.

I will quote my analysis on bandwidth savings and seeding problems from a previous post...
quote:
Bandwidth savings for end user and the problem with seeding - Cuban says that bandwidth can be a problem and TorrentFreak says that more and more people are going after unlimited plans. Lets rephrase here...More and more people who are broadband aficionados are asking for unlimited plans. The bulk of the people out there don't understand how it works and don't download a lot. If the email is coming in and their webpages are popping up, whats the problem? Not everyone is a broadband expert out there. As for uploading while downloading, TorrentFreak is right on that. Users just don't care while they are downloading. If the download gets completed though and they shut the torrent off, Cuban is right. You aren't going to be able to upload as fast as you download so if you download 4gb and you only upload 250 meg and shut the torrent off, how are other people going to get that file as fast as you did?

Karl, I normally don't have a problem with the way you title your news stories, but this is getting ridiculous.

Read Mark Cubans reply to Bram's post. You will see that what I am saying is quite true.

••••••••••••

BenPTK
@ameritech.net

BenPTK

Anon

Let us not forget...

That weather we use the moral relativity argument or not, just because 50+% of the TRAFFIC is 'illegal' most DEFINATELY does not mean that 50% of People or even 50% of Internet users are transferring 'illegal' traffic.

Ben

jaxdomino
join:2001-12-01
Jacksonville, FL

jaxdomino

Member

oh my...

You guys are making my head spin. Everyone do what THEY feel is right! If it's wrong to someone else, that doesn't make it wrong, it just makes it offensive to that other person. That's my thought.

MikeStammer
No prison can hold me
Premium Member
join:2002-12-26
Fortville, IN

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MikeStammer

Premium Member

Re: oh my...

said by jaxdomino:

You guys are making my head spin. Everyone do what THEY feel is right! If it's wrong to someone else, that doesn't make it wrong, it just makes it offensive to that other person. That's my thought.
sarcasm
mmm, now thats some good advice
/sarcasm

Read this:

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mo ··· lativism

thats your position and its bad bad bad m'kay?

jaxdomino
join:2001-12-01
Jacksonville, FL

jaxdomino

Member


richardpor
Fur it up
join:2003-04-19
Portland, OR

2 edits

richardpor

Member

Point Cuban Or Game Set Match

Cuban response blew Cohen out of the water. I would not have put so much emphases on bandwidth, a tem I felt has been much abused. The problem is upload capacity, ISP Terms of service and human nature. For the latter is it will be a cold day in hell before I give strangers access to to my computer. If I had Bit Torrent, I refuse to use the program, I would shut it down as soon as my download is completed.

Another way to put my skepticism of Bit Torrent is where the (positive) cash flow? How do you make a profit? Give away a program so people can download pirated content for free?? A real business sells good and service. Even a no-college educated technician and part time EBay seller I understand this. I getting a sense of Déjà vu, Bit Torrent the company remind me of the original Napster. Both companies distributed methods or programs under a quasi-business created by the delusional ideas of the so-called entrepreneur. The problem is no product or services are exchanged, just transferred of user looted content.
This make me want to know what in hell they are teaching in business school. Perhaps Dennis Prager is right, except in some instances, college is a complete waste of time and produced some messed up puppies.

C_9084
Kill The Socialists
Premium Member
join:2001-03-19

C_9084

Premium Member

Re: Point Cuban Or Game Set Match

bram is a moron. always has been, always will be
Eric Martin
join:2005-06-19
66308

Eric Martin

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Cuban's reply

»bramcohen.livejournal.co ··· d=516461

No comments about it??

Cuban gets testy.
-----------------

Get a clue
mcuban
2007-02-01 07:26 pm UTC (link)
First, I didnt say BT was doomed. I said it has challenges. But lets address your challenges Bram. First, its obvious in many ways, that your math is influenced by your lack of business experience.

Internet capacity is not infinite in the last mile. Whats more, since flavors of Ethernet is the primary protocol used in the last mile, you get diminishing returns as bandwidth usage increases. So if the number of BT client users on the network segment providing bandwidth to your home or office grows, so that there is a doubling of bandwidth from 55pct, that segment doesnt miraculously expand to absorb the growth. It all slows down. Alot

Unfortunately for you,ISPs crack down on heavy bandwidth users, particularly uploaders and enforce their TOS.

By definition, seeders create upstream bandwidth. The ISPs dont want to see more upstream usage Bram, i know its a tough concept for you, but in the mind of the ISP, upstream use = bad. MOre upstream b/w use = more bad. Which in turn pushes them not to increase the bandwidth available to end users, but to evaluate where the upstream use is coming from and look at shutting it off and throttling it. Call me crazy, but that equates to a challenge for the BT universe.

I like your complexity analogies. You are right. BT has huge challenges. It works great for stealing content. Getting people to contribute bandwidth in order to get content for free. To quote Borat "Thats Nice".
But as you know yourself, you havent been able to make a real business out of content being bought and sold using BT. Could it be that there are users, the ones willing to pay for content, have challenges using the clients out there now ?

What did you pitch me with ...70mm clients ? Yet when I asked you to commit that those 70mm people would be willing to buy just a few thousand units, you backed down. Walmart, Blockbuster, MOvie Gallery, Best Buy, etc, etc, same content , bigger committment. No problem. But you have more "clients". They can sell content. You cant. Or maybe it was couldnt Bram.

How is the content business these days Bram ?

A quick trip to your site and I dont see anyone buying anything. Actually, its hare to find a way to buy anything from the site. Is that the plan ?

This is what the press release said
"BitTorrent customers will be able to select from a variety of popular film titles from 20th Century Fox, Kadokawa, Lionsgate, Palm, Paramount and Starz Media such as "X-Men The Last Stand," "Ringu," "Saw III," "13 Tzameti," "Mission: Impossible III," and "Ghost in the Shell." TV programming will include hits like "Attack of the Show" from G4; "24" and "Prison Break" from 20th Century Fox; "City of Men" from Palm; "Laguna Beach" and "Celebrity Deathmatch" from MTV: Music Television; Emmy and Peabody-Award winning "South Park" and "Chappelle's Show" from COMEDY CENTRAL; "Hogan Knows Best" from VH1; "SpongeBob SquarePants" and "Avatar: The Last Airbender" from Nickelodeon; and "Skyland" from Nicktoons Network."

but where are they ? Not just the customers Bram. The content ?

I searched for Prison Break. Lots of torrents. None of them Legal.
Is this what Fox had in mind when they signed up with you ?
»www.torrentportal.com/to ··· d=674883

They wanted people to find bootleg copies of their content ?

Im a big shareholder in LionsGate. Is this what they had in mind when they signed with you ? Im sure if I call the CEO, they would say it wasnt
»torrentreactor.net/view. ··· d=626485

I couldnt find a legit copy of SawIII. Trailer Yes. Full Movie. Not so much.

Bram. Thank you for the post. You make my point exactly. BT is a great technology and you get credit for that. Turning it into a real business.. Well its not doomed, but it has more than its share of challenges.

You may choose to dismiss them, but until you recognize them, you will continue to have to get those 20mm dollar checks to keep your hopes alive.

And btw, I did invest in RS. But it wasnt close to 1.7mm dollars