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story category The Infamous 'Up To' Broadband Qualifier
Australian regulators have had enough...
(old news - 07:46PM Tuesday Jan 30 2007)
tags: business · bandwidth
The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) has issued a warning to Australia ISPs to come clean about their broadband speeds and stop using the "up to" marketing term, or face possible litigation. "Most consumers won't understand what 'up to' means and then they are significantly disappointed when they don't achieve those speeds," says ACCC chairman Graeme Samuel. "We know all the technicians know that in most cases the speeds that you are claiming as the headline speeds are not achievable," he warns.

There's been a similar debate here in the States. While technicians and informed users know that an "up to 3Mbps" connection means under optimal conditions (line quality, CO distance), less informed consumers are repeatedly surprised when they perform their first speed test and notice they're getting significantly less. While some have suggested regulator-enforced speed tests to ensure customers are getting what they pay for, there's too many factors to consider (trojan infection? poor home wiring?) to make proper enforcement practical.

Our resident ISP techs will be the first to tell you that residential broadband is a "best effort" service, and users desiring guaranteed speed and reliability should look toward business class lines with SLAs. Users on the other side of the fence argue you don't pay for "up to" a gallon of gasoline, with the gas station saying .7 gallons was their "best effort" in getting it from the ground to your tank. Either way, if there's a problem with the "up to" tag, it's a marketing department issue. Is the "up to" tag misleading? Is it something regulators should squash?

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Forums » The Infamous 'Up To' Broadband Qualifier
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DaMaGeINC
The Lan Man
Premium
join:2002-06-08
Greenville, SC
clubs:

Yes

Squash please. Its simple. Overcap people.

Matt
Quitting Caffeine - Argh
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..

Re: Yes

said by DaMaGeINC See Profile :

Squash please. Its simple. Overcap people.
Not quite. What about the people on DSL who are capped at 1.5Mbps and only get 800Kbps? Raising the cap to 100Mbps won't matter.

Same with cable.
--
Use the OS tool for the job.

DaMaGeINC
The Lan Man
Premium
join:2002-06-08
Greenville, SC
clubs:

Re: Yes

Well, DSL is crippled. And I could care less about it. Im not too worried about people who are too far away. Im worried about the 90% of people who are within the spec.

ronpin
Imagine Reality

join:2002-12-06
Nirvana
·AT&T Southwest

Getting MORE than promised!

I'm getting 10.8 mbs from Charter Cable! (on a 10mbs line). Who'da thunk Charter would rise from their debt to compete with Verizon's FiOS? It can happen!
--
America has been hijacked by selfish nationalist corporate pigs. The whole world hates us now. Have a nice day.

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

said by DaMaGeINC See Profile :

Squash please. Its simple. Overcap people.
Verizon does that but only to give back what their crappy implementation takes away(PPPoE/A)
--
You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth
Surfinusa
Premium
join:2001-02-08

Absolutely!!!

You should get what you pay for otherwise don't say its 6mb DSL line and (best effort). I like that gasoline explanation. You pay what you get for as advertised not best effort. Your neighbor just happens to get 5.1mb were sorry best effort Bell says you can only get 4.3mb. Worst off you pay the same rate.

At least cable is somewhat consistent with there advertised speeds. But the prices is a can of worms. Yuck!
dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN

Re: Absolutely!!!

You're not paying for 6M all the time, every time- read the TOS and promotional materials where they say "up to".

You may feel that it should be a solid 6M, but that's not what you were offered.

Sean
The Great Divide

join:2004-01-23
Richmond Hil
·Bell Sympatico

Re: Absolutely!!!

said by dynodb See Profile :

You're not paying for 6M all the time, every time- read the TOS and promotional materials where they say "up to".

You may feel that it should be a solid 6M, but that's not what you were offered.
If you had the capacity to understand what was going on, you would realize that the debate is OVER the technicality. No one cares what the TOS says. What matters is what it is that you APPEAR to be buying.

The whole point in this is, there shouldn't be any misrepresentation.
dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN

Re: Absolutely!!!

said by Sean See Profile :

said by dynodb See Profile :

You're not paying for 6M all the time, every time- read the TOS and promotional materials where they say "up to".

You may feel that it should be a solid 6M, but that's not what you were offered.
If you had the capacity to understand what was going on, you would realize that the debate is OVER the technicality. No one cares what the TOS says. What matters is what it is that you APPEAR to be buying.

The whole point in this is, there shouldn't be any misrepresentation.
And what exactly are they misrepresenting when they make it pretty clear that maximum speeds aren't guaranteed? Providers have a responsibility to market their product fairly, but customers also have a duty to have some clue what they're buying.

When they advertise speeds "up to x meg", I fail to see where the "technicality" lies.

DownTheShore
Health Care Reform NOW
Premium
join:2003-12-02
Beautiful NJ
clubs:

Re: Absolutely!!!

said by dynodb See Profile :

said by Sean See Profile :

said by dynodb See Profile :

You're not paying for 6M all the time, every time- read the TOS and promotional materials where they say "up to".

You may feel that it should be a solid 6M, but that's not what you were offered.
If you had the capacity to understand what was going on, you would realize that the debate is OVER the technicality. No one cares what the TOS says. What matters is what it is that you APPEAR to be buying.

The whole point in this is, there shouldn't be any misrepresentation.
And what exactly are they misrepresenting when they make it pretty clear that maximum speeds aren't guaranteed? Providers have a responsibility to market their product fairly, but customers also have a duty to have some clue what they're buying.

When they advertise speeds "up to x meg", I fail to see where the "technicality" lies.
No need to argue among ourselves, now.

The point of the discussion is that the phrase "up to x meg" shouldn't be part of the TOS at all. The Australians seem to want the speed accurately stated in the TOS, perhaps as a minimum speed guarantee so that people wouldn't be disappointed when their speeds never reach the currently advertised higher amounts. That way when their speeds go higher, they're all happy campers.
--
Life is simply one damned thing after another.
dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN

Re: Absolutely!!!

Say you have two competing providers with identical networks and service plans. One markets their plan as "up to 6M", and the other offers "3M guaranteed". Which one do you think people are more likely to sign up for?

I agree that the ambiguity can be frustrating, but given that building a shared-resource network that supports 3M 100% of the time is much more expensive to build than one that offers 6M 90% of the time, there isn't an easy solution.
smcallah

join:2004-08-05
Home

said by DownTheShore See Profile :

perhaps as a minimum speed guarantee so that people wouldn't be disappointed when their speeds never reach the currently advertised higher amounts.
Except that minimum speed could be 0bps. No one can guarantee what speeds are across the Internet. The best they can ever guarantee are speeds to a speedtest box in their main data center, or maybe as far down as the local CO/Hub.

Customers only care how fast they can download something. That's why "Up to Xmbps" should be acceptable. If people can't be made to understand what "up to" means, then that's not really the fault of people selling the service.

Heck, they could even do a special acceptance test for the customer, hook up a speedtest box at the CO end, go to the customer's house, and show them that they are getting all the way up to Xmbps. And tell them, "this is your max speed. Sign this that we have tested out that your speeds work UP TO Xmbps."

But no one can guarantee a minimum or maximum speed to any site on the Internet, and that sounds like what they want to happen. No one can say from one minute to the next how fast your download is going to be from one particular site out there, not to mention the millions of possible sites out there.

DownTheShore
Health Care Reform NOW
Premium
join:2003-12-02
Beautiful NJ
clubs:

Re: Absolutely!!!

But it would be nice if we were at least given a realistic number. My OOL speeds are supposed to be "up to" 15/2 Mbps, but on good days I usually only run 9/1 Mbps; most days my download speed is lower. To me, that 15/2 number is false advertising. I'd've liked to have seen my TOS at least include a realistic average speed for my area.
--
Life is simply one damned thing after another.
smcallah

join:2004-08-05
Home

Re: Absolutely!!!

And the speed for your area could change, at any time. Heck, the speed for just YOUR HOUSE, can change, depending on what could be wrong.

If they can prove that their speed actually works "up to" what they say, I see no reason that they can't advertise it as such.

The one thing that all providers though need to remove from their ads or TOS is "unlimited service."

Everyone gets confused on that one.

DownTheShore
Health Care Reform NOW
Premium
join:2003-12-02
Beautiful NJ
clubs:

Re: Absolutely!!!

said by smcallah See Profile :

And the speed for your area could change, at any time. Heck, the speed for just YOUR HOUSE, can change, depending on what could be wrong.

If they can prove that their speed actually works "up to" what they say, I see no reason that they can't advertise it as such.

The one thing that all providers though need to remove from their ads or TOS is "unlimited service."

Everyone gets confused on that one.
I understand that the speeds are influenced by other events, particularly node overloads etc. But in my case, as far as I've been able to determine, there's nothing wrong at my end, so I'm talking about people who are in similar circumstances.

If, realistically, the customer is never going to get those advertised speeds, advertising it as such is akin to those "speedy weight loss" pills advertised on TV. At least those are required to clearly include a disclaimer that those people who drop a lot of weight are atypical.
--
Life is simply one damned thing after another.

raw
War Eagle
Premium
join:2001-01-17
Pasadena, MD
clubs:


1 edit
If I say that my annual salary is "up to $50 million", that doesn't make me a millionaire, although what I'm saying is technically true.
--
[BBR]raw
America's Army
BBR Enemy Territory clan founder

La Luna
Surviving Ashraful
Premium
join:2001-07-12
Warwick, NY
clubs:
·Vonage
·Optimum Online

said by dynodb See Profile :

And what exactly are they misrepresenting when they make it pretty clear that maximum speeds aren't guaranteed? Providers have a responsibility to market their product fairly, but customers also have a duty to have some clue what they're buying.

When they advertise speeds "up to x meg", I fail to see where the "technicality" lies.
You are correct, they aren't "misrepresenting" a damn thing.

"Most consumers won't understand what 'up to' means and then they are significantly disappointed when they don't achieve those speeds..."

Without even reading one more post in this thread, you can already see that statement is exactly right.

People are either truly stupid by not understanding what "up to" means, or they are using *selective comprehension*.

*Yawn*, who cares...let them change the wording to "7MB, guaranteed" instead of "up to 10MB" and people will think they've pulled one over on the ISP's when they get 8 or 9MB.

Problem solved.
--
~~Well, I think you're crazy, I think you're crazy, I think you're crazy, just like me...~~

Done_Posting
Shoot to kill
Premium
join:2003-08-22
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable

Re: Absolutely!!!

said by La Luna See Profile :

Without even reading one more post in this thread, you can already see that statement is exactly right.

People are either truly stupid by not understanding what "up to" means, or they are using *selective comprehension*.
Nail on the head. Excellently worded!

- Tate

--
Disclaimer for the mentally impaired: My posts reflect my personal opinions and not the views of my employer. I may work for a cable ISP, but I'm still an okay guy.
Surfinusa
Premium
join:2001-02-08


1 edit

Re: Absolutely!!!

Its all a trick to get you to believe what you think you are getting verse what they know you can really get.

They have a tool that tells what the max bandwidth is available for your line its very reliable and unlike cable it is somewhat solid. When they say you can only get 1.3mb then that's what you can expect.

To advertise you might get up to 2mb that like saying you may be a winning customer.

So far Cable (Roadrunner) is the only one that I have found to be as close as to advertised speeds. Best effort is a lottery.

If I told you I would cut your lawn and I said I would do my best effort to do so, and at the same time you have a big patch of grass I cannot seem to cut with my mower how does that help you. You would obviously look for someone else who could do the work not a best effort job.

That's just not very professional terminology.

Just look at other posts here, I'm not the only one that thinks this is ridiculous.
Done_Posting
Shoot to kill
Premium
join:2003-08-22
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable

Re: Absolutely!!!

said by Surfinusa See Profile :

So far Cable (Roadrunner) is the only one that I have found to be as close as to advertised speeds. Best effort is a lottery.
I guess I've just been extremely lucky with my broadband connections so far, because I have yet to subscribe to a service where I did not receive close to the max speed I have purchased. Obviously everyone's mileage varies.

- Tate

--
Disclaimer for the mentally impaired: My posts reflect my personal opinions and not the views of my employer. I may work for a cable ISP, but I'm still an okay guy.
chuckkk

join:2001-11-10
Warner Robins, GA
·Cox HSI

The problem with "up to" is that "down to" and average is not mentioned.

To be fair, I believe that the "up to" rate should not be expected to be obtainable all the time. Not obtainable at all seems to be the norm.

My humble opinion--
In order to advertise a speed, the speed should be obtainable, and be so most of the time.

In my area--
The download speeds (or slightly better) are obtainable,but not as often as you might like.
Upload speeds seldom are near the 512k cap. 460-480k is the usual max.
dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
If you had the capacity to read the post I was responding to, you'd understand the context of my post a bit better.
Stumbles

join:2002-12-17
Port Saint Lucie, FL

EXACTLY. I wish some of the dunderheads would get that through their, um, err heads and stop trying to derail the issue with crap about TOS, bandwidth hogs, capping up, capping down or being an "informed buyer",

The issue is providers via marketing hype LEADING you to think one thing but in reality giving you something less than what they want you to believe. The analogy about the gas pump could not be any clearer.

If the filling stations started doing what broadband providers do I would bet there would be ZERO misunderstanding.
Surfinusa
Premium
join:2001-02-08
Always read before you post!
Diddy1

join:2003-07-19
Sidney, NE
But what you were offered can/is misleading

LiberalKing
Intocable
Premium
join:2005-09-12
Bronx, NY

1 edit

Cablevision invented the "up-to" fraud

.

--


retiredat44
North San Diego County

join:2002-08-13
Vista, CA

Re: Cablevision invented the "up-to" fraud

said by LiberalKing See Profile :

.
Cablevision invented the "up-to" fraud
but Time Warner / Road Runner Perfected it!

knightmb
Everybody Lies

join:2003-12-01
Franklin, TN
·AT&T DSL Service
·Comcast
·Vonage
·Speakeasy

Maybe the US should take note...

We have the same problem here from the Cable & DSL providers. Everyone likes to you tell you "ultra fast" but neglect the "technically best effort" fine text.

When I got my DSL, they only promised 1.5M/bps download because I was so far away from the CO and 768 K/bps Upload. I accepted that and at least they are keeping that promise. I have too many Friends that wanted faster DSL/Cable and the speeds were no where what was promised by the sales teams. A big shock?

BUYaCLUEnow

@comcast.net

thumbs down from:
mrchris See Profile

Any reputable provider would offer a guaranteed Minimum...

...speed but of course then they'd be obligated to actually provide it on a reliable bases. That's like expecting MICROSUCKS to deliver a reliable O/S. Ain't gonna happen in this life.

mrchris
We don't miss you Bush
Premium
join:2002-10-01
North Babylon, NY

Re: Any reputable provider would offer a guaranteed Minimum...

Oh please, register once and for all!

TScheisskopf
World News Trust

join:2005-02-13
Belvidere, NJ

Re: Any reputable provider would offer a guaranteed Minimum...

I don't know. If it did, it wouldn't have the same magic one expects from the one, the only Taylor Troll.
RJ44

join:2001-10-19
Nashville, TN

One of two results

Either they'll start guaranteeing your speeds and charge you a helluva lot more for it, or they'll stop offering you speeds they can't guarantee you'll get.

Which of those scenarios is gonna make everybody happy?
dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN

Re: One of two results

Neither, obviously. The providers could print in big red letters "WE DON'T GUARANTEE YOU'LL ALWAYS GET THIS SPEED, YOU MIGHT GET LESS SOME OR ALL THE TIME" and people would still feel they weren't getting "the speeds they paid for" because a speed test showed 2.5M instead of 3M.

That said, I don't think it unreasonable that some kind of broad service guarantees be given at least.
RJ44

join:2001-10-19
Nashville, TN

Re: One of two results

said by dynodb See Profile :

Neither, obviously. The providers could print in big red letters "WE DON'T GUARANTEE YOU'LL ALWAYS GET THIS SPEED, YOU MIGHT GET LESS SOME OR ALL THE TIME" and people would still feel they weren't getting "the speeds they paid for" because a speed test showed 2.5M instead of 3M.

That said, I don't think it unreasonable that some kind of broad service guarantees be given at least.
I have to wonder how much of this is a tempest in a teapot anyway. I'm sure there are bad apples, but I suspect the reputable ISPs give the vast majority of their customers a pretty good approximation of what they're paying for already.
moonpuppy

join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL

Where is the popcorn?

This is going to be an interesting fight.

In this corner, wearing the ID badges and phone headsets, THE ISP techs. In the other corner, with checkbooks and modems, the consumers.

The ISP techs will argue you need shut up and pay or find someone else, we don't need you bandwidth hogs. If you want anything better, get a T1.

The consumers are sick of the double speak, bad service, slow speeds and phone techs who blame the customer computers and never their own network.

Face it, this fight will go on and on until their is some real competition (not the monopoly or duopoly that exists now.) Companies deserve to make a profit but not at the expense of the consumer.

See 9 replies to this post

LiamJunket
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Ocean City, NJ
·Comcast

Buyer Beware is still the best policy

And those who ignore that deserve what happens to them. It is all part of the dumbing down of America where you don't fend for yourself but depend on Nanny Gov't to watch over you.
--
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justbits
More fiber than ATT can handle
Premium
join:2003-01-08
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Midwest
·AT&T Yahoo

Gas? No. Speed limit, more accurate

You're not fueling (provisioning) your travel from point to point (on the Internet) with your own equipment. You are renting time on the telco or cable company equipment, buying in monthly increments of usage.

Using the Internet is like traveling a highway. Everybody shares the highway (the Internet.) Due to agreements between states (Internet peering agreements), the roads intersect and allow traffic to go between states (Internet Major Points of Presence). At the local level (your home to your telephone office) you have slower roads. When everyone gets on the highway (Internet), traffic goes slower. When the roads (outside physical plant wires) aren't rated for highway speeds (excessive interference, poor wires) OR if you are forced to use the backroads because you can't afford to take the toll road (T1, T3, OC3, etc) or get to the toll road (no remote terminal, no fiber to the neighborhood, poor infrastructure), you are stuck going at the slower speeds (DSL, Cable, or even a fraction of cable or DSL).

I think that using the speed limit analogy shows that broadband should be considered a utility, not a commodity.

Is broadband a commodity that should be traded on the open market, or a utility that we all should be sharing responsibility for equally? As I've demonstrated, the analogy you come up with matches what you think people's perception of that item should be.

If you want the infrastructure upgraded, you would probably consider broadband a utility.
If you already have good infrastructure to your home, or you're just not aware of the bigger picture of the Internet, you'll want as much speed as possible as cheap as you can get it, so you'd want it to be considered a commodity.

--justbits
srobmw

join:2005-10-01
New Windsor, NY

Re: Gas? No. Speed limit, more accurate

Well said.
RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
·XMission

Another *YAWN*

Between bad metaphors and over hyped expectations this story looks very familiar.

As far as the "gallon of gas" metaphor, that is a physical measurement that does not depend on any variables. Internet speed at your modem depends on many variables that may or may not be under the control of the line provider, the ISP, or your credit card company, at least not without sinking a lot more money into it than you are worth. Yes it is misleading, and yes they (line provider and/or ISP) should be more clear about it other than posting the raves of best served user as an example.

My 2 cents/centavos/yen/penningen/farthings/won/? worth.

If you are expecting the US government to do something, don't. I have worked too many government projects where a unit has a certain specification and the contractor limits all the good stuff to be exactly the spec but gets waivers for all that they can't/won't meet. The internet will most likely not be treated any differently than any other federal program, and all the whining of people on sites like this will be nothing more than the whine of a midge in a boiler factory. Now if you had some way to ensure the congress-it of your choice would not get reelected if some useful change was made, then that would be a different story.
--
I am not lost, I find myself every time.
dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN

No easy answer

Both sides- the broadband providers and consumer advocates- have valid points, but there's no simple answer here.

While the providers advertise their service as "up to X meg", I can understand why some would be frustrated that they weren't getting the full "up to" speed, especially when they often weren't told in advance what they'd actually get.

From the provider standpoint, you'd have to severely overbuild your network at much greater expense and/or test each and every line before it's even ordered to see what it can support.

In addition, nearly every aspect of pretty much every provider's network- and the entire Internet for that matter- is oversubscribed. It would only take a fraction of total customers to download a file simultaneously before both the provider and ISP facilities were maxed out.

The simplistic answer espoused by many BBR posters would be "just invest in more capacity you big greedy corporations!", but that comes at a price that must be passed on to customers if they are to make a profit- there's a reason that a 1.536M dedicated T1 costs $400/month while DSL and cable cost roughly one tenth that. Without oversubscription (which practically every provider large and small relies on), that simply wouldn't be the case.

Is it reasonable for a customer to expect the maximum "up to" speed 24/7 for $40/month? No. Is it reasonable to a provider to consistanly deliver far less speed than the full rate their line can support? No.

For now, subscribers should get used to the idea of "up to" a certain speed, while providers should work to make sure reasonable customer expectations are met.

See 15 replies to this post

retiredat44
North San Diego County

join:2002-08-13
Vista, CA

Time Warner/Road Runner could take a Lesson in Honesty!

Time Warner/Road Runner could take a Lesson in Honesty!
TW/RR is so full of crap with bad service, and crap speeds....

This article could well be about them too! But our lousy government hasn't stepped in to stop the lies... YET!
Here in the the USA...
--
My Sig: Disabled Veteran.
['insert name',
OH MY GOD, Am I going to have to start drawing you a picture to get you off my freaking back?.........
AMAZING... Look, I dont' know what you guys want from me, I'm asking questions in a forum.[/BQUOTE]
XknightHawkX

join:2003-02-13
Morton, IL
clubs:

The ISP doesn't know anything for sure

When I got Verizon DSL originally they said I qualified for 1.5/384 but I ended up with 768/128. Everyone kept telling me that they said up to 1.5/384. I was told I qualified for the faster tier then I got the slower tier. I went round and round with Verizon. One group would say I qualified and another group said I didn't. I got the 1.5/384 after I talked to a supervisor. Well I started bitching when I got transferred and it was the supervisor. I had my connection 2 days later. This crap about up to is just that crap.

Next we have to fix the ISP's from saying 50 times fast then dial-up. Dial-up is symmetrical(I think that is what it's called) so we can get the same speed on upload as we do on download. But ISP's 50 times faster then dial-up is a lie to me.

Ok I'm gonna shut up now cause I'm a little off topic.
scooper

join:2000-07-11
Youngsville, NC

Re: The ISP doesn't know anything for sure

You must be a youngster - dialup modems quit being symetrical when 56K modems first came out ! And I've had dialup modems from 2400, 14,400, 28,800, 33,600 as well as the "56K" types. I can remember telling some sceptics that V.42 / V.42bis was perfectly possible in software just as MNP4/MNP5 was (and my 2400 modem came with that MNP4/MNP5 software). Eventually, I was proved right (what do you think a WinModem is ?).

In absolutely perfect conditions, a 56K modem will get you about 53K download and from 28K - 33.6K upload (in North America). My "real world" at my house is dialup download most reliable at 44k, occaisionally can connect at 46K, but very unreliably (connection often freezes, etc.). Yet, this same pair of copper supports my 3M down / 512K up DSL service.

thender2
Glamour Profession
Premium
join:2004-05-16
Staten Island, NY


1 edit

Why bother changing up to?

Up to will be replace with best effort. Best effort will be replaced with here's a sick 15 mbps service at an affordable price, but we'll cap it so it's completely useless.

There's always a way to get around these things, so you can advertise a high speed but have strings attached that make it silly and lackluster.

I don't think it is right. The only way to combat this is with an informed consumer, not more legislation.

Let's look at this applied to other things. If a receiver company advertises 100x5 watts, they can show a graph of it hitting 100 for one millisecond when the moon aligns with the amp properly, but otherwise, it's useless.

Add legislation that you must advertise RMS power, and RMS power will be judged by their labatories(which, of course, will differ from the rest of the world's test results), or by saying it'll do that into a low impedance like 3 ohms that it won't be able to run for more than two seconds.

It's always possible to find loopholes around fair advertising, but finding a way to fool an informed consumer is much, much harder.

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

Multi-tier language

there needs to be some guarantees here even if your service is best effort. say you are a provider and have 2 tiers(10000/1000 and 5000/512).
-
now if i subscribe to the 10000/1000 tier, there should be a guarantee of "Up to 10000kbps down and 1000kbps up but at least 5001kbps down and 513kbps up" and if not then that would count as an 'outage' and said user would get a credit for that day on their cable bill.
-
this is exactly why i downgraded my service(cox communications) couldnt even give me the speeds one tier down from mine was capped at.
--
You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth

clickwir

join:2001-06-21
Dickson City, PA

bad analogy

Bad analogy with the gas thing. The gas only has to go from the underground tank to the car and you are comparing overall quantity to speed. It doesn't match up.

Now the ISP's COULD have a speed test from different points on their network to your router. That and have regulations say that the speed test has to be withing 5% of what is advertised. That would make things a lot better. They can then say more certainly that it is or is not a problem inside your network or with your pc.
dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN

Re: bad analogy

I agree that it's a bad analogy, but to be fair to Karl (whom I've criticized more than once) he represented that analogy as the view of some users, evidenced by numerous posts right here on BBR.

A better analogy would be gas mileage. Car companies often advertise fuel efficiency ratings of "up to x miles per gallon", even if few drivers will actually see it since they aren't driving on an EPA test bed- there are simply too many variables involved to guarantee how many miles per gallon a given car will actually get.
Asmodeus

join:2004-05-26
Spring Valley, CA

ah!!! finally...

a truth in advertising clause is being pushed... about time...

kyler13
Is your fiber grounded?

join:2006-12-12
Arnold, MD

What's the argument?

Am I missing something here? My Comcast HSI was advertised 6 down, 768 up. Most of the time I got that. My FIOS is 15 down, 2 up. I seem to always get that. Obviously if your node is oversold services, it can occasionally kill your peak speed when everyones on at the same time, and few websites will ever reach the peak speeds anyway. But if you can speedtest the advertised speeds, what's the big deal? I think the "up to" sham comes mainly from DSL. Time and time again I've had to explain to co-workers and friends that DSL speed is distance limited. It's obviously unclear the way it's marketed or they wouldn't be surprised when I explain it to them. And I can understand getting mad about subscribing to "up to 3Mbps" and getting only 400kbps because your way too far from the CO, especially when the guy getting near 3Mbps is paying the same amount as you. Cable and fiber aren't distance limited, so it's a different standard altogether. But, yes, DSL providers should get slapped for not being straightforward, and charging accordingly.
dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN


1 edit

Re: What's the argument?

I don't see the "sham"; most DSL providers provide multi-tiered service- they know that not everyone will be eligible for the highest rate they offer.

If a distance or line considerations mean that customer isn't getting close to the speeds they signed up for, then I'd agree that they shouldn't be held to any service contract.

As mentioned earlier, the sales office can't predict what speeds a given customer will get with 100% accuracy. There will be times when they qualify someone for 5M when their line only ends up supporting 3M. This isn't intentional dishonesty, but rather the fact that the facts on the ground don't always match up with those on paper.

Edit: Just ran three speed tests in a row on my 6M cable connection, they came in between 2.4-2.9M. Being a shared local loop, cable is typically more susceptable to speed fluctuations than DSL.

PhoenixDown
-- Wants FIOS
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
clubs:

how many may not realize that they are not getting "x" speed

Granted, all of us here know enough to run a line test and see what we are getting as far as speeds but there are lot of people who may just end up thinking that they are getting a certain speed when they are not.
--
Mass Transit Sucks!
OCP
Premium
join:2004-10-11
USA

Who hosts the speed test?

I didn't read every comment, but I didn't see this point mentioned.

Your connection to the internet might be over DSL and the server might be connected to the internet with cable, fractional T-1, ISDN, frame relay, dedicated analog modem, etc. They can't possible guarantee the speed between your computer and the server will be faster than the server is capable of serving. The server could be an overwhelmed ancient Sun Sparc box or something with a dying SCSI hard drive and defective RAM. There could be water dripping in the case, the CPU fan is clogged with dust and on and on...

If the speed is only guaranteed to the CO (or equivalent) it's useless. When I had DSL, that was the situation for me. The DSL modem had a perfect connection to the CO at the full advertised speed, but the connection from the CO to the internet peaked at about 1/2 of that. It was exactly what they advertised, but it was only 1/2 as fast at the same time. I don't know how good the Australian government is, but I bet things like this will escape them.
Forums » The Infamous 'Up To' Broadband Qualifierpage: 1 · 2


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