 russotto
join:2000-10-05
Collegeville, PA
edit:
October 10th, @04:59PM
| Spamhaus.org.uk anyone? I'm no fan of rabid anti-spammers who are willing to block the entire net to keep a piece of spam from going through, but I'm less a fan of this sort of abuse of jurisdiction. | |
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Jim Gurd
Premium
join:2000-07-08
Plymouth, MI
edit:
October 9th, @11:57AM
| Re: Spamhaus.co.uk anyone? That seems like the solution right there. I hope they have reserved that domain name just in case. If they are smart they will start making the transition right now.
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Correlation does not imply causation. | |
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RichardB4
@rr.com | It is not an abuse of jurisdiction. If you conduct or interfere with business in the United states, you are subject to the laws of the United States. The same goes for our companies doing business abroad. | |
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| | karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
Nashua, NH
 ·Fairpoint Communic..
| Re: Spamhaus.co.uk anyone? Abuse of jurisdiction? Of COURSE it's abuse of juridsction. The company has no presence in the US. Exactly how does a US court have 'juridstiction' over a company that isn't based in the US.
You need to get a clue. Spamhause is in the right. A US court has NO RIGHT to prosecute a foreign company. And foreign courts have no right to prosecute US companies. How would you feel if a north korean court convicted YOU of crimes against the state? It would be a bullshit case. And the spamhause case is exactly the same crap. | |
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rachelsfx
join:2004-09-27
Pensacola, FL
| Re: Spamhaus.co.uk anyone? Which law school did you attend? If the actions violate U.S. law, they are subject to prosecution/civl action. Collecting is another matter.
I think ICANN should just suspend domains that spam. I'm sick of the 20-1 ratio of spam. I don't block spam since I might block someone legit (which happens).
Why should companies and ISPs spend hundreds of millions on spam control? Identify the jerks and kill their domains. A ton are sending all kinds of junk making customers have to buy software for all kinds of spyware, malware, trojans, etc.
Since I'm personally sick of Playboy.com's spam, suspend their domain for a week. I bet they never spam again. | |
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| | | | karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
Nashua, NH
·Fairpoint Communic..
| Re: Spamhaus.co.uk anyone? What law school did YOU attend. International law CLEARLY STATES that the laws of one country do NOT EXTEND to other countries. So it doesn't matter WHAT any US court says. The fact of the matter is that Spamhause is NOT BREAKING THE LAW. PERIOD.
It's exactly the same reason the piratebay.org exists. In sweded, trackers are 100% legal. The **AA's can kiss their white republican asses goodbye, because they have NO RIGHTS in sweden.
The internet is INTERNATIONAL. Only rabid christian right-wing republicans think the US OWNS the internet. The truth of the matter is the US is just a tiny player these days. | |
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91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT
| Re: Spamhaus.co.uk anyone? That may be a scholarly definition of the law, but in reality, laws are enforced by whomever has the might to enforce them.
One can argue that we have no legal jurisdiction over Iraq, but we went over there to enforce our will. We can invade and punish ANY country that defies our courts. That's the new American way. | |
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CoxCable4
banned from most servers for cheating
join:2002-10-02
PwnZone
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Spamhaus.co.uk anyone? said by 91439306  :That's the new American way. lol yeah, didn't anyone see team america: world police? | |
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91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT
| Re: Spamhaus.co.uk anyone? said by CoxCable4 :said by 91439306 :That's the new American way. lol yeah, didn't anyone see team america: world police? That's where it's headed. You cannot escape America's laws and it's corporations' desires! | |
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sweintz
Premium
join:2002-03-01
Hamden, CT
| Re: Spamhaus.co.uk anyone? said by 91439306 :said by CoxCable4 :said by 91439306 :That's the new American way. lol yeah, didn't anyone see team america: world police? That's where it's headed. You cannot escape America's laws and it's corporations' desires! Um, ok, but in this case we WERE talking about jurisdiction of US courts over a defendant located in the UK. Somehow I don't think we are likely to invade the United Kingdom over this... | |
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91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT | Re: Spamhaus.co.uk anyone? I was being somewhat facetious, to illustrate a point, and to vent my frustration.  | |
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Clam
@rr.com | Only a choat smoking democrat would assume all Republicans are rabid christians. | |
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| | | | | tchamilton
join:2002-07-19
Trabuco Canyon, CA
 ·Packet8
·LINGO
| I am no christian, republican, nor democrat...needless to say UK just passed a law stating email spam is illegal. If someone is sending us spam from the UK, that person in the UK is sending email through US email servers and they need to abid by the laws of US.....Just like if someone hacked into a US computer from UK they would be held accountable for there actions. UK would be the responsible one and to prosecute the criminals. | |
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jaxdomino
join:2001-12-01
Jacksonville, FL
·Axvoice
| You not serious right? If you are you have no clue. Which I get already from your posting. Killing a domain name won't stop spammers. Most spam is sent via compromised PC's who's owners have no clue their PC is sending out spam. Also, spammers move around so much it would be impossible to block spam by getting rid of their domain. They'll just spoof another one. I'm an email administrator and we DO block SPAM, if a legitimate message does get blocked, which you are right, it does happen from time to time, we fix it. In the old days we and still today, people try and block spammers using Blacklists they maintain themselves. IMPOSSIBLE. Ask the folks who used to manage DNS back in the day when it was a small text file that was emailed around with updates. | |
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ifarrell
join:2000-08-10
Willow Spring, NC
edit:
October 9th, @03:38PM
| Re: Spamhaus.co.uk anyone? Instead of quoting that the law is this or that, why don't you guys look it up or ask a real attorney (preferably one that practices international law).
When your done, post any applicable links here.
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JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA | Spamhaus doesn't block anyone. They publish a list that mail admins can choose to implement at their leisure, understanding the implications of said lists' usage. Nothing more. | |
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GTaylor
Premium
join:2002-12-14
Frisco, TX
clubs:
| said by rachelsfx :Why should companies and ISPs spend hundreds of millions on spam control? Identify the jerks and kill their domains. A ton are sending all kinds of junk making customers have to buy software for all kinds of spyware, malware, trojans, etc. Easier said than done, the Polyakov gang (Currently #1 in Spamhaus' spammers list) is known to open up to 2,000 domains at one time. On average a spammer domain lasts appx 1/2 a day, if they're lucky a day and a half i.e. they're already used to their domains being killed.
This is how a spammer thinks:
- Kill my domains, I'll simply point my site to another
- Kill all my domains I'll open 2000 more (All under assumed names of course)
- Kill all my domains and force me not to open any (Which is impossible unless you physically force this) and I'll point it to trojaned PCs.
Get the idea - the good guys are one step behind, and sadly will be for a while.
Most spammers aren't stupid, they know how to work viruses, how to hack servers that aren't properly secured, how to cover their tracks, how to launder money to several different countries. One spammer busted had 35 servers (Yes, 35) dedicated to sending spam. Chris Rizler once had 85 employees working under him. This is not some kid working behind a PC. This criminal business if full-fledged and prosecuting isn't easy and takes time.
Factor in the above paragraph and how they work and you can see why simply closing their domains doesn't solve any problem other than preventing you from getting spam for minutes. | |
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| | | tchamilton
join:2002-07-19
Trabuco Canyon, CA
·Packet8
·LINGO
| It sounds to me you need to get a clue Kara. First of all you need to look at the international law in regards to spam, hacking, etc. Spamhause is NOT in the right, they were guilty of spamming. I guess we all should spam you with millions and millions of emails see how you like it. | |
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celeritypc
For Lucky Best Wash, Use Mr. Sparkle
Premium
join:2004-05-15
Caldwell, NJ
| It Just Goes to Show.. what a bunch of scumbags these spammers are. I use Spamhaus as one of my black hole lists and it works great. I still get a large volume of spam but much less than I would. I want to know what the court has been smoking. Let's call a spade a spade and be done with it. These types of suits are what will bring the internet down faster than any government regulation or net-neutrality issue. | |
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Erwin_D
join:2003-06-30
Netherlands
| Heh... So the court order either ICANN or Tucows (Spamhaus' registrar) to suspend Spamhaus...
Note how this court order only order "www.spamhaus.org" to be blocked, so rbl-xbl.spamhaus.org should be ok  | |
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TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Heh... said by Erwin_D :So the court order either ICANN or Tucows (Spamhaus' registrar) to suspend Spamhaus... Note how this court order only order " www.spamhaus.org" to be blocked, so rbl-xbl.spamhaus.org should be ok It was a PROPOSED order. It can be amended to get the technical pieces correct. And the oder would probably be modified to suspend the entire domain "spamhaus.org", including all its aliases.
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--
Join Red Room Forum
BLOG tkjunkmail.blogspot.com
My Web Page | |
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Jameson
1010
Premium
join:2004-05-28
Fallbrook, CA
clubs: | Re: Heh... Our government is full of morons. | |
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| | | soccerguy
join:2004-06-28
Seattle, WA
·Speakeasy
| Re: Heh... I love how everyone gets their panties in a bunch about a proposed order.  It's a proposed order. Submitted by the plaintiff for consideration. It's not an order from the court itself. | |
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| | | Cybertoad
join:2001-11-08
Houston, TX | No reason to state the obvious! LOL | |
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Erwin_D
join:2003-06-30
Netherlands
| Ah, I didn't catch that. It wasn't clear who proposed the order. I thought the court did, but it's probably the plaintif.
In that case I'm pretty sure the court will deny the order, as both ICANN and Tucows are not even parties in this case. | |
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| bassdude
join:2001-05-18
Bedford, MA
edit:
October 9th, @12:45PM
| said by Erwin_D :So the court order either ICANN or Tucows (Spamhaus' registrar) to suspend Spamhaus... Note how this court order only order " www.spamhaus.org" to be blocked, so rbl-xbl.spamhaus.org should be ok Tucows is a Canadian company so the court can't order them to do anything, well they can but Tucows is under no obligation to listen.
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David Draper, CISSP
Draper Consulting Services
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AmeritecTech
Change we can believe in, 1922
Premium
join:2002-09-06
00000
| Re: Heh... said by bassdude :said by Erwin_D :So the court order either ICANN or Tucows (Spamhaus' registrar) to suspend Spamhaus... Note how this court order only order " www.spamhaus.org" to be blocked, so rbl-xbl.spamhaus.org should be ok Tucows is a Canadian company so the court can't order them to do anything, well they can but Tucows is under no obligation to listen. If Tucows doesn't comply, ICANN can suspend their domain.
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"Independent thinkers tend to ALWAYS have someone Not agreeing with them. It's The non-thinkers that ALWAYS come in legions."
-John Callari | |
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Tsume
BOBBARR2008 .COM
join:2004-02-23
Winter Park, FL | Re: Heh... If this happened, the horrible PR would probably get the root domain system shifted over to the UN's ITU... | |
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cevans59
Premium
join:2003-08-14
Smithton, IL | Proposed Order Note that this is only a proposed order submitted by the plaintiff and is meaningless unless the judge signs it.
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I'm not a human, but I do play one on Earth. | |
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boognish
Premium
join:2001-09-26
Baton Rouge, LA
clubs: | hopefully ICANN will not do this If iCANN actually does suspend the name then that just gives a valid argument as to why ICANN should not be under US control. | |
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See 7 replies to this post |
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Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs: | Good to know. Good to know the Government is out fighting the good fight.  | |
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HangTheSCUM
@comcast.net
| The U.S. judicial system has once again failed the people SOS, DD.
The U.S. judicial system is broken and won't be fixed because too many criminals aka lawyers profit from the systematic erosion of justice.
They should all be ashamed and the criminals should be in jail not in positions of power on Capitol Hill. | |
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Krispy
Premium,VIP
join:2001-12-11
the stix
edit:
October 9th, @12:32PM
| Sad.. Sad but predictable given the justice system these days. I hear all kinds of stories about how law enforcement can't get known child exploitation and fraud sites taken down in other countries but somehow this warrants petitions to ICANN?
Spamhaus publishes an excellent list that my company chooses to use, Spamhaus has NEVER even contacted us to ask us to use it, we voluntarily use it because we don't want to reinvent the wheel and dedicate resources to compile a list of the same IPs. If Spamhaus goes bye-bye (which I seriously hope will not happen) we'll just have to dedicate resources to manually collecting IP address of spammers like e360insight and then manually input them into our filters.
We've used Spamhaus for years and to date we've received no credible complaints of legitimate email being blocked from our ~300K customers so I fail to see who is complaining that e360insight's important messages are not getting to them.
A case of the squeaky wheel gets the oil and once again a waste of tax payer money and potentially a ruling that will leverage additional costs upon your ISP ergo you.
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you can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink...you can put a man through school but you cannot make him think --ben harper
EDIT: Fixed spelling...need more caffeine! | |
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FiL
Premium
join:2005-08-16
Silver Spring, MD
| Re: Sad.. Last I remember, the court order was ready to bloom because the Spamhaus rep didnt show up for a court case that doesnt have jurisdiction over them. Thats wy this craps still going on.
Right to a speedy trial. Yea right. Only when the Judge needs to alleviate himself of crap. But then that'd be every second of the day! | |
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RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY
| Re: Sad.. said by FiL :Last I remember, the court order was ready to bloom because the Spamhaus rep didnt show up for a court case that doesnt have jurisdiction over them. Thats why this craps still going on. The problem is that they COULD NOT show up to argue the jurisdiction issue. If they did, they were admitting jurisdiction in the first place. Thus they were in a Catch-22 position where they had to default by not showing up. The question of jurisdiction should have been handled first as a separate issue. | |
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| | | soccerguy
join:2004-06-28
Seattle, WA | Re: Sad.. Wrong. A defendant can make a limited appearance for the sole purpose of challenging jurisdiction. | |
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RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY
| Re: Sad.. said by soccerguy :Wrong. A defendant can make a limited appearance for the sole purpose of challenging jurisdiction. All I know is what SPAMHaus was claiming as a reason for not showing up (or I may be getting it confused with a comment to that effect by someone-else in a discussion when the Judge's Ruling was first announced). | |
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raccettura
join:2002-09-28
USA
| It's out of reach From what I remember sitting through legal environments....
There's no question Spamhaus is legally out of reach.
They have *no* business presence or activity in the US, meaning they are not bound to US law. Simply because US customers use their service doesn't make them obligated to abide by US law...
If a company has a presence in a foreign country (like Yahoo in Europe) it's bound to their laws.
US companies who use the list may be subject to the courts decision... but I'd like to see the court go after everyone that uses the list.
I'll continue to personally use it. It's a great list. It's honest and accurate. | |
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rrz103
RichardZ
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Canton, MI
| Re: It's out of reach The U.S. courts have determined that lack of physical presence does not bar a lawsuit as long as jurisdiction can be maintained according to a State's long-arm statute and constitutional due process (the Calder effects test and the Zippo sliding scale).
It's possible and it's been going on for years.
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Rich Z - »www.richardz.com | |
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ExhaultedOne
@stigeequipment.com
| Let's be clear here Spamhouse is not blocking ANYTHING. The customers who CHOOSE to use the list they generate are the ones blocking. They do this voluntarily knowing it's not 100% perfect and there is a chance legitimate e-mail can be blocked as well. Which heck, that is not even the case here.
Oh but if some crack head kills someone for pocket change with an automatic weapon that's ok. We don't sue the manufacturer of the weapon do we. Of course not. They are immune to such suits. But we can sue the bejesus out of the little guy who is trying to make people lives better by offering them some measure of control of what e-mail they receive and don't receive.
This is a joke. | |
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MrBentor
join:2003-02-18
Seattle, WA |  Have you forgotton something?
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MrBentor
join:2003-02-18
Seattle, WA
| Spamhaus Accuracy... The reason the spammers hate Spamhaus is because of their over all Accuracy. I have ~5,000 users on one of my email systems that I manage. We use Spamhaus to blockspam that is on their list. We volunteered to purchase their list. On average they block 30,000 to 60,000 spam messaged every day. I average less than 3 complaints a month.
e360insigh IS a spammer, I have received spam from David Linhardt’s group. David Linhardt LIED when he said that he did not spam. Their listing on Spamhaus was correct.
What people forget is that as the subscriber to Spamhaus for their systems, They decide what email they are going to accept to THEIR SYSTEM. The users accept that and can go elsewhere if they don’t. We have decided that we will accept Spamhaus’ judgment of who to block and not to block. Overall Spamhaus seems very accurate, if not too permissive. Spamhaus doesn’t block anyone, they SUGGEST who to block. If I so choose to block mail from anyone named John, that would be my right. | |
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wesm
Wyvern.Org
Premium
join:1999-07-29
Saskatoon, SK
clubs:
| Location of defendants True, Spamhaus is in the UK, but ICANN is in the US. This is similar to attaching to domestic assets of foreign companies to enforce a judgement.
(Of course, I disagree with this proposed order actually being signed, but that's the legal situation we find ourselves in)
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Opinions expressed here are mine and not my employer's. This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights. | |
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hrobins
Premium
join:2000-10-15
Regina, SK
clubs:
edit:
October 9th, @03:57PM
| ICANN and the US Court System I at one time didn't want ICANN to go over to the UN ITU. But, now looking at how the US court system wants to suspension a UK companies domain address, I am starting to rethinking that viewpoint. | |
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| davisx
join:2005-01-06
·Shaw
| Re: ICANN and the US Court System And this is the scary thing. The potential for ICANN to turn into a corporate puppet (initiated by the US justice system) definitely exists.
If a US court order can engage ICANN to suspend a domain name (especially to a company that is involved in legitimate business) I sincerely hope that ICANN's control is turned to an international body | |
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Claybraker
join:2002-04-13
none
| If The Spammers Win This One... And kill the spamhaus.org domain, any doubt the same information will be back up on a different domain on a different host in less than 24 hours?
Spammers have been playing the whack-a-mole game for a while now, it's not unreasonable to expect the anti-spammers know how to play it too. | |
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squid7
Premium
join:2006-09-02
·Cox HSI
| Will never happen ICANN would fight it and the original judgement would be instantly killed as the Spammer filed false testimony to Spamhaus' doing business in IL which was a requirement for the default judgement the spammer received.
And should they push it I'm sure there is an IL legislator who would like to take this up as a CAN SPAM act deal so close to election time. Squashing a spammer (or starting down that road) certainly wouldn't hurt poll ratings. | |
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| MrBentor
join:2003-02-18
Seattle, WA
| Re: Will never happen Goes further than that.
The spammer would likely have to file in a federal district court with Persona Jurisdiction where ICANN is based. Basically federal court decisions and edits are generally limited to the region, district or circuit covered by any one court. ICANN will probably and rightfully so ignore any order without a full-bourn hearing with a court of competent jurisdiction.
ICANN has or can get obvious proof that e360insight is a spammer, and as the default judgment was based on fraud upon the court; as such a judgment, default or otherwise may be ignored if it is proven that the judgment was based upon fraud.
We likely have a Void Judgment for fraud upon the court. FRCP - Rule 60 (LII 2004 ed.) »www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/Rule60.htm | |
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FollowTheMoney
@cox.net
 from:
sweintz
| What the hell - follow the friggin money??? What I don't see anyone discussing is the damn money trail!
The point of spammers is to get you to go buy their Anatrim/Hoodia/whatever product. How do you buy?
With a credit card
The money is tracable! I have received unsolicited email from credit card processing companies specializing in "High Risk" transactions (specifically those accepting payments for rogue/fake anti-spyware programs). If someone would care to go after these processors, then we might be able to make a dent in the problem.
The way to cut off their balls is to stop the flow of money!
Matt Fleming
Alicent Small Business Solutions | |
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natter
join:2000-12-18
Littleton, CO
edit:
October 15th, @12:00AM
| Re: What the hell - follow the friggin money??? I just need to know whom to use now? After I switched from spamhaus (because I can't get to their domain any more) to spamcop, our spam has increased two fold.
Any have a good qmail-rbl list to use?
Thanks.
Oh, and another thing, this is from the other side of the story: »www.e360insight.com/case_history.html
He does have a point, we use Cogent as our Internet hook and our IPs were classifed as spam list IPs. (cogent is host for lots of spammers, porn,etc...) We asked many many times to be switched and only to find ourselves in the same situation. Finally, we got our own IPs and we were done with it. While we had the cogent ips, I attempted to contact spamhaus, spamcop,etc.. the only ones to answer us and allow us to prove that we're a legit ISP was spamcop. spamhaus just ignored us. So, I do see this guy's point. (if he really tried to contact them like he says...)
Reading more of this, whoops, a Lawyer representing Spamhaus located in IL made a signed appearance. »www.e360insight.com/show_case_doc3.pdf
»www.e360insight.com/show_case_doc4.pdf
In looking more at this case, it looks like spamhaus screwed up, fired both their attorneys and hid behind being in another country. This of course is my opinion and I'm basing it off of court papers filed at the above site. Am I missing something here? Looks pretty open and shut. Also, just because they are in another country, it doesn't matter. All the courts have to do is tell Level3, Cogent,etc.. to block all of Spamhaus's IPs and they are done. (well in the US).
Trust me, I hate spammers more than anything, but these guys have to give people a second chance to prove themselves. Like the example I gave above. Spamcop put us on a 'watch list' and said we would be put back on the list if they got more complaints, which of course did happen because some of our customers sent spam via virus and we showed them what action we took,etc.. and they never put us back on. I feel this guy's pain if he is really what he says. (a opt-in marketer..I have my doubts..( | |
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Court to Urge ICANN Spamhaus Suspension?
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ok I don't get it...