MPAA: Piracy Costs 140k Jobs Per Year$20.5 in lost revenue, and $800 in lost tax revenue ( old news - 05:37PM Friday Sep 29 2006) tags: legal · Video · Fileswapping · businessThe film industry is in Washington DC with a new study, trying to convince lawmakers of the irreparable harm film piracy does to the American economy, reports the Washington Post. This newest study, funded by the MPAA and distributed by former Conservative Rep turned think-tanker Dick Armey, claims "movie piracy causes a total lost output for U.S. industries of $20.5 billion per year, thwarts the creation of about 140,000 jobs and accounts for more than $800 million in lost tax revenue". According to the study, 38% of piracy occurs on the Internet - with counterfeit DVDs accounting for the rest.
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- Senators Question Secret Piracy Bill
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David
Last man standing
Premium,VIP
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL
clubs: | So I guess they didn't really prove that the internet was the source of thier problem. Good going MPAA, what a way to not prove your arguement!! | |
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Fountainhead
Premium
join:2003-10-25
New York, NY
clubs: | Re: So I guess they didn't really prove It's 38% of the problem..
So what is your point?
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TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
 ·Comcast
| Re: So I guess they didn't really prove said by Fountainhead  :It's 38% of the problem.. So what is your point? You beat me to that point. The internet piracy is still to the tune $7.8 billion. | |
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David
Last man standing
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join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL
clubs:
 ·AT&T Midwest
| said by Fountainhead :It's 38% of the problem.. So what is your point? They proved that 62% of the problem was not on the internet. | |
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FiL
Premium
join:2005-08-16
Silver Spring, MD
| Re: So I guess they didn't really prove i hear what Beach is saying; why go after the smaller outfits head on, with all that tenacity?
The AA's sue dead people. Grandmas. While Joe Publics on the street making a killin' off of 12cent blank dvd and cd burns.
Im skeptical on the number of jobs being lost due to the piraters. One lost job in the "industry" means another new employee for the pirates! See, it evens out.
Plus, 170,000 minumum wage jobs is NOT what the country needs at this point. | |
| | | | | | | | | | | RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
·XMission
| Re: So I guess they didn't really prove said by TK Junk Mail :The movie industry has numerous high paid UNION jobs. And any loss of jobs there aren't minimum wage ones. Wonder how many of those listed jobs were actually lost to automation and new technology? If the indications that my wife saw 15 years ago are still true, a lot of job losses in that industry are not piracy, but no longer needing the people. And with the animation affects that are getting such that it is hard to tell real people from animations, even more are lost (Shrek caused a big stink in that respect, and I heard that they had to dumb the art down to keep the unions from exploding).
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| | | | | | | AquaBlaze
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Encino, CA
| Re: So I guess they didn't really prove said by RayW :Wonder how many of those listed jobs were actually lost to automation and new technology? Bingo. Their job estimate is likely as well cooked as their piracy damages estimate. Even if piracy were to stop tomorrow and their "predicted" surge of happened, there wouldn't be a 140,000 job increase, if any at all.
Cry me another one MPAA. | |
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qdemn7
Smurf in My Loop
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Fort Worth, TX
| said by TK Junk Mail :said by FiL :Plus, 170,000 minumum wage jobs is NOT what the country needs at this point. The movie industry has numerous high paid UNION jobs. And any loss of jobs there aren't minimum wage ones. Quite true, but then Hollywood itself is it's own worst enemy.
If HOLLYWOOD as an industry was really concerned about American jobs then they wouldn't be making so many production in Canada, the UK and Australia not to mention Eastern Europe.
When they start making all of their films in the US, I'll listen to what they say.
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kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY
 ·Packet8
edit:
September 29th, @06:45PM
| Re: Unions still strong in Hollywood said by TK Junk Mail :» findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m···92808160Roughly 70 percent of the estimated 800,000 entertainment workers in Los Angeles County--a catchall category that includes everyone from actors and professional dancers to prop handlers and electricians--are members of trade unions, according to AFL-CIO's Center for Regional Employment Strategies. ROFLMAO - do you even read your own links? there you go, you have just said it:
estimated 800,000 entertainment workers in Los Angeles County--a catchall category that includes everyone from actors and professional dancers to prop handlers and electricians-- A shining example of the "creative arts" of bookeeping, accounting....
"Lies, damn lies and statistics." | |
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wifi4milez
In Need Of Garbage Pail Kids 1st Series
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| Re: Unions still strong in Hollywood said by kamm :"Lies, damn lies and statistics." I would say that 70% counts as most people. Not really sure what figures you are going by.......
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | wev567
join:2006-02-25
Pittsburgh, PA | Members of many of these unions work maybe a half a dozen days a year. The majority of SAG mambers can barely afford to pay for the discounted health care plans it offers. Entertainment unions are like the steelworkers. | |
| | | | | | | fldiver
Premium
join:1999-12-27
Jacksonville, FL | Re: So I guess they didn't really prove LOL; and who knows how many items are outsourced to countries like India?? | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
| Re: So I guess they didn't really prove said by MysticGogeta :said by TK Junk Mail :said by FiL :Plus, 170,000 minumum wage jobs is NOT what the country needs at this point. The movie industry has numerous high paid UNION jobs. And any loss of jobs there aren't minimum wage ones. When your at the job who do they cut first the low paid shit workers and then they outsource the job out to india, the big ceos and high paid jobs are kept because they have skills higher pay doesnt mean they have any skills. a Plumber is more skilled then any CEO(a CEO probally has to call for help to plug in the coffee maker like other rich people) but gets paid "shit".
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MysticGogeta
The Robot Devil
Premium
join:2005-03-14
League City, TX
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: So I guess they didn't really prove A plumber makes alot of money quite actually your metaphor is quite off. If I owned a plumbing company, and I had alot of jobs to do I would hire a few more plumber assistants to help me out, so lets say Joe does not work as hard as Smith and is not as skilled as him. Jobs slow down and I need to fire someone because of it I would fire Joe. This is the same idea just on a much larger scale. | |
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jwsmiths4
Part Man, Part Mac
Premium
join:2003-10-25
Savannah, GA
| The jobs that are being lost aren't in movie production I bet (afterall i don't see any shortage of movies being made) -- they're in the distribution channels, retail sales, whatever else.
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»web.mac.com/jwsmiths/iWeb | |
| | | | | markopoleo
join:2003-04-02
Bonne Terre, MO | So the loss is in the USA, while it created a 170k street vendors jobs. I don't see the problem :P | |
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David
Last man standing
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Granite City, IL
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| Re: So I guess they didn't really prove said by markopoleo :So the loss is in the USA, while it created a 170k street vendors jobs. I don't see the problem :P Damn, you thought the same thing I did! | |
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David
Last man standing
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Granite City, IL
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| said by FiL :i hear what Beach is saying; why go after the smaller outfits head on, with all that tenacity? The AA's sue dead people. Grandmas. While Joe Publics on the street making a killin' off of 12cent blank dvd and cd burns. Im skeptical on the number of jobs being lost due to the piraters. One lost job in the "industry" means another new employee for the pirates! See, it evens out. Plus, 170,000 minumum wage jobs is NOT what the country needs at this point. The other part of the Nice going MPAA way not to prove your arguement, was when the RIAA/MPAA ordered the pirate bay to be shut down earlier this year (illegally in thier country per say) so with this report that's pretty much evidence that they did not have a case to shut them down as they originally thought. Now thepiratebay.org 's staff (after seeing this probably) will hand this to thier attourney for a harrassment suit. After all they proved that 38% of the internet was the problem, and 62% was not the problem. Either way they pretty much hung themselves.
So like I said Good job guys, try not to prove your point next time so the whole world can see how stupid you guys really are!
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TK Junk Mail
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Margate City, NJ
clubs:
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| Re: So I guess they didn't really prove said by David :. After all they proved that 38% of the internet was the problem, and 62% was not the problem. Either way they pretty much hung themselves. So like I said Good job guys, try not to prove your point next time so the whole world can see how stupid you guys really are! Keep this post in mind when a thief breaks into your house and ONLY steals 38% of your posessions. Don't bother calling the police because 62% was left. So the theft doesn't count, RIGHT??
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| | | | | | | Capharnaum
join:2006-06-19
Montreal, QC
| Re: So I guess they didn't really prove said by TK Junk Mail :said by David :. After all they proved that 38% of the internet was the problem, and 62% was not the problem. Either way they pretty much hung themselves. So like I said Good job guys, try not to prove your point next time so the whole world can see how stupid you guys really are! Keep this post in mind when a thief breaks into your house and ONLY steals 38% of your posessions. Don't bother calling the police because 62% was left. So the theft doesn't count, RIGHT?? How about: when a thief breaks into your house and then copies only 38% of your possessions. Cause it's not like the movie industry doesn't have their product anymore. | |
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mazhurg
Premium
join:2004-05-02
Trenton, ON | This is for anybody that buys into so called "studies" funded by self-interest groups...
Psst... want to buy the Brooklyn bridge? good deal!
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GlennAllen
join:2002-11-17
Richmond, VA | Re: So I guess they didn't really prove "This is for anybody that buys into so called "studies" funded by self-interest groups..." Such as, unfortunately, that other group in D.C., aka Congress. | |
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Cthen
join:2004-08-01
Ypsilanti, MI
·Comcast
| said by Fountainhead :It's 38% of the problem.. So what is your point? That the MPAA and you are full of sh** is probably the point.
This newest study, funded by the MPAA That says it all to me.  | |
| | MeKuN
join:2004-07-21
Eugene, OR
| And yet the movie industry feels the need to pump out remade movies and then blame it on piracy. I know a pirates of the carribean made big money, it was worth seeing. How come they dont see a pattern of you make a good movie people will go see it, instead of make crap try and trick people to see it and when attendance drops blame it on piracy.
Take a college course, pull your head out of your ass 101. | |
| | NormanS
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| The Internet, eh?
In the last eight years I have purchased, maybe, two dozen MPAA DVDs (at least half of them either Buena Vista releases of Studio Ghibli films, or Pioneer releases of some of the lesser anime studios in Japan), and a dozen RIAA music CDs.
Not that I am a piker, nor that I have downloaded their product. If I don't think it is worth buying, I certainly am not going get the pirated version. Junk is still just junk, even if it is grabbed from a pirate site.
I am not a slouch on spending though. In the same period of time I have probably purchased a hundred, or so, DVDs. Mostly foreign stuff (including a was of Studio Ghibli films on Region 2 DVDs). Same with the music CDs. In the latter case, I am willing to pay 2x U.S. CD prices for the music; the Japanese recording studios can't be spending more on production than the U.S. studios, do you think? But they sure stick it to the Japanese consumer!
The point being, the U.S. media purveyors won't offer product that I will pay for. There aren't enough of us for them to bother with. If they can't sell a million a month, they won't package it, and sell it.
If they really want my money, why don't they offer me something I will pay for?
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Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
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| | iotastorm
join:2006-01-24
Florissant, MO | ...and 70% of those jobs will be OUTSOURCED | |
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kingdom2k
@charter.com
| Not asking the right questions.
What you should be asking is where did these numbers come from. Considering that most piracy is done in private and in secret how in the world do they compute lost sales? So where does the number of lost sales come from?
Another question is the value placed on that lost sale. Is a DVD $30, $20, or $10? I bet since the suggested retail value of most DVDs is $30 (even though never sold at that price), that means that the numbers are automatically inflated 2x over their true value.
What about song sales, do they count the going iTunes rate of $1.00 per song or do they go with the suggested retail price of $20 per CD? Again, that leads to a high inflated value.
Finally, what is the ratio of pirate items to lost sales? I am betting, again to maximize the number they report, they decide its 1 to 1. That means for every item pirated, thats an item that wasn't sold in the market, but is that really true? Is it really true that if the person couldn't buy an item pirated they would buy it at retail? So if can't download the movie they go buy a ticket? They go get the DVD? If they can't get the song, they go and buy the CD? I mean really, what are that chances of that being 1:1? I say none.
So, really, you are looking at a value that is exaggerated in every way possible. What part of the presented stats are even valid? Who don't know because no one asks.
Ever heard of the saying from Mark Twain? "There are lies, damn lies and statistics." The MPAA have an agenda and whatever data they present will be to maximize that agenda. Always always questions where the data comes from and how its derived. | |
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rachelsfx
join:2004-09-27
Pensacola, FL
·Cox HSI
| I agree The movie industry is one of the few with a huge surplus for the USA. Lost revenue does equal lost tax revenue.
If you watch you should pay to watch it not get a DVD for $5 from some street vendor or download from China.
Movies cost a lot of money to make. $200 million+ for the summer blockbuster. Add another $50-100 million to market.
In this arena, it does cost jobs. It does erode our trade deficit. You want to watch--pay for it like your parents did. | |
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See 25 replies to this post | |
Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02 | 140.000 jobs.... Or just one yacht for Dick Armey or any of a hundred overpaid Hollywood executives. | |
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See 19 replies to this post | |
RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
·XMission
| 20.5 Billion in losses? Wonder how they came up with that figure? From what I was told, most companies with that theft rate would be out of business fast. Of course to our 'lawmakers', that is probably just a few days of spending.
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
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Dr Demento
I Vant Blud
join:2002-01-02
Denville, NJ
·Optimum Online
| Re: 20.5 Billion in losses? So if I don't get a job at Blockbuster I know who to blame. What kind of polls does the MPAA take to come up with these figures and the fact is it still dwarfs what the top movies get at the box office.  | |
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swhx7
Premium
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Elbonia
·RoadRunner Cable
edit:
September 29th, @06:03PM
| said by RayW :Wonder how they came up with that figure? From what I was told, most companies with that theft rate would be out of business fast.
The way they came up with that figure is in all probability the same way they come up with all their "losses to piracy" numbers: they •use some questionable method for estimating the number of units pirated, and then•multiply by the full retail price. This is the invariable method used by the MPAA (movies) and RIAA (music) and BSA (software police).
In other words, they first make up some high number of units. In the past for example, they have simply referred to the number of CDRs and DVDRs sold - assuming all of them were used for piracy! - never mind all the backups, home video, recordings from one's own TV or CD's, etc. (Likewise the BSA has assumed that a computer will have X units of commercial software, and multiply by the number of computers, and if sales are less than that, they assume the rest is piracy.)
Then they assume that every infringing copy would have been purchased at full retail price. They may be entitled to full retail price in some moral or legal sense, but to count it as a "loss" is to claim that they purchases would have been made if not for the piracy. This is realistic only on the MPAA/RIAA/BSA planet, on Earth it is bogus.
What's really disgraceful is that the media accept the grossly inflated numbers without having the journalistic integrity to question the bizarre and preposterous methodology. | |
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reub2000
Premium
join:2001-12-28
Evanston, IL | 140.000 jobs? Just think about how many people the ISPs, and makers of MP3 players employ, and a few jobs lost to piracy isn't that bad.
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See 8 replies to this post | |
Kilroy
Premium,MVM
join:2002-11-21
Sterling Heights, MI
| I wonder How much job loss does crummy product cost? Hollywood hasn't had an original idea in quite some time. We get the sequel of this or the remake of that. Does this take into account that they are making TV shows of the 80s into movies that no one wants to see?
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LiberalKing
Intocable
Premium
join:2005-09-12
Bronx, NY
| Re: I wonder ahhhhh..... im feeling "CRANK" for tonight or maybe "the butterfly effect 2" help me out guys.
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anonys
@comcast.net | Ree: How about manufacturing jobs we loose every month to chinese.
Who's going to fight for it?? | |
| Zoder
join:2002-04-16
Miami, FL
| How much is attributed to China What's often overlooked is that most of the piracy takes place in China. I doubt this study looks into what percentage of this perceived loss is due to them.
Congress can pass all of the heavy handed laws that they want but until the Secretary of Commerce and the US Trade Representative gets tough on the Chinese government over this issue, nothing will change.
But go ahead MPAA and lobby Congress to pass more restrictive laws. All you will do is piss off more of your paying customers.
P.S. Does anyone have a link to the study? | |
| | sago
join:2001-12-19
| Re: How much is attributed to China Apparently the problem in some foreign countries is that they don't follow the Berne Convention. There are countries, many of them (perhaps the vast majority) in the Far East, that simply don't enforce copyrights. In other words, it's that US Copyright doesn't mean anything "over there". So piracy is not even so much about people breaking their local laws, it's more like that the local laws don't exist - there aren't any laws to break regarding copyright in the first place. Or at least US copyrights aren't recognized as valid in some of these countries. This is probably going to change, because of globalization, political pressure, and so on. China has just recently started enforcing something at this point. So it's not about "busting" people as much as it is about international trade agreements, getting both countries on the same page when it comes to copyrights and enforcing copyrights. Essentially, it's about making US Copyrights (or Canadian copyrights, UK coyprights etc...) valid on a global scale.
And, of course, there is also the "falling behind the times" thing -- I think the way that both music and movie "purchases" are carried out these days perhaps ought to be reconsidered.
How many movies does an average person watch in a month? Obviously, an individual who was very wealthy could purchase 25,000 DVDs and Music CD's, but would be unable to watch or listen to them all in any relatively short period of time.
There is a limitation, based on the fact that we are human beings and that there are only 24 hours in a day, and that we all have limited lifespans and are not immortal -- furthermore, as human beings, we tend to have jobs, chores, things to fix around the house, lawns to mow, flowers to plant, kids to raise, laundry to wash, groceries to buy, dinners to make.... you get the idea.
For movies specifically, I think the idea of "unlimited pay-per-view", say, for instance, from a selection of 50,000+ movies, avaliable "on-demand", for $50 per month or so, for example, might be workable. For those who watch less, perhaps the pay-per-views could be charged individually.
In any case, with both music and movies, we are at a point where the industry needs to recognize the inherent limitations that human beings have which prevent them from from watching an unlimited amount of movies. This is different from p2p, because with p2p, you can have one copy of a movie made available to essentially a very large number of people (and the solution to this is to illegalize leeching, not encourage it). So when you have, say, 80,000 people working together watching movies, they can watch more movies than any one individual can even through the course of an entire lifetime.
Recognizing the time limitiations of any single individual highlights the problem that leeching on p2p creates. What needs to happen is that the databases of movies need to be brought online, and an interface to a set-top box needs to be created. The future is probably in pay-per-view. | |
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SkimFlux
@novis.pt
| Re: How much is attributed to China In Lisbon we already have a flat rate card for movie goers. It's 13€ (~15 USD) per month and you can watch unimited movies in a few theaters (for comparison, regular ticket prices are about 5€). Not all releases are available in those theaters, but they cover most releases here.
A few friends I know who do have the card will watch around 4-5 movies per month, as opposed to 2-3 before the card was available. See something curious? They're spending about as much now as before this card was available, but they are seeing more movies and they will often recomend those movies they like, so more people go see them.
I don't think the distribution company who makes these cards is complaning about lost sales either, they are still advertising them. | |
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XoLiMiT
join:2001-10-04
Newark, NJ
| cry babies I personally think we should start an organization called "STFU RIAA/MPAA". We simply make a $1 donation along with a FU card and we'll be able to hand them a check for more than their losses so they can shut up.
The job tactic in congress is BS we all know that the exaggeration ration on that is more than 25% and MUST include all markets world wide. We also all know that piracy is 3 times greater in china/other places than in the US. Why don't they go after other countries? because if people didn't get it pirated they would not get it period since they can't afford it. Since "most" Americans have "some" money let's make sure they give it up since we can't control piracy anywhere else in the world.
Like it was said before does jobs are like 50%+ jobs that would be overseas but since the companies overall income would be based in the USA they would have to pay tax revenue on it, so they can claim the jobs bs.
If it wasn't for piracy/file sharing we would all still be rocking 56k modems. Millions of customers would not get dsl/cable services. Which in itself provides a tremendous amount of jobs from installers to tech support to engineers to consultants which balance out the scale. Then we have the beginning/expansion of companies such as netflix which bring in MPAA revenue due to the use of new technologies(wide spread use of internet due to referrals).
We all know that if it wasn't for the downloading of games/apps/videos/music we would not need 10mbit pipes to some extent.
I don't know about everyone else but i don't like movie reviews by newspapers/magazines etc.
I don't want some 60 year old guy telling me that spiderman is not a good movie because of this and this.
The persons age is definitely an issue so is the taste of movies the person has etc. If it wasn't for web technologies i wouldn't even see the trailers for so many movies to eventually end up seeing them in theaters.
I think the MPAA should just allow people to download their movies legally and make use of the technologies out there
In conclusion i think people are getting to addicted to the Hollywood scene/music scene. They lookup up to no good celebrities that are full of themselves. I am a teenager but MTV scares me when my 5yr nieces dance like the strippers in the videos etc.
wow this was like my longest post. | |
| zod5000
join:2003-10-21
Edmonton, AB
·TELUS
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| woah woah woah People didn't pay tax on the blank dvd's they subtituted for store bought dvd's. They also didn't pay taxes on the dvd burners and computers they had to buy to copy them? How about on the internet connection they downloaded the movies off? Or the modchip they slammed in their xbox? 
Btw not every pirate movie is a lost sale either. For the price of a 20 dollar dvd.. you could buy 50-100 blank dvd's. So if you burned 75 dvd's, it doesn't mean you had 1500 to spend on the original copies.. lol!
If those jobs are being lost in dvd manufacturing they're easily absorbed somewhere else.. It just means the money is flowing to other sectors.. whatever the consumer spends their money on is still taxed. | |
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Fountainhead
Premium
join:2003-10-25
New York, NY
clubs:
| Re: woah woah woah Wah wah wah..
The actors get paid too much, the executives are all rich fat cats, the movies all suck, it's nothing but sequels..
Wah wah wah..
Get a video camera, you and your sister can make all the homemade movies you want, you can burn them onto dvd's, and the family can enjoy them all you want.
Thats legal.
Stealing off the internet... that's illegal.
Can't understand why? Don't agree with it?
Then you are a spoiled brat and your parents raised you with a false sense of entitlement.
Oh... and you aren't special.. No matter what your Mom told you.
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It's all part of my rock and roll fantasy | |
| | | bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
·Packet8
·Cox HSI
| Re: woah woah woah said by Fountainhead :Oh... and you aren't special.. No matter what your Mom told you. Is anyone ?! 
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| | | zod5000
join:2003-10-21
Edmonton, AB
·TELUS
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| Stealing off the internet is illegal the US, not everywhere else. Don't have the same copyright laws in Canada.
Btw I also have a pretty big original dvd collection, however i am fiscally constrained, so I do have backed up moves as well. Its not like they are a lost sale to the movie company, I wouldn't off been able to afford them anyways. They still make money off me.
I'd feel more sorry for the movie companies if they weren't making billions of dollars. I'm also sorry that you've been brainwashed by the American corporate machine. | |
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Kylemaul
Lovin' My Firefox 1.5.x
Premium
join:2001-03-30
North Port, FL
clubs: | How much did you have to pay the owners of the Beavis & Butthead shows to use their character in your avatar? | |
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folks like you.