Michigan Fiber Project Battles With VerizonVerizon insists project place completely new poles ( old news - 11:15AM Wednesday Aug 16 2006) tags: Fiber · competition · municipalThe Muskegon Chronicle is running a piece on a plan by local schools and governments to run fiber to five rural Michigan communities. A debate has sprung up over the project's need to place completely new poles along streets, as Verizon won't allow the project to share space. "Verizon's claim that state law prevents it from allowing use of its poles is the latest snag in the $3 million fiber project that is two years behind schedule. Local officials are fuming about Verizon's actions, calling them "delay tactics" and "sabotage." The total cost of avoiding Verizon poles is estimated at more than $300,000, said officials with the Muskegon Area Intermediate School District, which spearheaded the fiber project. By law, Verizon must allow educational entities to use its power poles that are in public right-of-ways, but there's a local debate over whether that law covers consortiums like the Shoreline fiber network. Threatened financially, Verizon is clearly suggesting it does not. Instead of wasting time fighting Verizon in court, the project simply skipped the 125 Verizon poles and planted their own. Related:- Tuesday Evening Links
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 utahluge
join:2004-10-14 Draper, UT | ha Geeze... I am no expert but they could have made money off letting them use the poles. Still, way to go for just saying 'Screw You!' and putting up new poles! | |
|  |   Transmaster Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20 Cheyenne, WY | Re: ha Works for me  | |
|  |  lesopp
join:2001-06-27 Land O Lakes, FL | Now we'll start seeing a "Muni Defense Recovery Fee" on our Verizon bills. | |
|  ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16 Stratford, CT
1 edit | haha Good for Verizon in sticking up for its business.. Once again I have to voice my opinion that municipalities should not be entering into this market. All these muni networks will start off cheap or free.. and when they claim enough of the market it will simply become a TAX on the people in order to create revenue. Prices will skyrocket.. just as tolls on bridges and tunnels .. the same as parking fines.
Verizon has plans to build out FiOS eventually.. its just a stupid move on the government. FiOS will eventually kick its ass and it'll be a failed project and a waste of taxes. | |
|  |  shoan
join:2006-02-27 Benton, AR
| Re: haha this said from someone that is posting in the bronx so where were they just yesterday was there nto a news blerb about verison concentrating on the new york city area so since you can either get fios now or really soon you say to hell with what the local community decided for it's self who knows if verizon would ever bless them with the designation of being profitable enough to deploy there. So let thier people have what they want. If it turns out bad for them then they will learn from it if it turns out good for them then yay. But don't stand in thier way Verizon. | |
|  |  |   batterup I Can Not Tell A Lie. Premium join:2003-02-06 Netcong, NJ clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: haha said by shoan : So let thier people have what they want. If it turns out bad for them then they will learn from it if it turns out good for them then yay. But don't stand in thier way Verizon. Verizon did not stand in their way, the law of Michigan stood in the way. Why didn't Michigan change the law? Why can't people see through the B.S.? | |
|  |  |  |  hottboiinnc ME
join:2003-10-15 Cleveland, OH
·Time Warner Cable
·buckeye cable
| Re: haha You must have read this: By law, Verizon must allow educational entities to use its power poles that are in public right-of-ways.
Weather they were using this fiber network for educational and public or not. VZ was STILL required by LAW to allow the educational bodies to use the poles for this purpose. Don't be surprised if the schools don't decide to pull their communication needs from VZ and move to a CLEC or VoIP system of their own. | |
|  |  |  |  |   batterup I Can Not Tell A Lie. Premium join:2003-02-06 Netcong, NJ clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: haha said by hottboiinnc : Don't be surprised if the schools don't decide to pull their communication needs from VZ and move to a CLEC or VoIP system of their own. Well duh, why do you think they are running a private network. They are not going to use Verizon even if Verizon let them use the poles. They wanted to use Verizon conduits to pull under ground wires. Verizon said OK but Verizon wanted to be able to use the fiber. The cabal told Verizon no and dug a separate trench.
I wonder what this cabal would say to a third party that want to use their poles to run fiber for the common people. I'll bet it would be NO. | |
|  |  JSRoman Premium join:2005-03-10 Callahan, FL
| Normally I would agree but in this case it looks like this fiber network is purely for government and school use. This is going to save the schools and municipalities a ton of cash. If I was a resident in these area and had any Verizon service I would make sure to cancel my Verizon service to show my disapproval of their hardball tactics. Good for them for just going around Verizon and avoiding having to go to court. -- Bush Derangement Syndrome: the acute onset of paronia in otherwise normal people in reaction to the policies, the presidency--nay-the very existence of George W. Bush.---
Charles Krauthammer | |
|  |  |  shoan
join:2006-02-27 Benton, AR
| Re: haha It jsut seems to me that Verizon and the Muni could quit fighting and make a coop type agreement. There are bigger things out there that need the money that get wasted on lawsuits to fight the deployment like I don't know maybe deploying service lol. | |
|  |  |   GOLFnSUN Enjoy the sun Premium join:2002-03-03 Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| said by JSRoman :Normally I would agree but in this case it looks like this fiber network is purely for government and school use. I'll bet that if that was true, Verizon wouldn't have fought it. But it isn't:
To further reduce costs, and spread the benefits of fiber optics, the MAISD invited the county, Central Dispatch, Muskegon Community and Baker colleges and a nonprofit Internet-service provider to join the project, -- -- Join Red Room Forum BLOG tkjunkmail.blogspot.com My Web Page | |
|  |  |  |   tsu9
join:2001-08-17 Wheeling, IL | Re: haha Good thing those non-profit organizations aren't out to make a profit, much like schools and government. | |
|  |  |  |  Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26 North Andover, MA
·Verizon FIOS
| Which means they're not offering service. They're simply offering the network for open competition. Exactly as a municipal project should do. This should scare Verizon, as it will take away the advantage of owning the network, and providing service on it. Of course it says nothing for their ethics that they try to sue in order to stop this completely legit type of competition. This is the consequence of squeezing all your competitors off your own network; society SHOULD be correcting this inefficiency. | |
|  |  |  |  |   batterup I Can Not Tell A Lie. Premium join:2003-02-06 Netcong, NJ clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: haha said by Ahrenl :Which means they're not offering service. They're simply offering the network for open competition. Wrong, it is a private network, the public be damned. | |
|  |  |  |   The Answer Guy
@12.162.x.x
| You didn't highlight the right parts.
"To further reduce costs, and spread the benefits of fiber optics, the MAISD invited the county, Central Dispatch, Muskegon Community and Baker colleges and a nonprofit Internet-service provider to join the project,... "
The law states that only educational instititutions or educational users are allowed by law to attach to a telephone companies poles. The government and other community departments don't qualify unless they only use it for education. | |
|  |  |  Dolgan Premium join:2005-10-01 Sun Prairie, WI
·Verizon Online DSL
| Utter BS for Verizon to block it. There are no current plans to install FIOS in any of the Upper Midwest Region{other than Ft Wayne, IN where it is currently offered}. VZ is still involved in talks to try and sell the region and will not be doing any upgrades to the network untill the talks fail. Maybe if more communities take this action throughout the country, VZ and the other telcos will get off their arses and start deploying next gen networks throughout their footprints. | |
|  |  |  |  Nuts
join:2006-04-27 Forest, OH | Re: haha Dolgan, you hit the nail right on the head. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   Transmaster Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20 Cheyenne, WY
·Qwest.net
| What you say might be true in The Bronx but don't think it is necessary true for everyplace else. If the incumbents won't install a system then cities need to do things for themselves. A good digital network is very important to a city to attract businesses. -- The older I get the more I prefer the company of my dogs over that of man kind. | |
|  |   Dalton Township resi
@charter.com
from: lesopp 
| ITALIAN926, unlike you, I am actually a resident of the county in question. And unlike you, I am very supportive of the county in this case. First of all, the law in question is being interpreted very narrowly by Verizon, and I'm sure the lawmakers never intended it to be interpreted in that manner (of course, since the phone companies practically write the damn telecommunications act every time it's revised, the legislators often seem to have no idea what they are passing).
Second, when this project was originally conceived, it was only intended to link the county's schools (note that one of the colleges is a Community college that is funded by the county, and the other has an adjacent campus so there is no extra cost to interconnect the two campuses) and certain governmental offices, several of which were in areas where Verizon had not deployed even basic DSL, and wouldn't give any sort of guarantee that they would do so. When Verizon started playing hardball, I think the county decided that if Verizon was going to do that, they needed to bring others into the system to share the costs. Note that there are still no plans to have a for-profit Internet provider share in this system, so it's NOT a typical muni system as most people here define it. My guess is that the "non-profit" provider is Merit or MichNet (which interconnect the state's colleges and universities), but that's just a guess.
Given the bad taste Verizon has left in everyone's mouth, it would not surprise me if in the future the county tells Verizon to go screw themselves when they want to sell services to the county or the schools, or for that matter, when they want to place new poles. I notice the county is now talking about using VoIP, which would probably never even have been under consideration (not for quite some time, anyway), had it not been for Verizon's tactics.
Verizon could probably have avoided all of this by offering DSL throughout the county in a timely manner, but they chose to play the role of the big, bad telephone company. Nice way to burn your bridges, Verizon. | |
|  |  |   Fatal Vector
join:2005-11-26 | Perhaps I'm missing something here
But, WTF does verizon have to do with sharing poles in MI?
AT&T is the telco in MI, INCLUDING the muskegon area as far as I know. | |
|  |  |  |  Dolgan Premium join:2005-10-01 Sun Prairie, WI
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Perhaps I'm missing something here Wrong. There are multiple ILECs in every state. AT&T{former Ameritech} has almost every major city in the upper Midwest, Verizon{former GTE} has most of the small to medium cities, and there are several smaller outfits{Centurytel & etc.} that serve the smaller communities. | |
|  |  |  |  Tom517
join:2006-07-13 Greenville, SC
| Actually it's a toss-up. In MI, most poles are actually owned by the electric utilities. I would think that in outlying areas, they belong to whoever put up the poles first...especially in outlying areas where GTE was once the telephone company. | |
|  |  |  |   Dalton Township resi
@charter.com
| As Dolgan pointed out, every state is served by multiple phone companies. Verizon in Michigan has the former GTE and Alltel/Contel exchanges. A decade ago, GTE's Michigan headquarters were located in Muskegon (they even built a corporate office suite out by the airport), because Muskegon was the largest city they had in Michigan, and they served a "pocket" consisting of most a three county area (Muskegon, Oceana, and Mason counties). But they have many more exchanges scattered throughout the state. Of course, most of the corporate stuff went away from this area after GTE and Bell Atlantic merged to form Verizon. Not that I think anyone really misses GTE - their service ranged from awful to barely usable in many parts of their service area (especially rural areas).
AT&T has much of Ottawa county, which is just to the south of Muskegon County (though there are a few smaller independents in Ottawa County as well), and most of Newaygo County, which is just to the east. But AT&T has very few lines in Muskegon County, and they only have those because exchange boundaries don't fall exactly on county lines. | |
|  |  |  PeterCollins
join:2005-05-23 Geneva, IL | Re: haha I'm not an expert on Michigan law, but it would seem the easiest way to get on the poles would be for the non-profit to apply for CLEC status. If they got it, they could ride any utility poles they liked and would have the legal authority to do so. | |
|  |  |   xdeadhead 220, 221, Whatever It Takes. Premium join:2000-11-08 Mechanicsburg, PA | if you think VZ cares about that, youre mistaken. they dont care about anything but getting ivan another ivory backscratcher. | |
|  |  |   The Answer Guy
@12.162.x.x
| "the law in question is being interpreted very narrowly by Verizon, and I'm sure the lawmakers never intended it to be interpreted in that manner "
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. If they are going to write a law, the need to spell it out clearly. Leaving loose ends hanging is never a good idea. Is Verizon somehow to blame in how the law is written? Maybe you should spend your time complaining to the people that acutally wrote the laws and not at a "user" of the laws.
"several of which were in areas where Verizon had not deployed even basic DSL"
What city or town for that matter does Verizon not have DSL installed in this area? Let us know when you find one. I for one will not hold my breath waiting for your answer. | |
|  |  |  |   batterup I Can Not Tell A Lie. Premium join:2003-02-06 Netcong, NJ clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: haha said by The Answer Guy :
"several of which were in areas where Verizon had not deployed even basic DSL" Remember this is a private fiber network, the public will not have access to it. The revenue lost to these profitable customers will have to be made up by the people red-lined by the private network. | |
|  |  |  |   Dalton Township resi
@charter.com
| To "The Answer Guy" (although I don't recall asking any questions) - note that I was referring to the time when this project was first being contemplated, at which point DSL was not available anywhere in the county outside of a few areas within the Muskegon exchange proper - specifically, it was not available in Fruitport, Ravenna, Holton, or Twin Lake, nor even in many of the Muskegon central offices, and I'm not sure if it had yet been implemented in any part of the Whitehall exchange (though it was certainly not available throughout that exchange). However, even today, DSL is not available in much of the county, for two reasons. One is the apparent incompetence of Verizon - people call to request DSL, are told they can get it by the customer service rep, then a week later are told that their lines are too old to provide the service or some similar excuse. It appears that some people at Verizon would rather find a reason not to provide the service than to figure out a way to actually get it to the customer. I know of two specific instances where this has happened (in one case the customer persisted and finally did get service, but many people would not have gone to the trouble he went to. In the other case, the customer just gave up and finally went with cable broadband).
The other reason is related to the first, in that apparently you have to be fairly close to a Verizon central office or remote terminal to get the service. That means that there are even places in the Muskegon exchange itself where the service isn't available - for example, unless something has changed recently, you can't get DSL in Cloverville (only a couple miles east of the Wal-Mart near US-31), and yes, there is a school out there, along with several businesses. Keep in mind that just because DSL is available somewhere in an exchange does not mean it is available everywhere in that exchange.
One further comment on the cables: Bear in mind that many of the telephone cables in the Muskegon area are legacy copper left over from GTE, which if you have ever had the misfortune of being a GTE customer, you might realize that this old cable often delivers less than optimal frequency response, but sometimes plenty of hum and noise, making it unusable for DSL. In some places the cables have been upgraded within the last decade, but there's still plenty of old stuff out there (especially the old aerial cables). So they may offer DSL in an exchange, but actually getting DSL can be a real crap shoot.
As for your point about spelling out a law clearly, I generally agree (and really hate the fact that the lawmakers let the phone companies all but write the law for them, and I do plan on expressing my displeasure at the voting booth this year), but on the other hand, corporate attorneys seem to be able to take any law (and especially telecommunications law) and twist it from the clear meaning that the lawmakers, and most any casual reader would attribute to it. I don't believe there is any such limitation in the law, but my guess is that this was simply a stalling tactic by Verizon - they figured they could tie up the matter in litigation for a few years, by which time they'd either have sold their Michigan holdings (as some news stories have indicated they are trying to do) or have finally condescended to start installing FIOS. I guess they didn't figure out that the county really didn't need to deal with them at all (and that just tickles me to death - I love it when greedy corporations shoot themselves in the foot!).
Now if you have any more questions, you are "The Answer Guy", so you can do your own research. I have long suspected that some of the people posting here, and you just may be one of them, are simply shills for the telephone companies (that is, they are paid to post pro-telephone-company messages in these forums). So don't call yourself "The Answer Guy" if you are going to ask baited questions, and don't quote just a fragment of someone's message to set up a straw man argument - if you had quoted the entire context it would have been clear that I was not speaking of the situation as it exists today. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   ropeguru Premium join:2001-01-25 Bridgeport, WV clubs: | Last time I checked... The public right of way that Verizon's poles sit in are not the property of Verizon but of the municipality or state in which they are located. -- FWD#: 223611 | |
|  |  See 11 replies to this post | |
 alchav
join:2002-05-17 Palm Desert, CA | If you can't go underground.......Forget It!
I'm all for Muni Fiber Projects, but keep up with the times, putting up more poles will be an eyesore. I know people don't like trenching and it cost more, but in the long run I think it is a lot better. | |
|  |   batterup I Can Not Tell A Lie. Premium join:2003-02-06 Netcong, NJ clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Whose common good?? quote: This is a classic case of a project that has been developed for the common good going up against corporate self-interest," said MAISD Superintendent Susan Meston.
The private fiber network may be good for MAISD but it is not good for anyone with an index S&P 500 stock fund.
Now the headline on this *news* thread could have read, *MAISD* refuses to let Verizon use fiber cable being pulled through Verizon's conduit. That would not be in accord with the agenda though.
With private interests like MAISD cherry picking allover the country who is going to wire the great unwashed masses? | |
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