 
EUS
Kill cancer
Premium
join:2002-09-10
Montreal, QC
clubs:  | Bound to happen At least they're more upfront about it. Insomuch as to cover their butts.... | |
|  | 
tsu
join:2001-08-17
Wheeling, IL | Re: Bound to happen Eh. Not so much on the latter. It's more important that they disclose that their customers have absolutely no privacy. That disclosure is a "good thing" even if the reason for said disclosure is extraordinarily disturbing. | |
| | | Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO | Re: Bound to happen You are on a the "Public Internet", just because you can get there while sitting on your sofa in your underwear doesn't mean you should assume privacy. | |
| | SaBo7Ge
join:2003-03-12
US | This is how facism takes a foothold. | |
| | | Shark_615
join:2006-01-17
Pickering, ON | Re: Bound to happen Really?
Are you saying the Jews should have read Hitler's privacy policy? | |
| | | | 
kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY
 ·Packet8
| Re: Bound to happen said by Shark_615  :Really? Are you saying the Jews should have read Hitler's privacy policy? No, he's saying this is how fascism - of which first phase we have successfully reached when our government teamed up with corporations and corporate money - takes over slowly: stripping civil rights and liberties, first via Patriot Acts then it mirrors everywhere else, down to the corporate customer policies as well. | |
| | | | | Shark_615
join:2006-01-17
Pickering, ON | Re: Bound to happen  | |
| | | | | 
guitarzan
Premium
join:2004-05-04
Skytop, PA
 ·epix
edit:
June 21st, @06:08PM
| said by kamm :said by Shark_615 :Really? Are you saying the Jews should have read Hitler's privacy policy? No, he's saying this is how fascism - of which first phase we have successfully reached when our government teamed up with corporations and corporate money - takes over slowly: stripping civil rights and liberties, first via Patriot Acts then it mirrors everywhere else, down to the corporate customer policies as well. Kamm, can you determine how far along into fascism we are? I only bolded a few for example that stand out.
A fascist government, with a right-wing capitalist bent, would accomplish the same thing. Particularly with a citizenry willing to compromise their rights for the sake of being provided "security".....
Correct.
Actually three of the several signs of any incoming fascism are 1. a continuous war (verbal or physical) against an enemy 2. more and more limiting personal freedom in return for "security" 3. close ties with the big corporations, in terms of laws (pro-corporate, anti-intividual laws in return of pro-government corporate support).
Ummm, wait a sec... don't we have all these three already? Gee...
1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.
3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people’s attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choice—relentless propaganda and disinformation—were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite “spontaneous” acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and “terrorists.” Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.
4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.
5. Rampant sexism. Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.
6. A controlled mass media. Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes’ excesses
7. Obsession with national security. Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting “national security,” and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.
8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elite’s behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the “godless.” A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.
9. Power of corporations protected. Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of “have-not” citizens
10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice
11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.
12. Obsession with crime and punishment. Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. “Normal” and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or “traitors” was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.
14. Fraudulent elections. Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.
Does any of this ring alarm bells? Of course not. After all, this is America, officially a democracy with the rule of law, a constitution, a free press, honest elections, and a well-informed public constantly being put on guard against evils. Historical comparisons like these are just exercises in verbal gymnastics. Maybe, maybe not
edited for clarity.
--
Bass....the glue of rhythm and harmony...the heartbeat of the band.! Shaking the earth with deep,sonorous vibrations.The dark ominous thunder of an approching storm. | |
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MarkBold
@stugs.com | Re: Bound to happen I guess you can just as well mark the other points bold as well!
Points 1,2,4,5 certainly.. 5 and 11 also partially... considering outsourcing and illegal aliens, 10 is also a matter of discussion | |
| | | | | aj_f
join:2004-06-05
77058-1124
| said by kamm :said by Shark_615 :Really? Are you saying the Jews should have read Hitler's privacy policy? No, he's saying this is how fascism - of which first phase we have successfully reached when our government teamed up with corporations and corporate money - takes over slowly: stripping civil rights and liberties, first via Patriot Acts then it mirrors everywhere else, down to the corporate customer policies as well. When they came for the Socialists, I did not act because I was not a Communist. And they came for the Gypsies I did not act...Peace activists...political enemies...Then, by time they came for me, there was no one left to act...
Anyone who thinks they are above the power grab going on in government right now is bound to get a surprise when it gets down to their own short-and-curleys. | |
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Netbum
join:2002-04-08
Oakley, CA
| Re: Bound to happen When they came for the Socialists, I did not act because I was not a Communist. And they came for the Gypsies I did not act...Peace activists...political enemies...Then, by time they came for me, there was no one left.
Amen Brother | |
| | 
rwhubert
Bipolar Athlon
Premium
join:2002-07-26
Atlanta, GA
| A disturbing quote, direct from the AT&T "Privacy Policy" FAQ:
YOUR TELEPHONE AND INTERNET USAGE RECORDS MAY BE PRIVATE TO YOU, BUT THESE RECORDS ARE STATISTICS THAT BELONG TO AT&T.
Can we perhaps rewrite the classic book "1984" to include this gem? Could Benito Mussolini have come up with something more chilling? I swear to god, this is pretty close to an exact quote. The Fascists are not coming to take over the USA, they are here now!
Robert in Atlanta | |
| |
sbcatt
@midco.net
| sbc and at&t what are theses computer really mean sbc stands for Scream Bitch Complain, and at&t stands for Always Track & Tell. See the way it is going now new AT&T customer of old sbc and old at&t are screaming and bitching and complaining and new at&t is Always Tracking and Telling the NSA. it's so easy no wonder way othera aren't do it oh wait they are because the nsa sayed they have to because of National Security Policy or as alot people known as the National S-H-I-T Policy. | |
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tsu
join:2001-08-17
Wheeling, IL | ... So, basically, if you value privacy at all, do not obtain service through AT&T. | |
| | 
Jigsaw
Stardust We Are
Premium
join:2000-10-21
Cleveland, OH
 ·Cox HSI
| Re: ... said by tsu :So, basically, if you value privacy at all, do not obtain service through AT&T. Bingo!They are sick...
--
»www.auralmoon.com/html/ Stimulating ears for 6 years | |
| | | 
verolom
join:2002-03-23
Eatontown, NJ | Re: ... I wonder if providing some sort of anonymous proxy service to AT&T customers will become a pretty enticing business model  | |
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tsu
join:2001-08-17
Wheeling, IL | Re: ... Further, I wonder if said anonymous proxy will be shut down for aiding and abetting "terrorists."
Remember kiddies, if the government can't see it, you must be hiding something worth looking at! | |
| | | | Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO | You are still going through their network to get to that proxy so you can still be tracked. | |
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verolom
join:2002-03-23
Eatontown, NJ | Re: ... not as easily. you can encrypt and tunnel your connection through a vpn. use a revolving key and one of those RSA tokens that at&t itself uses when establishing intranet connections from outside. | |
| | pabster
join:2001-12-09
Waterloo, IA | Unfortunately, AT&T supplies the network for a lot of other parties as well. My ISP for example uses AT&T to route a lot of its traffic. | |
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tsu
join:2001-08-17
Wheeling, IL
| Re: ... I wonder if the thru traffic is guarded by your host ISP's policies. I know I certainly have never permitted AT&T a contract, so would that mean my monitored traffic via their backbone would be, what--under their terms or my ISP's?
Hrm. I'll have to poke around that one. | |
| 
major marco
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Mission Viejo, CA
clubs: | Still Bringing Your World to the NSA This time with lawsuit proof impunity. But keep giving AT&T your business...they won't violate your rights, pinky swear promise! | |
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i5050MbSoon
Formerly TwoKDialup
Premium
join:2002-06-07
Coloma, MI
| Your World. Observed. "The changes also state AT&T will track viewing habits of Homezone and U-Verse users," Is this really necessary to catch terrorists?
--
Meet Bill and Karolyn at www.theslowskys.com | |
| | 
Grail Knight
Who Dares Wins
Premium
join:2003-05-31
Erie, PA
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Your World. Observed. No it is really necessary to cover their assets and continue to do business without the government breathing down their necks.
As for catching terrorists you will have to ask the feds.
--
Next time leave a name & we can discuss your issues. | |
| | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| said by i5050MbSoon :"The changes also state AT&T will track viewing habits of Homezone and U-Verse users," Is this really necessary to catch terrorists? ABSOLUTELY NOT! You hit the nail on the head.
Here's the biggest problem I have with it... When a major corporation writes into their privacy policy that they are going to make it easier to deliver your private habbits to the Feds, it just goes to show you there is a very thin line, or lack there of, between corporations and the government..
I wonder if this was one of AT&T's back door deals where they will give the government all the access they need in trade for video franchise. Talk about sell outs... | |
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Grail Knight
Who Dares Wins
Premium
join:2003-05-31
Erie, PA
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Your World. Observed. Forget the terrorism angle for now. It is about money, avoiding lawsuits, and having the Feds on your side.
You will see more of this happening in the coming months IMO.
--
Next time leave a name & we can discuss your issues. | |
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TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Your World. Observed. said by Grail Knight :Forget the terrorism angle for now. It is about money, avoiding lawsuits, and having the Feds on your side. You will see more of this happening in the coming months IMO. You are right. Many, if not all, ISPs will adopt similar policies in the near future. It protects them from successful lawsuits when complying with government orders. If you don't like it, they are saying sue the government and not us.
And as voters, if you don't like this, get your congresscritter to change the law.
--
--
Join Red Room Forum
BLOG tkjunkmail.blogspot.com
My Web Page | |
| | | | | grandpinaple
join:2006-01-03
New York, NY | Re: Your World. Observed. The truth hurts... | |
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tsu
join:2001-08-17
Wheeling, IL
| And as voters, if you don't like this, get your congresscritter to change the law.
And, as Congresscritters, they will promptly totally ignore the Will of the People.
'might be cynical, but that's pretty much how things go these days, regardless of who is in office. | |
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Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
Albany, NY
| Re: Your World. Observed. Not so much ignore the will of the people as redirect the attention of the people.
"Yes, this NSA spying thing is really bad an.... hey, look over there! Married gays burning the flag!!!!!"
The specific distraction will change based on the politician and his party, but the basic tactic remains the same.
--
-Jason Levine
My Gallery | Jason's Toolbox | PCQandA.com | URateit.com | |
| | | | | | | grandpinaple
join:2006-01-03
New York, NY | Re: Your World. Observed. Since, when has gay marriage been a tool of distraction. Really...
It has been terrorism for the last 5 years... | |
| | | | | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Your World. Observed. said by grandpinaple :Since, when has gay marriage been a tool of distraction. Really... It has been terrorism for the last 5 years... EXCUSE ME?!
Where have you been? It was gay marriage which gave Bush just enough to win the 2004 election. The midterms are up and now gay marriage is back in the spotlight. You have to be living in a cave with Osama to not know that gay marriage is just one of the distractions out there.
1) Abortion
2) Attack on Religion
3) Gay Marriage
4) Flag Burning
5) War on Terror
There's just a few pages out of the Karl Rove play book,... only the American people are getting it finally. | |
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kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY
·Packet8
| Re: Your World. Observed. said by fiberguy :said by grandpinaple :Since, when has gay marriage been a tool of distraction. Really... It has been terrorism for the last 5 years... EXCUSE ME?! Where have you been? It was gay marriage which gave Bush just enough to win the 2004 election. The midterms are up and now gay marriage is back in the spotlight. You have to be living in a cave with Osama to not know that gay marriage is just one of the distractions out there. 1) Abortion 2) Attack on Religion 3) Gay Marriage 4) Flag Burning 5) War on Terror There's just a few pages out of the Karl Rove play book,... only the American people are getting it finally. Are they? | |
| | | | | | | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Your World. Observed. Are they? Not really... however, to save their own butts right now, they are "appearing" to turn against their own party puppets. (ie: bush, frist, scamtorum, etc.)
It's their way of saying "oh crap! I think this is going a little too far too fast"... As for the American public? We'll see this election if they truly "got it".. | |
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major marco
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Mission Viejo, CA
clubs:
| Miserable Failure said by fiberguy :gay marriage which gave Bush just enough to win the 2004 election. Bush has never won anything in his entire, over-privileged life. The 2004 selection was given to him just like the 2000 selection and everything else daddy's money & political cronies handed over on a silver platter. And still the sheep keep hitting the snooze button on our collective Constitutional crises clock.
--
Choose Net Neutrality or Lose It
21st C TechnoBarons.
Why Care About Media?
| |
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tsu
join:2001-08-17
Wheeling, IL | Ignore? Distract? Wave their butts in the air?
Same outcome :P | |
| | | | | | markofmayhem
join:2004-04-08
Pittsburgh, PA
| I can't agree more! No matter who I put in office, who I vote for, the "fight on terrorism" is taking front stage in the excuse to provide me with less freedoms than my father, who had less freedoms than his father, so on and so forth. While I'm not wearing tinfoil, nor do I believe it has gotten to the point that violations of freedom are occuring, I do NOT like the direction my country is heading. Every year more freedoms are exchanged for more protection. I don't like it. Yes, I would rather be blown up on a bus than to have my phone conversation listed to. | |
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Jigsaw
Stardust We Are
Premium
join:2000-10-21
Cleveland, OH
·Cox HSI
| Re: Your World. Observed. said by markofmayhem :I can't agree more! No matter who I put in office, who I vote for, the "fight on terrorism" is taking front stage in the excuse to provide me with less freedoms than my father, who had less freedoms than his father, so on and so forth. While I'm not wearing tinfoil, nor do I believe it has gotten to the point that violations of freedom are occuring, I do NOT like the direction my country is heading. Every year more freedoms are exchanged for more protection. I don't like it. Yes, I would rather be blown up on a bus than to have my phone conversation listed to. Fist off They(they won't)/We/ anyone needs to get Lobbying out of the Government.IMHO the seeds of fascism have been planted(and is slowly growing) and we need to pull that out from the root.This is America Land Of the Free and home of the Brave Not America Land of the Greed and Home of the Slave...
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»www.auralmoon.com/html/ Stimulating ears for 6 years | |
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tsu
join:2001-08-17
Wheeling, IL | Re: Your World. Observed. The likelihood of Congress disposing of things like lobbying is effectively nil. They aren't going to deny themselves free trips, meals, "gifts" and whatnot. | |
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Jigsaw
Stardust We Are
Premium
join:2000-10-21
Cleveland, OH
·Cox HSI
| Re: Your World. Observed. said by tsu :The likelihood of Congress disposing of things like lobbying is effectively nil. They aren't going to deny themselves free trips, meals, "gifts" and whatnot. Then IMHO they need to go!!!!
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»www.auralmoon.com/html/ Stimulating ears for 6 years | |
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dalesplace
join:2000-09-14
Cleveland, OH
| Yes, I would rather be blown up on a bus than to have my phone conversation listed to.
or most of the other things done to "save me". Personally, I find that prospect much less frightening than the lies and insane laws our current government is spreading. | |
| | | | | TheWickerMan
join:2002-04-09
Enola, PA
| said by TK Junk Mail : And as voters, if you don't like this, get your congresscritter to change the law. Yeah, I'm sure they'll get right on that, just as soon as they're done giving themselves pay raises. | |
| | | | | Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO | TOS's and EULA's are not THE law and are not the end all to any legal battle. | |
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TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Your World. Observed. said by Skippy25 :TOS's and EULA's are not THE law and are not the end all to any legal battle. As I said, it doesn't stop them from being sued. But it does make it much less likely those suing will win. And that is the point, isn't it. Making it much more costly to sue and less likely to win means that the class action lawyers will not take the case.
--
--
Join Red Room Forum
BLOG tkjunkmail.blogspot.com
My Web Page | |
| | | | | | | Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO | Re: Your World. Observed. Until a specific TOS or EULA is upheld in a law of court then it has no more value then the piece of paper it was written on.
Besides you are giving blood suckers (lawyers) too much credit. They will do anything for a buck. | |
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avantare
Go Tribe
join:2000-02-16
Akron, OH
| said by Grail Knight :Forget the terrorism angle for now. It is about money, avoiding lawsuits, and having the Feds on your side. You will see more of this happening in the coming months IMO. You hit the nail on the head Grail Knight .
Chuck
--
Warner Music Group CEO Edgar Bronfman, Jr. "We're not greedy. We just want more money." | |
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See 10 replies to this post | |
| | | 
BloodRoses
The Purple Faerie
Premium
join:2003-03-17
New York, NY
·Cox HSI
| said by Grail Knight :You will see more of this happening in the coming months IMO. As times goes on, the more and more it seems like we're living in China.
--
Cheers,
Stephanie - www.GlitterFaerie.com | |
| | | | | darkdays
join:2006-04-18 | Re: Your World. Observed. No china has faster internet | |
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i5050MbSoon
Formerly TwoKDialup
Premium
join:2002-06-07
Coloma, MI
| said by Grail Knight :... You will see more of this happening in the coming months IMO.
Maybe they should put a hidden camera and a microphone in each customer's digital box so they can make sure Osama isn't hangin' out in your living room. 
--
Meet Bill and Karolyn at www.theslowskys.com | |
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Grail Knight
Who Dares Wins
Premium
join:2003-05-31
Erie, PA
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Your World. Observed. How do you know hey have not already placed a camera and mic. in them and were just waiting for the word to activate?
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Next time leave a name & we can discuss your issues. | |
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Jigsaw
Stardust We Are
Premium
join:2000-10-21
Cleveland, OH
·Cox HSI
| Re: Your World. Observed. said by Grail Knight :How do you know hey have not already placed a camera and mic. in them and were just waiting for the word to activate? Execute order 66!!!
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»www.auralmoon.com/html/ Stimulating ears for 6 years | |
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Grail Knight
Who Dares Wins
Premium
join:2003-05-31
Erie, PA | Re: Your World. Observed. Done! | |
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AT&T Revamps Privacy Policy