Seize the Incumbent NetworksAnd upgrade them for the public good? ( old news - 09:09AM Monday Jun 19 2006) tags: legal · competition · net-neutralityA defense of the bell plan to charge QoS tariffs (violating net-neutrality) is frequently that the bells need a guarantee of a profitable business model if they're to invest in network upgrades. The Weekly Standard (via Techdirt doesn't buy it: "Forget the argument that telcos need to be guaranteed a return on investment or they won't upgrade our bandwidth. No one guarantees Intel a return before they spend billions in R&D on their next Pentium chip to beat their competitors at AMD. No one guarantees Cisco a return on their investment before they deploy their next router to beat Juniper. In real, competitive markets, the market provides access to capital." The article's solution is sure to rattle any free-market or telco fan's cage: "Here's an idea: Start screaming like a madman and using four letter words--like K-E-L-O. And fancier words like "eminent domain." I know, I know. This sounds wrong. These are privately owned wires hanging on poles. But so what? The government-mandated owners have been neglecting them for years--we are left with slums in need of redevelopment. Horse-drawn trolleys ruled cities, too, but had to be destroyed to make way for progress. How do we rip the telco's trolley tracks out and enable something modern and real competition? - - Maybe the incumbent network providers--the Verizons, Comcasts, AT&Ts--can be made to compete; threatening to seize their stagnating networks via eminent domain is just one creative idea to get them to do this." Related:- Return Of The Net Neutrality Sock Puppets
- 5 Signs Our Broadband Plan May Already Be In Trouble
- Real Consumer Group Takes Aim At Fake Ones
- Comcast 'Honors' FCC Authority On Neutrality
- Wireless Carriers Oppose Neutrality Rules
- What Network Neutrality Is REALLY About
- AT&T: Google Is The Enemy Of Nuns
- Retired Telco Exec Sent Sloppy AT&T Lobbying Letter
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  pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD | Bad Idea in So Many Ways Why do people think this is a good idea? There are just so many examples of government at all levels screwing things up so badly. Do you really want those same governments running these networks? -- Tancredo 2008! | |
|  |   ieolus Support The Clecs
join:2001-06-19 Duluth, GA 2 edits | Exactly what is needed. Yes. | |
|  |  |   JamesPC
join:2005-10-12 Orange, CA | Re: Exactly what is needed. I agree, you think a fortune 500 company is bad at running things. Wait until a government intity runs the show into the ground. "DMV"....the list goes on. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   tsu9
join:2001-08-17 Wheeling, IL | Re: Bad Idea in So Many Ways Allow me to paraphrase:
"There are just so many examples of [companies] at all levels screwing things up so badly. Do you really want those same [companies] running these networks?"
It's bad, either way. | |
|  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Bad Idea in So Many Ways said by tsu9 :"There are just so many examples of [companies] at all levels screwing things up so badly. Do you really want those same [companies] running these networks?" It's bad, either way. No, it isn't. When a government screws up, the citizens, whether they like it or not, are required to clean up the mess, which usually requires higher taxes for that purpose, and even that operation is just as inefficient and wasteful as the original screwup was to begin with.
At least when a private company screws up, the only people affected are investors who willingly chose to accept the risk. Other people are not affected. -- Tancredo 2008! | |
|  |  |  |   tsu9
join:2001-08-17 Wheeling, IL
| Re: Bad Idea in So Many Ways Given that most areas have few choices for this sort of thing, when the privately held companies screw up, the citizens feel it as well. It doesn't come as taxes, but it definately is handed down.
Incidentally, I was more referring to the state of the network, rather than the state of one's wallet. | |
|  |  |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
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1 edit | Re: Bad Idea in So Many Ways said by tsu9 :Given that most areas have few choices for this sort of thing, when the privately held companies screw up, the citizens feel it as well. People who choose to live in areas where broadband is sparse and the complain about the lack of broadband have other issues. If its that important to someone, then they should move to where the broadband is.
said by tsu9 :Incidentally, I was more referring to the state of the network, rather than the state of one's wallet. Well, let's take a look at how well most governments run the following:
•Public Schools - Why is it that we spend more and more and more on K12 education, more than any other civilization on earth and many rural and urban school systems still don't make the grade? •Amtrak - Why does Congress think that maintaining a railroad which runs out to places where few people live will run at a profit? •Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid - These programs are rife with so much waste and fraud already... Do you really think with the way the government spends money that you will ever see these benefits when you retire? •Border Security - Yeah, right! •Roads - We have a major highway network that is in need of upgrades and the bill we get out of Congress builds a bridge to nowhere in Alaska? WTF? •Disaster Relief - FEMA, anyone?
With this in mind, I wouldn't even trust these guys with a wire crimper and a CAT-5e cable, much less running the Internet. -- Tancredo 2008! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   tsu9
join:2001-08-17 Wheeling, IL | Re: Bad Idea in So Many Ways Like I said, neither choice is particularly savory. The current state is vastly preferrable to either getting their grubby little mitts on it. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   quetwo That VoIP Guy Premium join:2004-09-04 East Lansing, MI
| As it stands for me, I don't live out in the boon-docs. In face, I live in a fairly large city, this state's capitol if you will. When I moved in, I was told broadband was an option -- but what they didn't say was that broadband over 1MB was not available (nor does it seem that it ever will be). Comcast isn't out on my block (a big surprise too), so I must rely on the aging lead and copper wires in the air for my broadband.
As far as Amtrak -- Amtrak wouldn't serve anybody except for the biggest cities, if they weren't forced to. How would those without a car get from point a to point b? Greyhound would be a similar scenario.
Roads -- Thank the politicians for the way bills get voted on. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   scrummie02 Bentley
join:2004-04-16 Arlington, VA
| what is ironic is the same people tat are screaming for the government to get involved in regulating the internet or take control of it are the same folks that scream when the very same government wants to wire-tap to catch terrorist thugs. If they seize control or create regulations they will have even more power to do as they wish and breach our "1st and 4th amendment rights".
I'd prefer the government stay out of this all together. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   tsu9
join:2001-08-17 Wheeling, IL | Re: Bad Idea in So Many Ways There is a difference between ham-fisting and making sure the boys in the sandlot play nice. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   scrummie02 Bentley
join:2004-04-16 Arlington, VA
| Re: Bad Idea in So Many Ways not really. If they mandate how the internet will be run or seize control...it wouldn't just stop there.
I don't trust the politicians more than I trust a used car salesman.
I don't trust the telco's motives either...but at least they can be punished. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   wifi4milez Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07 New York, NY
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| Re: Bad Idea in So Many Ways said by scrummie02 :not really. If they mandate how the internet will be run or seize control...it wouldn't just stop there. I don't trust the politicians more than I trust a used car salesman. I don't trust the telco's motives either...but at least they can be punished. I think that many of the other DSLR readers should review what you posted, then review it again for clarity. Everyday people on this site (no need to name names ) whine and complain about "big brother", our "oppressive police state", and how the government is invading all aspects of our lives. Shockingly (or maybe not), these SAME people are the ones who all are in support of that same government, taking control of the nations telecommunications network! So lets see if I got this right, you hate the government so much that you want them to seize private assets and take control of the countries communications infrastructure? Hmmmmmm, sounds like some people are a bit schizophrenic and delusional. You can have it both ways, take a side and stick with it for everyone else's sake. -- сумасшедшая обезьяна! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26 North Andover, MA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Bad Idea in So Many Ways Nationalizing a public asset that can't be duplicated and is being abused for guaranteed (monopoly) profits, is far far far, different from violating the constitutional rights of all citizens using "teh terror". Take a look at some old Sen. McCarthy footage if you want to understand. Service providers and pipeline owners SHOULD be separate, it's the only way to have a free-market. All service providers would pay the same maintenance fee some of which would provide for upgrades.
The problem is the vertical integration will destroy any innovation that is beneficial for consumers. (unless cost cutting is passed through, no history of that) See the oil industry for a great example. You may also want to notice that the refining margins on a barrel of gasoline in the US is 20X that in Europe (where the cost of gas is high because of taxes). In Asia they actually LOSE money on refined product right now, so it's harder to make a comparison. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   tsu9
join:2001-08-17 Wheeling, IL
1 edit | I agree that the Government is not to be trusted fully. However, the best way I see this proceeding is them simply stating "hands off!" to the ISPs, regarding their desire to control the 'net.
In fact, that's probably the only way that will be stopped. After all, companies punished are done so via the government, and that's precisely the sort of slap on the wrist that is required here. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   N3OGH Bear patrol must be working like a charm Premium join:2003-11-11 Philly burbs
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| said by scrummie02 :not really. If they mandate how the internet will be run or seize control...it wouldn't just stop there. I don't trust the politicians more than I trust a used car salesman. I don't trust the telco's motives either...but at least they can be punished. HEY HEY HEY, go easy on the used car salesmen..... | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   BF69
join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN
| said by pnh102 :People who choose to live in areas where broadband is sparse and the complain about the lack of broadband have other issues. If its that important to someone, then they should move to where the broadband is. That's is stupid. "Ok honey I'm quiting my good paying job moving the kids out of this good school district and away from their friends so we can get better internet."
That's ok availabilty of broadband will be as important factor in house vaulues in the coming years. Would a house in area that use well water and septic tanks worth more than those that it would than if it had access to water lines and sewage systems? Would a house that had no access to phone lines be worth as much than if it did? Would a house that didn't have access to cable be worth as much than it it did?
Local governments will not like geting less property taxes because of lower porterty values and seeing busines leave or not come in because the local ISP only wants to offer 3 Mbps servie and the next town over is getting 20 Mbps. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Bad Idea in So Many Ways said by BF69 :That's is stupid. "Ok honey I'm quiting my good paying job moving the kids out of this good school district and away from their friends so we can get better internet." Well if you are like most people, you have have to decide what priorities are critical and which aren't. If someone thinks broadband is more important than anything else, then they would be stupid if they chose to live in a place where they could not get it. On the other hand, most people are not like that, and the situation for rural broadband isn't as bad as it used to be either. -- Tancredo 2008! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  RadioDoc 58ef2c0 Premium,ExMod 2000-03 join:2000-05-11
·AT&T Midwest
| Why should anyone give a shit about the value of a house built in the middle of nowhere? If you want electricity, water, sewer, cable TV, "broadband" via fiber, etc., then pay for it yourself. Quit expecting the rest of us to subsidize your McMansion rape of undeveloped land. -- Toolmaster of La Grange. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   Fatal Vector
join:2005-11-26
1 edit | "Public Schools - Why is it that we spend more and more and more on K12 education, more than any other civilization on earth and many rural and urban school systems still don't make the grade?"
This is entirely the fault of the parents who seem to think that schools are nannys so they can run around and do what they plaese, while not allowing the nanny to impose discipline and constantly whining about everything.
"Amtrak - Why does Congress think that maintaining a railroad which runs out to places where few people live will run at a profit?"
They dont think it will run at a profit. That's not why they subsidize it. They do so because it is a way of moving freight and troops, etc in an emergency. With the nut terrorists bound to have nukes in the future, chances are the railroads will be put to good use.
"Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid - These programs are rife with so much waste and fraud already... Do you really think with the way the government spends money that you will ever see these benefits when you retire?"
Rife with so much waste? Really... There are allways a few who will take advantage (such as those who use bit torrent for warez and those who want to run servers on their residential connection) if you let them. But the number of people utilizing many of these services, like Medicaid, has been dropping for years. An example is food stamps. They have been advertising for people to sign up for food stamps because not enough (that's right) people have been using them.
And, you'll find that if you are a male, you will be ineligable for medicaid or welfare, unless you are dying or totally disabled and drooling. As far as social security, most people have been paying FICA tax all their lives and are damn well entitled to a return on their lifes investment.
"Border Security - Yeah, right!"
An issue that has boiled over and WILL be addressed, especially considering how the attitude of the mexicans that they have been here paying taxes and we damn well better give them citizenship sticks in the craws of most americans, who ask: WHAT part of the word ILLEGAL dont you understand?
"Roads - We have a major highway network that is in need of upgrades and the bill we get out of Congress builds a bridge to nowhere in Alaska? WTF?"
Well, congress pays for the US highways and Interstate maintenance. The states and localities pay for the rest, from gas taxes, Federal and state (average: about 40 cents on every gallon combined).
Actually, the interstates and US highways I've been on all over the country have been in generally very good shape and that includes the ones here in the metro that they have spent hundreds of millions on over the past 3 years.
"Disaster Relief - FEMA, anyone?"
Of course, what they fail to mention is that FEMA was made part of Homeland Security and, that when that happened, it had it's balls cut off as an agency (it used to be independent and MUCH more effective, as it's previous record attested). It had to go through more layers of management to do anything and so it's response was strangled.
If you want to blame someone, follow the money instead of blaming the patsy. If you follow the money and what happened when homeland security was formed you will find factual truth. Untill then, you really shouldn't babble untill you know what you are talking about instead of regurgitating media/party talking points. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   pnh102 Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty Premium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD
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| Re: Bad Idea in So Many Ways said by Fatal Vector :This is entirely the fault of the parents who seem to think that schools are nannys so they can run around and do what they plaese, while not allowing the nanny to impose discipline and constantly whining about everything. While that is true at some schools, you also have inner city systems in which teachers won't even send their own kids because they are that bad. Just about every inner city school system is a joke for the kids victims involved. Is it because all of those parents want to let their kids run around as they please? Perhaps if there was a real choice in schools, then there might be some more discipline as well.
said by Fatal Vector :They dont think it will run at a profit. That's not why they subsidize it. Entirely wrong. Amtrak was started in 1972 as Congress nationalized bankrupt passenger railroad companies. Every administration since then has made it a point to try to make it profitable since. However, since private industry couldn't do it, it is even less likely that the government will.
said by Fatal Vector :Rife with so much waste? ... But the number of people utilizing many of these services, like Medicaid, has been dropping for years. An example is food stamps. They have been advertising for people to sign up for food stamps because not enough (that's right) prople have been using them. Wrong again. The new drug benefit for Medicare and Medicaid will more than make up new spending that was offset by a lack of enrollees. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and other wealth transfers make up well over 50% of federal spending, and these are increasing each year as the number of retirees increases.
said by Fatal Vector :And, you'll find that if you are a male, you will be ineligable for medicaid or welfare, unless you are dying or totally disabled and drooling. That's a given.
said by Fatal Vector :As far as social security, most people have been paying FICA tax all their lives and are damn well entitled to a return on their lifes investment. They may be entitled, but I seriously doubt that the workers of tomorrow will be willing to pay 90% or more of their income in taxes to fund these programs. The bottom line is that these programs are running out of money fast and they will be insolvent sooner than we think. However, the government refuses to impose reasonable limitations on who can get these programs.
said by Fatal Vector :An issue that has boiled over and WILL be addressed, esp-ecially considering how the attitude of the mexicans that they have been here paying taxes and we damn well better give them citizenship sticks in the craws of most americans who ask: WHAT part of the word ILLEAL dont you understand? This brings me back to my last point about how Congress' "solution" to a problem is only an even worse exacerbation of that problem. Instead of doing the correct thing and rebuke the president for not enforcing immigration law, Congress will simply grant citizenship to all illegal aliens. Nice.
said by Fatal Vector :Actually, the interstates and US highways I've been on all over the country have been in generally very good shape and that includes the ones here in the metro that they have spent hundreds of millions on over the past 3 years. While I will agree that most place have been improving road quality, we still have a severe shortage of upgrades in urban areas which need them the most. I am not talking about quality of the physical pavement, I am talking about building new highways where they are needed and widening / expanding existing ones.
said by Fatal Vector :Of course, what they fail to mention is that FEMA was made part of Homeland Security and that when that happened, it had it's balls cut off as an agency (it used to be independent and MUCH more effective, as it's previous record attested). It had to go through more layers of management to do anything and so it's response was strangled. Go take a look at FEMA's track record in the 1980s and 1990s, it has NEVER responded well to a disaster. So much so that states like Florida make up their own disaster response plans. And as you mentioned earlier about people being entitled to good government services because they paid for them, then it technically shouldn't matter which agency FEMA reports to now.
said by Fatal Vector :If you want to blame someone, follow the money instead of blaming the patsy. If you follow the money and what happened when homeland security was formed you will find factual truth. Well, you are correct in the sense that certain parts of the government deserve more blame than others, but you also make my point by illustrating that government bureaucracy is so inefficient and inept that it cannot possibly be entrusted with something as important as the Internet. -- Tancredo 2008! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   jslik That just happened Premium join:2006-03-17 clubs:
| Re: Bad Idea in So Many Ways said by pnh102 : Amtrak was started in 1972 as Congress nationalized bankrupt passenger railroad companies. Every administration since then has made it a point to try to make it profitable since. However, since private industry couldn't do it, it is even less likely that the government will. Not to belabor this point, but a how much has government subsidized the airline/airport industry? Interstates? Amtrak's bit is chump change. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26 North Andover, MA
·Verizon FIOS
| No matter how bad this government is.. I still trust them more than the cable co's/telco's. Especially when it comes to doing something right. Corporate America is just as much as a nightmare.
School System - Run by local governments. Some are great, some are crap. What can you do..
Amtrak - A great example of private industry dumping a public infrastructure after they've milked it for all its worth. (See our phone system 10-20 years from now.)
Medicare/Medicaid - Corporate welfare project, although it does do quite a bit of good. Right now it's acting as a trust fund for drug companies.. but that could change.
Social Security - Will go bankrupt because there are too many baby boomers. There will only be 5 paying into the system for every 1 receiving benefits. The people who run corporate America are the ones pushing the government to make sure they also receive a SS check while they spend their $100 million pensions. Payments will be FAR less than 90% of your income however. More like raised to 15%, which would still suck.
Immigration - There wouldn't be 12m illegals here if corp America didn't employ them. But yeah, we should trust them and blame the govt.
Roads - Mostly paid by state and local govt's. The National highway system is definitely a success for the fed govt.
FEMA - I've only read negative press, never really heard of them before that, so I have no input.
Personally I don't care if the government or a private company owns the pipelines, BUT the owners shouldn't be allowed to provide service. Otherwise an efficient market can't exist. AT&T/Verizon should have to choose which business they want to be in. If they want to be a service provider that cripples 3rd party content on a neutral pipeline, we'll see how long they last.
Frankly any company that demands a guaranteed profit based on assets that were (by those same past guaranteed profits) given to them, needs to be put down. Their reality has been distorted by their arrogance. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  RadioDoc 58ef2c0 Premium,ExMod 2000-03 join:2000-05-11
·AT&T Midwest
| Re: Bad Idea in So Many Ways said by Ahrenl :No matter how bad this government is.. I still trust them more than the cable co's/telco's. Especially when it comes to doing something right. Corporate America is just as much as a nightmare. This government is controlled by Corporate America. As pointed out above, at least with private operators there is a means to redress bad acts. If the government is in control, you have zero recourse.
All of your government controlled examples above are "paid" by taxpayers (that's us if you forgot) who have no input as to where that money goes.
You might want to put aside your socialist sunglasses and take a look at what you posted with a clear head. -- Toolmaster of La Grange. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   ieolus Support The Clecs
join:2001-06-19 Duluth, GA
| Re: Bad Idea in So Many Ways said by RadioDoc :said by Ahrenl :No matter how bad this government is.. I still trust them more than the cable co's/telco's. Especially when it comes to doing something right. Corporate America is just as much as a nightmare. This government is controlled by Corporate America. As pointed out above, at least with private operators there is a means to redress bad acts. If the government is in control, you have zero recourse. All of your government controlled examples above are "paid" by taxpayers (that's us if you forgot) who have no input as to where that money goes. You might want to put aside your socialist sunglasses and take a look at what you posted with a clear head. Am I nuts or do we not live in a democracy where we can vote OUT the politicians that are bought and paid-for by Corporate America? That is how you redress bad acts of the government. There is absolutely NO way to redress bad acts from a corporation when the government is pro-corporate and anti-consumer. You know this right? -- "Speak for yourself "Chadmaster" - lesopp | |
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·AT&T Midwest
| Re: Bad Idea in So Many Ways Since you offered multiple choice, I'll pick "you're nuts".
If your government steamrolls you and refuses redress, you get nothing. If a corporate entity does, you can sue. Try suing the government.
If a corporation breaks the law, enforcement action can and sometimes does succeed in punishing those involved. If your government breaks the law, it just changes the law.
You contradict yourself by stating that voting out politicos who "are bought and paid-for by Corporate America" is your means of redress against the state, then state the opposite by implying that the same government protects the corporation. How come you can't vote those protectors out as well?
Get in a property dispute with your local municipality, prosecute it to it's conclusion, and then come back to report where you were forced to move to, because you surely will not prevail. -- Toolmaster of La Grange. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   BF69
join:2004-07-28 Camden, TN
| said by Ahrenl :Social Security - Will go bankrupt because there are too many baby boomers. There will only be 5 paying into the system for every 1 receiving benefits. The people who run corporate America are the ones pushing the government to make sure they also receive a SS check while they spend their $100 million pensions. Payments will be FAR less than 90% of your income however. More like raised to 15%, which would still suck. Actually right now there are only 3 workers for every 1 person getting a SS check. In the near future there will be only 2. Only way you correct this is (A) Cutting benfits. which the AARP won't let happen (B)Raise the retirment age. Once again AARP won't let that happen.(C) raise the FICA tax on workers. AARP doesn't care about younger people until they are 50. And people under 30 just don't vote. So this is the most likely thing to happen.
As you said the 7.65% in FICA taxes will most likely be 15% in 20 years. Considering that minimum wage hasn't been raised in nearly a decade and with republicans in charged not to be raised anytime soon. How are people working for $5.15 an hour going to pay 15% FICA tax and NOT have to be on some kind of welfare? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  grandpinaple
join:2006-01-03 New York, NY
| Re: Bad Idea in So Many Ways I think that is why the government is so friendly to illegals now. They presently cover 10 percent of social security's cost. None of whos benefits they reap. Think about how much more they do for the government when the government lets them in because it won't secure the border. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   PGHammer
join:2003-06-09 Accokeek, MD clubs:
·Comcast
| School Systems - In inner cities almost *all* are crap. Prime example is that of Washington, DC itself. Despite spot improvements, how many Members of Congress, who by and large *do* rent/lease housing in Washington, DC during the city's school year, which overlaps the Congressional session, actually send their kids to the city's public or charter schools? When was the last time a President of the United States sent the First Family's kids to the city's public schools? The charter schools (with some exceptions) are run better than the public schools, and even the charter schools that have had issues have not sunk as low as the corruption scandal involving - of course - the union for the city's public school teachers.
Amtrak - The core of Amtrak was the bankrupt Penn Central Corporation, the passenger operations of what later became Conrail in the Northeast Corridor (Washington, DC to Boston). Except for the New York to Washington, DC section of the Corridor, Amtrak owns no trackage (and must pay ROW fees to the freight railroads whose trackage it uses). It also must share the portion of Northeast Corridor it *does* own with those same freight railroads (primarily with CSX, the dominant freight railroad along the Corridor). Unlike Amtrak's passenger trains (which with very few exceptions are seldom at capacity), freight trains along the trackage Amtrak uses (including the Corridor) are pretty much *always* running at (or even over) capacity, and because Amtrak only owns a small percentage of trackage itself, it collects little in the way of ROW fees compared to what it must pay out (in fact, the most recent CBA for the New York to Washington, DC section of the Northeast Corridor, which, as I pointed out, Amtrak actually does own, show that *mandated* ROW rates for freight trains along the Corridor don't cover known damage to the Corridor's trackage caused by those same trains, which Amtrak, as the Corridor's owner, is bound to repair). Worse, track safety standards for passenger traffic are, of course, higher than those for freight traffic (which is one reason why passenger rail costs more than freight rail to operate); the same is, of course, mirrored in safety standard for passenger-rail consist (as opposed to freight-rail consist). Areas where freight and passenger rail are commingled (such as the Northeast Corridor) are thus in a particular ugly situation where problems with one affect safety and reliability of the other (primarily where freight traffic affects passenger traffic). And this is *outside* of more modern issues that plague commingled corridors of freight and passenger traffic, such as terrorism. Also, how many of Amtrak's non-Corridor passenger routes were foisted on them by Congressional earmarking? (I have nothing against Amtrak; in fact, I used Amtrak myself between Philadelphia, PA and Washington, DC (with SEPTA service to Paoli, PA) between 1978 and 1980. However, that was toward the end of the Golden Years that Amtrak's funding actually came closest to matching it's actual non-reimbursed expenses; that has certainly not been the case with Amtrak since. If Amtrak is going to have a mandate, then it must be *properly funded*.)
Medicare/Medicaid - The Medicare portion was part of the original Social Security system (as in Old Age and Survivors' Disability Insurance). However, in addition to the flip-siding of the in/out ratio due to lower population growth, we also saw the raiding of the input portion of the system (the OASDI Trust Fund) by Congress to fund non-OASDI programs (how much of this has been paid back by the Treasury?)
Illegal immigration - This isn't really a problem in terms of job loss for legal immigrants and citizens, but a failure to address the dual impacts of decreased natural population growth and increased standards of living among existing citizens within the US, along with the end of the *banana republic syndrome* within Central and South America at first, with the death of the syndrome spreading to the rest of the world's developing countries. As the IPC (income per citizen) grows within a nation, the natural population growth (NPG) within that country (NPG = Total Population Growth - Immigration, both legal and otherwise) will *always* drop. The United States is *not* immune. (Europe, of course, saw the problem before the United States did; however, they haven't really addressed it, either.) The greater the increase in Income Per Citizen, the greater the decrease in NPG. However, along with the decrease in NPG comes an emptying of the number of native-born citizens in the lower ends of the service industries, which are typically where the lowest wages are paid. However, while the number of natives occupying lower-level service jobs is declining, the absolute number of such jobs *hasn't* declined; if anything, the number of such jobs has actually gone up (due to increased demand as IPC increases). The result: a literal *shortfall* in the lower sectors of the service industries, where there is a shortage of legal bodies! The reduction in non-technical legal immigrant quotas (from not only the Americas, but Africa as well), and the virtual blocking of non-TZA (Trade Zone of the Americas) economic immigration has only exacerbated the steep drop in NPG, and the resultant shortage of legal sources of bodies to fill those position in the lower-wage service industries. Given an out-and-out *lack* of legally-employable bodies, where else are the service industries of the developed world left to turn but to illegal immigration? As the IPC continues to increase, and therefore, the NPG continues declining toward zero, the *not enough legal bodies* problem will only get worse. Since the only source of NPG is more babies being born, and that, for a variety of reasons, is a nonstarter in developed nations (again, it's not just the United States), the *only* way to stave off a meltdown of the service economy is more immigration, and the single greatest reason for immigration from one nation to another is an improved standard of living ("A Better Way Of Life"); hence, you roadblock economic immigration at your peril if you are a developed nation. The immigration issue is tied in to (naturally) the Social Security and Medicare/drug benefit issues (and largely for the same reasons).
Social Security *and* Pension drawers - Largely impossible, as this is prohibited by existing Federal law (the offset rule regarding private pensions *also* applies to OASDI disability payments above a certain amount); what few cases exist were those that existed prior to this rule and were *grandmothered* (most of these cases involve women; a rather disproportionate number are former Bell System telephone switchboard operators).
The Eisenhower Interstate System - What failures exist are mostly in what roads *didn't* get built (largely due to NIMBYism, such as the portions of the EIS unbuilt through Washington, DC). East of the Mississippi, over a third of the pre-1990 EIS mileage was built not only as toll roads, but built prior to the enabling legislation for the EIS itself. The EIS is paid for via fuel taxes (assessed at the Federal Level) and matched at the state level (again, by fuels' taxes, often supplemented by other types of user fees, such as tolls). The toll road is making a comeback (and not just in Virginia and Texas; South Carolina is actively considering applying tolling to all of Insterstate 95 in the Palmetto State, for the express purpose of funding improvements and repairs, and there are *no* gaps in I-95 in South Carolina), as even traditional sources of tax revenue are runniing into shortfalls.
Either/Or - The argument falls apart when looking at the current AT&T. It was SBC (a former RBOC) that acquired the post-Bell System breakup AT&T (which had also shorn itself of Lucent Technologies), which was a facilities-based long-haul voice and data-services provider (and, in some areas, a facilities-based CLEC), and it is SBC's management that drove the BellSouth acquisition. AT&T's biggest competitor in that core long-haul business (MCI) has also been acquired by an RBOC (Verizon), and wouldn't you know it that the biggest battleground between the two companies is Texas, the largest state where both companies have facilities?
Note that both AT&T and MCI were pipeline companies; neither exists as an independent company today. Both were, in fact, bought by RBOCs, which have a regulated core with a guaranteed rate of return. However, it was not until SBC's acquisition of AT&T, and the Verizon acquisition of MCI had gotten into the planning phases, that their respective facilities-based upgrades (Project: Lightspeed in the SBC territories, and FIOS in the Verizon territories) had gotten seriously underway. (Could it be that the majority shareholders in *both companies*, which by and large, are pension plans, especially the California State Personnel Retirement System (CalPERS), wanted the dual safety net of owning the pipeline *and* the regulated local monopoly before permitting the companies to issue senior debt, which is being used to finance both projects?) In short, companies demand such guarantees because their BONDHOLDERS, who hold most of the corporate senior debt, demand it via their representatives on the corporate boards. And, as I just pointed out, the holders of the senior debt of the RBOCs, and especially AT&T/SBC and Verizon, are mostly state-employee and mirror-image pension plans. The mirror-image plans, which are a combination of local-government pension plans, some private corporate plans, and even hedge funds of municipalities, largely seek to mirror CalPERS, which has the best record among the privately-managed state-government pension plans, in addition to being the largest such plan.
Owning the pipelines without providing service has been shown to be a disaster on a scale covering the entirety of the United States, as not one such company exists today. (As I pointed out, AT&T and MCI were bought by RBOCs, and Sprint is also an ILEC/CLEC in various parts of the US; even Qwest is a combination of a pipeline company and an RBOC.) Why re-create what hasn't worked? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26 North Andover, MA
·Verizon FIOS
1 edit | Re: Bad Idea in So Many Ways Neither exists as a pipeline company today because they were both bought by gigantic RBOCs w/ "a guaranteed rate of return". MCI only went bankrupt because of massive corporate fraud, before which is seemed to have NO problem raising massive amounts of debt. If upgrading was the only way these companies could increase their business, then they would have no other choice; unless they're severely mis-managed.
There has been no disaster that you speak of however, but it sure sounds nice after pontificating to that degree. The reason why it should be "re-created" is precisely because of the discussion we have to have now. It's either setup a huge government funded body to make sure these megaopolies aren't restricting the flow data for their benefit (which probably wouldn't work anyway) or we keep them separate; required for a free-market to exist that would make this type of business plan unfeasible. | |
|  |  |  |  |   JamesPC
join:2005-10-12 Orange, CA | tsu....you try too hard. Come out with your own ideas. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   tsu9
join:2001-08-17 Wheeling, IL | Re: Bad Idea in So Many Ways I was not aware the thoughts in my head were someone else's. I'll have to ask them to leave, lest I be accused of not having any ideas. | |
|  |  |  |  jimbo2150
join:2004-05-10 Youngstown, OH
| said by pnh102 :At least when a private company screws up, the only people affected are investors who willingly chose to accept the risk. Other people are not affected. Which would you rather have: a little bit higher risk of a SLIGHT increase in taxes, or have decent service & competetative business guaranteed?
When the investors end up having to pay for a screw-up, think what usually happens. The investors pay for the very LEAST that can be done then very little innovation is completed as the businesses are controlled by profit-loving investors.
When competition is not had, investors rule the day (unfortunately). At this point with internet it is getting to a point where the government will be required to step in a bit or face little innovation (and neighborhood 'cherry-picking') by the big companies.
I would also like to know... why are ATT/Verizon/Bell not competing on a consumer internet level??? -- - "Techie" Jim | |
|  |  |  |  |  See 9 replies to this post | |
 |  |  |  |  |  GhostDoggy
join:2005-05-11 Duluth, GA | Do you give your government any credit, ever? Maybe you should stick that right hand out and say, "Heil Hitler!" and see if that government would do you better.  | |
|  |  |  See 10 replies to this post | |
 |  grandpinaple
join:2006-01-03 New York, NY | If broadband is important then you will pay $300 for a T1. If you aren't rich then you probably aren't going to be living in the wilderness. If you aren't rich and are living in the wilderness I think somehow broadband is the least of your concerns. | |
|  |  |  Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26 North Andover, MA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Bad Idea in So Many Ways said by grandpinaple :If broadband is important then you will pay $300 for a T1. If you aren't rich then you probably aren't going to be living in the wilderness. If you aren't rich and are living in the wilderness I think somehow broadband is the least of your concerns. I'm not rich, don't live in the wilderness and am forced to pay $53/mo for broadband. Apparently I won't be able to use any next generation content unless it comes from Comcast in the future as well. That's okay, I've got some tin cans and some string here I can switch too.. | |
|  |  |  |  |  Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26 North Andover, MA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Bad Idea in So Many Ways Yes, it's never been grabbed from the public to then be given to private companies, all in the name of the public good, no less..
Not to mention. The whole base network WAS once publicly owned.
It's stunning how arrogant people can be sometimes. | |
|  |  |  |   NyQuil Kid 8f The Nyquil Kid
join:2001-01-06 Brick, NJ 1 edit | Re: Bad Idea in So Many Ways Better to be arrogant than ignorant....too bad for you I guess.
[8F] The NyQuil Kid | |
|  |  Skippy25
join:2000-09-13 Hazelwood, MO
| I can go on for pages as to why this is a good idea, but I will try to sum this up the best I can.
First, WE own the network. They can claim they do, as it is their money they invested and blah blah blah. However, through government subsidies in guaranteed profits, taxes, and other deals they are where they are today. Without that, they would not be here and therefore they own nothing and owe us everything. Where is the $200 billion or so that was given to them over the last 10 years to upgrade these networks? It certainly isnt in the network and they could probably build out the entire country with that. Yet they havent. So those that say we need to purchase the network from them are nuts. We own it and always will because of the past grants we have given them regardless of how many times they upgrade. They and apparently many others seem to forget we are just loaning it to them.
Secondly, service providers and the means should be separate. Owning the product and the railroad didnt work in the old days, so how is it going to work today? I will make 3 simple points in this: 1.) There is no way in the world their will be competition when every service provider is required to build their own network. We as consumers shouldnt have to have every service provider build a network to our home to get service from them. We as citizens should not have to deal with every provider trying to reach their customer by laying cable. 2.) Because of #1, these monopolies/duopolies are still going to control the network as they see beneficial to them, not the consumer. This could be extortion fees disguised as Tiers to other providers of service and high lease rates to those that want to use the lines to compete. Or simply not providing service at all but sueing anyone that tries to do it themselves. 3.) As a result of #1 and #2, nothing will ever get better. It will stay as it is, they will only service those that are profitable and will continue to try to block anyone that tries to compete with them through lawsuits, extortion fees, or other methods. Now I am not against them only servicing those that are profitable, thats the way business should be ran. However, if we as a country can service everyone well that wants and can afford service, then lets service everyone well.
Thirdly, I am all for one network. I am not for the network being owned and operated by the government though. I think the network should be owned by us and operated by 1 to 3 PRIVATE companies that are overseen by the government and fully accountable to the people. These companies are responsible for rolling out, maintaining, and upgrading the network with the lease fees they collect from service providers. Having one network would do 3 things: 1.) It will provide one connection (for a fee) to every home and every business eliminating the need for everyone that wants to provide service from having to run a cable. If you listen to the current network owners, the Googles will have to build their own networks to everyone that wants to reach their site or they will have to pay their extortion fee on top of the bandwidth fee they already pay. 2.) This in turn opens up the market for competition as it removes one of the biggest barriers to entry and it gives any business the equal opportunity to service any person or business anywhere in the country instantly and without the need to reinvest in something that is already there. 3.) Because of #2 companies will innovate to compete and will compete because they have to in order to remain relevant, not because they are forced to by the government. It will no longer be this false sense of competition that the cable and telco companies give now when they do actually overlap each other. We as consumers can choose any kind of service from any provider for any reason we want. We wont have to deal with poor customer service if we dont want to. We wont have to deal with sub par services if we dont want to. It will be our choice, not the governments and certainly not the greedy companies! | |
|  nasadude
join:2001-10-05 Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| the only way finally! someone that sees the light.
I think this is the only way the U.S. will make it back up to the top of the broadband heap in the world. If we continue to allow the telcos to control broadband deployment and improvement in the this country, we will fall further and further behind. | |
|  |   sholling Premium join:2002-02-13 Hemet, CA
| Re: the only way Actually the real answer is real competition - not the phony competition we have today. Any telecom bill should contain the following.
1) Ban further telecom mergers
2) Mandate network neutrality
3) Ban franchise requirements for voice and TV. Yes both - with AT&T and Verizon pushing out all new infrastructure it's the perfect time to end the monopoly system. -- "Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." --FREDERIC BASTIAT--
| |
|  |  |   ieolus Support The Clecs
join:2001-06-19 Duluth, GA
| Re: the only way Or... as the article says, allow everyone to compete for services on a neutral network operated by a third-party who does not provide service. There you go, perfect competition. -- "Speak for yourself "Chadmaster" - lesopp | |
|  |  |  |  Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26 North Andover, MA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: the only way said by ieolus :Or... as the article says, allow everyone to compete for services on a neutral network operated by a third-party who does not provide service. There you go, perfect competition. Yes, finally. Absolutely correct. You can't have competition with non-duplicatable assets, and guaranteed profits. They've sealed their own fates by owning, and demanded both. | |
|  |  |   jslik That just happened Premium join:2006-03-17 clubs:
| said by sholling :3) Ban franchise requirements for voice and TV. Yes both - with AT&T and Verizon pushing out all new infrastructure it's the perfect time to end the monopoly system. What monopoly system? Cities can't grant exclusive cable/video franchises RIGHT NOW, and it's been that way since 1992. | |
|  |  |  See 9 replies to this post | |
  hobgoblin Sortof Agoblin Premium join:2001-11-25 Orchard Park, NY clubs: | I have.... never read so much rubbish in my life. Do people get paid for writing that?
Hob | |
|  GhostDoggy
join:2005-05-11 Duluth, GA
| I say let the telcos have their way. If they can continue to survive with whatever cowsumers want to be with them, then so be it. It will eventually give rise to new network competition in which the QoS tariff doesn't exist, and maybe those lazy pre-slaughtered cowsumers will moo loud enough to the local politicians to change things.
Until then, its cowsumer's fault.  | |
|   anonnoa
@myvzw.com
| Let the citizens decide Every 8 years as part of a local election let the citizens decide if they are happy with the local telco. If it's yes then they get it for another 8 years. If people are not satisified use eminent domain to seize the lines and offer them to the bidder promising to provide the best improvements to the infrastructure. | |
|  |  bogey780
join:2004-03-19 Here | Re: Let the citizens decide How about every 8 years we vote on who gets to keep their property. If someone isn't keping their house in order we seie it. If they are truly our comrades they will accept this. | |
|  |  |   anonnoa
@myvzw.com | Re: Let the citizens decide No issue with that if it affects them like only having dialup does. | |
|  |  |   anonnoa
@myvzw.com
| Also .. are these line truely private ? I threw out my local telco and only have wireless both for interent and voice. But as you claim these "private" lines are still on MY property. Ok so lets start some class action suits against the telcos to start paying people like me RENT yes RENT for storing thier private lines on my PRIVATE property. | |
|  |  |  |  bogey780
join:2004-03-19 Here | Re: Let the citizens decide You shouldn't have given them right of way... it's in your deed. Check it out. | |
|  |   richardpor Fur it up
join:2003-04-19 Portland, OR | Sounds like two wolves and a lamb voting what's for dinner. | |
|   Tmayhem
@teksavvy.com | Competition drives innovation Competition drives innovation, not making profits.
It's not because the Telcos make more money that they will want to upgrade their networks. Why would they unless they have competition? Totally bogus argument. | |
|  JSRoman Premium join:2005-03-10 Callahan, FL | I guess G_Poobah got a job working..... for the Weekly Standard. Now we know why he has been MIA for so long. I was hoping Bush had shipped him to Gitmo but I guess I was wrong. -- President Hillary Clinton! Are you scared yet?
| |
|  |  Odie97
join:2006-04-19 Oak Creek, WI
| We (the consumer) already gave the Telco's $2,000 per household Everyone should take a look at this little ditty !
We are planning to give away our well documented ebook $200 Billion Broadband Scandal for free for one week, starting Tuesday, June 20th 2006
FREE COPY (PDF 1.6MB)
»www.teletruth.org/docs/BROADBANDSCANDAL.pdf | |
|  |  Cod
join:2000-07-05 Greensboro, NC
| Re: I guess G_Poobah got a job working..... said by JSRoman :for the Weekly Standard. Now we know why he has been MIA for so long. I was hoping Bush had shipped him to Gitmo but I guess I was wrong. ROFL! Sounds just like his drivel, doesn't it? | |
|  |  |  cgw123
join:2002-09-13 Moraga, CA
| this would mean In thinking about alternative models, we could make the post office the Department of Communications and let them provide the service. Or we could just turn it over to the NSA and cut out the middlemen. Both approaches seem to have certain downsides... | |
|  hoyleysox
join:2003-11-07 Long Beach, CA
·Time Warner Cable
·Cox HSI
| Eminent domain = buy the networks I don't think the government can afford to buy the networks. The law states that property owners affected by eminent domain should be paid fair market value. I wonder how they will calculate how much the networks are worth. Should they be worth the market capitalization (stock price x shares outstanding)? | |
|  |  TheGhost Premium join:2003-01-03 Lake Forest, IL clubs:
·AT&T U-Verse
·Comcast
| Re: Eminent domain = buy the networks said by hoyleysox :I don't think the government can afford to buy the networks. The law states that property owners affected by eminent domain should be paid fair market value. I wonder how they will calculate how much the networks are worth. Should they be worth the market capitalization (stock price x shares outstanding)? Ah, but the infrastructure has already been paid for many times over through guaranteed profits. "We" should already "own" it. Even the Telco's "new" infrastuctures have been built on the profits of the older networks. | |
|  |  ross
join:2000-08-16
·Digizip
| said by hoyleysox :I don't think the government can afford to buy the networks. The law states that property owners affected by eminent domain should be paid fair market value. I wonder how they will calculate how much the networks are worth. Should they be worth the market capitalization (stock price x shares outstanding)? Shouldn't pose any problems whatsoever. The IRS would simply recapture the value of all that deferred income, redundant depreciation, falsification of inventory, re-categorized and hidden income which has had no tax previously imposed, etc.. I'm thinking that the average Telco stockholder might owe the U.S. Treasury a pretty penny when the dust settled, and the assets would be worth a fortune to a foreign provider.
All things considered, we would all be better off if a foreign government was in charge of our telecommunications security, rather than the Bush regime, because we would insist on meaningful, enforcible oversight as part of any such sale. I say let's give real meaning to obtaining a warrant from the Foreign Intelligence and Security Act court, and make it a real foreign court, with all the Constitutional safeguards we used to enjoy... | |
|  |  |  Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26 North Andover, MA
·Verizon FIOS
1 edit | Re: Eminent domain = buy the networks Ummm, no.
And uhh.. the federal govt. could easily afford it.
AT&T/SBC fixed assets*: 146B - 90.5B(accum depr) = $55.5B Verizon Fixed assets*: 191B - 118B = $73B Comcast fixed assets: 31B - 12B = $19B
The federal government could afford it just fine, since they could easily justify paying book value (again*). | |
|  |  |  |  hoyleysox
join:2003-11-07 Long Beach, CA | Re: Eminent domain = buy the networks Your home is worth more than the lumber and nails that hold it together... When businesses are bought and sold, the market (which sets prices) sets based on a number of factors, including revenues and expected future revenues... | |
|  |  |  |  |  Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26 North Andover, MA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Eminent domain = buy the networks said by hoyleysox :Your home is worth more than the lumber and nails that hold it together... When businesses are bought and sold, the market (which sets prices) sets based on a number of factors, including revenues and expected future revenues... Not with imminent domain. They determine it's value, and pay you that. | |
|   vzw emp
@170.74.x.x
| In my opinion this entire debate would be unnecessary if we had true competition. right now the best you can get is a choice between cable and dsl, and they don't really compete anymore (kinda like there used to each other). look at the areas where FIOS is being introduced, look at the discounts and the speed upgrades being offered to those consumers. the key to improvement (in price and service) is competition. for years the telco's and cable companies have had a virtual lock on the market, partly because the cost of creating a network from the ground up is substantial, partly because they spend big money on lobbyists to ensure the rules are in their favor. open the market to competition and watch as the services/prices improve.
ps - see this article: »Earthlink, Covad; Keep Sharing | |
|  |  Skippy25
join:2000-09-13 Hazelwood, MO
| Re: In my opinion I believe that is the point of the argument.
1 Network that is capable of reaching all consumers that want to be reached by all providers that want to provide will bring that competition. The current territorial lock that the current network owners AND service providers have isn't going to ever see that.
If someone in NY wants phone service from some small start up company in Alaska because he heard how great their service is, then that person can get that service. | |
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