 NoOneButMe
join:2001-08-24
TX | Comtek should use the good gear come one Ham radio has been around for years dont bash them Comtek | |
|  | 
TheMadSwede
Premium
join:2001-01-30
Holland, MI
 ·Charter Pipeline
 ·AT&T Yahoo
| Re: Comtek should use the good gear said by NoOneButMe  :come one Ham radio has been around for years dont bash them Comtek Translation:
"Come on. Ham radio has been around for years. Don't bash them, Comtek."
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home | |
| | Slacker44
join:2001-05-10
Gilbert, AZ
| You are right. HAMS are ALWAYS right. All the HAMS have to do is breath and every nerd patrol geek starts to post. It's NEVER the HAMS fault. I am so sick of this crap.
I have talked about this before. This in not broadband news. I don't care what people say. | |
| | | N3EVL
join:2004-12-13
Shrewsbury, MA | Re: Comtek should use the good gear So, you agree that there is fault to be found? Can you explain your theories so that we might learn more? | |
| glidereric
join:2001-12-06
Seattle, WA
edit:
January 26th, @04:23PM
| BPL Being a consulting engineer who has worked in the field of RF communications for almost 40 years I have followed the debate about BPL.. I have advised clients not to invest in the current technologies because they cause interference to HF services.
I frankly don't understand why the power companies don't exploit their monopoly of power poles going by virtually every home with Fiber. Totally non polluting and absolutely immune to RF outside interference!
We have been sadly served by the administrators of the FCC.
Attorneys should stay in their field of expertise! | |
| | Slacker44
join:2001-05-10
Gilbert, AZ | Re: BPL You sir are incorrect. It's the FCC who won't open what will solve all these problems.
It can't be the HAMS!! OH NO! | |
| | | RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
·XMission
| Re: BPL said by Slacker44 :You are right. HAMS are ALWAYS right. All the HAMS have to do is breath and every nerd patrol geek starts to post. It's NEVER the HAMS fault. I am so sick of this crap. I have talked about this before. This in not broadband news. I don't care what people say. said by Slacker44 :You sir are incorrect. It's the FCC who won't open what will solve all these problems. It can't be the HAMS!! OH NO! Ummm....since you are the apparent expert, how is it the Ham's fault?
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
| | | | 
TScheisskopf
World News Trust
join:2005-02-13
Belvidere, NJ
 ·Sprint Broadband D..
| Re: BPL said by RayW :said by Slacker44 :You are right. HAMS are ALWAYS right. All the HAMS have to do is breath and every nerd patrol geek starts to post. It's NEVER the HAMS fault. I am so sick of this crap. I have talked about this before. This in not broadband news. I don't care what people say. said by Slacker44 :You sir are incorrect. It's the FCC who won't open what will solve all these problems. It can't be the HAMS!! OH NO! Ummm....since you are the apparent expert, how is it the Ham's fault? Do you smell astroturf? I smell astroturf. Do you smell astroturf? 
Do not, repeat, do not expect an answer. | |
| | | | | Slacker44
join:2001-05-10
Gilbert, AZ
| Re: BPL No reason for HAMS. None. N O N E.
I forgot. Disasters.
Me, being the idiot that I am, can say "Hey but in a ubah disaster there isn't any power!!"
Then mr smart HAM nerd will say "That isn't the problem. HAMS in the disaster can't contact other hams that live near the BPL's that are already in place."
.. because you know BPL is everywhere.
Nerd #1 can't contact nerd #2 and say "help me from the ubah disaster sir". I assume they can call nerd #2-1000 though. Seeing that BPL is in so few places.
So aside from the disaster card which you play everytime the "trolls" come calling, why should we care about your hobby? Technology wins. Buy a cell phone.
"cell phones won't work in an ubah disaster!"
I wasn't talking disasters that time sir. | |
| | | | | | 
rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: BPL said by Slacker44 :No reason for HAMS. None. N O N E. Let's say for a moment that your argument is valid, that ham radio has no value whatsoever. Does it make sense to ruin a wide swath of radio spectrum that has worldwide communications capabilities, and the ruin of this resource is due to a wired network that doesn't even use the wireless spectrum to provide the service?
The answer is NO. N O | |
| | | | | | | Slacker44
join:2001-05-10
Gilbert, AZ | Re: BPL That is a better argument than the disaster card. Atleast I can respect that. | |
| | | | | | | | N3EVL
join:2004-12-13
Shrewsbury, MA | Re: BPL So, now your respect has been earned, exactly what do you propose as a solution to the spectrum pollution presently taking place in the Manassas system? | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
·XMission
| said by Slacker44 :No reason for HAMS. None. N O N E ....deleted a lot of garbage. So in other words, just because you have no need of it, then it can be destroyed for other people's use. Oh, and btw, in the 1.8 to 40 MHz range that we are talking about, Hams are only using about 4 MHz of it. Also, international treaties will come into play, not only on the ham bands, but on the other bands when the sunspot cycles get back to the good propagation levels, also many public/government services (your tax dollar at work) depend on those frequencies (I use some in my work). Our local sheriff uses VHF because the trunking system and cell phones do not work in some areas.
You remind me of a lady I once heard. San Francisco, about 1980, the State of California held a public hearing on the use of pesticides (I was working for that department as an electrical engineer). This well meaning lady, perfectly serious, got up and said (slightly paraphrased after 26 years) "Why do farmers have to use pesticides to grow their food, why can't they go to the grocery store like the rest of us?".
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
| | | | | | K4GVT
join:2006-01-24
Manassas, VA
| What resolution??? The interference continues and COMTek is hiding their head in the sand hoping we'll just "go away". After years of trying to work with this Main,net junk, it's obvious this poorly designed system needs to be stopped! There are good choice's for equipment, unfortunately COMTek has not researched the availability and just jumped in to make a buck! | |
| | glidereric
join:2001-12-06
Seattle, WA
edit:
January 26th, @04:50PM
| Re: What resolution??? Frankly I've been amazed that the BPL "PUSH" has lasted as long as it has!
I've talked to a number of power company CEO's who are totally clueless to the technical problems of Broadband over Powerlines. Once I get them to talk to a number of RF EE types like myself they realize they have been duped!
I've followed a number of utilities and one I really like is Grant County PUD in Eastern Washington.. They have gone Fiber big time and look to make a lot of $$$ going forward.
Just good engineering folks!
Eric | |
| | | 
dingus_b
@swbell.ne
| Re: What resolution??? The Grant County PUD is exactly what should be implemented. This opens the door to a whole slew of options.
Curious if the there could be public funding of the implementation of a fiber optic system and then bid out the operation and upkeep of the system. Also I would be curious if this would allow multiple vendors to serve as ISP's? | |
| |
AnonName
@verizon.net | It is fricking Manassas, what the hell do you expect? Competence? It is like in fricking "Lorena Bobbit County", Virginia. What the hell do you expect? Sanity? | |
| ColateralDMG
join:2005-06-13
Mcdonough, GA
| BPL needs some work You know I'd just make a main junction near allot of power line branches a CO string the poles with fiber to the neighborhood then have a wireless setup possibly Wi-Max in nature send that signal to the homes. Then again you could have a sort of mesh network with multiple antennas on the poles and serve a mobile networking crowd. Just my two cents as to what I would enjoy seeing on my power lines. | |
| BigMac777
join:2001-07-21
Green Valley, AZ | Ham's Or the HAM operators could do like they tell their neighbors that they sometimes interfere with. Go get a better filter for your TV set. Well go get a better filter for your radio set. | |
| |
GUEST7
| Re: visit UPLC.org website they are reliable and official sponsor of BPL NATIONWIDE. | |
| | | | | plattypus1
join:2005-04-08
Riverside, CA
 ·Charter VOIP
·Charter Pipeline
| Re: Ham's The FCC Part 97 rules clearly indicate, in 47 CFR 97.307(c), that amateur stations are responsible for interference with reception of other licensed radio services. If you know of somebody who's been told to "get a better filter", please point this out. Yes, often RF filters on a TV will mitigate interference. However, if the amateur station is causing that interference he's responsible for providing those filters.
Most hams are very courteous about interference issues.
Oh, and we can't get a better filter for our radio set. When we transmit and interfere with TV, we're transmitting on a different frequency and it's a harmonic that's bleeding onto the TV set. (IE we're transmitting on 146Mhz, and the TV set operating around 50 is interfered with.) When BPL interferes with us, it's because it's using our frequencies. We can't filter out those frequencies, because those are the ones we're trying to use.
I suspect you've been treated poorly by an amateur operator in the past. I'm sorry about this, and I hope you have better experiences in the future. If you continue to experience harmful interference to licensed services, write the FCC's Amateur Enforcement Bureau at: Federal Communications Commission, Enforcement Bureau, Amateur Radio, 1270 Fairfield Road, Gettysburg, PA 17325.
Best of luck. KF6CZG | |
| |
dingus_b
@swbell.ne
| There is a common thread here:
- Manassas cuts corners, and chooses equipment that is not designed properly to limit or prevent interference.
- Your TV manufacturer cuts corners and does not include the filtering necessary for it to reject signals it's not suppose to receive (AS REQUIRED BY LAW).
Result: Users of product (us) get left holding the bag. | |
| | W1RFI
join:2003-05-12
Burlington, CT
| > Or the HAM operators could do like they tell their
> neighbors that they sometimes interfere with. Go get a
> better filter for your TV set. Well go get a better
> filter for your radio set.
This isn't directly related to BPL, because it is an unlicensed emitter of spectrum, not a licensed radio service.
The bottom line with respect to licensed services is that if they have signals outside their licensed authorization, they have to correct any inteference they cause. Licensees routinely do just that, and they do not couch their responsibilities in terms of whether their neighbors' use of television is "legitimate."
The other half of that problem, though, is is that most consumer equipment is not designed to filter out a strong, usually nearby signal.
The bootm line here is that you can only fix a problem where it is broken. As a good example or two, see:
ARRL / Consumer Electronics Association joint pamphlet:
»www.arrl.org/news/rfi/neighbors.html
FCC material on RFI to consumer equipment:
»www.arrl.org/tis/info/rfi-info-fcc.html
ARRL's information on interference:
»www.arrl.org/tis/info/rfigen.html
ARRL has written a book that help Amateurs deal with their inteference responsibilities fairly:
»www.arrl.org/catalog/6834/
ARRL has founded an EMC Committee, reporing to the ARRL Board of Directors:
»www.arrl.org/announce/reports-20···-EMC.doc
»www.arrl.org/announce/reports-20···ttee.doc
I know of no similar responsible material prepared by the BPL industry.
The advice to get a better filter for the Amateur receiver would only apply if the BPL system were also properly filters. In Manassas and other cities, they are using the Amateur bands, international shortwave braodcast bands and CB at levels that are stronger than almost all of the radio signals on that spectrum. Once created and radiated, it can't be filtered. The rules require that the unlicensed device operator correct the interference.
Ed Hare, W1RFI@arrl.org
Tel: 860-594-0318 | |
| 
MacLeech
The one and only
Premium,MVM
join:2001-07-14
SoCal
edit:
January 26th, @10:56PM
| Some BPL setups will knock out cable services... Ever think what else uses that 30-50 MHz band used by some BPL setups?
Basically, almost EVERY cable company based service that needs communication BACK to the cable company. Cable modems, cable boxes, video-on-demand services, cable VoIP, status-monitoring equipment, addressable taps, upstream sweep systems, and countless other things.
With most cable lines running on the exact same poles that the power lines run, just a few feet lower, imagine all the interference possible...
A small crack in the cable, an improperly tightened coax fitting, or a poorly shielded device connected to the cable system is the perfect site for such interference to get in. A few of those, possibly even just one, can let in enough interference to wipe out the signal from quite a few modems, phones, and/or cable boxes connected to the same upstream ports in the headend... affecting one or more nodes, blocks away from the original ingress source.
Its already a MAJOR issue for cable line techs to deal with ingress from other sources such as HAM, CB, cordless phones, radio-controlled toys, off-air broadcasters, poor home wiring, and the tons of other RF sources common today. Add to that BPL services running on unshielded powerlines lines just a few feet from cable lines and the cable line techs will have there job cut out for them, searching for ingress will become all they do for quite a while.
I feel sorry for any cable service customer in areas with such BPL setups. Its guaranteed to cause them issues with their cable services at some point.
Imaging trying to call 911, but you can't because the newly launched BPL system wiped out your cable phone service... whoops. Lawyers would have a field day with that one... lots of deep pockets (power company, cable company, equipment providers, etc.) to raid.
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For official Adelphia support, contact Adelphia. I'm just here for advice... | |
|
aonymous2
@optonline.net
| BPL is for Smart Grid- this is the main purpose Ilike to share some tidbits of this article:
"TXU and CURRENT Communications to Create Nation’s First Multipurpose Smart Grid
Broadband Over Power Line Network to Be Available to Serve Approximately Two Million Texas Homes and Businesses
DALLAS, TX and GERMANTOWN, MD (December 19, 2005) — TXU Electric Delivery, the nation’s sixth largest electric transmission and distribution company and a subsidiary of TXU Corp. and CURRENT Communications Group, LLC, the nation’s leading provider of broadband over power line (BPL) solutions, today announced an agreement to transform TXU Electric Delivery’s power distribution network into the nation’s first broadband-enabled Smart Grid.
CURRENT will design, build and operate the BPL network covering the majority of the TXU Electric Delivery service area, including approximately two million homes and businesses in the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex and other Texas communities. This modernized grid will dramatically enhance TXU Electric Delivery’s ability to deliver top-decile electric service reliability and provide the potential for additional products and services from retail electric providers that will enable businesses and consumers to manage their electricity usage and costs." | |
| |
dingus_b
@swbell.ne | Re: BPL is for Smart Grid- this is the main purpose And pray-tell why you think that cutting a pasting some press release from Current is pertinent to this discussion? | |
| KB2PSM
join:2002-08-06
Long Beach, NY
| It never ceases to... ...amaze me:
When someone like Ed Hare or RF Engineer or a handful of extremely knowledgeable, well-researched, well-educated and well-respected forum contributors repeat and share the failures and concerns of BPL, these BPL-or-nothing proponents NEVER respond with evidence or physics to disprove what is said. They just turn their baseless emotional cheeks and wait to peddle their beliefs on the next thread, and then the next thread, and so on.
Given the generous explanations of these experts and the links to various websites, tests, reports, etc. I doubt that anyone can easily find a better starting point regarding BPL on the web.
Nonetheless, the trolls return and the easily excitable continue to rant and offer emotional diatribes skewed from the technical issues against the secondary RF pollution inherent in *most* Broadband-Over-PowerLine offerings.
Rob | |
| | speedmetal
join:2006-01-11
Sherman, TX
| Re: It never ceases to... I am currently conducting my own review and analysis of BPL. I will be attending a meeting in Ca. at the end of the month with the top players in BPL development. If you have any questions concerns or input you would like to express to them please post them here and I will pass them on. Thanks! | |
| | | KB2PSM
join:2002-08-06
Long Beach, NY
| Re: It never ceases to... I expect that they know the concerns. Global BPL failures before deployment was even considered in the US laid out the groundwork for the concerns and by-products of RF pollution. It seems that short of Motorola, that the top players would rather try to win public support through savory press releases and attacking the messengers and ill-effected rather than address, mitigate or admit to the inherent flaws in most of the BPL designs. This is about developing an additional money stream for the power companies by dangling the highly desired broadband carrot over the public.
I wish you luck, but be prepared to find that the BPL providers do not act out of innocence or ignorance of the facts, but with little regard for them. I doubt that they need us to educate them on their products and their product's byproducts.
Rob
said by speedmetal :I am currently conducting my own review and analysis of BPL. I will be attending a meeting in Ca. at the end of the month with the top players in BPL development. If you have any questions concerns or input you would like to express to them please post them here and I will pass them on. Thanks! | |
| Mordhem
Home Sweet Home Maryland
join:2003-07-10
Baltimore, MD
| Innovation wile every argues its all for the good, more competition, more of a push for a better build.
its called innovation, if the interference starts to get bad they will be forced to use innovation. Every good idea starts as a stupid one, until you start adding innovation :P | |
| | N3EVL
join:2004-12-13
Shrewsbury, MA
| Re: Innovation No! Unless you can change the laws of physics, powerlines fed with RF in the HF part of the spectrum will radiate so HF implementations of BPL started as and will remain a stupid idea. The only innovation they need to do is innovate away from this lousy technology that should never have been adopted in the first place. | |
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Hams Vs. Powerline Broadband Company
