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story category I Tracked You Via Your Printer
EFF explores stealth tracking dots
(old news - 02:34PM Monday Oct 17 2005)
tags: hardware · privacy
An interesting read over at the EFF on how printers from major companies quietly encode the serial number and the manufacturing code of that printer on every document the printer produces (via P2PNet). The EFF offers a list of printers that do this, and is asking for help in testing additional printers.

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Forums » I Tracked You Via Your Printer
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blacksky

join:2003-02-08
Bonita Springs, FL

Printer

That's why I write death threats the old fashioned way...with letters cut out from mags and newspapers then paste them on a sheet of paper....

hitachi369
Embrace Your Rights
Premium
join:2001-10-03
Grand Rapids, MI
clubs:
·AT&T U-Verse

Re: Printer

That can be even more risky since they can track what letters came from where. Look at subscrips for the same people subscribing to all the mags used. BAMN they have your home address or where ever you snagged the mags from. Much easier than just having a serial # from a printer that you never registered.
--
Please view the Hitachi3694MVM page at http://mvm4.hitachi369.com

Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs:


1 edit

Re: Printer

said by hitachi369 See Profile :

That can be even more risky since they can track what letters came from where. Look at subscrips for the same people subscribing to all the mags used. BAMN they have your home address or where ever you snagged the mags from. Much easier than just having a serial # from a printer that you never registered.
Explain, how they can "track" a letter since each magazine they print uses the SAME lettering. Unless, this is some new thing I am unaware of, where I can choose my own letters?

hitachi369
Embrace Your Rights
Premium
join:2001-10-03
Grand Rapids, MI
clubs:
·AT&T U-Verse

Re: Printer

said by Cheese See Profile :

And I suppose you think they use different fonts, and everything for each customer? I highly doubt it. And anyone can buy the same magazine off the shelf.
No but each will most likely have a different back page, or a different type of paper. From there they can find out that you say used

Good Housekeeping
Playboy
TV Guide

From there they have a tangible lead on how to track you. Most criminals are stupid (they are criminals) and prolly used stuff laying around the house instead of going to 3 different stores to get 3 different mags. They subpoena the 3 magazines for there subscription base and find out whom locally has the same 3 magazine subscriptions and fits the given profile.
--
Please view the Hitachi3694MVM page at http://mvm4.hitachi369.com

geekamongus
Real Slump Quality
Premium,MVM
join:2004-07-27
Asheville, NC

Re: Printer

said by hitachi369 See Profile :

Most criminals are stupid (they are criminals)...
Only the ones that get caught!
--
Geek.
noogoo

join:2005-06-27
buy magazines from 3 different newstands or take them out of the garbage.
--
noogoo vs. the copyright law - »noogoocopy.blogspot.com/
AquaBlaze
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Encino, CA

said by hitachi369 See Profile :

They subpoena the 3 magazines for there subscription base and find out whom locally has the same 3 magazine subscriptions and fits the given profile.
That's retarded. True, it's probably more likely they'd have those subscriptions, but there's still a chance out there that they might've picked them off the newstands.

Until you can identify a particular magazine (not distribution line, I mean the magazine print #), looking things up this way wouldn't be all that reliable.

Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs:

Re: Printer

said by AquaBlaze See Profile :

said by hitachi369 See Profile :

They subpoena the 3 magazines for there subscription base and find out whom locally has the same 3 magazine subscriptions and fits the given profile.
That's retarded. True, it's probably more likely they'd have those subscriptions, but there's still a chance out there that they might've picked them off the newstands.

Until you can identify a particular magazine (not distribution line, I mean the magazine print #), looking things up this way wouldn't be all that reliable.
This is what I mean, I don't think there is any easy way to track what magazine a letter came from.

Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs:

said by hitachi369 See Profile :

said by Cheese See Profile :

And I suppose you think they use different fonts, and everything for each customer? I highly doubt it. And anyone can buy the same magazine off the shelf.
No but each will most likely have a different back page, or a different type of paper. From there they can find out that you say used

Good Housekeeping
Playboy
TV Guide

From there they have a tangible lead on how to track you. Most criminals are stupid (they are criminals) and prolly used stuff laying around the house instead of going to 3 different stores to get 3 different mags. They subpoena the 3 magazines for there subscription base and find out whom locally has the same 3 magazine subscriptions and fits the given profile.
Now, I don't know how true it is that they use different paper, considering it's a series of machines that do the printing it would seem highly doubtful they use different paper, unless someone wants to correct me, I don't see that as feasible.

And as for CSI, yes, I have watched it, in fact, got the better half of me hooked on shows like that. She records them all, law and order, threshold, and so forth, and thank god for DVR.

Hall
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-28
Dayton, OH
Don't you ever watch CSI ??

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
Exactly, newspaper letter collage ransom note creation is a truly lost art.

Grail Knight
Who Dares Wins
Premium
join:2003-05-31
Erie, PA
·Verizon Online DSL


1 edit

Re: Printer

Not a lost art at all they simply work in Hollywood or for the producers of cheesy Crime Dramas.

Edit* No to Not.
--
Fx Official Aviary v1.0.7 (20051017)__Tb Official Aviary v1.0.7 (20051016)

Logan 5
A Sense Of Loss On Friday's
Premium,MVM
join:2001-05-25
The WasteLAN
·Pacific Bell - SBC

Click for full size
said by Karl Bode See Profile :

newspaper letter collage ransom note creation is a truly lost art.
Indeed.....

N3OGH
Bear patrol must be working like a charm
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs

Re: Printer

LOL

Wish I had that much free time...

R4M0N
Brazilian Soccer Ownz Joo

join:2000-10-04
Glen Allen, VA

Re: Printer

It doesn't take that long to find that font on the net...

LilYoda
Feline with squirel personality disorder
Premium
join:2004-09-02
Mountains



OMG funniest post I read in a LONG time!

/bow
the niTz
Premium
join:2004-07-05
Sahuarita, AZ
LMAO that was great but u forgot the soda

KAD Imaging
Just Shoot It
Premium
join:2002-09-21
Hialeah, FL
LMFAO!!! That was awesome!!

"We want 2 Taco Bell Southwestern Gorditas and a Chalupa"

:D:D:D:D:D
dibbb

join:2003-09-19
Well it looks like if you want to send a fancy colorful death threat you can do it from any of the HP color lasers.

I prefer my death threats to be anon from Blue Mountain.
Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

thats why you buy them from the supermarket and not use ones you sub to. pay in cash and dont use the savings card and yoru set. oh also make sure to wear rubber gloves while doing it because i saw this thing on CSI that they use crazyglue fumes in a box and it makes prints come out on almost anything.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports

Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs:

Re: Printer

said by Kearnstd See Profile :

thats why you buy them from the supermarket and not use ones you sub to. pay in cash and dont use the savings card and yoru set. oh also make sure to wear rubber gloves while doing it because i saw this thing on CSI that they use crazyglue fumes in a box and it makes prints come out on almost anything.
CSI is cool, yes, but to believe everything they do, don't. There was an article on this where some cases have been hung because the juries didn't have the evidence and they thought shows like this were real and wanted the proof right there, we know this doesn't happen this way, or at least some of us do.
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH

Re: Printer

one thing i have seen on tv like that is using transparent tape. You can really gather finger prints off items that were touched.

Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs:

Re: Printer

said by hottboiinnc See Profile :

one thing i have seen on tv like that is using transparent tape. You can really gather finger prints off items that were touched.
Yes, they do do somethings that are applied to real life, but a majority of it I am skeptical of, like some of the stuff they do with computers. Some of it just seems a bit, far fetched to me.
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH

Re: Printer

yah, i've started noticing it on Law & Order series when i sit and really really watch it.

Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs:

Re: Printer

said by hottboiinnc See Profile :

yah, i've started noticing it on Law & Order series when i sit and really really watch it.
And that's a great show, Criminal Intent and SVU are the best of the L&O series.
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH

Re: Printer

SVU is my favorite. a few of the guys that actually are on SVU are from the old HBO series OZ.

Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs:

Re: Printer

said by hottboiinnc See Profile :

SVU is my favorite. a few of the guys that actually are on SVU are from the old HBO series OZ.
Yep, Chris Meloni, played a bad guy on oz, then plays a cop on SVU. How ironic eh.
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH

Re: Printer

a couple others as well. But i'm not sure of their names on SVU. I know the one guy is Vern on OZ is a shrink and Wong plays on there as well.

So does the guy that had the mentally challenged brother.

Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs:

Re: Printer

Yea, I think Wong plays a priest on Oz and he plays a fbi shrink on SVU.
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH

Re: Printer

yep that's right.

just like Vern. plays a bad guy then works for the Police as a shrink too.

Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs:

Re: Printer

And Mariska Hargitay, man, she's the one reason I do watch SVU.
hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH

Re: Printer

LOL

Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs:

Re: Printer

:D:D;)
jester121

join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL
Hey, they stole that from Eddie Murphy in Beverly Hills Cop. The first one, I think.

a

@qwest.net
don't 4get 2 put on the surgical gloves, u know, finger prints...if u r gonna do something wrong, do it right & don't get caught...

woody7
Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA

hmmm..........

who cares.....and besides why are we just hearing about it now?
--
BlooMe

See 12 replies to this post

Jerm

join:2000-04-10
Richland, WA

Isn't it still easier...

My vote still goes for a stolen wireless signal - especially when the router is 100% default settings and you can reset it after-the-fact to hide that you were even there...

Step 1: Change Mac Address
Step 2: Connect to unsecured wifi
Step 3: Use non-IE browser to register free email address
Step 4: Send bomb threat, etc
Step 5: ?
joebear29

join:2003-07-20
Alabaster, AL

Re: Isn't it still easier...

said by Jerm See Profile :

My vote still goes for a stolen wireless signal - especially when the router is 100% default settings and you can reset it after-the-fact to hide that you were even there...

Step 1: Change Mac Address
Step 2: Connect to unsecured wifi
Step 3: Use non-IE browser to register free email address
Step 4: Send bomb threat, etc
Step 5: ?
Step 6: Profit

LilYoda
Feline with squirel personality disorder
Premium
join:2004-09-02
Mountains

Re: Isn't it still easier...

Quit stealing my underpants!!!
lemonade

join:2003-12-13
Los Angeles, CA

sneaky

sneaky manufacturer...

StraitShoot
Who Loves Ya Baby? - Theo Kojak
Premium
join:2003-02-08
Clinton, MA

Re: sneaky

Typewriters, anyone?

Where can you get one of those now?

JPuppy
Java Heathen
Premium
join:2002-11-24
Honesdale, PA
clubs:

Re: sneaky

Typewriters are generally even worse, since each one has a unique signature.
--
BBR Alliance Militia: Vonhammer

woody7
Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA
Believe it or not I have students ask "what is a typewriter"?:(
--
BlooMe
Drake34

join:2005-09-24
Niceville, FL

...

This still won't stop the batch of kids that get busted every year trying to print their own money every year from doing it. I find it funny.

See 8 replies to this post
d4man

join:2001-08-24
Youngstown, PA

It's my *personal* opinion that this story is just the tip of the iceberg. The possibilities are endless. Imagine cell phones that secretly archive all your incoming and outgoing text messages. Your ON STAR in your GM vehicle archives everywhere you've ever gone and records your conversations. Web cams that say they are turned off, but secretly record all the time. Your telephone data system at your work archiving every phone call. Maybe every pay phone has a secret voice recorder in it? The point is, unless manufactures release this information (which they don't), no one *ever* knows what is really going on. Even in Windows, unless you where able to break down the code, you don't know what Windows (or M$) is doing....

Wills

join:2001-01-03
Port Charlotte, FL

Re: ...

Your hatter called. He said tin foil is $5 extra.
d4man

join:2001-08-24
Youngstown, PA

Re: ...

Haha, I knew some idiot would come along and say that...Just read the topic with an open mind....

ssj4android
Redefining Reality

join:2002-04-14
Wyoming, MI
It is why we need hackers.

Anonymous_
Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1
clubs:
well i do but i do not use it and is not installed
Mechano

join:2004-05-30
Antarctica
Still can't find Ossama !
averagedude

join:2002-01-30
Mesa, AZ

1 edit

-

Which begs the question - Does our government really want to find Ossama?

(sarcasm)
jp10558
Premium
join:2005-06-24
Willseyville, NY

Re: -

Well, it raises the question...

Osama is likely not living in the United States right now, and if he was, I really doubt his mail or CC has Osama bin Laden in the name field. So much of our tracking power, including that granted under PATRIOT ACT is not applicable.

Specifically once he stopped using Satallite Phones, he's living off the grid as it were. Likely in a cave somewhere in the world, sending couriers out to buy stuff in cash. From people who don't log sales or pay tax...

All our tracking things work great on anyone who lives here and uses the standard cards and such, buys from legit merchants and logs in to GMAIL from home.

Not so good against someone in another country that doesn't have an infrastructure to speak of, much less internet stuff, and where people barter or pay cash for items.
--
Opera 8.5(Build 7700); Windows XP Pro SP2;Athlon 64 3400+; 1GB PC3200 DDR; 1M/128k DSL; NOD32(Version 2.5.25); Outpost Pro 3;Proxomitron 4.5j Grypen 8/28/05(Opera mod),GPG ID:0x0A1C6EE3
rradina

join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO
·Charter Pipeline

Curious -- does the watermark survive a photostatic copy?

If not, print the death threat and copy it at the local library / Kinkos before you mail it.

Look for de-watermarking industry to develop. I wonder if someone will create an anonymous printer proxy that will mail it to your choice of destinations. Problem is, how does one pay for this? Mail them a couple bucks in the mail and attach it to an anonymous account name?

Imagine the error message: Death threat mailing credit is zero. Please send more money. Unable to print and mail at this time.
averagedude

join:2002-01-30
Mesa, AZ
·Cox HSI

Re: Does it survive photostatic copying?

said by rradina See Profile :

If not, print the death threat and copy it at the local library / Kinkos before you mail it.
What about the video cameras at Kinkos and the library and the ATM's, and at every street corner . . . .Eyes are every where. . . .runs and hides under blanket.

Fluker

join:2005-04-07
West Lafayette, IN
looks like next time I threaten my neighbors I will have to remove the yellow toner from the printer first.

I hear tin can be traced by the composition of its alloys too. anybody have pure tin on the order of >1 ppb?

ssj4android
Redefining Reality

join:2002-04-14
Wyoming, MI

Re: Does it survive photostatic copying?

That begs the question: What if you don't have a color ink cartridge in the printer? Would it print the marks in black? What if you do really remove all the yellow toner?

Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
Premium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA

Re: Does it survive photostatic copying?

said by ssj4android See Profile :

That begs the question: What if you don't have a color ink cartridge in the printer? Would it print the marks in black? What if you do really remove all the yellow toner?
Think about it, do you seriously think it's ONLY printing little yellow dot's. Quite frankly I think this "yellow dot" dealie is EFF fear-mongering based on an observation one of their more tin hattish associates "discovered" when using his broken printer. The real watermark (which I do believe printer manufacturers are using) isn't going to be that obvious, or that easy to defeat.
--
Note to producers:First person view + movie = bad

Fluker

join:2005-04-07
West Lafayette, IN

Re: Does it survive photostatic copying?

I would think it only prints the codes in yellow because of the lack of contrast to white paper.

But yes, it's not impossible to encode data into color and brightness variations or slight changes in dithering.

However, if you are printing a webpage with minimal coloring and black text, I would expect only yellow dots to be easily hidden and retrieved.

track this




from:
guitarzan See Profile

So you can track me by cell phone as it switches through the Cell towers; or via it's GPS; or you can track me via the use of my credit cards as I purchase fuel for my auto; or you can track my by the GPS in my car.

Now, you can track me by my printers output, Gezzzzz...I only have one thing to say.

Track this
Asmodeus

join:2004-05-26
Spring Valley, CA
i do believe that the DOTr and the secret service require this from all makers of facsimile and print manufacturers all to help prevent counterfiting...

spiceweasel

@comcast.net

i guess like a few people have said before this is really nothing new. back in college i worked at a kinko's and even 10 years ago all the color copiers had some sort of invisible watermark.

they even had (have) anti-counterfitting technology built in. if you tried to copy any sort of us currency, via the reflectivity in the ink the copier could tell that it was money and refused to make a copy. one of the xerox techs stopped by to fix a copier one day and i decided to ask him about it. turns out that if you do it enough times (he wouldn't let me) the machine locks itself and you have to put in a service call to unlock it.

and i really wouldn't go to a kinko's (or any other copy place) to do this kinda stuff. those places are so packed with video equipment. you're probably much better off just not registering a printer.

Fluker

join:2005-04-07
West Lafayette, IN


2 edits

Re: nothing new...

I think one of the main points of the watermark is not that you can be looked up in any sort of database, but that if you are caught the printer can be reliably connected to you. For instance if you have been creating counterfeit checks from your inkjet, the watermarks could uniquely tie you (or a printer frequented by you) to the documents, locations and dates of the fraud.

edit:nice name spiceweasel, that was one great show while it lasted.

Vvian Kalyss

join:2003-10-14
Stage 5.0
clubs:

See, THAT is how the systems will continue to be defeated. Insider information. How do you know that the technicians themselves are incorruptible? E.g. most car thieves surely have a basic knowledge of picking locks, stopping car alarms, and hotwiring the ignition.
--
Mikami Vvian, resident Girlfriend of Steel, care of the Tokyo-3 Middle Daughters Club
jester121

join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL
·ViaTalk

Just had a discussion today with a copier vendor at a client site. They're buying a couple of Konica Minolta Biz-hub multi-funtion machines (copy, print, scan, fax all in one). They have circuitry installed that detects a variety of currency, and if you try to scan it the machine locks up tight.

Only certain high-level techs from KM can unlock the machine, and their policy is to notify the Secret Service when it happens.
Joe123456789

join:2003-11-24
Des Plaines, IL

Re: Funny...

said by jester121 See Profile :

Just had a discussion today with a copier vendor at a client site. They're buying a couple of Konica Minolta Biz-hub multi-funtion machines (copy, print, scan, fax all in one). They have circuitry installed that detects a variety of currency, and if you try to scan it the machine locks up tight.

Only certain high-level techs from KM can unlock the machine, and their policy is to notify the Secret Service when it happens.
What about just un pluging it for a long time
jester121

join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL
·ViaTalk

Re: Funny...

These suckers have built-in hard drives and non-volatile RAM so I don't think it will "forget" the antics just like that! Besides we're talking $8-15k for one of these suckers; companies can't really afford to shut off their copier for a few weeks to clear the memory.

Time
Premium
join:2003-07-05
LOL! Next thing you know you'll be able to apply for credit cards through the stealth tracking dots on your printer.

AnonymousRepublican

@optonline.net

The article mentions the ACLU and Greenpeace. It is time to ignore it as, it has lost all credibility in my book. Besides, unless you're the type to go around printing death threats there is no reason this should bother anyone. It certainly doesn't bother me. Infact, I'd be honored if US Intelligence departments tracked what I printed from my printer. By doing so they are verifying that I am Red Blooded American and can cross me off their list of suspects assuming I'm on one.
warthunder2k

join:2002-04-20
canada

Re: The article...

Most.retarded.logic.ever

trackmenot

@emhril.ameritech
Frankly, I am uncomfortable with the whole idea. People who leave messages like this make me even more uncomfortable.
Paradyne5
Premium
join:2005-01-15
Austin, TX
For Sale: Untraceable HP 722 printer. Guaranteed anonymity! X-Files approved. $999.00 (used, no cartridges)
Paradyne5
Premium
join:2005-01-15
Austin, TX

Re: For sale

said by Paradyne5 See Profile :

For Sale: Untraceable HP 722 printer. Guaranteed anonymity! X-Files approved. $999.00 (used, no cartridges)
SOLD!!!

SparkChaser
'til we outnumber em
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast

I have a printer for sale that only prints in invisible ink. Only problem is I lost the glasses that let you read it

On the up side, I'll let it go for CHEAP
Forums » I Tracked You Via Your Printer


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