 
RustyTheDog
Premium
join:2003-05-27
Trenton, NJ | Catch I KNEW there had to be some catch to FIOS. Still can't wait for it though. | |
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 | st7860
join:2004-05-13
San Francisco, CA | Re: Catch I wonder what happens if the person sells his/her house and the buyer only wants a landline then what?
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»www.fatkidsong.com | |
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ablack6596
join:2005-01-28
Scarsdale, NY | Re: Catch The person orders telephone service, it comes over fiber. However the person doesn't order internet. | |
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join:2001-06-09
Florence, OR
| Re: Catch Wrong! What happens when there is an extended power outage? Even assuming the FIOS equipment in your home has small battery, it will go dead sooner or later.... then what? At least with copper, you don't need any power for basic Telco voice service... such as for 911, etc.
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EnasYorl
Thieves World
join:2001-12-02
West
 ·Verizon Online DSL
edit:
October 15th, @07:31PM
| Re: Catch said by spurious  : Wrong! What happens when there is an extended power outage? Even assuming the FIOS equipment in your home has small battery, it will go dead sooner or later.... then what? At least with copper, you don't need any power for basic Telco voice service... such as for 911, etc. Get a UPS and Generator. If your power is going to be out over 8 to 10 hours. Then you are going to need power for your Fridge and Freezer or you lose your food.
Battery backups last 8 to 10 hours or more if your not using the phone line to talk. | |
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join:2001-06-09
Florence, OR
| Re: Catch For many people in this country, we suffer extended power outages lasting a lot longer than 8 - 10 hours. Yes, buying a generator would be one solution.... not really viable for some people. Personally, I can last plenty long on food in the cupboards and bottled water on hand.... but having NO communications can be deadly, that being my sole point on the benefits of copper wire landline.
Ed | |
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EnasYorl
Thieves World
join:2001-12-02
West
·Verizon Online DSL
edit:
October 15th, @10:32PM
| Re: Catch said by spurious : For many people in this country, we suffer extended power outages lasting a lot longer than 8 - 10 hours. Yes, buying a generator would be one solution.... not really viable for some people. Personally, I can last plenty long on food in the cupboards and bottled water on hand.... but having NO communications can be deadly, that being my sole point on the benefits of copper wire landline. Ed In the age of Cell phones it shouldn't be that much of a concern. You can charge your phone in your car as well.
»www.powersystemsdirect.com/Power···_c27.php
My phone lasts 5 days without charging.
I'd venture to say that 99% of people who can afford FIOS will have a cell phone.
And if your suffering those type of outages then you're NOT where FIOS will be deployed as the power grid in larger cities is addressed before outlying areas.
And if it's that big of a issue get a $24 buck inverter for you Car so you can power the ONT in the garage. »www.powersystemsdirect.com/Power···_c27.php
Or Radio Shack »www.radioshack.com/category.asp?···p=search | |
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odindvatri
@rr.com
| Don't you think Verizon is few years late? While everywhere we hear 50, 100 and 1000 speed, here in US we have happy folks who just got 30 megs? My guess with backbone which Verizon has , when they start offering TV , speed will fall. I wouldn't trust them in a long term. I might be wrong, but in my opinion the future is in wireless so Verizon installs they spend billions on will in the near future become obsolete. Keep copper if possible. | |
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Tzale
Ron Paul - I Didn't Vote For Either
Premium
join:2004-01-06
NJ, USA
 ·Verizon FIOS
 ·Optimum Online
| Re: Don't you think Verizon is few years late? said by odindvatri :
While everywhere we hear 50, 100 and 1000 speed, here in US we have happy folks who just got 30 megs? My guess with backbone which Verizon has , when they start offering TV , speed will fall. I wouldn't trust them in a long term. I might be wrong, but in my opinion the future is in wireless so Verizon installs they spend billions on will in the near future become obsolete. Keep copper if possible.
You're wrong. TV, Internet and Voice are on separate fiber light bandwidth ranges. Meaning, they don't interfere with each other.
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Was ich nicht weiß, macht mich nicht heiß.~*~Keep learning because knowledge is the key to power.~*~Czego Jaś się nie nauczy, tego Jan nie będzie umiał. | |
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EnasYorl
Thieves World
join:2001-12-02
West
·Verizon Online DSL
edit:
October 15th, @07:37PM
| Re: Don't you think Verizon is few years late? said by Tzale :said by odindvatri :
While everywhere we hear 50, 100 and 1000 speed, here in US we have happy folks who just got 30 megs? My guess with backbone which Verizon has , when they start offering TV , speed will fall. I wouldn't trust them in a long term. I might be wrong, but in my opinion the future is in wireless so Verizon installs they spend billions on will in the near future become obsolete. Keep copper if possible.
You're wrong. TV, Internet and Voice are on separate fiber light bandwidth ranges. Meaning, they don't interfere with each other. You are correct. BPON is a RF overlay where Verizon is using basically the same setup as a CATV provider. All TV channels are modulated RF then put on a Optical Transmitter at 1550nm infrared light (invisible) The ONT on the side of the house converts the light back into a CATV lineup on a COAX in RF form using Frequency Division Multiplexing.
The Data portion is 1490nm and 1310nm for Upstream and downstream traffic.
All these Colors of light ride the same strand of fiber. Two Colors going from the Central Office to the subscriber and the 1310nm goes from all the subscribers back to the Central office. One can assume the downstream channel tells the end users what time slot to transmit back so they do not collide. AKA Time Division Multiplexing. | |
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| | tbeckner
join:2004-03-20
Bend, OR
edit:
October 15th, @03:23PM
| said by odindvatri :
when they start offering TV , speed will fall. Why? FIBER can support 10Gbps today, so when IPTV is active there will not be any reason for the speeds to fall below quote. | |
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| | | DavidJWood
Premium
join:2001-10-12
UK
| Re: Don't you think Verizon is few years late? More than 10Gbps is possible on fibre circuits, but for those speeds you're talking about 'conventional' two fibre circuits. 400Gbps is possible with DWDM; the theoretical maximum with current DWDM technology, as I understand it, is 1.6Tbps (terabits per second).
FIOS is a PON type system, with a single fibre to the house, and passive splitters. The bandwidth possible is high but not as high as the sort of fibre topologies used for DWDM or even lower tech setups like 10Gbps Ethernet. 1.2Gbps downstream and 622Mbps upstream PON kit is available commercially - that bandwidth is shared between all the customers on one fibre, cable modem style.
David | |
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| | | | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
·Comcast Formerly ..
| Re: Don't you think Verizon is few years late? said by DavidJWood : 1.2Gbps downstream and 622Mbps upstream PON kit is available commercially - that bandwidth is shared between all the customers on one fibre, cable modem style. David That bandwidth is available per node of 32 customers. Each node has a separate shade of light to use with the same width as previously stated.
The CATV width is the same shade across every node for a lack of a better term. While every telephone and internet node gets access to the system the same way except in a different shade.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
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| | | | | DavidJWood
Premium
join:2001-10-12
UK
| Re: Don't you think Verizon is few years late? said by BosstonesOwn :said by DavidJWood : 1.2Gbps downstream and 622Mbps upstream PON kit is available commercially - that bandwidth is shared between all the customers on one fibre, cable modem style. David That bandwidth is available per node of 32 customers. Each node has a separate shade of light to use with the same width as previously stated. Thanks for that further clarification. I was inexact in my terminology, in that I presumed each node stood alone from the next somehow, and was using the term "fibre" to describe was between each node and the subscribers.
Using different shades makes sense to me. This puts a figure on the bandwidth per customer that is possible with PON technology today in a Verizon style setup.
David | |
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| King Duck
join:2005-04-10
Elizabeth City, NC
| Re: Catch 1) If you order a service from Verizon, or any other telephone or cable provider for that matter, then it is up to Verizon (or the other provider) how they deliver that service. They could use 2 tincans and a piece of string if they wanted to and provided they could get it to work reliably you'd have no say in the matter!
2) Verizon have made no secret of the FACT that they see fiber as the future and that their intention is to eventually provide every single bit (pun intended) of their wired services over fiber and fully intend to get rid of every inch of copper out there that they own.
3) Should one choose to go with a provider other than Verizon, then any intelligent person can surely see that in this wonderful capitalist society we live in then it follows that you are also choosing to accept the cost of using that other provider, ie if you want to go with a small local telco (one that may not have economies of scale) then you are deliberately, albeit unknowingly, accepting that you will have to pay some or all of the cost for them to get an obsolete copper wire strung out to you.
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LeftOfSanity
@208.17.x.x
| Re: Catch ::Wanting to be like the cable bashers::
Wow, you must be a shill. How long have you worked for Verizon? You defend them, s they must be lining your pockets. That's the only explanation.
/sarcasm | |
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| nanogeek
join:2002-12-01
Murrieta, CA
| I have FiOS internet and I am still using the old copper line for my phone service, --as I always have. That phone service is from a local company who leases/rents the line from Verizon.
I have my doubts that this dual arrangement will last forever. The local phone company is less expensive than Verizon's phone service. Verizon couldn't come close to matching the local phone service price. | |
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christos
join:2002-01-09
Bridgewater, MA | Cry me a river ..... Please let me dump copper for ever. | |
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| XboxDruggie
Youthful Indiscretion
Premium
join:2003-08-27
Palm Coast, FL
| Re: Cry me a river ..... I'll Cry you a River... only if I can throw you into it after I'm done 
I'm joking. I just love that come-back for that statement.
Now as for FIOS... ditch and melt my old copper lines for all I care... | |
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N3OGH
Will it all be Obama's fault now?
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Cry me a river ..... I ditched my copper over 2 years ago for VOIP via cable modem.
Every time, and I do mean every time I've reached for the phone, I've gotten a dial tone. I've called 911 once, got the proper dispatch center with no problems. Of course all my equipment is backed up by a robust UPS.
About 1 year ago, my entire exchange (610-485-XXXX) went down. Everything was kaput for hours. Even the ATM's in the local store were out of service. My VOIP was working like a charm. I had the only working "landline" in the neighborhood. Not a typical story. As a matter of fact, probably a very Uber rare event. Nevertheless, an interesting story.
Fios is coming my way soon. I agree, take my copper, melt it down and make a penny with it or something.
When I do get Fios, I will install my own very large UPS behind it, just because I'm into that sort of thing.... | |
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| | | Fluker
join:2005-04-07
West Lafayette, IN | Re: Cry me a river ..... penny are mostly zinc since '82 IIRC
Make a nickel instead (75% copper)
/stupid comment | |
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Rob
In Deo speramus
Premium
join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL | Leave Copper? Copper has been in the ground of years, why can't they just leave it there? | |
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Rob
In Deo speramus
Premium
join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL
·Comcast
| Re: Leave Copper? said by nixen :said by Rob :Copper has been in the ground of years, why can't they just leave it there? So that you're locked into their service. Duh! The one thing Verizon has ALWAYS hated about DSL was that there were so many other providers in their territories that do it better. With FIOS, they're currently the only game in town. Don't like Verizon's service any more? Tough, your alternatives are now: cable, satellite, or paying to have a new copper line drawn to your house. Screw it. I'll get cable or fixed wireless before I get locked into Verizon. -tom I'm in the same boat. Bellsouth took my copper lines away and replaced it with Fiber. I can get Speakeasy, but it's like $199. Not too many places services me anymore.
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YourIP.US - Quickly Locate Your IP!
LiveWhois.Net - It's Never Been So Easy!
RR.CX My Blog.. | |
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oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA | That brings up an interesting point. What if competitors start complaining to the FCC calling this an anti-competitive practice?
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WAR HAS NEVER SOLVED ANYTHING, except ending slavery, facism, communism, Nazism.... | |
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| | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Leave Copper? said by oliphant :That brings up an interesting point. What if competitors start complaining to the FCC calling this an anti-competitive practice? I'd thnk that COVAD or someone would have a line dropped again anyway. The "consumer" may not be able to get the drop, but COVAD has a different agreemnet allowing them to get a line installed?? who knows. | |
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| | | | SD6
join:2005-03-26
| Re: Leave Copper? said by fiberguy :said by oliphant :That brings up an interesting point. What if competitors start complaining to the FCC calling this an anti-competitive practice? I'd thnk that COVAD or someone would have a line dropped again anyway. The "consumer" may not be able to get the drop, but COVAD has a different agreemnet allowing them to get a line installed?? who knows. Well you think wrong fiberguy. Covad and other CLECs had a very hard time even when the copper line was already installed. | |
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| | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Leave Copper? said by SD6 :said by fiberguy :said by oliphant :That brings up an interesting point. What if competitors start complaining to the FCC calling this an anti-competitive practice? I'd thnk that COVAD or someone would have a line dropped again anyway. The "consumer" may not be able to get the drop, but COVAD has a different agreemnet allowing them to get a line installed?? who knows. Well you think wrong fiberguy. Covad and other CLECs had a very hard time even when the copper line was already installed. Well cool your jets, SD. Having a hard time and what regulator rules say are two differnt things. Unless you know for sure, you shouldn't repsond.
Tell you what, I'll just go straigh to the source tomorrow and contact my back-end rep at Covad and see what he tells me since he deals with Verizon in FiOS areas all the time. | |
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| | | | PDXPLT
join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR
| FIOS == Kill the CLEC's. That's the whole point! said by fiberguy :said by oliphant :That brings up an interesting point. What if competitors start complaining to the FCC calling this an anti-competitive practice? I'd thnk that COVAD or someone would have a line dropped again anyway. The "consumer" may not be able to get the drop, but COVAD has a different agreemnet allowing them to get a line installed?? who knows. If COVAD wanted a copper line to the house, they'd have to install it themselves. From their own C.O., BTW.
Verizon didn't move ahead with FOIS deployment until they were assured by FCC Rulings that they would not be forced to share the fiber with anyone.
Verizon and the other ILEC's hated these line-sharing requirements. They've always argued that CLEC's should be "facilities based"; i.e., a CLEC wants to serve a subscrbier, they can run their own damn line.
The FCC, in looking for way to give incentives to ILEC's to invest, said "fine, you put in fiber, it's 100% yours".
THAT's the motivation behind FIOS, combined with needing enough bandwidth to compete with cable MSO's and be able to sell TV services.
As has been observed, Verizon is under no obligation to provide DSL to anyone. it is considered a luxury service by the goverment, not a necessity. If someone wants basic phone service, they can get it over FIOS as well. But there are lots (millions) of people that want to get DSL from Verizon, and can't. So now this includes a handful of people that could get FIOS if they wanted to. It's real, real, hard to be sympathetic. | |
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Phoneman63
join:2001-02-22
Hauppauge, NY
| said by Rob :Copper has been in the ground of years, why can't they just leave it there? Because the Telco's (VZ-NY anyway) pay taxes on the cables.
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"Leave the gun, take the cannolis" | |
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| alchav
join:2002-05-17
Palm Desert, CA
| I kind of felt the same way, but realistically it's not practical. It cost money to maintain, and if you pull it out and sell it you could recoup some capital. I talked to this Verizon Tech, and he said Fiber was almost maintenance free. When Companies are there to make money, it makes sense to pull the Copper out. | |
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TeatherWind
join:2001-08-21
Euless, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
| Awww.. poor guy.. Awww.. poor guy. Yeah.. the copper is pulled from the home. There is a few reasons I can think that they do this. One, it would be a hassle in Verizon's provisioning systers to figure out if a customer is supposed to be on copper/fiber.
The only complaint that I would have about not having copper is if the home loses power for 8+ hours, but then again, I guess phone service would be the least of my worries.
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When I've captured my adversary and he says, "Look, before you kill me, will you at least tell me what this is all about?" I'll say, "No." and shoot him. No, on second thought I'll shoot him then say "No." | |
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wmcbrine
Touched by His Noodly Appendage
join:2002-12-30
Laurel, MD
edit:
October 15th, @03:03PM
| Re: Awww.. poor guy.. It ain't the provisioning system. The principal reason is vendor lock-in. (Fiber is exempt from the open access rules that apply to copper.) A secondary reason is reducing future maintenance costs. | |
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INeedToRegister
@rr.com | Tell Installers to Leave Copper Alone? Can't you tell the install techs to not touch your copper? Is it required to cut the copper off completely to install Fios? | |
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| smcallah
join:2004-08-05
Home
| Re: Tell Installers to Leave Copper Alone? But outside the house, the copper is not "yours." So Verizon can do with it what they want, they own it.
I suppose if you had DSL already, and wanted to get it along with FIOS, Verizon wouldn't mind the multiple payments from you and let you keep the copper at that point. | |
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wmcbrine
Touched by His Noodly Appendage
join:2002-12-30
Laurel, MD | No, it is NOT required. Yes, you CAN tell them to leave it. But once it's gone, they won't put it back. And by default, they'll take it away, unless you have non-Verizon DSL, or (I think) a business line. So be sure to tell them what you want! | |
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dellsweig
Extreme Aerobatics
Premium,MVM
join:2003-12-10
Campbell Hall, NY
 ·Time Warner VOIP
| When street power fails... Just a dumb observation....
Copper allowed the phone Co to supply their own independant power (48VDC) on the copper pair. With fiber, there is no electrical connection - essentially, a voice 'line' IS VoIP.
Also, with no physical copper pair, I wonder how 911 works.. Same as VoIP - simple database lookup??
I wonder how Verizon addresses this traditional reliability issue?? | |
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| druber
join:2000-04-11
Marlborough, MA
·VOIPo
·Voip Street
| Re: When street power fails... no, it's just like a POTS line in that respect. not really like VOIP at all - the ONT supplies the power to the copper inside your house. interestingly, i tried a DSL qual check on someone's house who has FIOS now, and it said they couldn't get DSL but could get FIOS... | |
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ablack6596
join:2005-01-28
Scarsdale, NY | Re: When street power fails... I have Fios and can't get DSL. Fiber doesn't have the same distance problems as DSL. | |
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NY Tel
Premium
join:2004-04-09
Smithtown, NY
·VOIPo
·Verizon FIOS
edit:
October 15th, @12:00PM
| FiOS vs copper Plant You get a UPS and power supply that is locally powered. When the big storm hits, after 8 or so hours, your phone and Internet are dead. So it is only going to be as reliable as the power to your home is.
I understand that Verizon has the right to pick and choose who can re-sell bandwidth services on their FiOS fiber.
But this does rule out DSL..
Edited for correction | |
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| The Way Out
join:2003-01-20
| Re: FiOS vs copper Plant This is incorrect. Verizon is allowing 3rd party ISPs to resell FIOS "loops." DSLExtreme has successfully installed their first FIOS "loop" in Southern California already. This is a true layer 2 reseller deal -- DSLX is using their own layer 3 ip network. | |
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wmcbrine
Touched by His Noodly Appendage
join:2002-12-30
Laurel, MD | Re: FiOS vs copper Plant The difference is, with DSL, they have to let third-party providers on. With FiOS, it's solely at Verizon's discretion. | |
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| | | King Duck
join:2005-04-10
Elizabeth City, NC
| Re: FiOS vs copper Plant I understand that, as a result of the recent FCC decision, unlike with telephone service they are no longer obligated to allow any other company to provide DSL over their copper.
I am also given to understand that the FCC decision resulted in a significant portion of Earthlink profits being spent on a stock of Depends (tm).
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HOYCE
join:2003-12-27
|  Fiber
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jakedi
Ironhorse From Chickasaw And Chirachau
join:2000-11-11
Barrington, IL
clubs: | ?? Fucking Greedy BASTARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!1 | |
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Speedy8
Premium
join:2002-08-22
Alliance, OH
clubs: | It's hard. It's hard for me to feel sorry for these people. You can't always get everything you want. I'm pretty sure overall the pros outweigh the cons, and the amount of people wanting to switch back to plain DSL would be very small. | |
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See 8 replies to this post |
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GreggE
Thinking - Thinking
Premium
join:2003-06-01
Mid Tenn | Lose Copper Why would anyone want to give up FIOS to go back to DSL? How much money could he save by doing so...$5 a month? I'd sacrifice McDonald's once a month to keep a FIOS connection. | |
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| fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Lose Copper said by GreggE :Why would anyone want to give up FIOS to go back to DSL? How much money could he save by doing so...$5 a month? I'd sacrifice McDonald's once a month to keep a FIOS connection. Please, you should do some research for posting such a comment.
But thanks for bringing up the McDonalds comments, now I know where to get lunch today! | |
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wmcbrine
Touched by His Noodly Appendage
join:2002-12-30
Laurel, MD
| Verizon itself is offering DSL now for $15 at 768/128. This is the "lite tier" mentioned in the summary (though of course that was originally Verizon's standard DSL speed, at $50).
However, I think a strong economic case can still be made for FiOS, even for the $15 DSLers. Namely: To get that $15 DSL, you also have to pay for Verizon POTS. But you can get FiOS naked. I'm not sure of the minimum level of POTS required, but it at least closes the gap considerably. Also note that FiOS is a much better platform for VoIP than DSL is, which makes the loss of POTS with naked FiOS easier to deal with. | |
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| | robscullion
Premium
join:2001-12-07
Philadelphia, PA
| Re: Lose Copper I kind of wonder how long it'll take for Verizon to start blocking other VoIP services on their FIOS service and force users to their own brand? Seems like both Verizon and Comcast would definitely have good reason to go this route over the next few years.
Is there anything except customer backlash that would prevent such a blockage? Maybe some sort of "restraint of trade" regulation or something? | |
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kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY | Speakeasy has OneLink Speakeasy has OneLink and they will pull their cable in for few dollars extra per month - my line is OneLink for over a year now, no $40 'penalty' fee for Verizon for a dry line. | |
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nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| let's look into the future.... let's look ahead a little into the broadband future.....
2005: You've got your fios, and although they took away your copper you don't care and are delirious with joy...
2007: fios is widespread in your area, but aside from cable it's the only other game in town for broadband - the telco decides that it can raise rates and start extracting their duopoly (or monopoly) rents from their customers; in addition, customer service has been steadily declining and your connection isn't always the greatest (no competition, why should the telco care?)
2008: you're really fed up with the telco and would like to switch to something cheaper, even if it is slower - what are the choices? Cable (high price, iffy quality of service, crappy customer service) or ???????; oops, the only choice is cable (note: satellite is not considered by this writer to be a real substitute)! Earthlink could offer you DSL (FCC still requires sharing of the copper loop), but the copper's not there anymore and the telcos are not required to share the fiber. Earthlink will be happy to run some fresh copper to your house for only $1000!
A plausible scenario? Maybe not, but at the rate things are going, in a couple of years the choices will be cable or fiber (in verizon areas), a duopoly. When equilibrium is reached be prepared to start seeing broadband rate increases .
As long as telcos are not required to share the fiber, when they take away your copper you are locked out of any other broadband solution except cable. Independent ISPs will be quickly becoming a thing of the past. | |
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See 13 replies to this post |
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Get Fios, Lose Copper - Forever
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