Shaw: Crippling a Race Horse7Mbps Hits Alberta: Will caps and Torrent throttling follow? ( old news - 03:08PM Thursday Sep 15 2005) tags: bandwidth · Op/Ed · cable · worldCanadian cable provider Shaw today announced they're deploying their 7Mbps/1Mbps "Extreme-I" tier to Alberta, lauding the "amazing" new speeds customers can expect. "When we tested the download speed of Xtreme-I with broadbandreports.com, it told us that the speed was literally 'off the charts'" crows Shaw President Peter Bissonnette. "That's the kind of performance we're talking about with this new product."Not that we don't appreciate the nod, Peter, but while we're talking about performance, it seems our users have a bone to pick. The Shaw press release proclaims the new tier is perfect for bandwidth hungry customers whose internet experience includes "exploring rich multimedia sites." Luckily our forums are just brimming with just those individuals. And Peter, they're complaining that with the rise of Torrent TV and amateur video programs (like Diggnation & Digital Life TV), Shaw's 50Gig per month cap (30 gigs for standard users) simply isn't cutting it anymore. "Each show in H.264 can reach 300MB each," laments forum user Mac Write. More, he points out an even bigger problem with Shaw's service: "Most shows are distributed via BitTorrent, and with Shaw's packet shaping, that cripples the download and distribution."Yes, Mr. Bissonnette also fails to mention that Shaw has been throttling Bit Torrent traffic uploads (which in turn impact downloads) in a number of markets. An increasing number of ISPs throttle p2p traffic, but few throttle Bit Torrent specifically, since the technology - now believed to comprise as much as 40% of all web traffic - is also used for legitimate file transfers. "This (the Bit Torrent throttling) came about due to customer complaints about High-Speed Internet being... well... not high-speed," an employee told us last fall. "Turns out there was a lot (A LOT) of BT traffic in Vancouver, so much so that it was causing congestion in the RF/Fiber cable plant, or so I've been told. Cost to fix: $2 to $3 million". Instead of network upgrades, users on overloaded nodes found their broadband connections capped and throttled. When they asked Shaw why, Shaw denied it was taking place. Isn't lauding the performance of a tier aimed at high-consumption users hypocritical if you're going to quietly prevent them from taking full advantage?
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 |  | Primis1
join:2005-06-13
Coldwater, MI
| Re: Cable always has upload problems I gotta' disagree though.
A few years ago still, it made sense still in many ways. Not any more though.
The internet is supposed to be a tool to exchange data and ideas. "Exchange", not "download". EXCHANGE, as in back and forth. To exchange, I have to have reasonable upload, and all the download in the world can't and won't make up for it if my upload sucks or is capped. And if my download is fine but my upload sucks, then the exchange process sucks.
It's no longer just text-based. Nor is it about increased multimedia during normal "surfing". It has nothing to do with surfing, never has been and never will be. "Surfing" isn't what most people do anymore, they want to do more.
It has to do with if I record a track and want to send it to a buddy to have him lay a track of his own over it and mix it togetehr to send back. It has to do with if I want to send a large .PSD to someone to have them correct or fix something in it. It has to do with the 10-minute movie I recorded at a reunion earlier in the day and would like to send to my cousin in the military serving overseas to keep them in the loop and let them know they're not forgotten.
These are things everyday users want, and expect, to do now. Not commercial or business users, just regular users.
And if cable can't provide that... then get the hell out of my way and let someone else through that *CAN* provide the upload I want and expect. Because a poor infrastructure or plan on cable's part is *their* problem, not mine, and no I'm not obligated to feel sorry because someone can't keep up with the demand. | |
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TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
 ·Comcast
edit:
September 15th, @11:10PM
| Re: Cable always has upload problems But will you be willing to pay what it costs to do the upgrades? And do you think these upgrades should be born by all users or by those putting the larger demands on the system?
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My Web Page
Join Red Room Forum | |
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech
| Re: Cable always has upload problems Well in this case users are already paying more for the tier, so they are contributing more capital than the average user.
The tier is also clearly being marketed toward that hungrier user-base. Don't want them gobbling up that bandwidth, or can't supply it? Tone down the speed rhetoric slightly.
Raise the caps to 100GB monthly and eliminate app-specific throttling and they'd have no complaints. | |
| | | | Primis1
join:2005-06-13
Coldwater, MI
| quote:
But will you be willing to pay what it costs to do the upgrades?
Excuse me? It's the cableco's obligation to pay for the upgrades, or else. The "or else" being "you'll lose your userbase". The burden is not on me, the user. They already HAVE our money, what are they using it for?
It is not the user's responsibility to durectly pay for natural progression to meet increasing demands. That's the company's responsibility. And if they can't hack it, then their business model is flawed and... that's not my fault or responsibility.
It's called capitalism. It's darwinistic in nature. If you can't provide what's necessary or can't cut it.. too bad. Those are the breaks. It's life.
It's not the Special Olympics. It's not welfare. It's not "Help out a multi-billion dollar-earning brotha'" Day. It's reality. You (meaning the cablecos) have income. USE IT, and use it wisely. If you're not... then I guess it sucks to be you. | |
| | | | | Drex_CS
join:2005-05-11
canada
| Re: Cable always has upload problems said by Primis1  :And if they can't hack it, then their business model is flawed and... that's not my fault or responsibility....It's called capitalism. It's darwinistic in nature. If you can't provide what's necessary or can't cut it.. too bad. Those are the breaks. It's life. First, your missing a big point here, Shaw *does* meet the demands of most users. just because you choose to download and pirate 100's of GB's a month of info doesn't mean my grandma does as well. You need to learn how to put your feet in other people's shoes. For every 1 or 2 of you (and me) who download a lot, there are 100 people who use 10 Gb a month if they go crazy on it.
Shaw's the 2nd largest CableCo in the country I believe.. looks like they're havin a rough time eh?  | |
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech
| Re: Cable always has upload problems quote:
just because you choose to download and pirate 100's of GB's a month of info doesn't mean my grandma does as well.
Again though, that's why Grandma is on the standard plan and he's clearly going to go for the Extreme tier (and pay more for it).
Grandma would be offered a "Lite" plan if cable operators weren't afraid standard customers would downgrade and they'd lose revenue. Instead, she's using 10% of a $50 connection and paying much more than she's getting. So it works both ways.
Cable companies hold some responsibility for their marketing choices, you know.... | |
| | | | | | | Drex_CS
join:2005-05-11
canada
| Re: Cable always has upload problems said by Karl Bode : quote:
just because you choose to download and pirate 100's of GB's a month of info doesn't mean my grandma does as well.
Grandma would be offered a "Lite" plan if cable operators weren't afraid standard customers would downgrade and they'd lose revenue. She is on the Lite plan, shaw does offer that (128kbps). I dont mean to say that shaw is right in capping at 50 (I said earlier that a raise would be good) but saying that Shaw is going to go out of buisness because of the 5 to 8% of people that hit 100 GB a month is silly. And 80+% of shaw's internet basis are made up of people that wont go over that cap unless they really try to. | |
| | | | | | zod5000
join:2003-10-21
Edmonton, AB
 ·TELUS
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| the argument is flawed, because when shaw states their statistics in those warning emails that say you're in the top 10 percent. They fail to point out how many people they already punted off their networks (or left due to the warnings).
why don't you guys see how that artifically lowers the bandwidth usage numbers their always flashing. Mix that with the caps, and of course its not hard to get in the top 10 percent. To get an accurate number, they'd have to let the floodgates open for a few months, let the people comeback, redo the states, and see what kind of average they get, and then still see if you're in the top 10 percent.
shaw controls their own bloody statistics through indimidation and threats. | |
| | | | | | | Drex_CS
join:2005-05-11
canada
edit:
September 15th, @06:24PM
| Re: Cable always has upload problems said by zod5000 :the argument is flawed, because when shaw states their statistics in those warning emails that say you're in the top 10 percent. They fail to point out how many people they already punted off their networks (or left due to the warnings). shaw controls their own bloody statistics through indimidation and threats. Never heard of someone being punted off the system. usually it's a standard phone call/emial saying to slow it down a bit.. if you do, then they forget about you, if you dont, they turn off your modem for a predetermined amount of time (which they tell you before hand).
Ofcourse they dont count people that leave... you want them to count everyone who is not using thier internet? why dont you ask them to put thier caps up by making an assumption on the fact that they "could" have all of north america as customers... just sounds stupid now doesn't it?
What threats are you getting from shaw? I know i got a letter that said they are offering me a free trial of thier Cable because I have the internet.. O and there was this scary one about how they're offering a inexpensive phone service now.. ya that one was scary! | |
| | | | | | | | zod5000
join:2003-10-21
Edmonton, AB | Re: Cable always has upload problems yah they'll kick off if suspensions don't work on you. | |
| | | | | | Primis1
join:2005-06-13
Coldwater, MI
| quote:
First, your missing a big point here, Shaw *does* meet the demands of most users. just because you choose to download and pirate 100's of GB's a month of info doesn't mean my grandma does as well. You need to learn how to put your feet in other people's shoes.
No, I don't. Aside from your childish resorting to accusation of piracy because you're apparently bereft of any other argument, you also didn't actually read a single thing I've said yet obviously, since you're harping on download. The DOWNload is irrelevant. We want more UPload. I don't use much in the way of download anymore, I find myself using upload more and more.
And the original argument was that "The cableco's infrastructure can't handle increased upload".
And the statement that "Are you willing to pay more?" for something I should already have by now in the year 2005 is completely asinine and stupid.
Thus why I said "If they can't hack it and keep up... that's their problem not mine". My demands as a consumer don't have to in any way take into consideration any 5-year or 10-year plan they may or may not have. | |
| | | | | | | Drex_CS
join:2005-05-11
canada
| Re: Cable always has upload problems said by Primis1 : Aside from your childish resorting to accusation of piracy because you're apparently bereft of any other argument...I find myself using upload more and more. Well you picked out 2 things in there that I'm not arguing. I only said the pirate thing because, be honest, how are going over 70 GB a month just downloading/uploading pic's from your friends? Doubtful...
One thing your missing (and it's a big thing) is that YOU are not the average user.
The Xtreme internet IS for media heavy users, as well as gamers, but it's pretty hard to be over the cap just doing that. When you start breaking 50GB that means your getting a lot of pod casts, downloading through p2p/torrent, etc.
I think the goal of Xtreme is not to download and upload music/movies/etc.. it's goal is to be able to watch stuff on websites and gaming. (Shaw's goal isn't to help you with p2p/torrent/etc) | |
| | | | 
anonpronman
@dsl.net
| IF they have the download capacity they also have the upload capacity.. They "ISP" simply don't want to spend the extra $$$ on the upload..
Larger Demand? Proper provisioning on the isp's part is what i say.. everyone should be treated equal.. NO MATTER WHAT.. | |
| | | | zod5000
join:2003-10-21
Edmonton, AB
·TELUS
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| shaw makes more then enough to pay for the upgrades a year, they are just squeezing the existing system to increase profits.
They are like any other freemarket company, its about making as much money as possible, its not about the customers.
from their point of view, you can see why, there isn't really any competion in western Canada. You've got telus, and then you've got all the companies that resell either shaw or telus.
Telus is fairly slower, and has been dicking around with idea of caps lately.
shaw can just keep screwing people over, because they're aren't really any places for their customers to go. For ever high bandwidth user they dump of their system then can bring on about 300 people like my grandparents. Then is skews their statisitics (because they boot off all the high bandwidth users), then they can tell high users their in top 5 or 10 percent, went that number is screwy, because there can't be alot of heavy users, because they chased 'em all away.. lol
Shaw is so damned crooked it drives me nuts (I've been lingering on telus, because as of yet, they haven't punted me off or threatened me with suspension.. also no p2p throttling). Telus is slower, but in the long run (unless they do begin to enforce caps), having a slower speed, but a more accessible connection wins out for me. | |
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Wills
join:2001-01-03
Port Charlotte, FL
| said by TK Junk Mail :But will you be willing to pay what it costs to do the upgrades? And do you think these upgrades should be born by all users or by those putting the larger demands on the system? The cost to fix this solution for Shaw was 2 to 3 million dollars.
Are you expecting me to believe, that the largest cable provider in Canada, doesn't have 2 or 3 million just laying around?
The ones putting the larger demands on the systems ARE paying for it. They are paying a higher price for those higher speeds they'll never see.
Only 3 million to fix these problems, yet Shaw chose to cap their users. That is greed, plain and simple.
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I have a shaved head, a goatee, and tatoos. Don't you realize the rules don't apply to me. | |
| | | | | Drex_CS
join:2005-05-11
canada
| Re: Cable always has upload problems said by Wills :Are you expecting me to believe, that the largest cable provider in Canada, doesn't have 2 or 3 million just laying around? If your paying for the higher speeds, then you ARE using them. and the 2 or 3 million wasn't for thier whole network, that was for the specific area. If you wanted unlimited bandwidth, you'd be asking shaw to revamp every node in the country. (which would mean a lot more money)
By the way, incase some of you didn't know, shaw is already fixing this, Calgary and most of Edmonton have already had heavy upgrades done. The reason they haven't allowed higher usage is because of vancouver/lower mainland where the nodes *are* over crowded and one person doing a lot of trafic will slow up the rest. Give it a year or two and hopefully it'll all be done. | |
| | | | | | Bandito
join:2003-01-23 | Re: Cable always has upload problems We've been waiting for a year now, and crowded nodes are still an issue. | |
| | | | | | | Drex_CS
join:2005-05-11
canada | Re: Cable always has upload problems how many years have people in the states been waiting for fiber/adsl2+ ??
I realize thier upgrades are not the best out in Vancover there, but atleast they're WORKING on it. | |
| | | | | 
Thingamajig
Premium
join:2004-11-03
B.C.
| said by Wills :said by TK Junk Mail : The cost to fix this solution for Shaw was 2 to 3 million dollars. Are you expecting me to believe, that the largest cable provider in Canada, doesn't have 2 or 3 million just laying around? The ones putting the larger demands on the systems ARE paying for it. They are paying a higher price for those higher speeds they'll never see. Only 3 million to fix these problems, yet Shaw chose to cap their users. That is greed, plain and simple. 2 to 3 million to repair?!? See where they are putting their money you've so generously given them...
»www.shaw.ca/en-ca/AboutShaw/Medi···eleases/
August 25 2005 - Purchase of 1,000,000 class B shares
January 20 2005 - Purchase of 200,000 class B shares
- Purchase of 43,500 class A shares
November 5 2004 - Purchase of 750,000 class B shares
All the shares purchased were in the $22-25 range in this time period. Thats 1993500 shares purchased using the $22 figure thats $43,857,000 to buy back their own stock in the past 12 months. Meanwhile the Greater Vancouver area has still not undergone any significant upgrades to alleviate congestion and throttling. The bold emphasis above rings true! | |
| | | Drex_CS
join:2005-05-11
canada
edit:
September 15th, @03:38PM
| I agree, the demand *does* need to be met.. but list a company (even in the US) that allows full out DL/UL, and to do that as much as you want...
I think that Retire_Rich has the idea here. Allow over usage, but make them pay for it.
I think they *should* up the cap a bit though. While 50GB is MORE than enough for most users (talking about non-bbr visitors here) for some of us who like to Dl thier favorite shows/pod casts, 50 is to little.. 75 or 100 GB would be fair I think, if you go over that then you should rethink what your getting. | |
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RadioDoc
Sortofadog
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Midwest
| Re: Cable always has upload problems said by Drex_CS : but list a company (even in the US) that allows full out DL/UL, and to do that as much as you want... No major DSL provider has such limits. Speaking from 5 years experience with SBC, I can run my 6016/608 connection 24/7 (servers are legal, too) and not see any throttling or receive a "bandwidth hog" nastygram.
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Let me see you make decisions, without your television. | |
| | | | | Drex_CS
join:2005-05-11
canada
| Re: Cable always has upload problems said by RadioDoc :said by Drex_CS : but list a company (even in the US) that allows full out DL/UL, and to do that as much as you want... No major DSL provider has such limits. Speaking from 5 years experience with SBC, I can run my 6016/608 connection 24/7 (servers are legal, too) and not see any throttling or receive a "bandwidth hog" nastygram. Sorry I meant Cable Internet provider, DSL is different because they don't run through the same kind of node system that cable does. In Alberta (and BC I believe) Telus is the DSL provider and they have caps as well (though they don't enforce it strictly) Competition + Demand = Results | |
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TWCisagoat
@rr.com | Re: Cable always has upload problems Time Warner Cable. | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Drex_CS
join:2005-05-11
canada
| Re: Is this really new news? said by wriley :I signed up for extreme a few months ago and Have been enjoying well over 7Mbps/1Mbps since then. the news is that xtreme-i is offered in souther alberta now, before it was only in major cities (calgary/edmonton)
that and they're taking some time to compain about the caps  | |
| | |
fkkdflsd
@shawcable.net | throttle Not only do they do this to BT, but news servers are capped aswell. | |
| | Drex_CS
join:2005-05-11
canada
| Re: throttle how do you know? any proof?
Not to discredit you, but a lot of people say DL's are capped when really it's a problem with the (A)Seeders on BT, or (B)It only uploads at a certain speed and maybe it's bogged down...
but if you have proof of it, then good to know. | |
| | |
See 7 replies to this post | |
VTHT
@shawcable.net
| Digital Age? Guys, aren't we in the digital age or on the verge of it or something like that? Can we really progress forward with technology if people are willing to spend money for a service, but aren't being offered it by companies? Is asking for unlimited internet in this day and age seriously that huge a request? It's not as if everyone is going to be using an exorbidant amount of bandwidth, and it's also very unlikely that the people who do use large amounts would bring a properly maintained network to its knees.
Shaw probably has close to 650,000 subscribers in the GVRD but refuses to upgrade their networks. Remember that Shaw already got rid of the superb network Rogers had established in the GVRD (which had been serving the smaller user base just fine and could have been kept) to make way for a cheaper and less effective network. The internet has exploded in the past 4 years, and will only continue to grow. I see reports of 15mbps tests and have friends (in the USA) who download with impunity, hundreds of gigabytes a month, while I am stuck here in Vancouver on a Shaw line, unable to download over 30gb for fear that I will be suspended or worse, kicked off of the only highspeed ISP available in my area. A few scant years ago Canada was a broadband powerhouse, but is being left behind in the dust by a country more willing to spend money on improving the lives of its citizens through entertainment and the free exchange of ideas, media, and art.
Having an X-treme I (or whatever idiotic name they picked for it) is useless, any of the speed you can get out of it is completely negated by the fact that you have a mere 50gb cap. This is rapidly becoming the digital age, and Shaw is only holding the GVRD and the rest of Canada back with its improper business and unwillingness to upgrade their systems .
Yeah, it's very true that many people use lots of bandwidth for piracy, but give the internet four or five more years and don't be surprised if some of us are downloading HDTV quality content on a daily basis because it is being offered and there is the technology out there for it to be delivered. The piracy defense isn't going to be valid forever, I'm glad that this discussion has been relatively free of "U PIRATE LOTS OF STUFF SO U GO OVER LIMIT U IDIOT."
I'm waiting on this digital age stuff. | |
| | davisx
join:2005-01-06
·Shaw
| Re: Digital Age? "Remember that Shaw already got rid of the superb network Rogers had established in the GVRD (which had been serving the smaller user base just fine and could have been kept) to make way for a cheaper and less effective network."
LOL!! Did you actually know the state of affairs in vancouver before shaw got it? even after it still was shitty... but from my understanding they are upgrading it for digital phone. | |
| | | blackkitty
join:2005-06-10
Mission, BC | Re: Digital Age? Why even bother offering 7 Mbps if you cant even use it.
Wheres the competition though??
*Wish I lived in the US* | |
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Thingamajig
Premium
join:2004-11-03
B.C.
| said by davisx :LOL!! Did you actually know the state of affairs in vancouver before shaw got it? even after it still was shitty... but from my understanding they are upgrading it for digital phone. Do you?
Lets see...
Status monitoring of all Trunk amplifiers- Shod removed!
Status monitoring of all power supplies and their back up batteries- Shod removed!
Back up batteries for the power supplies- Shod removed!
Heated and air conditioned stations through out the GVRD for the implementation of sub stations- Shod removed!
Rebuilt nodes (SFU) that were operational at 860mhz to 860mhz while many others are still 625 mhz. (Gee I wonder which vice president lives by SFU?)
The GVRD when Rogers was here was on the verge of VOIP, Shod came in and put the system back 10 years in one short year of mismanagement. Their priority then (and still is today)was to kick the shit out of their union members rather than offer their customers a better performing system. Ya, sounds like its different in Alberta...I'm envious, but here its supremely f'd up!! | |
| | | | 
Rogers1
join:2004-10-14
Canada | Re: Digital Age? Well im glad that Shaw got GVRD Becuase her in New Brunswick we go Rogers. I love the services network is great just wish we had DPS. | |
| yong_sa
join:2004-01-24
Coquitlam, BC
| I don't want to pay for your porn or warez Good for Shaw on throttling bittorrent. Let's be honest. 90% of you use bittorrent to download porn warez or movies/music you have no intention of paying for. It's you 90 percent who have ruined it for the legitimate users of bittorrent.
I don't want my Xtreme service price to go up because of upgrades in order to facilitate people who are too cheap (or underage) to pay for porn, warez or unpaid music.
Kudos to Shaw for putting a stop to that. | |
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Cable always has upload problems
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