 
TheHondaMan
join:2001-03-23
Milwaukee, WI
| He's right The reason why the incumbents are so afraid of muni-broadband providers is because of their lower overhead. No advertising, no sponsorships, no bloated CEO pay, no outsourcing installation work to 3rd party contractors that are overpaid and don't always get the job done the first time. Municipal providers focus on the community they serve - no where else. It's that focus on only one area that allows for resources to be spent wisely and most effectively. Not to mention a shorter chain of command and less bureaucracy. | |
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garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY | Re: He's right careful, you don't want to rile the "not my tax dollars!" crowd...;) | |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa | Re: He's right One of the things I don't get about the "not my wallet" crowd is that it's non-profit ... it just has to break even ... costing the taxpayer nothing. And if they price competetively, then there's profits to be had which will actually reduce taxes. | |
| | | | B
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-28
| Re: He's right
How delightful. Right now there are only 4 posts in this thread, and they're all pro-municipal-broadband.
Sadly, that won't last.
-- B
inconceivable to me why people oppose government related programs...because they're government related programs. It's inane and anarchistic on the face of it.
--
In a realm outside causality and function | |
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verolom
join:2002-03-23
Eagleville, PA | Re: He's right Yep, the disaster in the Gulf states reassures all of us how reliable and efficient is the government. We should entrust in it even more. | |
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verolom
join:2002-03-23
Eagleville, PA
 ·Comcast
1 edit | Re: He's right FEMA wasn't based down there, the state controlled national guard wasn't down there, and the mayor did nothing before the destruction happened to warn and evacuate the people, sadly many of whom poor and relying on the government for most of their existence.
And despite the flooding, majority of the wired telecom networks, including a data hosting center in the middle of NO kept humming because they were designed to withstand such events.
The reason consumer broadband is so behind is not because it is provided by companies, but because these companies are too much like the government, they look for short-term solutions and gains, and feel entitled and omnipotent. | |
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Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
Premium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA
| said by sbrook  :One of the things I don't get about the "not my wallet" crowd is that it's non-profit ... it just has to break even ... costing the taxpayer nothing. And if they price competetively, then there's profits to be had which will actually reduce taxes. Because you and most other people only look at the direct costs and assume that what is stated at inception will be adhered to, history tells us that it won't. You tote your banner of "tax money free" but ignore the fact that the credit is given with the bank fully aware that joe taxpayer is ultimately co-signing.
You're extra naive if you think that "income" would be used to reduce taxes.
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Pi Piru Piru Piru PiPiru Pi! | |
| | | | | bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| Re: He's right said by Combat Chuck :You tote your banner of "tax money free" but ignore the fact that the credit is given with the bank fully aware that joe taxpayer is ultimately co-signing. THAT depends on how the muni operation is structured... It is entirely possible to structure a muni operation to prevent that from happening.
--
Hide and Seek for adults...
My apolitical blog... | |
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Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
Premium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA
| Re: He's right said by bmn :THAT depends on how the muni operation is structured... It is entirely possible to structure a muni operation to prevent that from happening. I don't think you can without the muni actually being a private entity.
Personally I have no problem with the government building out the infrastructure and even jacking up my taxes to pay for it; the same way the current highway infrastructure works. My support ends when the government decides to sell content themselves and/or limit who can sell content over those wires.
--
Pi Piru Piru Piru PiPiru Pi! | |
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| | noone1
join:2004-06-04
Nashua, NH
| said by garagerock :careful, you don't want to rile the "not my tax dollars!" crowd...;) I am one of the "not my tax dollars!" crowd and I support municipal broad band initiatives. We are against Federal Tax dollars doing this, but at the town level, I can actually have a say and my vote might actually matter. If I do not like it, heck, I can move.
The "not my tax dollar" people are against large federal (wasteful, bloated, etc) system and push for more state and town level control.
It is to bad neither of the two major parties today support this notion. | |
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garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY
| Re: He's right said by noone1 :said by garagerock :careful, you don't want to rile the "not my tax dollars!" crowd...;) I am one of the "not my tax dollars!" crowd and I support municipal broad band initiatives. We are against Federal Tax dollars doing this, but at the town level, I can actually have a say and my vote might actually matter. If I do not like it, heck, I can move. The "not my tax dollar" people are against large federal (wasteful, bloated, etc) system and push for more state and town level control. It is to bad neither of the two major parties today support this notion. Funny, I don't see any federal dollars going towards muni projects. Maybe I'm wrong.
There's plenty to be pissed off about at the federal level insofar as bloat, graft, and pork, from both sides of the aisle, but I find it hard to be against local tax dollars investing in the local economy. Just my two cents. | |
| | | | | noone1
join:2004-06-04
Nashua, NH
| Re: He's right said by garagerock :said by noone1 :I am one of the "not my tax dollars!" crowd and I support municipal broad band initiatives. We are against Federal Tax dollars doing this, but at the town level, I can actually have a say and my vote might actually matter. If I do not like it, heck, I can move. Funny, I don't see any federal dollars going towards muni projects. Maybe I'm wrong. There's plenty to be pissed off about at the federal level insofar as bloat, graft, and pork, from both sides of the aisle, but I find it hard to be against local tax dollars investing in the local economy. Just my two cents. If you read my post (maybe you did and I am just misinterpreting what you are trying to say) I said I support local towns attempting this with their townfolks approval. If they want to spend their dollars in such a manner, great!
I never said there is any federal dollars going to these projects; although its just a matter of time till someplace it is porked in. | |
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| myokitis
join:2004-06-19
Alexandria, VA
| Muni BBand I don't get this whole muni-broadband thing . . . everyone wants something for nothing. And even if the munis will charge some nominal amount, what gives these govt entities the right to compete with private companies? Heck, automobile repair is an essential service in the economy, why don't cities just start their own automobile repair shops because someone believes that car shops currently charge too much? | |
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texans20
Premium
join:2002-09-28
Texas!
clubs:
| Goodbye Telecos The wired teleco companies are turning into a thing of the past. They used to control video, voice, and data communications into the home. Now video can be had on a satellite only 18" in diameter with better quality than cable, voice can be had on a cellular phone for the same price if not cheaper than a wired line; or VOIP. Data is the only thing left for them, once competition for data is out, they will die.
I'd love to get rid of Time Warner as soon as I can get a better data connection to the internet. The only reason they get my money is I go to one monopoly, or another (SBC).
It's as stupid to ban munis as it is to ban public schools because they unfairly compete with private schools. | |
| | TexasDSL
Premium
join:2005-06-11
Montgomery, TX
 ·Consolidated Commu..
|  Re: Goodbye Telecos
If a muni does come in and provides service with tax dollars which causes all other providers to exit the area, who will you get internet access from when they decide that they need to impose restrictions on content because one of the city councilmen doesn’t want you looking at porn.
Just some things to think about | |
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech
| Re: Goodbye Telecos quote:
when they decide that they need to impose restrictions on content because one of the city councilmen doesn’t want you looking at porn.
Very solid fear mongering! The Heartland Institute would be proud.
I've heard they would ration my internet usage and ban my religious programming as well, can you provide insight on this? | |
| | | | B
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-28 | Re: Goodbye TelecosOh well. See my post above. 
-- B | |
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footballdude
Premium
join:2002-08-13
Imperial, MO
| said by Karl Bode :Very solid fear mongering! The Heartland Institute would be proud. After seeing the pledge of allegiance banned yet again and watching the ten commandments get banned, do you really want to gamble that the pinheads won't come after government provided internet content? | |
| | | | | B
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-28 | Re: Goodbye Telecos
Why do you hate Broadband?
-- B | |
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footballdude
Premium
join:2002-08-13
Imperial, MO | Re: Goodbye Telecos said by B :Why do you hate Broadband? ??? | |
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| | | | | liquidnw
join:2005-06-05
Bronx, NY | Munies aren't gonna drive verizon,comcast etc out of any area. I'm sure most markets could handle having another option in broadband video etc. Munis will just be another option. | |
| | | underscore
join:2004-04-20
Fairfax, VA
| said by TexasDSL :When was the last time you had a choice on who provided water to your house? Deer Park brings (drinking) water to my house | |
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DaDogs
Semper Vigilantis
Premium
join:2004-02-28
Deltaville, VA
| said by TexasDSL :Do you honestly think that a muni in not a type of monopoly? Yes, I honestly think that a muni-broadband provider is not a type of monopoly. Nobody is stopping you from sticking with Verzon, SBC, or Comcast, which would still be available in a muni provider.
said by TexasDSL : When was the last time you had a choice on who provided water to your house? Not the same scenario ...
said by TexasDSL :If a muni does come in and provides service with tax dollars which causes all other providers to exit the area, who will you get internet access from when they decide that they need to impose restrictions on content because one of the city councilmen doesn’t want you looking at porn. Just some things to think about Please ... there are things to think about and things to not worry about at all.
Can you elect the people who provide your broadband? If they decide they don't want you watching porn, what are you going to do about it? If they decide they don't want you running a mail server, what are you going to do about it? With a councilman you can terminate him at reelection time.
What is to stop a large carrier from kissing up to the FBI when they come calling to Verizon, or SBC, or Comcast with some adhoc desire to monitor more than they should be allowed. Would your local councilman be more likely to try to tell them to piss off than the coorporate entity in the New York offices?
You figure it out.
--
How can I improve my WiFi signal? | |
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pcscdma
Chocobo Chocobo Random Battle
Premium
join:2004-01-14
Winterset, IA
clubs:
| said by TexasDSL :When was the last time you had a choice on who provided water to your house? Do you have a choice in who provides you with the electricity? I know places in Texas that allow you to choose electricity providers.
And yes, I happen to have a choice in the water that I get. Bottled water is a choice I have.
--
Posting .sig | |
| | | | TexasDSL
Premium
join:2005-06-11
Montgomery, TX
·Consolidated Commu..
| Re: Goodbye Telecos This was just an example, and I do not think bottled water is a true choice unless you use it to water your lawn, shower with it and wash your close with it. Do you think you could get by with just bottled water alone? In my opinion this is not real choice.
And I do not have a choice of electric providers, I wish I did. I guess what I am saying is competition is good, as long as one side does not have an unfair advantage. | |
| | | | | averagedude
join:2002-01-30
Mesa, AZ
·Cox HSI
1 edit | Re: Goodbye Telecos As stupid as this might sound -
Yes you do have a choice in water providers. Here in Arizona, in the way out parts, people do bring in their own water and not by wells, but by truck. They drink, bath, lawn, whatever with it.
Yes, you do have a choice in electrical providers. You can put solar cells on you house (see related articles where Gov of California Arnold wants to put solar on every house).
There are always choices. Can you front the money to set up your own water and electrical co-op? Obviously some have and it works and doesn't for others.
Please no flame - just being devils advocate.
Edit:
For the record my aunt in San Diego has been on Solar Photo Cells for electricity for 25+ years (absolutely no outside power by SDGE). It was apx $50,000 to set up a one time cost (now it would be significantly cheaper). Even during the fires and black outs her big house was lit like a Christmas tree. $50k divide by 25 years = $166 a month. That is nothing compared to what her big house should have been costing her per month. An all electric house, stove, range, dryer, and AC. | |
| | | | | | k_mumm
join:2001-06-14
Laramie, WY | Re: Goodbye Telecos She hasn't had to replace any batteries in the last 25 years? I'm sorry but the econmics of solar power just aren't there yet. | |
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
·Cox HSI
| said by texans20 :The wired teleco companies are turning into a thing of the past. They used to control video, voice, and data communications into the home. Now video can be had on a satellite only 18" in diameter with better quality than cable, voice can be had on a cellular phone for the same price if not cheaper than a wired line; or VOIP. Data is the only thing left for them, once competition for data is out, they will die. Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves just yet. They still control those things. While I agree that DBS smokes most Cable offerings nationwide, it remains to be seen how the "wired" vs DBS will play out in the HDTV spectrum, where the DBS crowd may be squeezed to fit those bandwidth intensive channels into their alloted spectrum.
As for Celluar/Wireless phones, let's not forget that most providers are OWNED by the big Telco incumbents, and through ongoing mergers, I believe will stifle much of the competition and reinforce market control.
As to VOIP, it's still unreliable at least at the home consumer level... and let's not forget that the VOIP service is being provided over the broadband links you buy from the big incumbents...
It remains to be seen, but the danger is very real that the big incumbents will just continue to entrench themselves and simply buy up, purchase legislation against, or merge with any and all competition.
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
| | averagedude
join:2002-01-30
Mesa, AZ
·Cox HSI
| said by texans20 :It's as stupid to ban munis as it is to ban public schools because they unfairly compete with private schools. bingo bingo! | |
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poor boy
@204.251.x.x | muni broadband Krk you are correct! like the hiv virus comcast wont die just mutate into a different strain, buy up a company or a merger or 2, a name change and do business elsewhere | |
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SweetDelight
lagomorph
Premium
join:2004-09-04
Earth | But... I thought Google wasn't going to talk to cnet over that one article of using Google founder information?
bah. | |
| | nerdboy789
join:2004-06-07
Rigby, ID
| But... I think Cerf isn't starting with them officially till Oct 2nd, so maybe they're making an exception until then  .
Plus, he didn't really talk about Google as much as he did about his vision for the future .
Oh and to the poster that said that the corporate entities will kiss up to the FBI and let them have your information/emails, you can bet your bottom dollar that any muni broadband will include something to that effect in their TOS, because someone will say that it was financed with tax payer dollars therfore the government has a right to snoop on it.
And even if no one does this, you can bet the FBI et al are all happily reading our emails and tracking us anyway. It's become good practice in government to not trust your citizenry, just as it's become good practice where I work in IT and networking not to trust your users and only allow them very limited access and monitor that access every second of the time they're on the job and using your resources.
I may be good friends with the people I work with and work for, but would I trust them with my network and resources not to abuse it?? absolutely not.
Just my $.02 | |
| | | averagedude
join:2002-01-30
Mesa, AZ
·Cox HSI
| Re: But... said by nerdboy789 :And even if no one does this, you can bet the FBI et al are all happily reading our emails and tracking us anyway. I thought that was a given.
I always try to follow this rule "Never Never write (paper or electronic or phone) anything down that you might come back and bite you in the rear."
You can always soften your what you have to say but still get the point across. | |
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TCP/IP Co-Creator on Broadband
