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story category Fear the Fios
Verizon: Scaring the crap out of cable execs since 2004
(old news - 02:23PM Wednesday Jul 06 2005)
tags: Fiber · coverage
It's like geek Christmas, but our users aren't waiting for Santa. They're longingly searching for the tell-tale sign their neighborhood has been blessed by the Fios gods: spools of orange fiber optic cable on Verizon trucks. The deployment of Verizon fiber has cable executives in a sweat, prompting them to offer speeds their networks may not yet fully support in volume.

If you weren't aware by now, Verizon's fiber to the home technology comes in three flavors: 5Mbps/2Mbps for $40, 15Mbps/2Mbps for $50, or 30Mbps/5Mbps for $200 a month. Our Verizon Fios forum users maintain an excellent FAQ.

I've been hard on Verizon in the past for their blatant ripoff of Pennsylvanians and their efforts to tell people they can't wire their own city with broadband; but they deserve full credit here. Their multi-billion dollar next generation broadband deployment is making everything else look like tin cans and string. How far they're willing to go with deployment is a worry saved for another day (say, March of 2008).

In Northern Virginia and portions of Rhode Island, the deployments have Cox Communication execs worried. With recent DOCSIS 2.0 upgrades completed, they've started offering a 15Mbps/2Mbps tier. Likewise Adelphia has unveiled their own 16Mbps Virginia tier. According to DSLPrime's Dave Burstein however, the offerings are largely a public relations move while the cable industry buys time for upgrades.

"It's really 38 meg shared among 100 or so users, the same speed as the current services advertised at as 3 and 7 meg," says Burstein of Cox's new tier. "That's too much over-subscription to deliver 15 meg most of the time, if even 5 or 10 people are downloading on the node. To regularly get past today's 5 meg or so, you need to bond more channels, which is what DOCSIS 3.0 offers," he tells us.

The channel bonding offered by the DOCSIS 3.0 standard - which doesn't exist yet - and isn't expected to start showing up until well into 2006 - is what Comcast CEO Brian Roberts keeps hinting at when he states that 100+Mbps cable is inevitable. In the interim, his company should announce new speeds this month that are closer to 10Mbps.

Keep in mind though that this is a half-decade long process, and for every Fairfax Virginia, there's entire swaths of Charter, Qwest or middle America Cox markets that number crunchers couldn't care less about. As it stands, Verizon is in the driver's seat when it comes to next-gen deployment: Burstein predicts half of all Verizon users will have fiber within three to four years.

Related:
  1. Verizon May Expand FiOS Deployment Targets
  2. Verizon: We've Neglected DSL
  3. Wednesday Evening Links
  4. Tuesday Evening Links
  5. Monday Evening Links
  6. Owning Your Own Fiber
  7. Verizon Promises FiOS To All Of DC In Ten Years
  8. Scott Cleland: Google Using 21x The Bandwidth They Pay For
Forums » Fear the Fios
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Post a:
Zyniker
Zyniker
Premium
join:2004-12-25
Ann Arbor, MI


edit:
July 6th, @01:43PM

...

If only I weren't in SBC territory...
Yes, I'm just waiting for their response to this whole thing...

Anyway, hopefully I will get the Comcast speeds...even though they have no direct competition from Fios in my area...
--
Join the Theuth.com Distributed Computing Team!
»distributed.theuth.com/deep_thought.htm

mig
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-26
Anytown, USA
clubs:

Re: ...

Well I'm in the SBC territory and have been on the old grandfathered plan (6000/608)for almost 18 months. When I was able to get it I was happier than a pig in mud as not many others had that kind of speed.

Now, everyday it seems, here on BBR, all I read is what new ISP is raising their speeds, Bell South, Comcast, Cox, and Verizon. All I see from SBC is their lowering of prices on lower tiers, and for new customers only. Looks like a plan to run the smaller ISP's out of business, build up their market share before they worry about cable moving in on VoIP and taking these customers.

In the meantime, what about a speed increase for us loyal SBC customers, or maybe even letting the old customers re-rate to the new prices being offered to new customers. SBC is so tight lipped about any developments that they may be offering, makes me wish I lived in Verizon territory! Oh but then I forgot, we've got Lightspeed coming, just hang on for a couple of more years.

Oops, this was supposed to be about Fios. Sorry about the SBC rant.
subman87
Another day in the Brentwood

join:2000-11-24
Harrison, NY

Re: ...


My parents are in SBC territory in southwest CT, funny thing is Verizon is installing FIOS less than 2 miles from there
house. Only thing is the boundary line between SBC & Verizon
is the Mianus River, unfortunately my parents house is east of the river, which put's them in SBC coverage. Talk about being
so close yet so far.
Primis1

join:2005-06-13
Coldwater, MI

To be fair, I'm an SBC user and I could care less about the download speeds cable users are joygasming over, blissfully unaware they'll never come close to hitting the advertised speeds anyways and they likely won't even notice an increase due to congestion.

Give me improved upload, or give me lower prices. The former's not likely from SBC (or anyone else for that matter)... so can I be happy with the latter? You betcha'... I'll merrily keep my current package and lower my rate...

Does that mean FIOS sucks? No. FIOS is undoubtedly a worthy consideration and option... to the couple ten-thousand that qualify for it and will in the next year. It's a pipedream to the other 99.5% of the population though, so why get all worked up over it?

Besides... you could easily still live in an area with no DSL or cable options at all... which people forget about.

LinuxJunkie

join:2005-01-19
Cyberspace

Re: ...

quote:
blissfully unaware they'll never come close to hitting the advertised speeds
Comcast "promises" me 4000/384 and this is what I get:
Download Speed: 4114 kbps (514.3 KB/sec transfer rate)
Upload Speed: 359 kbps (44.9 KB/sec transfer rate)

Close enough for me.

Unlucky444

@frb.org

Re: ...

Consider yourself VERY lucky, I don't get anywhere near that from Comca$t.

Netbum

join:2002-04-08
Oakley, CA

Well said...
And,the prices for Fiber still look too high.
Didn't know it was that high.
Very disappointing.
Ive been saying,the magic number IMHO is $30.00 for mass appeal broadband,no matter how fast it is.
mglunt

join:2001-09-10
Fredericksburg, VA
·Verizon FIOS
·VoicePulse



Just what you would expect from Cable companies.

Verizon rolls in with 15/2 connections on rock solid fiber lines. Cable can't touch it, but make up some 15-16Mbps number they KNOW they can't deliver to 95% of their customers.

They won't lower prices though... so their customers are paying the same or more for the 5/256 lines they offer.

I remember when Verizon dropped their DSL price from $60 to $30. I can't remember the last time a major cable company dropped their prices even $5. They are much more content increasing the imaginary service levels that fool 90% of the people.
brammerv1

join:2003-04-24
Marion, OH

Re: ...

Actually, Adelphia not only dropped my (our) prices from $54.95 to #43.95 a month (non-cable customer and is a permanent price) and they also bumped our speeds just short of two-fold. Can't beat that and I am quite happy. Very reliable, fair prices, aggressive bandwidth, and good customer service. Not trying to be a fan-boy or anything, just stating the facts. (I hope TW doesn't mess with our area when they take over.... Marion, Ohio).
--
Desperate4BroadbandMarion, Ohio
mglunt

join:2001-09-10
Fredericksburg, VA

Re: ...

Hmm..

Did you call in for this, or was it automatic? My last bill still had the $55 a month non cable TV rate on it.
mglunt

join:2001-09-10
Fredericksburg, VA

Re: ...

Just called, and they didn't see anything about the reduced rates.
nerdboy789

join:2004-06-07
Rigby, ID

I'd love it if VZ would come compete in the West out here all we have is Qwest, and although they are offering those faster tiers, it's not available in my area and they're being slower than molasses in January deploying .

sdfgjr

@dynamic.cov

Re: Qwest

I know what you mean. My only broadband options here in the west are Qwest + ISP, Covad + ISP, Cox or Comcast. That means a relatively high price of $40 - $60 for DSL and $50 - $70 for cable. I wish Verizon would give me fiber for $40. I would take it in a heartbeat. For the same price I'm stuck with 1500/128 kbps DSL. If my telephone lines were better and shorter, Qwest you here that, I could get 3000/384 kbps for the same or just a little more money.

lfor



Re: Qwest

Qwest Choice DSL Premier with MSN® Premium 3-5 Mbps download/896 Kbps upload. $29.99 a month for the first 2 months ($34.99 a month without a qualifying home phone package). Thereafter, $49.99 a month ($54.99 a month without a qualifying home phone package).

Qwest Choice DSL Deluxe with Internet Prime 1.5 Mbps downstream/896 Kbps upstream connection. $29.99 a month for the first two months, with a qualifying local phone package.(After two months, pay just $47.99 a month with a qualifying business phone package, $52.99 without.)

»www.qwest.com/residential/intern···ing.html

Yaco
Yaco
Premium
join:2001-10-13
Allendale, NJ
I feel bad I'm getting wired in 6 days. 15/2 plan. Same price for my OOL 9500/900 . L guess I'm just spoiled
--
I don't feel Tardywww.gwbmcfund.org

Khoolguy

@verizon.com

Well their competition is with SBC. SBC is following Verizon closely since SBC's president in Dallas already has FIOS (Verizon) in his ranch. Who was so impressed by the technology that he decided to pursue seriously same technology for SBC to compete with Cable monsters. Gooo FIOS

ddecjc

join:2003-03-13
Kingsport, TN

edit:
July 6th, @01:46PM

Wouldn't It Be Nice...

Sure wish I could get it in Kingsport, TN. My fastest option is 3000/256 from Charter (which is what I currently have).

FightingBlue

@direcpc.com

Re: Wouldn't It Be Nice...

Oh, boo hoo. You can ONLY get 3 Mbits. How do you survive. Try using dialup or satellite for awhile, like the rest of us who aren't as lucky. You'll find that you really aren't the deprived one.

No offense intended, but I get sick of so many people complaining that they only get 1.5 Mbit DSL, or 3 Mbit cable. There are those of us for whom such connections are unattainable dreams.
Eric Martin

join:2005-06-19
66308

30 megabits for $200 a month !!! OH JOY !

What a great deal !

Unless you realize that fiber can carry gigabits and even a terabit.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_fiber

»www.scienceblog.com/community/ol···699.html

Orwell1984

@fdn.com

Re: 30 megabits for $200 a month !!! OH JOY !

$200 is a lot, but it is also for speeds that the competition can't offer at all.

oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA
What other provider supplies residental 30Mb service in the US for $200/mo?

bokamba
Chengdu Rocks
Premium
join:2002-04-05
Falls Church, VA
Calm down, it's coming.
HawkI911

join:2002-04-08
San Antonio, TX

Great!!

A little competition never hurt anyone.

Now the next major hurdle is getting the cellphone rackets to start lowering their prices. Hopefully VoIP over WWAN will force them to start taking alternatives to cell phones seriously.
ossito16

join:2004-07-31
Whiting, IN

upload speed

I don't understand why the upload speeds aren't keeping up with the download speeds. I would pay $50 for 5Mbps/5Mbps.
DMS1

join:2005-04-06
Carrollton, TX

Re: upload speed

said by ossito16 See Profile:

I don't understand why the upload speeds aren't keeping up with the download speeds. I would pay $50 for 5Mbps/5Mbps.
One technical reason is that the B-PON technology that FIOS uses provides 622Mbps downstream, but only 155Mbps upstream, per 32 users. Future standards will increase these numbers, but the available upstream speed will always be less than the downstream speed.

One commercial reason is that ISPs have to pay for their connections to the Internet and their cost planning has to make an assumption about usage. Typically, they assume normal 'casual personal usage' in which upstream traffic is limited. If they chose to offer faster upload speeds then it is a reasonable guess that the people opting for these packages would not fit the standard user profile and would end up costing Verizon more money in terms of traffic to and from the Internet. After all, if they offered a $50 5/5 package, how many small businesses would find a way to use this rather than spend many times more on a T1 line?
bbenso1

join:2004-11-28
Baltimore, MD

Here we go again with people wanting their ISP to provide them with symmetrical >T-1 level speeds that are always up and always provide full bandwidth. You can have 6Mbps/6Mbps speeds right now, but you'll need to get 4 bonded T-1's pulled to your house. Any idea what the cost is for that? It's well beyond $50/month. Even considering bulk bandwidth discounts for larger ISP's how can anyone expect them to turn a profit when they're providing to you at $50/month what costs them $hundreds/month? The only way to do that is to massively oversubscribe their lines (which they do now). That works reasonably well for download speeds because of the nature of people's/business' internet usage patterns. But I guarantee that as soon as you see symmetrical speeds on residential lines everyone and their brother will be putting up web/ftp/news servers, hosting torrents, etc. which will result in a LOT of customers using a large portion of their bandwidth 24/7. When that happens oversubscription fails dramatically and half of your customer base is calling support trying to find out why they can't get the speeds that were advertised for their connection.

I'm really not trying to sound like a jerk here, but if you want a symmetrical high-speed connection with guaranteed bandwidth that doesn't have stability problems get a T pulled to your house.
Eek2121

join:2002-10-12
Blairstown, NJ

Re: upload speed

Uh, except it's the telco's that come up with this pricing. They pay far less then what they charge you or any business.

Shadow01

join:2003-10-24
Wasteland

Re: upload speed

Not that I don't believe everything that is on the internet, but do you have proof of this high mark up or you just bashing? I like high quality and low price just like most people, but I know that DSL is a "best effort" service and that is what I'm paying for. If you expect more then pay more for it.
Eek2121

join:2002-10-12
Blairstown, NJ

Re: upload speed

Want your proof? Go purchase a T1, who do you buy it from? You may go through a 3rd party, but they lease their lines from you guessed it...the telco. Are you saying it actually costs money to send a small electric current down a copper line, or a beam of light down a fiber line? Yeah, it might cost 10-20 bucks a month on electricity (Large corporations get HUGE electrical discounts). Other then that, the telcos charge what the market will bear. Because the telco itself pays nothing for the line, they don't incur the costs of normal ISPs.
Eek2121

join:2002-10-12
Blairstown, NJ
oh and on a further note, you'll notice verizon is NOT oversubscribing at all. This is rather interesting. Each user has a 20/5 meg slot of bandwidth for the most part. (Do the math.)

staticx57

join:2002-01-24
Toms River, NJ
clubs:

Comcast still has to fix my area..

While i do get good speeds ~5mbit, comcast still needs to fix it. But I do welcome the speed upgrade.

fegul
Premium
join:2004-08-23
united state

Now cable execs need to clean up the crap...

Verizon may be scaring the crap out of cable execs, but the cable execs still have not changed their diapers. They need to act quickly to keep a hold on their current customers and give them a reason to stay when the Verizon trucks roll into the neighborhood.
--
|Networking Help|My Blog|

guitarzan
Premium
join:2004-05-04
Skytop, PA
·epix

Re: Now cable execs need to clean up the crap...

Looks as if the cable execs know it's much deeper than their diapers,more like in it up to their necks.When in response all they pledge to offer,in addition to oversold nodes will be the same speed as they currently have.

Which amounts to a nifty PR ploy,It's the same gift different wrappings.

Cable maybe could have beat Verizon to the punch.Because they *already got fiber to the node*.Cable made the decesion to sit on their hands doing nothing. (F, fios what we offer is good enough.We makin' tons-o-cash.Don't like it screw ya go get dsl),they knew fios would be deployed~sometime in the future~ now suddenly the sky is falling.

That rumble the Exec's hear now is not the Verizon trucks rolling by,It's the sound of former customers.
Asmodeus

join:2004-05-26
Spring Valley, CA

left out in the cold out west...

verizon has no plans to come to southern california and if they are then i still won't see it for 2 years or more... all that does is leave cox in the drivers seat and shill out more money for their less than stable cable...

Bill
Light Up The Halo
Premium,VIP
join:2001-12-09
clubs:

Re: left out in the cold out west...

People have already had FIOS installed and running for months in certain Southern California areas.

TheSaint

join:2002-01-25
Atascadero, CA
clubs:
·Charter Pipeline
·Comcast

Re: left out in the cold out west...

I'm on the Central Coast of California, an area not marked for FIOS deployment. SBC has lowered their prices a little bit lately, but it hasn't forced Charter to up their speed and/or come in with a price reduction. As mentioned in the article, these deployments will only happen in areas that will give these so-called worried cable execs a little sweat. Currently they have no reason to do so here on the Central Coast.
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. --- Edmund Burke
Kill your TV, then Internet Explorer: »www.mozilla.org

aztecnology
The Autumn wind is a Raider

join:2003-02-12
Murrieta, CA

said by Asmodeus See Profile:

verizon has no plans to come to southern california...
How long have you been in your cave? Some of the lucky people in socal have been on fios since the end of last year...
You are in SBC territory anyway, so unless you move you'll have to wait for SBC's project lightspeed...
--
.:|:.Tell a man there are 300 billion stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch it to be sure. .:|:.
Asmodeus

join:2004-05-26
Spring Valley, CA

Re: left out in the cold out west...

said by aztecnology See Profile:

said by Asmodeus See Profile:

verizon has no plans to come to southern california...
How long have you been in your cave? Some of the lucky people in socal have been on fios since the end of last year...
You are in SBC territory anyway, so unless you move you'll have to wait for SBC's project lightspeed...
i'm in san diego and i'm stuck with cox because i despise sbc more than i do cox... when i meant so. cal. i was being to vague...

oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA

No way...return the money...then get credit

They'll get full credit when they return the BILLIONS they sole from Pennsylvania taxpayers!

Jovi

join:2000-02-24
Mount Joy, PA

Re: No way...return the money...then get credit

Agreed! We should be the first state for major fios rollouts. $4 billion ought to be able to do almost all the major cities. But i sit and wait, annoyed at the fact that I am 200 line feet from even 3mb. Fios, Fios were are thou Fios?
--
OutKast Clan

guitarzan
Premium
join:2004-05-04
Skytop, PA
·epix

said by oliphant See Profile:

They'll get full credit when they return the BILLIONS they sole from Pennsylvania taxpayers!
Verizon didn't steal it as much,they were allowed to squirm out of the deal they had,because of dumb lawmakers.As long as fios deployments are a roger that.Pa will get it sooner,oops I mean later.I have no problem with that.It's beyond my control,otherwise I'd be rolling in fios.Just roll the damn fios everywhere already.

EnzonE

join:2000-03-23
Indiana, PA
·Comcast

Yes I haven't been too fond of them ever since that happened. They sure knew how to play our lawmakers. Kind of makes you wonder where else they're ripping off us in; wireless?
--
Verizon 1.5M/384k @ 17,047 feet from CO.Activated June 13 2001.Upgraded March 30 2005.
haplo2112

join:2003-05-12
Charlton, MA

If only Verizon would stop cherry picking.

When looking at the areas of deployment in MA its painfully obvious that they are cherry picking the communities to deploy FIOS into. There strat is great for scaring Comcast, but does nothing for Charter. If they were smart they would go after the communities served by Charter Cable. Thoses are the people screaming for something better and willomg to pay for it.

See 6 replies to this post

SpeedMertisMarketsha



Speed is GOOD

Yeah, companies like cablevision can't afford to wait beyond 2006, because 50-100% of their covered territories will be wired for FIOS by that time! They appear (due to the recent press release to be jettisoning DOCSIS altogether in favor of ultra-high speed 50/50 megabit service, cableable to 100mbits if they cut down those coax lines and redeploy 2-5g coax not 1.1g coax currently on the poles)!

Now verizon's current deployment is in no threat of real competition until that happens for real, and people LIKE IT! BUT, the current architecture of 32 users sharing that 155mbit upstream pipe will have to be upgraded with either NEW ONT's or multiple fibers supporting the 'local node boxes' on the poles, most likely the first choice is better to upgrade to gigabit ONT rather than running more fiber (much more expensive and unnecessary). Verizon gets 10-100x(MINIMUM) the bandwidth with new ONT's-- so they already thought about that possibility and built scale into the system.
Now, wouldn't your mouth water at 100/100megabits internet access?!?!? Yummy. Just THINK of all those bittorrents...
salan

join:2004-10-04
Canada

Re: Speed is GOOD

i only wish us Canadians could get these speeds. Our max is 5mbps with Rogers in residential areas. Sure you could get fiber and 10mbps... but thats if you go up North in 1 man towns..

YousStUpId

@comcast.net

I thought April Fools day only came once!

Hahhhhhh..... The Verizon Stooges cant deliver DSL to 70% of their own customers! And FIOS,at current levels of deployment,is going to take at least forty years! I expext this is why all the cable companies are breaking their necks lowering prices and adding spiffs like FREE NEWSSERVERS!

Hmmm...What will the Verizon Network super midgets think up next?

TheSaint

join:2002-01-25
Atascadero, CA
clubs:

Re: I thought April Fools day only came once!

When are we going to turn off posting for unregistered users? :P

Blasterbator
Sent By Grocery Clerks

join:2001-02-20
Jackson, MS

Re: I thought April Fools day only came once!


When are we going to turn off posting for unregistered users? :P


I agree, charity for the retarded is... well, err... retarded!

TheMadSwede
Premium
join:2001-01-30
Holland, MI

Geek Christmas?

Whatever. At least Santa comes once a year.

Who knows when my neighborhood..err...town...err...state will get fibered up.
--
home
rextilleon

join:2003-12-28
Pleasantville, NY

Re: Geek Christmas?

Not to denigrate fiber--because I am a FIOS customer and love it---But don't get too excited. You will find that performance is often predicted open server size and traffic. What I am learning is that there is a lot of underpowered hardware out there. I would go as far as saying that I don't see major differences between my former 8,ooo kpbs/750kbps and my 15kbps/2000 Fios. My Fios consistently hits these numbers but you wouldn't know it as you wait for websites to load.

KrazyDawg

join:2001-02-07
Vallejo, CA
clubs:

Re: Geek Christmas?

said by rextilleon See Profile:

Not to denigrate fiber--because I am a FIOS customer and love it---But don't get too excited. You will find that performance is often predicted open server size and traffic. What I am learning is that there is a lot of underpowered hardware out there. I would go as far as saying that I don't see major differences between my former 8,ooo kpbs/750kbps and my 15kbps/2000 Fios. My Fios consistently hits these numbers but you wouldn't know it as you wait for websites to load.
People are still going to be excited. It's like having a Ferrari only you can't drive beyond the speed limit (legally) and FIOS doesn't look as pretty.

kyler13

@northgrum.com

Even the early days of cable at 1.5Mbps will probably not seem much different from what FIOS offers thanks to slow servers and enough routing to confuse mapquest. But it's the upload speed that offers the bigger attraction. 2Mbps vs. 384kbps. I don't upload alot (on cable), but when I do, it's painful, so FIOS is attractive from that aspect. And from what I can tell, I'll get more for less since Verizon is listing 5M/2Mbps service as low as $34.95. Our neighborhood in MD is slated for laying down fiber to premise according to the flyer left on our door last week. Maybe this time next year? One can hope.

bigdaddy17

join:2003-05-08
Miami, FL

left cold in the south!

Who says it doesnt get cold in the south? I have. I know this might be off the topic but BellSouth STILL hasnt upgraded me to their "Xtreme" tier and I wouldnt call it xtreme compared to what these cable companies are offering. Right now, BellSouth continues to leave their loyal IFITL customers out in the cold and Im getting tired of it. I'd love to get anywhere 3mbps or above from them for a good price but likely its not going to happen any time soon.

Need BB

join:2001-12-21
Westwood, MA

Re: left cold in the south!

Well I preordered Fios and it is getting installed next Thursday. Next Friday I am canceling my Earthlink Cable (comcast) which I have had since the day it came to town four years ago and since then has worked flawlessly.
--
Hacking the D-link 900+ at:»home.earthlink.net/~mlampie/Powe···00+.html

xdeadhead
220, 221, Whatever It Takes.
Premium
join:2000-11-08
Mechanicsburg, PA

spools of orange fiber optic cable

actually those spools of orange aren't the fiber optic cable at all, but rather the conduit it goes into.

RadioDoc
Sortofadog
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
Chicago, IL

Re: spools of orange fiber optic cable

Shhh...don't confuse them with facts. It makes them mad...

I was about to post the same thing
awaltech

join:2003-05-05
Hemet, CA

Re: spools of orange fiber optic cable

True, true, just empty duct. Did two fios installs today, unplugged ethernet from two cable modems. Happens quite a bit.
King75
King Of All And Nothing
Premium
join:2004-07-31
Stevensville, MD
clubs:

As a Verizon employee

Verizon: Scaring the crap out of cable execs since 2004

That made me laugh so hard.
Forums » Fear the Fios


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