 Samwoo
join:2002-02-15
Rancho Palos Verdes, CA | And the costs come to? "or a tenth the install price of a fiber line"
bpl was supposed to be a cheap solution (on paper), but it was later determined that power lines suked...
I wonder if actual implementation will cost that much. | |
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 | 
DSLucky
Premium
join:2002-04-23
Maud, OK
clubs: | Re: And the costs come to? I guess it will be like SBC DSL, No naked Broadband. You gotta have their Natural Gas service to have broadband...Leaves us w/total electric homes or propane out in the cold. heh!
John | |
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| | AquaBlaze
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Encino, CA
| Re: And the costs come to? said by DSLucky  :Leaves us w/total electric homes or propane out in the cold. heh! Well, maybe you can fill up your broadband every month or so with the propane?  | |
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DSLucky
Premium
join:2002-04-23
Maud, OK
clubs: | Re: And the costs come to? When your cousin is hot, but your fingers are not..........PROPANE!
Pinkert and Bowden... | |
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parasonic
I Am Not A Bot
join:2002-03-29
Atlanta, GA
clubs:
| Re: And the costs come to? said by DSLucky :When your cousin is hot, but your fingers are not..........PROPANE! Pinkert and Bowden... Propane != methane | |
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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN | Well duh. Any one could tell you that when they shut off the valve, it will severe the network cable.  | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
| said by Samwoo :bpl was supposed to be a cheap solution (on paper), but it was later determined that power lines suked... At least you will still be able to get help if you use your amateur radio
--
Hey Fast Eddie... you're next! | |
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bradt
join:2002-01-10
Saint Paul, MN
| No way... I just checked the calender and it isn't April 1.
This just HAS to be a joke. With all the different connections and distribution nodes for natural gas even if this could work you would end up with dial-up bandwitdh.
Plus the danger of inserting whatever endpoint you would need at the customer premise would be astronomical. We just had a building blow up because of faulty gas connections up here in Minnesota, they then discovered that the whole block is connected with faulty connections and needs to be replaced. I just don't see any municipality giving a licence to any hair-brained scheme like this.
I wonder if they also could sell me the Brooklyn bridge....
Brad | |
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| 
sht torrent
@verizon.net
 from:
Paladin
dadkins
| Re: No way... quote:
This just HAS to be a joke. With all the different connections and distribution nodes for natural gas even if this could work you would end up with dial-up bandwitdh.
No, but this is.
Hey, why not broadband-over-sewer-lines? Then we could use ShitTorrent to "swap files" with our neighbors. I'd love to see the RIAA have to wade through that stuff... | |
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| | bradt
join:2002-01-10
Saint Paul, MN
| Re: No way... said by sht torrent: quote:
This just HAS to be a joke. With all the different connections and distribution nodes for natural gas even if this could work you would end up with dial-up bandwitdh.
No, but this is. Hey, why not broadband-over-sewer-lines? Then we could use ShitTorrent to "swap files" with our neighbors. I'd love to see the RIAA have to wade through that stuff... That's one file-sharing system I'll be avoiding, thank you.
Brad | |
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dslwanter
Broadband blackhole no more
Premium
join:2002-12-16
Lowellville, OH | Cool. I was online, I lit a cigarette, and BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM. Sorry, couldn't resist it. | |
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DaneJasper
Sonic.Net
Premium,VIP
join:2001-08-20
Santa Rosa, CA
clubs: | It's a joke, people. You can't transmit a signal via gas. What're you going to do, make the gas wiggle in the pipe? | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
| Re: It's a joke, people.
Better yet... its wireless! |
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| john1290
join:2003-12-06
Reynoldsburg, OH
| said by DaneJasper :You can't transmit a signal via gas. What're you going to do, make the gas wiggle in the pipe? They're not using gas, they're using the iron PIPE. | |
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| | jimbo2150
join:2004-05-10
Youngstown, OH
 ·Dreamhost
 ·Armstrong Zoom In..
| Re: It's a joke, people. said by john1290 :said by DaneJasper :You can't transmit a signal via gas. What're you going to do, make the gas wiggle in the pipe? They're not using gas, they're using the iron PIPE. I would say they are using the gas, since they said metal or plastic, the signal could still get through. They also said that the gas has be be able to flow to the house (not completely cut-off by a valve) to work properly. So my guess is they are sending a type of 'electronic wave' through the gas to get there.
In short, if you get your gas shut off (not paying the bills?), your internet is shut off as well.
--
- "Techie" Jim | |
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| | dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
 ·Verizon Online DSL
edit:
June 13th, @04:49PM
| said by john1290 :said by DaneJasper :You can't transmit a signal via gas. What're you going to do, make the gas wiggle in the pipe? They're not using gas, they're using the iron PIPE. If you read what they say, it's obviously not the pipe, and it's obviously wireless. I'm no radio engineer, but it sounds like the pipe acts as a waveguide.
Equally obviously, the gas is not essential to the wireless propagation, but nevertheless the signal does travel through the gas.
--
back from the shadows again... | |
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Fatal vector
@aol.com | Re: It's a joke, people.
It's what is known in radio as a Waveguide. Mostly used at microwave frequencies. | |
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| | | jimbo2150
join:2004-05-10
Youngstown, OH
·Dreamhost
·Armstrong Zoom In..
| Reading their FAQ it says that metal or plastic pipe can be used, and that the signal can get through as long as the gas is not cut off (completely) by a valve. This would suggest that they are sending the signal 'through' the gas itself and using the pipe mearely as a containment vessel so that the signal does not leak out (like light bouncing though a fiber line).
--
- "Techie" Jim | |
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| bbenso1
join:2004-11-28
Baltimore, MD
| said by DaneJasper :You can't transmit a signal via gas. Really? Then how exactly do WiFi and WiMax work? They definitely broadcast a signal and that signal travels through air. Last time I checked, air was a gas. | |
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| | dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: It's a joke, people. said by bbenso1 :said by DaneJasper :You can't transmit a signal via gas. Really? Then how exactly do WiFi and WiMax work? They definitely broadcast a signal and that signal travels through air. Last time I checked, air was a gas. Don't be silly. The signal is a disturbance in the luminiferous ether. Every 19th-century physicist knows that.
--
back from the shadows again... | |
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| | john1290
join:2003-12-06
Reynoldsburg, OH
| said by bbenso1 :said by DaneJasper :You can't transmit a signal via gas. Really? Then how exactly do WiFi and WiMax work? They definitely broadcast a signal and that signal travels through air. Last time I checked, air was a gas. You don't have to have gas (air) to transmit signals. Ever here of these things called satellites? Mars rover? Hubble?
My original point was, after reading the companie's vague press release, that they would use something like those home networking AC plugs that make use of in-house electrical wiring to network at 1Mbps. Maybe I'm missing the boat but I don't think they're going to transmit using gas as a medium but rather the pipes going to your house and not what's IN the pipes. | |
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| | | bbenso1
join:2004-11-28
Baltimore, MD
| Re: It's a joke, people. said by john1290 :said by bbenso1 :said by DaneJasper :You can't transmit a signal via gas. Really? Then how exactly do WiFi and WiMax work? They definitely broadcast a signal and that signal travels through air. Last time I checked, air was a gas. You don't have to have gas (air) to transmit signals. Ever here of these things called satellites? Mars rover? Hubble? Yeah, I know you don't NEED gas to transmit a signal, but the post I was responding to said that you CAN'T transmit a signal through gas. I was simply trying to point out that, while gas isn't necessary, you can, in fact, transmit a signal through gas and it's done every day. | |
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| AJ023
join:2001-12-25
Forest Hills, NY
edit:
June 13th, @02:52PM
| DaneJasper: Its not a joke, however here are the issues:
UltraWideBand currently has a limited range as provided by the FCC for wireless transmission. As of today, if Broadband in Gas were to be accomplished, you would need an Ultrawideband transmitter every 30 feet under the road by the gas line itself. UWB was approved for wireless for SHORT Range transmissions. Now, if the FCC would approve increased range exclusive to broadband in gas, there could be less transmitters needed and less road ripups required. Assuming roadripups every 30 feet, the cost would be still be less than rolling out fiber since there would be no cost of fiber cables nor splicing and devices will be low cost.
According to Nethercomm "Broadband-in-Gas delivers unmatched levels of connectivity by making use of Ultra Wideband technology to wirelessly broadcast information in a way that is both safe and reliable by using the private spectrum isolated within natural gas pipelines."
Since they use "private spectrum", and since UWB by nature is NOT private spectrum since you are using pulses over all the frequency bands, testing would need to be done to see if there is any signal leakage outside and to what maximum poweroutput you can put in the gas line. Thorough testing would need to be done with wireless signals around a gas line using the various gas line materials in place. Newer gas lines are not made of metal, but I would gather a PVC or other composite material. So there are all sorts of complications in the mix.
Could such potentially be doable? Its definitely worth investigating because the natural gas line is yet another pipe that is in the home that travels all over. We already have testing of Powerline Broadband. And now the gas companies also will be able to experiment with their OWN version of broadband.
Between Powerline Broadband and Broadband in Gas technology, Broadband in Gas is more plausible because it is essentially for all practical purposes wireless Ultrawideband but just confined to the area of the natural gas line so you have a consistent path.
The Broadband in Gas senario allows for the transmission path that one would NOT be able to get with the regular airwaves and also because its more isolated, it may be able to get provisions for more range as well.
| |
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sam800
@206.3.x.x | its possible using gas to transmit data might be too far fetched (or not possible today)
maybe they will piggyback a cable over the pipeline itself. | |
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| 
pianotech
Pianotech
Premium
join:2002-12-30
New Castle, PA | Re: its possible My ex-wife could produce enough methane to put FIOS to shame.
--
Original music, no drm | |
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markopoleo
join:2003-04-02
Bonne Terre, MO
·Charter Pipeline
| Fiber in gas line sure, but wireless? right.. Fiber would be the better way to deliver broadband through a gas line. Wireless is not even fessible.
As for the "last mile" claim thats kinda far fetched. Seeing most gas customers are still in city/urban areas. Which they can get cable..
Most rural areas use propane tanks | |
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|
DaneJasper
Sonic.Net
Premium,VIP
join:2001-08-20
Santa Rosa, CA
clubs:
| Re: Fiber in gas line sure, but wireless? right.. said by markopoleo :Fiber would be the better way to deliver broadband through a gas line. Wireless is not even fessible. This is how run some fiber now - in sewer lines. It's less expensive than trenching and laying new pipe (I've always wanted to say that!), but is very expensive compared to copper based solutions.
-Dane | |
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| public
join:2002-01-19
Santa Clara, CA
·DSL EXTREME
| said by markopoleo :Fiber would be the better way to deliver broadband through a gas line. Wireless is not even fessible. Actually using the gas pipe as a waveguide is not as ridiculous as BPL. Practically discontinuities in the pipe may make it impractical. | |
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| | markopoleo
join:2003-04-02
Bonne Terre, MO
·Charter Pipeline
| Re: Fiber in gas line sure, but wireless? right.. said by public :said by markopoleo : Actually using the gas pipe as a waveguide is not as ridiculous as BPL. Practically discontinuities in the pipe may make it impractical. It can't be a guide when you have metal/plastic all interconnecting. Add that to fact the pipe going to customers hole depending on new or old is less than 1 inch vs the 3inch they lay in ground. | |
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| 
Tzale
Proud Libertarian Conservative
Premium
join:2004-01-06
NJ, USA
 ·Verizon FIOS
·Optimum Online
| said by markopoleo :Fiber would be the better way to deliver broadband through a gas line. Wireless is not even fessible. As for the "last mile" claim thats kinda far fetched. Seeing most gas customers are still in city/urban areas. Which they can get cable.. Most rural areas use propane tanks I'm so sick and tired of hearing about rural people who want broadband. It is NOT required that every new form of broadband needs to conform to the "rural or no deal" trend I've been seeing on here lately. The truth is rural customers are NOT the majority and NO WHERE near the amount of money generators that suburban customers give to a company. You can have 1 home every 1/4 or more in rural areas while you may have 1,000 homes in that area in a urban area! No wonder they always go to suburban / urban areas first.
-Tzale
--
Hey OOL, throttle this! I'm going to FIOS...Verizon FIOS Forum | |
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| dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by markopoleo :Most rural areas use propane tanks They've got that covered, too.
--
back from the shadows again... | |
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| | jimbo2150
join:2004-05-10
Youngstown, OH
·Dreamhost
·Armstrong Zoom In..
| Re: Fiber in gas line sure, but wireless? right.. said by dave :said by markopoleo :Most rural areas use propane tanks They've got that covered, too. FTTG "Fiber to the Grill"
OR
FTTR "Fiber to the Range"
--
- "Techie" Jim | |
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raye
Premium
join:2000-08-14
Orange, CA | Natural Gas, no thanks I eminate enough of my own
Pfhhht.
Sorry no broadband. But sure does empty a room quickly. Comes in silent killer version. | |
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| 
Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
| Rectuma Wireless For maximum rage of Rectuma Wireless Mr. Methane suggests checking the list below.
Here is a flatulence rating for beans from the highest gas-producing to the least:
1. soybeans
2. pink beans
3. black beans
4. pinto beans
5. small white beans
6. great northern beans
7. baby lima beans
8. chick peas
9. large lima beans
10. black-eyed peas.
--
Low voltage Tech's are wimps, Real tech's use 45 pound filament transformers, plate voltages no less then 2400 volts with at least 10 amp's lighting 8877 triodes...BPL I'm coming to get you. | |
|
clickwir
join:2001-06-21
Dickson City, PA
 ·Vonage
| what about grounding? I don't know about everyone else, but I've been in plenty of houses that use the water and gas pipes as grounding points for the house's electrical system. My bet is that would cause a good bit of interferance with this system.
Would a seperate, dedicated, grounding pipe need to be pounded into the ground to get a good grounding point? | |
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|
See 6 replies to this post |
|
Homebrew1994
Betzwood Basement Brewery
join:2001-11-15
King Of Prussia, PA | Arent Electricity and Flammable Gas a bad mix together? | |
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voyager6868
join:2003-01-29
Waterloo, ON | Broadband in Water? Why not use the water system to transmit it? There are a lot more homes with water than with natural gas.
You read it here first... 50% royalties are payable to me if you want to use this idea. | |
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| MrBentor
join:2003-02-18
Seattle, WA
| Re: Broadband in Water? The density and refractive characteristics of water in the pipe (waveguide) would tend to block or attenuate the signal. If the pipe were empty (vacuum), or filled with a light gas like air, or methane (natural gas) then you can use the metal pipe as a waveguide - radio signal would propagate, bouncing down the inside of the pipe. (Note - in a waveguide the signal doesn't crawl along the metal like electricity would, instead it acts somewhat in the way optical fiber would bouncing along the inside core.
See »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waveguide for some more information. | |
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dadkins
Go For It
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA | But, what if... ... the pilot light on my laptop goes out?  | |
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badd
join:2001-10-04
De Queen, AR | broadband in gas Sounds to me like someone has been sniffing the gas again.
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| BD11goal
join:2004-03-13
Huntington Station, NY | Re: broadband in gas my dad works for keyspan on long island, and the other day when i mentioned something like this he told me he just heard something about them maybe getting into internet access, but thats all he really heard because he doesn't really care about it. | |
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| | 
deheza
join:2004-06-10
Allen, TX | Re: broadband in gas I've seen some heavy duty plastic gas pipe buried in recent years - wonder how that will work.
--
Comcast, Lingo, Nuvio, MutualPhone, SimpleTelecom, Stanaphone, Sixtel, StanaPhone | |
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| | | bradt
join:2002-01-10
Saint Paul, MN
| Re: broadband in gas Exactly.
Just how good of a waveguide is plastic. Not to mention all the valves and size changes.
Not exactly what I'd call a good waveguide.
I think someone is just looking for a new group of venture capitalists to fleece.
Brad | |
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| | | |
FTCXtreme
join:2005-03-14
New Braintree, MA
| How is this possible? Honestly... Data over gas? Also, I hate natural gas, I prefer my oil, for my heat. I do use propane for my stove . I coudl use the propane tank as my LAN. But also, if I rip a big fart is that 2Gbs? | |
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competence
join:2004-11-24
123456 |  Downloading...
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richk_1957
If ..Then..Else
Premium
join:2001-04-11
Minas Tirith
| Questions I went & looked at Nethercom's site and it looks like that are using gas pipes as a waveguide. It's been years since I worked with microwaves, so if some of my comments are off, someone correct me.
First, I think that the physical size of the waveguide was a function of the signal frequency. Now, I'm quite sure that not all of the gas mains are the same size. It stands to reason that the main in the street [that services many people] would be larger than the gas pipe that goes to your house.
Second, all of the waveguide installations have no sharp angles. If a turn was needed it was a very gentle one. Gas pipes have T fittings, 90 degree elbows, etc.
Third, if all other concerns are overcome, it sounds like an expensive thing to set up. You have to set up a transponder at wherever the broadband signal originates and at any user, you have to have 1. shut off the gas service to the residence 2. open the pipe & install the transponder mechanism 3. close & seal the pipes and turn the gas back on. Plumbers who are licensed to work with gas aren't cheap. | |
|
c_giby16
join:2005-06-14
Fairmount, IN
| UWB? The way I last understood, air was less dense than natural gas. So, why not transmit the Ultra Wide Band signal via the air and avoid all the hassle and danger of using gas. It makes since that the waves would flow through a less dense material at a higher speed. An example being WiMax, which I'm expecting will become extremely popular, transmitter on one end, air in the middle, a reciever on the end, not miles of tubing and valves and connections. And even better, its will be able to transfer at faster speeds that BIG. I wonder how many will get fired when this idea becomes a flop. | |
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| jimbo2150
join:2004-05-10
Youngstown, OH
·Dreamhost
·Armstrong Zoom In..
| Re: UWB? Actually, you really don't know what speed will be for BIG yet. There have not been any proven trials that I know of. Just as well, WiMAX does not get the speeds you will hope for. Trials today suggest that you could only get about 7 - 14 mb/s (per household) over a WiMAX network at a distance of about 10 miles I believe. After that the signal gets weeker as well as the speed.
Although it has not been proven yet, it could very well get faster speeds then WiMAX.
Both WiMAX and BIG promised speeds of 100mb/s in the beginning. WiMAX has dropped down to less than 15mb/s already... what will BIG drop to?
--
- "Techie" Jim | |
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Broadband in Gas (BIG) Conference
