Qwest Sues 14 City Utah Fiber ProjectCites 'unfair competition'( old news - 10:59AM Thursday Jun 02 2005) tags: Fiber · municipalDubbed Utopia, 14 Utah cities have bonded together to deploy fiber to homes and businesses. The project offers users 10Mbps fiber connections for $40, with symmetrical 50 and 100Mbps tiers planned for less than a hundred bucks. According to the Deseret News, Qwest is now suing the project for dodging taxes, cutting Qwest lines, endangering the public welfare, and unfair competitive practices. Qwest, unlike the other bells, has no real next-gen network plans, other than running the occasional fiber to developments, then capping it at 1.5Mbps.
Related:- Lafayette Fiber: 10Mbps & Local Intranet
- Utopia Not So Picture Perfect
- Vermont Visionary: Rural Fiber Perfectly Economical
- iProvo Sold To Broadweave For $40 Million
- Broadweave Replacing All iProvo Gateways
- Small Wyoming Town To Be Better Connected Than Many Cities
- Fiber To The Home In Kutztown, PA
- Locals Try To Keep Utopia Afloat
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wifi4milez
In Need Of Garbage Pail Kids 1st Series
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY | Do you hear that? Sounds like a ship going down to me!
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Now THATS superfluous!! | |
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bistro777
Donuts-Is There Anything They Can't Do?
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-07
Englewood, CO
| Re: Do you hear that? Seems to me they ought to focus their attorneys’ efforts on the SEC lawsuits/settlements. But after MCI turned 'em down, I guess their desperate need for cash flow has let them to another takeover target...UTOPIA.
Would you like Nachios with that? | |
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wifi4milez
In Need Of Garbage Pail Kids 1st Series
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| Re: Do you hear that? said by bistro777  :Seems to me they ought to focus their attorneys’ efforts on the SEC lawsuits/settlements. But after MCI turned 'em down, I guess their desperate need for cash flow has let them to another takeover target...UTOPIA. Would you like Nachios with that? If thats their plan wouldnt it make more sense for Qwest to let them finish building the network first?? At least that way they can offer some real fiber based services!! BTW, what the hell is up with Qwest's 1.5M fiber "service"? It looks like The Marketing Moron(new superhero) has struck again!!
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Now THATS superfluous!! | |
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wifi4milez
In Need Of Garbage Pail Kids 1st Series
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| Re: Do you hear that? 
"DUUUHHRRR, I am the marketing guy at Qwest! Why would anyone want more than a 1.5M connection? Lets just spend a few million dollars building a fiber network and then do nothing with it! DUUHHHRRR!! I must be the smartest guy in the world!!!
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Now THATS superfluous!! | |
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Monkeydoo
join:2003-11-19
Angola, IN | Re: Do you hear that? LOL!!!!!!!!
So true though!!:( | |
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bistro777
Donuts-Is There Anything They Can't Do?
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-07
Englewood, CO
| I should have use "begin sarcasm" and "end sarcasm,"  because UTOPIA isn't generating revenues, and Qwest was desperate to buy MCI for the "monthly dollars" it generates.
From today's Denver Post - - -
The SEC alleges that Nacchio and other Qwest officials inflated revenues by $3 billion by portraying one-time sales of capacity on the company's fiber-optic network as recurring revenue.
The government described Qwest under Nacchio as "a culture of fear," with subordinates desperate to meet his demands to hit revenue targets.
The SEC seeks to have the executives repay stock-sale profits and other gains. In Nacchio's case, stock-sale profits alone amounted to more than $176.5 million in the period covered by the SEC's probe.
Things just went from bad to Qworst. | |
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d_l
Barsoom
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV | Re: Do you hear that? Your video never said, "you'll never need more than 3 meg down...". I listened to it twice just to be sure. | |
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cbrigante2
Cubs 20??
Premium
join:2002-11-22
North Aurora, IL
| Re: Do you hear that? Maybe not word for word, but the meaning was the same. He talks of a community that has 3 meg down, and that the tri-city users would never use that.
I'm not sure he really answered the guy's question as well. The gentleman basically told him he was using Comcast because SBC was not able to deliver DSL service. The SBC rep talks about how the SBC package is comparable to Comcast in price. IF you can get the service!
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Why is abbreviate such a long word? | |
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batageek
Slave To The Duopoly
Premium
join:2003-01-25
Batavia, IL
| My point is bascically he's full of it because this was a couple of months before their Project Lightspeed announcement ("we'll bring a 25 meg pipe to your house via fiber and copper), especially considering he's the 5 state network operations president for SBC Midwest.
Flat out - He was lying to the Batavia City Council.
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»www.tricitybroadband.com | |
| | Facekhan
join:2002-05-01
Gaithersburg, MD
| "Unfair Competition"
Def: Business competion in your own industry.
Ant: Healthy Competition
Def: Business competition in any industry but your own.
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FaceKhanCitizen Khan dot com | |
| flushls
join:2004-11-02
Joyce, WA | The only good QWEST is a bankrupt QWEST the sooner that ship sinks the better!!!! | |
| b10010011
Whats a Posting tag?
join:2004-09-07
Bellingham, WA | Below market prices? Qwest is suing because Utopia is selling fiber for below market prices? Hey Qwest a monopoly is NOT a market! | |
| | DSL Oberst
join:2001-11-29 | Re: Below market prices? Ah, but are they cutting Qwest lines? That would be interesting to know. | |
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MarkyD
Premium
join:2002-08-20
Oklahoma City, OK
clubs:
 ·Cox HSI
 ·AT&T FTTP
 ·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: Below market prices? said by DSL Oberst :Ah, but are they cutting Qwest lines? That would be interesting to know. Probably, but that is the cost of any type of construction. That's just the way it goes. | |
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woodward
XMission Broadband
VIP
join:2000-12-28
Salt Lake City, UT
| said by DSL Oberst :Ah, but are they cutting Qwest lines? That would be interesting to know. Yes, there was a fairly major outage last week in the city of Murray (a suburb of Salt Lake City) that took out a large section of the phone service for about a day. Turned out that UTOPIA crews cut the lines. | |
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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Below market prices? The determining factor though is UTOPIA non-descriminantly cutting lines? If they are wacking away at power, CATV, and gas lines, then they should be fine.
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"What gives them the right to come in and do this?" she said. - Lady complaining that she was getting FIOS in her backyard. | |
| | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Below market prices? IF you are cutting lines, you are in the wrong.. period! Accidents DO happen, however, if you aren't getting lines marked before digging, liablilty comes to play.
How many people have read the actual article and not just the paragraph at top?
I agree, Qwest people are idiots in their marketing and how they deply services.. WAY behind the time. However, Qwest seems to have alot of valid complaints against this company. If this service is selling under cost and putting Qwest at a dissadvantage, there are serious reprocussions. | |
| | | | | | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast Formerly ..
| Re: Below market prices? said by fiberguy :IF you are cutting lines, you are in the wrong.. period! Accidents DO happen, however, if you aren't getting lines marked before digging, liablilty comes to play. How many people have read the actual article and not just the paragraph at top? I agree, Qwest people are idiots in their marketing and how they deply services.. WAY behind the time. However, Qwest seems to have alot of valid complaints against this company. If this service is selling under cost and putting Qwest at a dissadvantage, there are serious reprocussions. What is cost for one company is not for another. If I provide it for .25 a gig and they need .37 for a gig then how am I undercutting them ? I am only passing savings to my customers with lower costs. Why should I have to raise my rates because others can't compete ? That does not sound competitive to me.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
| | | | | | Fiber Guy2
join:2003-08-22
Provo, UT
| The story never said they were selling under COST. It claimed they were selling under MARKET PRICE. I think that just moves the market price down.
The line was cut but that happens in any major underground project and the contractor has insurance for that. Qwest construction cuts lines too. The cost of repair is always paid by insurance the contractor has, etc. | |
| | | ashworth
join:2001-10-06
Pittsburgh, PA | I heard that UTOPIA was using their poles and not paying any fees...I guess the court will settle it as usual... | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
| Yet another strike against government run Internet You would think the people running Utopia would have made sure their project got sovereign immunity so that it would be immune from BS lawsuits like these. How much are taxpayers now going to have to fork over to deal with this lawsuit?
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Hey Fast Eddie... you're next! | |
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oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA | Re: Yet another strike against government run Internet There is no sovereign immunity from corporate run state and Federal government.
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Life is good without the headache of Comcrap HSI | |
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cao1964
join:2000-08-09
Danville, PA | In the United States there is no way to have immunity from BS Lawsuits, I think its part of our right. | |
| NetDroid2
join:2004-08-16
Excelsior, MN
| Thats Qwest for You Isn't this what Qwest always does?
Complain about something that is better than what they offer but but do absolutely nothing to improve it.
Actually now that I think about it almost all the big companies fighting the "Monopoly" of fiber and WI-FI do.
But really what DSL provider still offers 256/256 as a broadband choice? Are there any? | |
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Monkeydoo
join:2003-11-19
Angola, IN
| Re: Thats Qwest for You Wow. I mean is this shocking? Who really didn't see this coming.
I find it amazing how they don't take notice of an area, unless somebody else starts doing something good. Seems like now-a-days big companies have more lawyers then anything.
Its so sad how much money a year they spend in just legal battles, in courts, and other shady practices. If they would just put that money to better uses, we wouldn't have to worry about munis trying to provide, because we would all have great service already. | |
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powerhog
Stinkin' up the joint
Premium
join:2000-12-14
Talala, OK
| said by NetDroid2 :But really what DSL provider still offers 256/256 as a broadband choice? Are there any? Here's the DSL offerings from my Telco provider:
Lite
$30.00 Speeds up to 56/64k - dial up replacement.
Basic
$41.95 Speeds up to 128k - up to 4 times faster than normal dial-up.
Standard
$56.95 Speeds up to 256k - up to 8 times faster than normal dial-up.
Premium
$72.55 Speeds up to 512k - up to 17 times faster than normal dial-up.
Lite Installation
$50.00 Fee includes a modem and DSL jack installation.
Basic, Standard, or Premium Installation
$100.00 Fee includes a modem and DSL jack installation
Service Order Charge
$25.00 Fee for downgrading to a slower DSL speed.
Service Order Charge
$50.00 Fee for upgrading to a faster DSL speed.
Modem Maintenance
$3.00/mo. Covers modem malfunction.
This is what you get when you have NO competition and an extremely small ILEC. Still, I wish I was close enough to town to get it.
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Agristar 200/DW6000/G4R-1250H/99W/XP Pro on 3 systems (behind a router). | |
| | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Thats Qwest for You Or maybe they don't have the capitol to invest in their offerings. Don't assume that it's becuase of lack of competition..
If you will remember, these new technologies didn't emerge until all the buy outs and mergers in the late 90s.
I rember being told at my previous company that we were being put up for sale and being bought by Comcast so that we could move forward and offer better technology since they had bigger pockets. My smaller company alone didn't have the capitol resources to invest in these new technologies and deliver them effectively to the consumer.
So, since you mention that they are an EXTREMELY small ILEC, it may simply be lack of funds.
Who is this ILEC by the way? | |
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jhboricua
ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-06
Minneapolis, MN
clubs:
| Re: Thats Qwest for You Hmmm, DSL was around way before the 90's, LEC's just didn't had any incentive to deploy and canibalize their own profits on inferior but expensive broadband solutions (ISDN anyone?).
The only reason DSL was ever deployed was because of the CLEC's like Covad, Northpoint, etc., who after the Telecomm '96 law took advantage. LEC's HAD to deploy because they had no choice, not because they wanted it.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
Jose A. Hernandez * IT Technician * MPLS, Minnesota, USA * My website: Zerochill | |
| | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Thats Qwest for You DSL was invented by a scientist at Bell Labs in 1988. Although DSL had immediate potential, it did not become relevant in the public eye for some time. This was due to many factors, including the limited ability of computers at the time to process information at high speeds, and the relatively undeveloped state of the internet at that time.
DSL internet became more important with the advent of affordable broadband technologies in the late 1990's. Though originally just a laboratory quirk, the advantages of DSL in speed over a second phone line were immediately clear. Consumers and internet service providers rapidly warmed to the idea, and it is now one of the most popular forms of broadband internet access in America.
One of the reasons many companies were unwilling to embrace DSL service at first was because it was far more profitable to lease customers a second phone line to allow them to access the internet. As other broadband technologies became available to consumers, however, interest in DSL grew. Gradually, companies realized that users would be willing to pay premium prices for the advantages that DSL provided over older technologies. (Boy, little did they know)
Want to know one of THE first telephone companies to launch DSL? Qwest, formerly U.S. West. I would harldy say that the born date of DSL in 1988 is WAY before the 90's. | |
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plk
bo may sleep in loft
Premium
join:2002-04-20
Ogden, IA | 256k up/down here for 69.00 a month | |
| ricep5
Premium
join:2000-08-07
Jacksonville, FL
·Comcast Formerly ..
 ·AT&T CallVantage
·AT&T Southeast
| The "Poles" Qwest may own the poles as determined in the original consent decree for the AT&T breakup, however, they are required to share the poles with other utilities (ie: cable) using agreements within each municipality.
SBC tried to kick cable companies off their poles in Illinois by charging an outrageous attachment fee when a Comcast predecessor started offering telephone service. It failed and SBC stopped trying.
The poles as such reside on public right of way and therefore the local government determines their fate, even though a utility may own them outright. What may be bugging Qwest is that UTOPIA got permission to use them and they didn't show up for the hearing for the permits. | |
| | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: The "Poles" said by ricep5 :Qwest may own the poles as determined in the original consent decree for the AT&T breakup, however, they are required to share the poles with other utilities (ie: cable) using agreements within each municipality. Really? I always thought, uh, KNEW, that most poles are actually owned by the power company. This is not to say that telephone doesn't own poles, becuase they do.. so does cable.. very few, but they do.
However, you are right in the rest of your post about access to renting space on the pole. Also, do realize that thre is not unlimited room on a pole. The G.O. 95 codes dictate how much a pole can have on it.
Telco has to stay X amount away from Cable,, cable has to be x amount away from power.. cable has to stay x amount away from other cable.. The lowest line has to be so far off the ground.. A cable or phone drop must be at least 8.5 feet off the lowest point of the ground when running to the house and so on and so on. Same conditions apply to underground services as well. | |
| voyager6868
join:2003-01-29
Waterloo, ON | Time to sell I'd be selling my Qwest stock right about now... Buh bye Qwest. | |
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oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA
| Get over it... Private schools have no problem competing with public schools...
UPS, DHL and FedEx compete with the USPS...
Private hospitals compete with public ones...
Private transportation companies compete with public transit...
And all do just fine (except our local private hospitals that are overrun with illegals who don't pay)....
Fact is there are a number of industries that DIRECTLY compete with government and do just fine.
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Life is good without the headache of Comcrap HSI | |
| | 
Poopsmith
That's Mr. Smith To You.
join:2003-03-12
Boulder, CO | Re: Get over it... "and unfair competitive practices"
I think the word "unfair" can be taken out of the article, and the same point comes across.
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That's Mr. Smith to you | |
| judasrising
join:2004-08-27
| Bone heads I don't get why Qwest has limited fiber and vdsl in certain areas and caps it at 1.5mb. Then they offer voip and charge $30 plus 5 cent long distance. Somebody over there needs to get with it. How can you compete when you make bone head decisions like that. Spend the money on the infrastructure and then set it up so that nobody wants it. | |
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yeti34
RC Onroad racin
join:2001-04-12
Salt Lake City, UT
| All for Fiber broadband!! I live in one of these future city fiber upgrades and I fully welcome it. I dropped Qwest phone service awhile back and have not looked back. I want the faster internet access that Qwest can not provide. Utopia, just hurry up and get it to West Valley City please!!! | |
| knifermcstab
join:2004-03-29
Cleveland, OH | WOW I cant believe this. They cant compete so they try to sue them . wow. just wow. | |
| nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| the solution every employee of Quest, especially executives and their families, should be capped at dialup speeds
every politician that agrees with this or advocates limits on muni broadband should have themselves and all of the constituents in their districts limited to dialup speeds
this would be regardless of what type of access is available to them. Let's see how long it is before they change their minds. | |
| joedish
join:2001-06-11
Fayetteville, GA
| Unfair competition ?? Of course it is unfair. All the taxpayers pay for/subsidize this service. Quest cannot subsidize their offering from the tax base. Now if the ALL the costs of the deployment do not come from any taxpayer funds or bonds I have no issue. As I have said many times, if this makes such good business sense and is a slam dunk for these communities, why don't the leaders quit and start their own business based on this model and not force taypayers (at the point of their freedom) to fund this. That is my basic concern is the forced nature of a government body funding anything. They get to use force to get their funding. Not to even mention the next obvious step is content control based on political whims of a government controlled service. I know many are "desperate" for better and higher speed services, but I for one am tired of my tax money being sent down a rat hole. Give me private company where I can fire them anytime. I think though that I am alone with this opinion. | |
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SRFireside
join:2001-01-19
Houston, TX
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Unfair competition ?? Where do you get your information from? Municipal broadband is paid for by investors and NOT taxpayer money. The only time taxes would fall into if... and only if... the contract with the investors state that if the enterprise does is not able to pay back the investors within a set timeframe (5-10 years normally) then there is an OPTION to use taxpayer money to fit the bill IF such an action is voted on. | |
| | | GhostDoggy
join:2005-05-11
Duluth, GA
| Re: Unfair competition ?? You know this to be true in all cases? I'm a doubting thomas and I doubt this is the case, in all cases. And since you cannot predict the future and I be confident in your prediction, and since there are no rules, bills, or laws to prevent this kind of operation, I doubt it will never happen. | |
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SRFireside
join:2001-01-19
Houston, TX
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Unfair competition ?? It's true in all of the cases so far. Your right though. That doesn't mean someone will come in with a messed up way of doing it later. However I'm sure the Bells and Cablecos will have a heyday with their propaganda machine when that happens. Wow... telling the truth for once. | |
| garner11
join:2004-08-01
Concord, NH
| Qwest Vowed not to Sue! A year ago Qwest was pushing SB66 though the Utah legislature. They hoped that the bill, which made it more difficult to obtain bonds for municipal telecom projects, would kill Utopia and iProvo. During and after the legislative session Qwest vowed that regardless of the outcome, they would not use litigation as a way to foil Utopia or iProvo. We trust the democratic legislative process, they said. Well, SB66 passed with some amendments that softened the impact to Utopia and iProvo. Now Qwest is litigating.
Two years ago, Qwest supported a House bill that was aimed at squelching retail muni-telecom. During the debate, the bill’s sponsors reiterated that the bill was limited in scope and that they would not come back to the table asking for more. The bill passed and a year later they were back with the aforementioned SB66.
Qwest’s spirit of service in action. | |
| | viperlmw
Premium
join:2005-01-25
·Qwest.net
| Re: Qwest Vowed not to Sue! If the issues Qwest raises are legit, such as poaching pole space, violating pole structural integrity, cutting Qwest lines, etc., and the Utopia people won't address these concerns, then litigation may be the only answer. I worked in government for over 20 years, and I know that their attitude can be 'Our way or the highway'. Sometimes the courts have to require government entities to follow laws and regulations, as they seem to think that "since we are the government we can do whatever the f*** we want". I would also agree with a previous post that requiring taxpayer money to subsidize and back the bonds being issued to pay for Utopia is not a good use of the public trust. As for public/private competition, I believe we are in uncharted waters when it comes to telco services, and I am afraid this will come out badly for the taxpayers. Government has a way of screwing up even the simplest tasks. | |
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fiber_man
Things Happen For A Reason
Premium
join:2001-01-27
Port Saint Lucie, FL
| Re: Qwest Vowed not to Sue! Government screwed up back in 1984 by breaking up AT&T. At least they spent money on their infrastructure. They also had a R & D department (Bell Labs) for future deployment. They placed fiber in the ground back in the early 80's that is still working in places.
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GO NOLES!! | |
| | nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| said by garner11 :Qwest’s spirit of service in action. all ILECs are evil | |
| bchoate
join:2004-02-17
Logan, UT | qwest....sigh Utopia *drool* ... I need to move.
Qwest's management needs to be gang-ra... err berated for idiotic business practices. If these dunces would provide a good service we wouldn't need an organization like Utopia. | |
| 
kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY | Qwest can kiss my @ss... ...and I hope they'll end up bankrupted.
Bunch of disgusting @ssholes try to block other developments solely because they don't want to invest a frikkin cent. | |
| 
gheezer
Compooters R Us
Premium
join:2002-12-20
Henrietta, NY
| Am I alone in this? or does ANYONE else think like I do, that it's a very very bad idea for MY Government to be managing my telecommunications and television and entertainment habits?
I mean, if My Government Builds and Runs the network, then they can also DICTATE my behavior on that network. That scares the living $h!t out of me.
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Join the NAVY, see the world....It's mostly water! | |
| |
See 7 replies to this post | |
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
|  What a bunch of emotional posts..
Who are you to say Qwest, or any US entity, can't bring an issue before the court! You aren't the judge and jury here. If it's ruled in Qwest's favor, then what? You going to bask the courts then? when does it stop here?
If you wnt to be upset, I agree,.. Qwest can't run a good marketing plan to pull themselves out of this slump. However, from my experience at least on the DSL side, my servie has worked well with very few interruptions. That's a good thing to say since it's not easy task to keep such a wide area network working 24/7.
What I see here, like every other forum, is really "I hate this company, I hate that company.. they won't give me a gazillion mb d/l speeds.. I want to pay $15.00 a month for it too.." and this is used against any company that makes a peep about anything? Re-read this forum and look again at the original topic, and the posts. How many of them are based on the facts of the issue rather than mis-guided emotion.
What does capped 1.5 spped have to do with a company allegidly cutting their lines? You know that is does cost Qwest money when these lines are cut don't you? There are dmanages.. how well can you run a company and network when your compeditor is cutting your lines all the time? What does this do for Qwest and their image? You will soon be in another forum posting about how many times your service went down in the past month and blame in blindly on qwest and call them liars, theives, and a worthless company even though it's a compeditor who is causing your down time. And what's the result? You people will be the first to run to that compeditor because of these issues.. Now, again, ask yourslf if Qwest has a valid complaint.
Learn the legal system. Everyone has a right to ask a court to consider the aligations. And guess what, sometimes, just SOMETIMES, these people are right!~
Try not injecting pure emotions and unrelated issues into the topics at hand for once... | |
| garner11
join:2004-08-01
Concord, NH
edit:
June 2nd, @06:04PM
| Government has a place in providing infrastructure First off, let me correct myself. Qwest's first Utopia/iProvo attack was in 2001 with HB149. Latter they tried to stop it at the city level, and when they were unsuccessfull, they went back to the legislature in 2004. A more detailed report on the legislation, and Qwest promises can be found at: http://www.telecomchoices.org/left_cell/brady.3.10.04.htm.
Second, building a McDonald's to "create" business, and providing infrastructue to create business are not comparable. Nice try, but I think most intelligent people can see through that. You may still argue that municipal broadband doesn't have a place, but to argue that it is the same as building a McDonald's is ignorant at best.
There are many examples of municipal infrastructure: power, water, sewage, roads, airports, and seaports just to name a few. Furthermore both Utopia and iProvo are wholesale infrustructure providers... much like an airport. Every airline doesn't build there own airport. The city builds the airport and the airlines compete in providing service.
I consider myself, as many Utahns do, fiscally conservative. Utah is arguably the reddest state in nation, and Provo is one of the most conservative cities in America, yet there is a grassroots effort to build these networks. To me, that says, that you can support small government and still support government built infrastructure. The only thing I hate worse than big government is large (un)regulated monopolies. Public risk, private profits.
We may disagree about municipal broadband, but let's keep the debate intellectually honest. | |
| | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Government has a place in providing infrastructure said by garner11 :Second, building a McDonald's to "create" business, and providing infrastructue to create business are not comparable. Nice try, but I think most intelligent people can see through that. You may still argue that municipal broadband doesn't have a place, but to argue that it is the same as building a McDonald's is ignorant at best. Are you really that narrowminded?
My point was simple, governments job, in the private sector, is to create an environment for business to flourish. Government's job is not to directly compete with the private sector. So my BBR level example was that government doesn't build and run business, they attract it. In the government run Muni world, if it eliminates the private sector, then you also eliminate the tax revenue that comes with it. Government makes no wealth, it redistributes it. You should know this being a conservative.
There are many examples of municipal infrastructure: power, water, sewage, roads, airports, and seaports just to name a few. Yup! Thanks for making my point even better... Those are all "infrustructure." Can you name any Phone companies? TV Cable Companies? etc? Even then, though power companies do exist, they are few at best and have thier places. To this date, broadband has not been classified or defined by the FCC as a necessity. We need water, we need sewage, roads, airports, etc. Though the nation is advancing on the use of broadband, it has yet to be deemed more than an information service, not a public utility.
...yet there is a grassroots effort to build these networks. To me, that says, that you can support small government and still support government built infrastructure. The only thing I hate worse than big government is large (un)regulated monopolies. Public risk, private profits.
Don't get me started on this. Conservatives trying to get government involved in the private sector? A conservative? You just make my argument that conservatives are SELECTIVISTS in policy and it's the "what's best for me and my side" attitude. Getting government involved in the private sector where there is already operating entities smells like the Democrat way of 'have government do it all.' So don't start. There is nothing more I like than to debate a conservative.
We may disagree about municipal broadband, but let's keep the debate intellectually honest.
I have been, when are you going to start. | |
| | | secnet
join:2005-04-13
Ludington, MI
| Re: Government has a place in providing infrastruc Technically roads, airports, and the like are NOT necessities. We really could live without them, but we have chosen to advance in civilization. The Internet has now become an intricate part of society. It is almost necessary for every working class person to have a connection to the 'Net'. I do agree that the Democrat P.O.V. is use the gov't as a crutch, I think there is a difference though when it comes to city government creating an infrastructure versus the federal government. If the taxpayers are for it let em do it. If they are not, stop the gov't from improperly representing the people. As for legality issues the government is a business whether anyone wants to admit it on all levels(city, county, state, federal). | |
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me and you
@comcast.net
| Re: Government has a place in providing infrastruc Something that you (fiberguy) apparently dont understand is that the cities(government) are not providing any phone services, internet services, or any other service over the fiber.
You cannot sign up for Orem city phone service, or Orem city internet. You cant even sign up for Utopia phone, or utopia internet. You CAN sign up for xmission internet, AT&T and several other PRIVATE sector for profit companies. Quest, Comcast, and who the heck else that wants to provide services is allowed. So tell me where has the private sector been elimated that you're talking about? We dont have to use the copper on the poles anymore? We dont have to put our telecommunications future into the hands of a boardroom looking to sqeeze more profits out of less service?
Why is it so bad that other for profit companies can now compete with the incumbents for consumer dollars? | |
| | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Government has a place in providing infrastruc So, let me get this straight then.
These towns are pretty darn small right? From what I gather, not too many homes.
The group builds a vast fiber pipeline for an open architech for any company to come in and sell services across the delivery pipes.
I don't really see how this is going to lower prices to these people.
If I am right in my understanding lets say that 5 companies want to come in and sell services. They are not going to "resell" services right? So, they will all have to have head ends of their own filled with equipment to drive video services, internet service, and telephone services. A pretty big investment in equipment for all htose great toys that are required for delivering the services that fiber comands.
Now, each provider wanting to come in and sell has to have carriage agreements for video, buy backbone bandwidth for internet, and pay all the telco linkup fees and transport costs to carry calls.
Finally, back to the total population served. How much can these service providers expect or hope to get of this rather small area of homes each? Will there be enough to go around? Or, do some say it's not worth it and back out, (useless to sell in this small environment but not out of the question) or do some just fold? Then we are down to a provider or two. I am sure that Cable and Qwest both fail at this point becuase they can't and won't compete with fiber. The competition or choice becomes slim again and we are back to where we started only we have a fiber optics network with probably two providers.
Part of what drives competition is the ability to negotiate contracts on a national level. I really don't think major players in the industry (Cox, Comcast, SBC, Verizon, etc) would really want to come in to this environment..
so then what? Is this REALLY going to benefit the customer in the long run? I think all people see is fiber in their eyes - and fiber equals success.
I think these cities would have been better off working with both the cable companies and telephone companies to work together and build this backbone. Again, nother problem.
I just don't see this being the utopia that it wants to be. | |
| GhostDoggy
join:2005-05-11
Duluth, GA | Muni+Patriot Act=Big Brother Muni+Patriot Act=Big Brother
Big Brother = Government
Government = For Sale to highest MPAA/RIAA bidder.
Therefore ... Muni+Patriot Act = MPAA/RIAA  | |
| | MrBentor
join:2003-02-18
Seattle, WA | Re: Muni+Patriot Act=Big Brother I wonder what would happen if the city/county lost the lawsit and was told by a court to stop, ignored the court and said we are going to continue irreguardless of what the court orders? | |
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