 
ColdFiltered
join:2005-01-25
Atlanta, GA | Bellsouth did this with IFITL Many people don't know this, but I just wanted to bring this to light as its nothing new. Bellsouth did exactly this when they were deploying fiber for their IFITL (Integrated Fiber In The Loop) platform, which they no longer continue to deply. | |
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 | Cod
join:2000-07-05
Greensboro, NC
|  Re: Bellsouth did this with IFITL
said by ColdFiltered  :Bellsouth did exactly this when they were deploying fiber for their IFITL (Integrated Fiber In The Loop) platform, which they no longer continue to deply. who says they no longer deploy it? | |
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jtudor
Xm 60's On 6 Freak
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-07
Morganton, NC
 ·AT&T Southeast
| Re: Bellsouth did this with IFITL said by Cod :who says they no longer deploy it?
Everyone.
Just do a search in the Bellsouth forum. Those who have it will keep it, those who do not have it now, will not get it.
Bellsouth has moved on to newer technology, and left IFITL behind.
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Best of luck
"Do, or Do not, there is no try!" Yoda
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| | | PDXPLT
join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR
| This is Verizon's anti-CLEC plan ... ...which is a key component of the FIOS strategy. The government will never force Verizon to lease any portion of the fiber connection to any competitor, at rates lower than Verizon wants to lease it at. Not so with copper. So removing that copper loop is very important to Verizon. | |
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wwdubbia
join:2002-06-03
Clinton, NY
| Re: This is Verizon's anti-CLEC plan ... said by PDXPLT :...which is a key component of the FIOS strategy. The government will never force Verizon to lease any portion of the fiber connection to any competitor, at rates lower than Verizon wants to lease it at. Not so with copper. So removing that copper loop is very important to Verizon. It is my understanding that Verizon is negotiating with CLECs to lease Fios-based services on a wholesale basis. I thought I read about it on dlsreports first, but I just tried a search and could not find it. | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: This is Verizon's anti-CLEC plan ... ...like everything else, unless the terms and pricing of the "negotiated" lease are subject to regulatory oversight (they aren't), there won't be any financial benefit to a CLEC to enter into such leases. Verizon will simply dictate terms and call it a "negotiation."
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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Rob
In Deo speramus
Premium
join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL
 ·Comcast
| said by ColdFiltered :Many people don't know this, but I just wanted to bring this to light as its nothing new. Bellsouth did exactly this when they were deploying fiber for their IFITL (Integrated Fiber In The Loop) platform, which they no longer continue to deply. Don't remind us.
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YourIP.US - Quickly Locate Your IP!
LiveWhois.Net - It's Never Been So Easy!
RR.CX - My Personal Blog | |
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betterhardware
@verizon.n
| The commitment to better, more energy efficient ONT's and equipment will make copper based networks obsolete! Battery backup tecnology should get better over time (we all hope) wiht lithium ion batteries probably doubling the capacity of regular sla (sealed lead acid) which should provide lots of 'standby and talktime' in emergencies.. (good to keep a spare, just incase) Next generation GBPON equipment should provide a better energy savings as well as increased bandwidth and have a more robust battery backup solution as well- with that, why would anyone want to go back? | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: Bellsouth did this with IFITL said by betterhardware:
... with that, why would anyone want to go back?
Because the copper is subject to UNE-loop leasing rules, whereas the fiber is not. In particular, even if Covad has a collo in your CO, there is no remaining copper loop for Covad to lease to your home. If there were, then Covad could provide you DSL and a thousand or so VoIP providers could give you voice.
With only the fiber present, any use of that fiber by other companies will be only on Verizon's own chosen terms, without the input or oversight of regulatory commissions.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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The Right Info
@bellsouth.net | You are wrong. IFITL is not even close to the same thing. IFITL uses fiber to the curb and then standard CAT3/CAT5 cabling to the house. No fiber NIDs or special equipment on the customers side. | |
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Rob
In Deo speramus
Premium
join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL
·Comcast
| Re: Bellsouth did this with IFITL said by The Right Info:
You are wrong. IFITL is not even close to the same thing. IFITL uses fiber to the curb and then standard CAT3/CAT5 cabling to the house. No fiber NIDs or special equipment on the customers side.
So where is the copper for IFITL Users? THey removed the existing copper and ran fiber to the curb and then cat3/cat5 to the house. Which means we can never pick another DSL provider, we *must* use Bellsouth with their 1.5/256 $45/mo. whereas cable is 4.0/384 for $42.95. hmm
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YourIP.US - Quickly Locate Your IP!
LiveWhois.Net - It's Never Been So Easy!
RR.CX - My Personal Blog | |
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kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY
 ·Packet8
edit:
May 10th, @11:22AM
| Re: Bellsouth did this with IFITL said by Rob :said by The Right Info:
You are wrong. IFITL is not even close to the same thing. IFITL uses fiber to the curb and then standard CAT3/CAT5 cabling to the house. No fiber NIDs or special equipment on the customers side.
So where is the copper for IFITL Users? THey removed the existing copper and ran fiber to the curb and then cat3/cat5 to the house. Which means we can never pick another DSL provider, we *must* use Bellsouth with their 1.5/256 $45/mo. whereas cable is 4.0/384 for $42.95. hmm This is stupid - why would this mean you cannot choose anybody else?
What's the difference between Verion-owned copper or Verizon-owned fiber? If they'll be less competietive, you'll simply call up another company, cable or DSL and they'll either have access to Verizon's fiber or will pull in or reactivate your old copper. It's not your job to care about that - for example I upgraded my Speakeasy last year to OneLink, a copper pulled-in and owned by Speakeasy (or Covad, dunno'), so I waS able to get rid of Verizon and their cheating incorrect billing practices from my life forever. | |
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Rob
In Deo speramus
Premium
join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL
·Comcast
| Re: Bellsouth did this with IFITL said by kamm :said by Rob :said by The Right Info:
You are wrong. IFITL is not even close to the same thing. IFITL uses fiber to the curb and then standard CAT3/CAT5 cabling to the house. No fiber NIDs or special equipment on the customers side.
So where is the copper for IFITL Users? THey removed the existing copper and ran fiber to the curb and then cat3/cat5 to the house. Which means we can never pick another DSL provider, we *must* use Bellsouth with their 1.5/256 $45/mo. whereas cable is 4.0/384 for $42.95. hmm This is stupid - why would this mean you cannot choose anybody else? What's the difference between Verion-owned copper or Verizon-owned fiber? If they'll be less competietive, you'll simply call up another company, cable or DSL and they'll either have access to Verizon's fiber or will pull in or reactivate your old copper. It's not your job to care about that - for example I upgraded my Speakeasy last year to OneLink, a copper pulled-in and owned by Speakeasy (or Covad, dunno'), so I waS able to get rid of Verizon and their cheating incorrect billing practices from my life forever. Sadly, IFITL doesn't have regulations like copper and Bellsouth is not forced to allow other ISPS (ie. Speakeasy) to sell the service. Therefore, we must use bellsouth with the standard 1.5/256 speeds (they do not support higher speeds).
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YourIP.US - Quickly Locate Your IP!
LiveWhois.Net - It's Never Been So Easy!
RR.CX - My Personal Blog | |
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fiber_man
Things Happen For A Reason
Premium
join:2001-01-27
Port Saint Lucie, FL
| Re: Bellsouth did this with IFITL Almost all new developments are using DFITL (FTTC). There are several neighborhoods in Miami-Dade that were retrofitted with IFITL/DFITL in the last few years. Some of them from what I have heard are using IPTV as a trial as I write this. I don't know how it is going! We are deploying the backbone for IPTV in this area right now.
As for copper going away forget it. What do you think powers all of the pedestals in the IFITL/DFITL deployments. Thats right 22 guage copper from the cabinet to the pedestal. 138V DC if you are wandering.
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GO NOLES!! | |
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ColdFiltered
join:2005-01-25
Atlanta, GA
| One only needs to keep in mind why SBC sought (from the FCC) a ruling that yeilded them the right not to share any new fiber infrastructure.
Now, I never meant to suggest that Bellsouth hasn't sought to tariff their IFITL service, because they have and they do wholesale it to resellers--I'm using Speed Factory as an example. But, its a single tariff for a set program service. The design wasn't to accommodate multi-tier service offerings.
And the only copper on my loop is between the green torpedo on my lawn and my NID (and into my home).
betterhardware, you are correct and it is a good approach. Energy isn't free and communications companies use a buttload.
The Right Info: Why are you being snide? I offered an example of how Bellsouth's IFITL removes copper (POTS) lines that typically come in from a CO, SLC, etc. I never meant to imply that there wasn't any copper. Sure, the final 200-400' is copper, but there isn't an F1/F2 paired assembly leading back to a SLC or central office. And its because of this condition that newer copper-only services cannot be offered on it. ANd there isn't a modem to speak of. Its strictly Ethernet to the Ethernet switch. | |
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yabos
join:2003-02-16
Ingersoll, ON | FIOS and phone Does the FIOS VOIP go down when there's a power outage? | |
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oroper
Patriots Rule
join:2004-06-01
Beverly, MA
| Re: FIOS and phone said by yabos :Does the FIOS VOIP go down when there's a power outage? The battery backup should last for approx 8 hrs. I think you can also add a UPS to it to last longer.
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I'm a Chapelle Fan-I'm Rich Beehatch!! | |
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Black Mammot
Enjoy The Ride
join:2000-06-12
Lovettsville, VA | I don't really know the answer to the question, but there is a 12 hour backup battery for the fiber.
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I am a Software Engineer for hire or contract. Please Instant Message me for details. | |
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| shashinka
join:2000-09-16
West Boylston, MA | I believe they install a battery that powers the customer end for several hours. | |
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JTRockville
Data Ho
Premium,MVM
join:2002-01-28
Rockville, MD
clubs: | Re: FIOS and phone The battery doesn't power everything on the customer end - only the phone service (not IP, and probably not video).
Loss of power often coincides with an emergency situation, which isn't the best time to lose your ability to communicate. | |
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The Beer
I Love It When A Plan Comes Together
Premium
join:2001-07-24
Omaha, NE
clubs: | Re: FIOS and phone Better yet send high intesity light, or a strange spectrum of light down a pair of fiber with a solar cell at the end...
I know that was stupid but it sounds cool! | |
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| | | | dibbb
join:2003-09-19
·Time Warner VOIP
| Re: FIOS and phone Hey - you know what? That actually does sound cool. I'm sure there will be a bunch of people chiming in about how "that's not possible, you can't do that", but hey, never say never!
Sounds better than PoE, would it be called PoF?... | |
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NOCMan
Verizon Fios User
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Flower Mound, TX
| Actually that would be fine to power almost anything given that anything ran off superconductors. Reason everything takes so much power is becuase it's more efficient at leaking energy than using it. Just look at how much computer processors give off in heat. 100w under load for some of them and they're consuming up to 300w in some cases. | |
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| | | shashinka
join:2000-09-16
West Boylston, MA
edit:
May 10th, @11:05AM
| I wouldn't think it would power everything either but whatever they are terminating (maybe not the ethernet). Any analog phones would get power from the termination box. | |
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quetwo
That VoIP Guy
Premium
join:2004-09-04
East Lansing, MI
·TDS
| said by shashinka :I believe they install a battery that powers the customer end for several hours. A couple of hours is not long enough! Remember the big black-out that part of the country suffered through for up two two days? If only fiber is deployed to the home, we will loose telephone support.
Your local LEC is required to keep their central offices / IDFs working, even through black outs. If their batteries go dead, they switch to desiel. During the big-black out, Linemen were running out to every pedistal and hooking up generators, and filling them up with gas often. This way, should someone have an emergency, they could still contact 911. | |
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ColdFiltered
join:2005-01-25
Atlanta, GA
| I cannot speak for Fios in the context of VoIP, but I can say that BellSouth's IFITL and virtual POTS (in the sense its riding fiber from the lawn torpedo to the central office several miles away) is very reliable. I have only once had POTS not working and that was daytime planned maintenance (caught the technician down the street). Of course, this is not VoIP. | |
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pcscdma
Chocobo Chocobo Random Battle
Premium
join:2004-01-14
Winterset, IA
clubs:
| Moving said by article:
When Verizon installs the fiber-optic connection to your home, the technicians cut down the old, copper-line connection to the telephone network and will not replace it if you later decide to cancel. So the next folks to buy your house will inherit Verizon's fiber connection with it
I think FCC rules require telephone service to everybody that has copper running to their house. There are also requirements on pricing for low-income homes. I don't know if telephone service qualifies as copper and a dial tone or any medium and dial tone. Either way they probably need to be able to provide standalone phone service at the PUC rate.
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Posting .sig | |
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| shashinka
join:2000-09-16
West Boylston, MA
·Verizon Online DSL
·Charter Pipeline
| Re: Moving You probably wouldn't see fiber running into low income areas. I still think they would have to offer the same phone rates otherwise they would see even more people moving away from their services alltogether. Be nice to see some Wireless services available via Wi-MAX. | |
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| | nosnam
join:2005-01-31
Donora, PA | Re: Moving they dont want to move into low-income areas either, they are only upgrading the areas where they know people pay their bills, that is why they dont want franchise agreements, they would be forced to service they whole area, not pick and choose. | |
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JazzJRabbit
join:2003-09-27
Wheaton, IL
·WOW Internet and C..
| non verizon customers? I'm not sure how this works, but, say, what if your long distance service is from other company than verizon? Do they cut the line too? Do you still get to keep your land based phone along with long distance provider but the signal is now carried via FIOS instead of copper?
I'm confused...  | |
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| shashinka
join:2000-09-16
West Boylston, MA
·Verizon Online DSL
·Charter Pipeline
| Re: non verizon customers? If you had local service from another provider then that provider is paying Verizon for the copper loop. Either they are able to provide that on the fiber or they leave it alone. Either way you still have the service. I would hope to see other companies be able to use that fiber eventually. Just like they are looking at making cable companies sell their services. | |
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The Answer Guy
@uu.net
| Re: non verizon customers? I hope Vz is never forced to provide fiber service to another company. The reason they have to share the copper is due to the monopoly and tax breaks the government gave the ILECs throughout history. The fiber network is put in at Vz's own will and therefore is entirely owned by them. It would not be fair to them to be force to share it. Covad and all have every right to place a fiber network for their use. Should they be forced to share their fiber network? | |
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clickwir
join:2001-06-21
Dickson City, PA | no copper is a good thing This isn't a problem. No copper is a good thing. It's about time they did away with that old crappy, have a problem every time the farmer down the road uses his electric fence, copper.
This is a good thing. We want to get rid of the copper. | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: no copper is a good thing ...of course you do, if you're an ILEC monopolist and you don't want to have to lease it to others, especially DSL providers.
You see, if you force everyone onto your own fiber, then you can force them to accept your terms, including your protocols. And you can then throttle the IP portion in such a way as to make no voice service, save your own, works.
Don't think I'm right? Let's see in about 5 years or so....
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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SquareSlinky
Premium
join:2004-05-25
Tampa, FL | The Post doesn't know what they are talking about I still have my normal phone line, it is just over fiber. Who cares if they cut the copper. All they do is upgrade you from old copper to new fiber. I am not sure the Post understands what they are talking about. | |
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| cuindy
join:2000-07-21
Aurora, OH
| Re: The Post doesn't know what they are talking about said by SquareSlinky :I still have my normal phone line, it is just over fiber. Who cares if they cut the copper. All they do is upgrade you from old copper to new fiber. I am not sure the Post understands what they are talking about. So what is new, it would not make "NEWS" if there was not some type of "problem" even if its not true. Why should they let the facts get in their way. | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA | Re: The Post doesn't know what they are talking about ...just keep accepting the rope, and soon you'll have enough to hang yourself with....
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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SquareSlinky
Premium
join:2004-05-25
Tampa, FL
·ViaTalk
| Re: The Post doesn't know what they are talking ab I have Vonage also, the only reason I have not switched is because I am moving soon and I have a current home alarm system tied to the phone. I am porting my home number to Vonage real soon and will get wireless alarm in the new house. I am all for VOIP. | |
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JTRockville
Data Ho
Premium,MVM
join:2002-01-28
Rockville, MD
clubs: | What About Other Copper Services? What if you have DSL (or some other advanced service) through a 3rd party, and you want to keep it as a backup for FiOS? | |
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See 6 replies to this post |
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jjoshua
Premium
join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ
·Comcast
| Good for the phone company The phone company is only going to do something when it's in their best interests.
Removing old wires is extra work. There is probably a good reason for them to remove the wires. Probably so no ne else can reuse the wires to provide a competing service.
The last mile, or the last few feet, is the hardest part of deploying a new technology. If the phone company invests the money and time to install a new technology, then they are going to make sure that you have no access to the old technology. | |
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| bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Covington, LA
| Re: Good for the phone company Well the whole sharing issue was put into place because the RBOC's inherited the copper network from Ma Bell. If they're putting in FTTH then that's something that they had no help from Ma Bell on. So why should they share? It's the same argument that people have accepted from the cable co's. | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: Good for the phone company No help? How about universal rights of access and rights of way? How about free access to buildings, PUDs, and subdivisions when competitors have to pay? How about use of existing conduits, poles, and vaults? How about the benefit of a legacy monopoly customer base to guarantee use of the new fiber?
You want fair? How about the ILEC gets to rewire every other census tract in its territory, and the competitors get the customers and ROW's in the other half? Since they'd both be using "new" facilities, it wouldn't be like the telco gave anything up, right?
Sheesh, bogey. Don't try to value the existing customer base, a carryover from monopoly days, at zero unless you really want to give it away....
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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| | | bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Covington, LA
| Re: Good for the phone company Those are all things they're continuing to have to pay on. A good many people alive today never had phone service under Ma Bell when they bought their home.
So why put the emphasis on the ROW when talking about developing a better infrastructure? Is it a better infrastructure you want or just to see any company that spawned from Ma Bell to go out of business? | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: Good for the phone company I want to see fair competition without undue advantage to the companies that had a century long headstart under a government sanctioned monopoly.
Now if they can't compete in a competitive environment, whose fault is that?
(BTW, many of the things I mentioned are not things the BOCs pay for today--they were given them in the past, for free, or they have been fully paid off by monopoly revenues.)
Calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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gwion
wild colonial boy
Premium,ExMod 2001-08
join:2000-12-28
Pittsburgh, PA
| There's one other thing badly misunderstood ... FTTP is not an internet service, it's not a new tier, it's not anything except complete replacement of an obsolete carrier medium, in the form of copper. It comes to bury copper, not to supplement it.
In the long run... a decade or so down the road... Verizon won't have a copper outside plant... period. Nor will any of the other telcos, eventually. This is something I keep trying to hammer, somewhat unmercifully, in the FIOS forum - not to tout or criticize it. Just to clarify the basic fact, that fiber optical systems aren't a service. They're a naked carrier medium, entirely service-agnostic. The service they happen to plan on providing is POTS and ISP services, eventually television, and who knows what, down the road.
They're also extensive and unbelievably labor and cost intensive to deploy. These networks aren't achieved by switching out some old equipment, adding some new equipment, and selectively re-cabling areas with deteriorated copper... these networks involve a complete refit, a new inside plant at the CO, and a ground up rebuild of every foot of cable and every item in outside plant in the CO's service area.
No, there's no way back... and, in the end game... and fiber, clearly understand, is an end game, not an evolutionary or interim phase in current communications technology, like DSL was... when this decade long strategic plan is finally wrapped up, nobody will have copper... it will cease being an option. As I'm fond of saying in the FIOS forum, it's not an "internet technology", and mistaking it for one is misunderstanding the purpose of fib-op, entirely. Fib-op is, again, a naked carrier medium. It's the state of the art in communications carrier media, and it will replace copper for everything... even if you don't want high speed internet, you'll eventually have fiber for POTS. Indeed, it's a matter of the telcos looking out for their best interests, no doubt. Copper is highly limited, maintenance intensive, susceptible to lots of QoS issues. It's essentially becoming obsolete in the face of modern QoS needs and capacity demands. A future-proof network, today, has to be fiber optical. It would probably be being deployed, perhaps not as aggressively or quickly, even if high speed internet didn't exist. The core systems of most telcos... the main line trunks... have been fiber optical for over a decade, now, in most areas. It's the neighborhoods and the last mile that's lagged. Fiber's the end game, not a tactical move...
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Semper Eadem
I can saw a woman in two
But you won't want to look in the box when I do
I can make love disappear
For my next trick, I'll need a volunteer | |
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Blasterbator
Sent By Grocery Clerks
join:2001-02-20
Jackson, MS | Re: There's one other thing badly misunderstood Telephones that require "wiring"?
My, how quaint. | |
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Fatal Vector
@aol.com | Re: Remember the Routers
The problem with this idea is that solar cells are extremely limited in their current delivering capacity and would likely be too large to be convenient as far as delivering enough power for the local electronics. | |
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Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA | Maybe in Washington, but not everywhere In massachusettes they give you the option of keeping your Copper wires. You can even keep your POTS phone service. | |
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haplo2112
join:2003-05-12
Charlton, MA
| The Ideal situation... ...I have heard that in some cases they have turned off the dial tone on the copper. The line now being run on the fiber for your phone service. However when tested the copper line was still powered. I figure it shouldn't be too hard to wire in a transformer capable of taking line power and turning it into enough juice (12V DC, for most routers I have run across, although I don't know the specific needs the one they are using for FIOS) to power the router.
Thats the one thing that still confuses the hell out of me, it used to be a selling/advertising point that the phone had 99.9999999% uptime, the power could go out and the phone still worked. (I remember that in the 80's when a hurricane killed the power at my parents house for 13 days, but the phone never stopped working.) It seems funny that with fiber that all goes away. I assume in someway it cheaper for the phone company since they No longer have to buy/generate as much power. However having the phone work for 8 hours for so, and then losing it seems unpleasant to me. | |
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Alex G Bell
join:2002-07-02
Boston, MA
|  What Exactly is the Question Here?
As to power requirements, in the long run it may be cheaper for the RBOCs with the fiber; in the short run they are operating two parallel systems, however.
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"Remember, Comrade, people who are willing to destroy an efficient telephone system may not be playing with a full deck." | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: What Exactly is the Question Here? The question--or rather the point of concern--is that with the copper goes all obligation to "share" the naked facility. Under current FCC guidelines, the fiber is much more subject to the whims of the ILEC than the copper was.
In particular, the ILEC can dictate the terms of use, prices for lease or resale of spectrum/services, and the protocols which can be used over the "naked facility".
If the ILEC chooses to require a protocol which disadvantages all voice providers except their own, tough luck, folks.
And if the ILEC chooses to require a protocol which disadvantages all video providers except their own, tough luck, again.
And if the ILEC chooses to require a protocol which disadvantages all gaming interaction except their own, tough luck thrice.
See where this is going?
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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Nymostwanted
Who Cares?
Premium
join:2004-06-25
New York, NY
·RoadRunner Cable
·Time Warner VOIP
| Re: What Exactly is the Question Here? Verizon is playing it smart! The person can't go back to DSL, leaving Cable as an option. They might be forced to go with Verizon Fios as internet, since they will see its a cheaper better service.
by they i mean a new customer moving into a house FiOS ready.
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Being Wise Is Not About Being Smart, Its About Making The Correct Choices That Will Affect One's Future.Making The Right Choice, Doesn't Always Mean, Its The Right One. | |
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alchav
join:2002-05-17
Palm Desert, CA
|  Everyone forgets, it's Verizon's Copper and Fiber!
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Get Fios, Lose Copper; Forever
