 
Thasp_without_post_w
 from:
Mark Z 
| Wow, what a piece of trash! 1150 / 30 = less than 40 minutes/month, about.
Using the phone for less than an hour a day is "excessive"?
Between the shaw, comcast, OOL, and now even voip caps, a large chunk of the internet is becoming a joke. Is it really that hard to let your customers use what they pay for?
If you got cut off for watching your cable more than two hours a day because it was abuse, how would you feel? If your phone company cut you off for using the phone more than an hour a day, how would you feel?
Why does it apply differently with the internet? It shouldn't, and let's show them it shouldn't by putting them into bankrupcy. | |
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Rogue Wolf
Drank Your Milkshake- He Drank It Up
join:2003-08-12
Troy, NY
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Wow, what a piece of trash! said by Thasp_without_post_w:
1150 / 30 = less than 40 minutes/month, about. Your math is off, I'm afraid. That was 1150 minutes a MONTH, not a YEAR. If it had been per year, there would be peasants with pitchforks and torches storming RocketVOIP's offices this very moment. 
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No matter how tempted I am with the prospect of unlimited power, I will not consume any energy field bigger than my head.
The Top 100 Things I'd Do If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord | |
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| | Bio Lizard
join:2004-04-15
Norfolk, VA | Re: Wow, what a piece of trash! No, his math was right, it was his English that was wrong. Change minutes/month to mintues/day. | |
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jarablue
Always be true to yourself
join:2001-06-11
Worcester, MA | Re: Wow, what a piece of trash! So your telling me he was talking on the phone 19 hours per day? Hmmmm. I doubt that but if it's true then yeah that is a tad exessive. | |
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JoshNJ
Premium
join:2001-12-25
Freehold, NJ
| Re: Wow, what a piece of trash! said by jarablue :So your telling me he was talking on the phone 19 hours per day? what are you talking about? change the word "day" to "month" in his first sentence and you will understand he typed the wrong word the first time, and didn't repeat the mistake again.
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Matt
Quitting Caffeine - Argh
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
 ·North State Commun..
1 edit | said by jarablue :So your telling me he was talking on the phone 19 hours per day? Hmmmm. I doubt that but if it's true then yeah that is a tad exessive. No, apparently he was on the phone 38 minutes/average per day.
(1150 minutes divided by 30 average days per month equals 38 minutes per day)
I am betting he was doing something illegal if the total minutes per month is right.
(EDIT)
There are 1440 minutes in a day, so this article makes more sense if he was using 1150 minutes per day... | |
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insomniac84
join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN
| Re: Wow, what a piece of trash! First companies need to stop advertising unlimited if they are going to set excessive usage limits. Then to rebut what you said.
How does it make more sense if he was on the phone 1150 minutes a day? If that was the case people would probably agree that his phone use is excessive. This article makes sense because its criticizing a VoIP company saying 38 minutes a day is excessive. Of course any normal person isn't going to agree that 38 minutes a day is excessive. I would go so far as to say no company should try to consider any usage excessive until it goes above 4 hours a day. And even so when that happens they need to set something up where a user pays double, and gets double that. Most companies solutions end up being a higher priced plan that doesn't even contain as many minutes as their excessive usage threshold. But I reiterate, no company really has the right to make an excessive usage cap if they continue to advertise unlimited usage. | |
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JoshNJ
Premium
join:2001-12-25
Freehold, NJ
| said by Thasp_without_post_w:
Is it really that hard to let your customers use what they pay for? That is the point, residential users AREN'T paying for UNLIMITED use.
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I support the RIAA | |
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DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
·Comcast
·Patriot Media
 ·Cingular Wireless
| Re: Wow, what a piece of trash! said by JoshNJ :said by Thasp_without_post_w:
Is it really that hard to let your customers use what they pay for? That is the point, residential users AREN'T paying for UNLIMITED use. But didnt they sign up for unlimited use, or did the dictionary defintion of unlimited suddenly change to fit corporate america ? | |
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JoshNJ
Premium
join:2001-12-25
Freehold, NJ
| Re: Wow, what a piece of trash! said by DaveNJ :But didnt they sign up for unlimited use they signed up for RESIDENTIAL unlimited use, the situation here seems to be that the company believes that it is unlikely 19 hours on the phone per month is not being used for a business, I base this on the fact that the company sent the guy an email that implies they do not believe he is not using it for business purposes (and he even says in the thread that he NEEDS that many minutes per month)
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58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11 | Re: Wow, what a piece of trash! Bullshit.
19 hours a month = ~40 minutes a day. Hardly "business use".
Quit defending these scumbags. You sound like a stockholder. | |
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JoshNJ
Premium
join:2001-12-25
Freehold, NJ
| Re: Wow, what a piece of trash! said by RadioDoc :19 hours a month = ~40 minutes a day. Hardly "business use". You are missing something else very important in the equation, the op is making international calls, 19 hours overseas for residential use is even more excessive than calling down the street.
said by RadioDoc :You sound like a stockholder. I never even heard of this voip company until I read the article, thank you very much.
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58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11 | Re: Wow, what a piece of trash! If they advertise "unlimited", I don't care if he's calling Mars. Catch a clue. | |
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lyls
@tele.dk
| Re: Wow, what a piece of trash! well that guy is always defending the companies for some obscure reason..... and i also agree that if they advertise unlimited then they better mean it and if they do say "switch to business or be disconnected" then they should have proof that the account in question is being used for business use | |
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nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| Re: Wow, what a piece of trash! said by lyls:
well that guy is always defending the companies for some obscure reason..... and i also agree that if they advertise unlimited then they better mean it and if they do say "switch to business or be disconnected" then they should have proof that the account in question is being used for business use
Good luck doing that without violating wiretap laws...
Even if I call nothing but businesses from my line, I could simply be an activist calling to complain at all those companies.
-tom
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"Some people have morals, standards and ideals about quality, but I'm an American: I couldn't care less." --Tony Pierce (paraphrased) | |
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mph300
Two Thirds The Way There
join:2000-11-09
| said by JoshNJ:
they signed up for RESIDENTIAL unlimited use, the situation here seems to be that the company believes that it is unlikely 19 hours on the phone per month is not being used for a business
Uhhhh, try on a wife and 2 teen girls and 19 hours a month is a drop in the bucket! I KNOW the hourly usage on my pots line is at least 28 hours a WEEK!!
And by the way, the definition of UNLIMITED
un·lim·it·ed ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-lm-td)
adj.
Having no restrictions or controls: an unlimited travel ticket.
Having or seeming to have no boundaries; infinite: an unlimited horizon.
Without qualification or exception; absolute: unlimited self-confidence. | |
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Dezbend
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-20
| Re: Wow, what a piece of trash! said by mph300 :And by the way, the definition of UNLIMITEDun·lim·it·ed ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-lm-td) adj. Having no restrictions or controls: an unlimited travel ticket. Having or seeming to have no boundaries; infinite: an unlimited horizon. Without qualification or exception; absolute: unlimited self-confidence. Quoting this definition makes no sense. A company can not sell an infinite of usage in a finite amount of time. The definition is meaningless in context. We need to discover what the industry considers to be unlimited to understand the claim. I don't think that unlimited is yet an industry term for VoIP - this and cases like it will determine what is meant by unlimited in this context.
Related industries (long distance and cellular) sell unlimited residential calling plans; however these plans do in fact have restrictions that are acceptable.
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mph300
Two Thirds The Way There
join:2000-11-09
| Re: Wow, what a piece of trash! said by Dezbend:
Quoting this definition makes no sense. A company can not sell an infinite of usage in a finite amount of time. The definition is meaningless in context. We need to discover what the industry considers to be unlimited to understand the claim. I don't think that unlimited is yet an industry term for VoIP - this and cases like it will determine what is meant by unlimited in this context.
It makes perfect sense. If the word or words they are using don't fit the usage they describe, then it becomes false advertising. We as consumers don't need a grammar lesson(I think it's safe to say that most people understand what unlimited means). The industry needs to learn what a word actually means before trying to entice people with certain words and then cover themselves with a security blanket terms of service that is rediculous! If you purchased a gym membership that was "unlimited usage" and then found out that you could only use the gym for 1 hour a week, would that be ok too? I don't think so! The same goes for an unlimited voip phone service that only provides you with LIMITED phone service! | |
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Dezbend
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-20
| Re: Wow, what a piece of trash! When you bought high speed internet; what speed did you get? The industry sells speeds like 512k/sec or 1.5Meg/sec 3.0Meg/sec does it bother you that those advertised "speeds" are a measurement of volume not velocity?
There exist industry terms. Maybe there aught not to be, or maybe Webster needs to put more entries under these words. Whatever the case we deal with an evolving language were the meaning of words must be considered in context.
A box can not contain infinitely many apples, nor can a month contain infinitely many minutes. It would be foolish to believe otherwise.
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If it is not recorded, it simply does not exist. | |
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58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
·AT&T Midwest
1 edit | Re: Wow, what a piece of trash! said by Dezbend :When you bought high speed internet; what speed did you get? The industry sells speeds like 512k/sec or 1.5Meg/sec 3.0Meg/sec does it bother you that those advertised "speeds" are a measurement of volume not velocity? Mine is advertised and sold as a range of bitrates, and I am happily sitting at the very top of that range (6016/608), and the company will let you drop to the next lower plan if they can't hit the minimum they advertise.said by Dezbend :There exist industry terms. Maybe there aught not to be, or maybe Webster needs to put more entries under these words. Whatever the case we deal with an evolving language were the meaning of words must be considered in context. The marketing industry can use whatever terms they wish to talk to each other, but when they are talking to the buying public they'd better be using standard definitions. Advertisers certainly should not be [re-] defining words like "unlimited" in any case.said by Dezbend :A box can not contain infinitely many apples, nor can a month contain infinitely many minutes. It would be foolish to believe otherwise. Then the box manufacturer better not advertise it as having "unlimited capacity".
You keep missing the point. Unlimited in this context means no limits are imposed by the company. It does not mean there are no limits imposed by virtue of the number of total minutes in a month. There are natural limits imposed by ma nature and her henchmen, and there are artificial limits imposed by shyster company executives. The latter are illegal when your advertising states otherwise. | |
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Dezbend
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-20
| Re: Wow, what a piece of trash! Let me take one more try at trying to explain my point of view:
First of all I think annex1982 was grievously misled, and I am in no way trying to defend RocketVoIP's case.
However, take the general case of a company that sells unlimited residential service in which the ToS state the service is not to be used for business functions.
That company should have the right to enforce the ToS.
One reasonable way to differentiate residential from business service might be to compare the amount and length of calls made by the average residential customer and those of an average business customer.
If the usage of a residential customer is looking like the statistical model of an average business customer, a reasonable conclusion would be that the service is being used for business purposes and therefore is in violation of the ToS.
The word unlimited is clearly a marketing ploy as we have recognized at least some natural limitations (even though in an earlier post I did mention you could actually have usage greater than the amount of minutes in a month). It is reasonable then to try to define what is meant by the word... I was merely trying to define the limits of "unlimited" in context. If consumers expect unlimited to mean equal to the amount of minutes in a month then so be it. We would have then found the true definition in context. I was making no suggestions as to what reasonable limits should be, only that they would have to exist.
btw, RadioDoc, your post was well said.
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If it is not recorded, it simply does not exist. | |
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mph300
Two Thirds The Way There
join:2000-11-09
| Re: Wow, what a piece of trash! said by Dezbend:
That company should have the right to enforce the ToS.
Agreed, but this discussion is not about whether or not company "X" can or cannot enforce their TOS. It is about a TOS that has conflicting terms in regards to what is advertised or conveyed to the consumer.
said by Dezbend:
I was merely trying to define the limits of "unlimited" in context. If consumers expect unlimited to mean equal to the amount of minutes in a month then so be it.
I do believe that consumers(you and I included) expects the unlimited amount of minutes within any given time period to be the actual number of minutes in the given period! | |
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Dezbend
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-20
| said by RadioDoc :Mine is advertised and sold as a range of bitrates, and I am happily sitting at the very top of that range (6016/608), and the company will let you drop to the next lower plan if they can't hit the minimum they advertise. That is still a volume you were sold not a speed; does your ISP guarantee latency? That would be a speed measurement. The point is the industry changed the definition of the word speed in this context and we all went along with it - even you. We have to recognize industry terms.
said by RadioDoc :Then the box manufacturer better not advertise it as having "unlimited capacity". Right you are, but what if I were a apple sales man with a box of apples saying "take unlimited apples for a low low price of..." There would be implied limits.
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phunkysmell
@comcast.net
| There is an upper limit for VoIP in a month.
1440 minutes/day * 30 days = 43200 minutes
So in this case unlimited is not actually infinite.
I think when you have a family with teenagers and you're paying for a single residential VoIP line, you're going to use way more than 1000 minutes/month for NON-BUSINESS use. International? Maybe you have exchange students or distant family. Usually you pay extra 1-50 cents/minute for international calls anyway (I have Vonage and it does cost extra). | |
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mph300
Two Thirds The Way There
join:2000-11-09
| Re: Wow, what a piece of trash! said by rec9140:
To say I don't get it or understand all this yakking is to put it midly.
NO I do not have a wife/gf/so, or rugrats of any age or the need of either.
So some one enlighten me on what makes these teens and wives such gabbers.
Well, I don't REALLY think any man fully understands the female being!  | |
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WhyADuck
Premium
join:2003-03-05
| Re: Wow, what a piece of trash! Agreed. This is consumer fraud and false advertising. I wish that consumer protection agencies and state attorney generals would prosecute the outfits that do this to the fullest extent of the law - they are acting like common criminals conning consumers, and they ought to be officially branded as such. Just my opinion. | |
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| | | | elisjourney
mixologist2
join:2004-04-21
Huntsville, AL
| Re: Wow, what a piece of trash! This sort of situation is why the Republican Congress has it soooo wrong about eliminating/reducing class action cases. Obviously it would not be worthwhile for an attorney to bring a case for a single consumer who has been defrauded by the VOIP providers advertising "unlimited" residential service but if you aggregate enough of these claims it would be financially feasible and the VOIP scumbags would feel the pain. | |
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sholling
Premium
join:2002-02-13
Hemet, CA
2 edits | Re: Wow, what a piece of trash! said by elisjourney :This sort of situation is why the Republican Congress has it soooo wrong about eliminating/reducing class action cases. Obviously it would not be worthwhile for an attorney to bring a case for a single consumer who has been defrauded by the VOIP providers advertising "unlimited" residential service but if you aggregate enough of these claims it would be financially feasible and the VOIP scumbags would feel the pain. You know I don't totally disagree with you. The problem they faced was that trial shysters and their brother and sister shysters on the bench had so thoroughly crapped all over the system that something had to be done. It had become a system by, of, and exclusively for the lawyers... My first choice was loser pays. That's what England uses and it works to keep the junk suits out of the system. File a suit and lose because it shouldn't have been filed in the first place and you reimburse the victim of the suit all their costs.
Here we've had juries with sub-room temp IQs award millions in pure junk class action suits. Silicone implants being a perfect example. ZERO evidence but oh my she's feeling awful so let's give the poor hypochondriac millions in free money just so we feel good - after all its somebody else's free money... Pay up folks because bottom line you pay for it...
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"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
--FREDERIC BASTIAT--
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sholling
Premium
join:2002-02-13
Hemet, CA
1 edit | The PLEASE bend me over apologists crowd here still amazes me. No fraud is too outrageous for them they just want to pay and pay. I like to think of them as the "just because they advertise unlimited doesn't mean unlimited" - please screw me deeper group... This is the group used care salesmen love. Yup we promised to sell you a 2003 Corvette for $15,000... but oops we forgot to tell you about the $35,000 charge for waxing the car... lol. Pay up it's on page 143 of the TOS. lol. Any of you fools want to buy Bic pens for $1 please read the fine print (yeah right) only $300 each for S&H... lol!!!!!!
IMHO those TOS are going to be trumped every time by the advertised price. What these clowns count on is those idiots (see the forum for glaring examples) that just can't wait to get bent over! LOL.
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"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
--FREDERIC BASTIAT--
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JammerMan79
Premium,VIP
join:2004-05-13
Prince George, BC | I did 1500 minutes last month of just long distance. My gf and I moved 900KM (560 miles) away from all our family and friends. This total does not count local calls either.
1150 minutes in 1 month is nothing. | |
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sun rocket user
@comcast.net | another bait and switch company let the AG know... more the complains , more chance they will look in to it.
look what happened to bb and late fees | |
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Eek2121
join:2002-10-12
Andover, NJ | Bait and Switch... This is a classic example of bait and switch. While capping the 'unlimited' plans is legal, bumping users up to more expensive plans is NOT. How long before someone sues rocketvoip? | |
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paulhaskew
Unoffical Dominos Spokesman
join:2002-01-10
Vancouver, WA
clubs: | Re: Bait and Switch... packet8 does the same damn thing  | |
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Dezbend
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-20
| Can Unlimited ever be true? Is there a reasonable amount that would separate "normal" residential usage from business class service?
I am not trying to defend RocketVoIP and the 1150 minutes/month rule, but is it reasonable to have a rule defining what unlimited means to a residential customer?
I think creating a cap is reasonable. It may be considered abuse if you were using 40,000 + minutes per month. That obviously was not the intent of the product sold, but what is a reasonable definition of "unlimited" usage on a residential line.
From the feedback above it is clear 1,150 minutes per month is not fair, but were is the reasonable line? 2,500, 5,000, 10,000 minutes?
I think the company that balances monthly price with a reasonable definition of unlimited for the residential user will ultimately be successful. As with any product we vote through our walets...
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If it is not recorded, it simply does not exist. | |
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jshivs
join:2000-11-14
Milford, PA
| Re: Warning: Mathematics Beyond This Point Comparing cellphone plans with VoIP plans is a totally inaccurate comparison. Cellphone usage is a completely different style of telephone usage. VoIP can more accurately be compared with landline plans. VoIP and landline plans are both in home residential use. Cellphones are more commonly used as a mobile and/or second use type of telecommunication. VoIP and landline are meant to be primary forms of communication. When Verizon and/or SBC offer their "unlimited" plans would you accept a cap of 1150 minutes a month. NO WAY!! People would be allover any of the baby bells for this. Why then is it OK for a VoIP provider to do this? They want to advertise it as a primary form of telecommunication, then hide behind caps buried inside of their TOS. The only way to put an end to this type of trash is to "vote" with your wallet and find a provider without these ridiculous limits. | |
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digiblur
Got Sipura?
Premium
join:2002-06-03
Louisiana | Junk.... Sticking with my VoicePulse | |
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| lgkahn
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Londonderry, NH | Re: Junk.... I would put a modem on the and use it to get one of your other computers on the net 24 hours a day over the voip connection  screw em.. then you are really unlimited.. | |
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AnonProxy
Proxy of Anon
Premium
join:2001-05-12
ß
| Unlimited equals unlimited When I signed up for cellular service they didn't say you have unlimited anytime minutes and then cap me at 1000.
They told me I have 1000 anytime minutesd and unlimited nights and weekends at that by that they mean from 7pm until 7am M-F and from 12:01 Am on Saturday until 7am on Monday (weekends)....
At NO time did I think that 1000 meant ulimited and at no time did they infer that unlimited was anything but that and they were VERY specific about the times that I would get unlimited minutes.
Industry standard for unlimited for phone service...is UNLIMITED...caping it means it's LIMITED | |
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doncute18
join:2003-04-08
12365
| All i have to say is Vonage. All i have to say is Vonage, You never see anyone complain about Vonage minutes at all. Vonage understands that people have kids that use the phone and stuff. Before any one gets a plan change within Vonage it is really heavily looked at. Also we monitor for at least 2 months to see if they same pattern continues, then a actual HUMAN Determines if the person should be switch or not. | |
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TheGiant
Next Year Is Here.
join:2001-03-28
Knoxville, TN
| Re: All i have to say is Vonage. said by doncute18 :All i have to say is Vonage, You never see anyone complain about Vonage minutes at all. Vonage understands that people have kids that use the phone and stuff. Before any one gets a plan change within Vonage it is really heavily looked at. Also we monitor for at least 2 months to see if they same pattern continues, then a actual HUMAN Determines if the person should be switch or not. So your unlimited plan is also limited? | |
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jjoshua
Premium
join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ | Disconnect Fee WTF No company that charges $40 to DIScontinue service is going to get my business in the first place. | |
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ColdFiltered
join:2005-01-25
Atlanta, GA
| RocketVoIP, for the dumb-inclined. There really isn't much more one can say at this point. If someone didn't read the TOS/AUP/etc. at contract signing (if there is a contract), or that the provider changed the terms mid-contract, then one must be an idiot for staying with a VoIP provider considering how many there are at present to migrate to, including taking the same phone number.
Simply leave RocketVoIP for someone else. But, between the hidden agendas of these soon-to-be fly by night companies (I'm betting most will not be around in 5-10 years once the RBOCs and cable companies go full-throttle, offering better QoS, etc.) that are attempting to milk consumers now before they go out of business. I especially like the unfee aspect mentioned in another thread, and the reclassification of VoIP consumers now going by the name Ben Dover. | |
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Nightshade
sic semper tyrannis
Premium
join:2002-05-26
Salem, OR
|  Just a Buzzword
These words are designed to catch the attention of the consumer so that they think about the products/services that the company is advertising, become attracted to the product/service, and purchase said product/service from the company.
The computer industry are the buzzword kings. Heck, many computer companies hire people just to create buzzwords for new products.
This is especially true of computer software companies where buzzwords such as Professional, Platinum, Gold, Silver, Studio, Special, Suite, Edition, etc. are standard buzzwords used by software companies.
Dual capital word combinations such as XP, (Microsoft), MX (Macromedia), and CS, (Adobe) are now appearing as buzzwords in the software industry. Some mean a word and some mean squat but none the less serve the same purpose.
When it comes to buzzwords buyer beware cause they are nothing more than catchy words to get you to buy the product without giving much thought because it is appealing.
"That is so cool" is the most dangerous thought any consumer can have, period.
It is your money they want you to spend, make them earn it from your wallet. 
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Just say "no" to bad code | |
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Denjin
join:2001-01-18
Schaumburg, IL
| WTF I make over 6000 minute a month to the UK, and it is residential. My fiance lives there. At least I've done this for 6 months with Lingo and they've had no problems. I even emailed them before signing up and they said unlimited meant unlimited.
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When Unlimited, Isn't
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