 navalpatel
join:2003-07-28
Lubbock, TX
| PFT There are always going to be instances where people willingly overlook any important instuctions. That does not give the state the right to sue each time. I am not sure how Vonage presents their material on setting up 911 service, but I bet it would be clear enough so that the average user would set it up.
I think this will lead the way to VoIP/e911 reform and FCC regulation of the VoIP industry. | |
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911Advocate
@nortelnetworks.com
| Re: PFT I am not going to get into the battle of if Vonage notified you or not. Clearly their web page makes the required legal statements.
One point that is being lost is E911 and 911 and HOW a call is routed. The E911 system is a telco based 'cloud'. You enter in the cloud by dialing 911 from your phone, your caller ID is looked at, and an intelligent routing decisions made to terminate your call at the proper PSAP.
Right now, Vonage and other VoIP carriers DO NOT have access to that E911 'cloud'. What they are forced to do is call forward your call to the public non-emergency number at the local police station.
This may not be your E911 PSAP, your call is not treated as a 911 call, nor does the PSAP dispatcher get the E911 screen pops with location information that they would get with a REAL 911 call.
So there are several issues here, and 911 registration is only PART of the problem. Even if you follow all of the VoIP providers rules, you are most likely not getting TRUE E911 service.
Some carrier have made arrangements to connect to certain E911 infrastructures in certain states. But few if any, can offer the same service nation wide.
Just wanted to set a few facts straight about how E911 actually works. I'll stay out of the political arena on who said what and when. | |
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n2jtx
join:2001-01-13
Glen Head, NY | Re: PFT said by 911Advocate:
your caller ID is looked at Actually that would be your ANI, not caller ID. Two different animals.
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I support the right to keep and arm bears. | |
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011Advocate
@optonline.net
| Re: PFT I used the term Caller ID for simplicity sake. And for the record, E911 uses ALI not ANI  Another animal all together from CLID and ANI, or PS-ALI if the subscriber paid for that servie.
Oh... the plot and complexity thickens. | |
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packetscan
Premium
join:2004-10-19
Bridgeport, CT
clubs: | Was their not terms an conditions upon signing up for this service?
I rest my case! | |
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Murray3
join:2001-03-06
Texas | I think it's a bit harsh on Vonage I think Vonage makes it pretty clear myself.
Also, the fact that Vonage have stated they would work with the Texas AG recommendations/suggestions of possible improvements also tells me Vonage are being serious about it. | |
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DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
 ·Comcast
·Patriot Media
| force the customer to give info When you sign up for Vonage they should make the customer give them there 911 local number, and have it mapped to 911. So if someone dials that number they get there local police. It should be part of the signup process. I am totally on vonages side on this. | |
| | TheGhost
Premium
join:2003-01-03
Lake Forest, IL
clubs: | Re: force the customer to give info Problem is, some people take the Vonage box on the road. It would be cool if somehow a GPS could be incorporated into the BOX and coordinates transmitted, but that may be a while off. | |
| Cod
join:2000-07-05
Greensboro, NC
| 911 It is perfectly clear, if you are literate, that you must manually subscribe to 911 with Vonage. I signed up 3 months ago and saw huge bold text while setting up my account to manually go in to activate my 911 service (which works great by the way with a test call made my me). | |
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oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA
3 edits | I'm no Vonage fan... and their 9-1-1 service is a complete joke...but when I signed up the 9-1-1 notice that you have to actively activate the service by providing your address during a sign up process is ALL OVER THE PLACE. It's there on their webpage where they discuss their 9-1-1 offering...it's a big warning you have to accept before you're allowed to setup, and it's there again on the portal afterward.
It's one thing to say you can't call a service 9-1-1 when it dials the janitor's closet of the local PD but to say Vonage doesn't give you notice that you have to activate 9-1-1 after subscribing is a complete lie.
»www.vonage.com/features.php?feature=911
What part of the BOLD FACED TYPE SAYING CLEARLY "You Must Tell Us the Physical Location of Your Vonage Line for 911 Dialing to Function." do these dumbasses not understand. In fact on this page they detail ALL of the problems with their 9-1-1 service and these same disclosures appear during signup which you have to agree you have read and understand...and it's not buried in some TOS/AUP and are available after signup.
I guess there is no crime in Texas as the AG has time to waste on this.
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Don't get it, demand it! The Anime Network www.theanimenetwork.com | |
| | Cod
join:2000-07-05
Greensboro, NC | Re: I'm no Vonage fan... how is their 911 service a joke? I pick up my phone, dial 9 1 1 and I'm connected to my town response center....Maybe I am in the minority, but works flawlessly for me. | |
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oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA
3 edits | Re: I'm no Vonage fan... Before I cancelled, mine called the front office of the local Sheriff's office (not even the county headquarters or anything)...problem was, it was an electronic auto attendant which told you "if you're having an emergency or are witnessing a crime in progress hang up and dial 9-1-1"...otherwise you are left on hold. And if it's after business hours you get that message to call 9-1-1 or you have the choice of leaving a voicemail with various departments there.
I think to call that 9-1-1 is a joke. Personally I think there ought to be federal standards of what a service has to contain before you can call it 9-1-1...and Vonage doesn't cut the mustard.
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Don't get it, demand it! The Anime Network www.theanimenetwork.com | |
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Captain Obvious
|  Re: I'm no Vonage fan...
Phone books still have direct numbers to emergency services, such as ambulance, fire, and police printed in them. The important thing is to know what your services can, and can't, do - and communicate that to everyone that needs to know.
For me, at least, it is still cheaper to have cable internet ($42/mo), Vonage ($25/mo) and Verizon metered telephone ($14/mo). Primarily because I would have gotten the Internet connection anyway - but also because I was paying ~$100/mo in long distance charges before. | |
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oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA
| Re: I'm no Vonage fan... I tried that. I was going to program the speed dial of all my phones with Police, Fire and Paramedics, but my Verizon phone book (and others) don't list emergency numbers other than 9-1-1. Departments here don't have emergency numbers any more...they all use 9-1-1. Only their front office (desk clerk) and direct numbers for some divisions within the department were listed.
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Don't get it, demand it! The Anime Network www.theanimenetwork.com | |
| 
BillRoland
Premium
join:2001-01-21
Ocala, FL
clubs:
·Cox HSI
1 edit | Wording is troubling "Stop. You must dial 911 from another telephone. 911 is not available from this telephone line. No emergency personnel will be dispatched."
There is a big problem with that when someone has disconnected the house from the telco's NIU and hooked it up to the ATA, so that ALL phones in the house are now Vonage lines. They could be in trouble by not making it clear enough that you need a cell phone or run to a POTS enabled neighbors house. That wording could lead people to go to another room and try again, and again. But then again in the event a home invasion or murder attempt, who could just run over to your neighbors and call 911? I think the Texas AG is trying for some PR out of this, but they may get a little more traction than some are thinking.
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"Don't steal. The government hates competition." | |
| LawmanGrant
join:2001-07-21
Spring Hill, TN
| vonage customer I have been a Vonage customer for 2 months.....And I can say, it was clearly explained to me that I had to manually activate the 9-1-1 service.
So, for someone to say they didn't know they had to, that is a joke.
On the topic of being BAD 9-1-1 service, Vonage is doing the best they can. My understanding of this issue (and this comes from being a cop in my town and asking the phone company people this question) is that the Bells (Bellsouth where I am at) will not let Vonage dial into and have access to the true 911 lines. So, why are we not asking the Bells for any help on this issue?
-Chris | |
| JPCass
join:2001-01-23
Denver, CO
| The Real World I see a number of interesting phrases thrown about here like "average user" and "if you are literate". How much have we considered the implications of what concepts like that really mean when applied to the general population, and not just a tech-savvy sub-group?
About a quarter of the adult population in the US is functionally illiterate - a rate that reaches 50% in metropolitan areas with high rates of poverty and immigration - and only half is literate to an 8th grade level.
I'm certainly not suggesting that everything be dumbed-down. But when it comes to emergency services - and to phone services being mass-marketed on the basis of being a low-cost alternative - it is probably appropriate to make assumptions based on a lowest-common-denominator approach.
It's also worth keeping in mind that children are taught about 911, so any 911 service really should be simple enough for even an actual child to use. | |
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DMS1
@motorola.com
| Re: The Real World Anyone who perishes as a result of missing ten zillion warnings about activating 911 service should receive a Darwin award. They will die knowing that they have done the world a favour by removing their obviously-challenged genes from the human gene pool. | |
| | | JPCass
join:2001-01-23
Denver, CO
| Re: The Real World said by DMS1:
Anyone who perishes as a result of missing ten zillion warnings about activating 911 service should receive a Darwin award. I was waiting for the first post like that.
But if you think about it, it's the people who do stuff like harvest in the fields who are necessary for our survival, while "skills" like knowing how to navigate a telephone menu system are superfluous to basic survival and evolution.
It occurs to me, is a "technological elite" that may be unable to relate to and understand the actual majority of the population, really going to be able to function effectively in the long-run? Historically, such elites don't necessarily even physically survive periods of social turmoil. | |
| | | RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
 ·AT&T Midwest
1 edit | said by DMS1:
Anyone who perishes as a result of missing ten zillion warnings about activating 911 service should receive a Darwin award. They will die knowing that they have done the world a favour by removing their obviously-challenged genes from the human gene pool. Tell that to a seven year old kid trying to dial 911--as they are taught in school--to save his dad, who is in the clutches of a heart attack. There is no way any sane person could expect that kid to think "oh yeah, I better go check the Vonage website to see if this is going to work before I dial 911". Or, worse, to expect him to understand the "go call from another phone, but not that phone over there, or the one in the family room either" intercept message in the midst of a life crisis.
The challenged genes are more likely to be working at Motorola these days, it seems.
Vonage has no business advertising as a POTS replacement (in the true sense of a one-on-one comparison) when in fact they aren't. | |
| 
verolom
join:2002-03-23
Eagleville, PA
·Comcast
| Vonage screwed up In attempting to attract more customers by suggesting that their service is comparable to POTS I think Vonage screwed up. VoIP cannot truly reproduce a regular land line and all the development that was put to provide a reliable 911 service so Vonage should have never claimed they can support 911. The half way implementation they have is actually worse.
The average Joe doesn't know that, all they see is a phone and they know if they push 911 on that phone they should get an emergency response. The average Joe might not be the one who ordered and installed the Vonage service and not even aware it is VoIP so responsibility also falls onto the person who did. How is that for misleading and in this case really hurting your customers? | |
| | rbb
join:2000-09-17
Fairfax Station, VA
1 edit | Shakespeare had the right idea about lawyers... Geez... If you can hook up the ATA, then it is not much of a stretch to program the emergency number for the local police/fire/etc into the speed dialer if you are worried about 911 services...
Vonage has an overwhelming number of warnings about 911. Just the other day, I got a mailing from them about their features and guess what - it included an article about setting up 911 services...
The people who the Texas AG is trying to defend are probably the ones like my old room mate. There was an accident right outside our house. As I was running to the door, I yelled for him to call 911. He replied "What's the number?" True story, I swear... Or maybe the people just can't find the "11" key on their keypad...
Off topic to vonage, but on topic for lawyers - Take a look at a container of Rain-X wipes - right there on the label is a warning not to use them for personal bathing... sigh... wonder who was stupid enough to do that get a warning on the label. Course it conjures up a strange image of a person smearing their body with a Rain-X wipe, jumping into a pool of water, then being spit out like a watermelon seed because of the rain-x... | |
| |
T-Man
@navy.mil
| Re: Shakespeare had the right idea about lawyers.. And now we have warnings on coffee cups! Some people are just to stupid to breathe.
I have been a customer with Vonage for the past 2-3 months and I knew I had to setup the 911 service, it's all over the web site. People like that need AOL!!! | |
| | mjcrocket
Mjc
join:2000-12-02
Abingdon, MD
| Re: Shakespeare had the right idea about lawyers... said by rbb  :Geez... If you can hook up the ATA, then it is not much of a stretch to program the emergency number for the local police/fire/etc into the speed dialer if you are worried about 911 services... But the emergency number for the local police/fire/etc is 911 !!! | |
| | | rbb
join:2000-09-17
Fairfax Station, VA | Re: Shakespeare had the right idea about lawyers... Every police/fire department have a regular number for emergencies and another for non-emergencies besides 911. | |
| | | | mjcrocket
Mjc
join:2000-12-02
Abingdon, MD
| Re: Shakespeare had the right idea about lawyers... said by rbb :Every police/fire department have a regular number for emergencies and another for non-emergencies besides 911. Wrong! They have regular numbers for non-emergencies only. In an area where the E911 system has been fully implemented, the regular numbers that used to be used for emergency reporting have been disconnected or are no longer connected to the emergency dispatch center. As was pointed out by a previous poster, these regular numbers frequently go to automated systems or to live people at the various fire or police departments who have nothing to do with emergency dispatching. In fact, in many locations the dispatchers are located in a completely different location than the "police" or "fire" department; and quite possibly are even employed by an entirely different branch of the local government such as the "Emergency Operations Center". | |
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OmenQ
Spazz
Premium
join:2003-03-21
Continuum
clubs:
| Re: Shakespeare had the right idea about lawyers... Wrong again! Having worked for a medical emergency monitoring center, I can tell you that there is a 10 digit telephone number for every police and fire dispatch station. Many will even answer with "9-1-1, what's your emergency?"
Think about it, if you have an alarm system monitored by Brinks (for example), do you really think they'll call "911" from their monitoring center 1,000 miles away from your home? No, they call the 10 digit number for your local emergency services.
Some cities/counties restrict that number for alarm and medical monitoring centers only, and it's not available to the general public, but it does exist. I've had to call many 911 centers from big cities to rural areas, and every one of them was called by dialing a 10 digit telephone number.
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"Why are there 6 pedals if there are only 4 directions?" | |
| RasputinX
join:2002-06-25
Waterloo, IL
2 edits | nature of VoIP Yet another case of government saving us from ourselves...
There are two kinds of VoIP users out there, people who see it as a replacement for POTS and people who don't. If you're trying to replace POTS theres simple steps to take to implement the 911 features on Vonage, to my understanding. If Texas is going to go after Vonage, they might as well get on the cell phone makers for not providing 911-linked GPS recievers in all cell phones. From what I understand the 911 related information and warnings for Vonage are quite prominent and clear, if someone chooses to disregard them, then thats their choice. I mean is this that hard? I'm sure it has to be simpler than signing up for the service in the first place.
Choices have consequences, consequences that can affect people who were uninvolved or ignorant of the choice. If the people involved in this tragedy were Vonage customers, and the warnings are indeed prominent and clear, a case could be made for criminal negligence on their part. Thats reality. Not blaming Vonage because someone didn't set it up right. VoIP is not POTS, its a new toy with new features, some of those features make it less than simple to implement the POTS-centric 911 system with VoIP. All part of the perils of being an early adopter... I dunno, mebbe we should just surgically implant cell phone/GPS receivers into everyone and have done with it.
In any event, I think that to solve the problem in the short and long term 911 should meet VoIP halfway, like why not make sure that 911 call centers do have a 10-digit emergency number available to the public, then when registering with a VoIP provider, or setting up 911 service, the customer location cam be matched to the correct call center. Maybe some of the blame has to go to the people who have blocked VoIPs access to the 911 system. Maybe VoIP needs its own dial tone, so people know they aren't on a POTS line, or their own codes for special features.
I dunno crap like this cheeses me off, the bottom line is the governor is accusing Vonage of not being idiot proof enough, which is ballocks.
If you choose forgo POTS in favor of VoIP, then its your responsibility to make sure 911 works, yourself. If it doesn't MAKE it work, or don't. If your local sheriff's office doesn't answer the phone after business hours and VoIP is locked out of 911, whose fault is it? Probably yours, because you haven't made enough noise yet...Call Vonage, the Sheriff, the local Baby Bell or whoever is presiding over the local ex-monopoly, call a local TV station and ask "WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?". I think that would do it. Remind them that the duties of municipal services is to provide them as needed, not dictate how they will be offered, or providing POTS' "killer app". | |
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Vonage 911 Squabble
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