 
Phoenix__1
join:2003-07-17
Holyoke, MA | That sucks I hate it when companies hide small notes in like that. People should learn to be more up front about their policies.
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Want to know how to get a free mini mac? Send me a pm. | |
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Defiance82
Computer Elite
Premium
join:2002-09-11
Reeds Spring, MO
clubs:  | Re: That sucks Ouch. Now that sucks. Must be border line fruad but looks like it isn't! | |
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UBdude
Premium
join:2004-05-11
Buffalo, NY
| Re: That sucks seems like all voip is this way. when i signed up for att cv the agreement had if you use more then 5000 minutes monthly you would be investigated.
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Don’t let your friend ruin there life. Give them a Linux CD and lead them back on the right path. | |
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| | | Damon85
Premium
join:2004-12-25
Louisville, KY
| Re: That sucks I don't think anyone's disagreeing with their right to investigate high usage for business-relations. It's the way they're handling legitimate high usage and classifying it as non-residential usage, when in fact, it is.
Bait-and-switch or deceptive marketing, whichever you want to call it... | |
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RadioDoc
Sortofadog
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
Chicago, IL
 ·AT&T Midwest
| Re: That sucks said by Damon85  :Bait-and-switch or deceptive marketing, whichever you want to call it... Yup. And just because some other company is doing it too doesn't make it right. These folks need to be honest with their potential customers. They give a 30 day, 300 minute "trial" but once that's over you're locked in, and they won't let you out without a "disconnection fee" even after they pull the switch part of the bait and switch.
I see 'packet8sucks.com' is available. Maybe it's time to make an example of one of these. | |
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| | | yabos
join:2003-02-16
Ingersoll, ON | Strange. There's no limit on POTS is there? | |
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voiplover
Premium
join:2004-05-28
Portsmouth, NH
 ·Axvoice
edit:
March 20th, @12:10AM
| Re: That sucks said by yabos :Strange. There's no limit on POTS is there? Of course there is. Who do you think changed the definition of the word 'Unlimited'. 
Check your TOS, and it also depends on the plan and the State that you are in. | |
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oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA
| Re: That sucks They're more strictly regulated by tariffs. If the limit isn't in the tariff, then it doesn't exist. VoIP is only governed my truth in advertising regulations which Packet 8 clearly violates by advertising that the service is unlimited while it's clearly not and clearly not disclosed in the unlimited calling advertisements.
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Don't get it, demand it! The Anime Network www.theanimenetwork.com | |
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| | | | drewfell
join:2005-01-27
Puyallup, WA
clubs:
| said by yabos :Strange. There's no limit on POTS is there? I haven't heard of a POTS company limiting your unlimited local calls, but they all limit your unlimited long distance plans. I think Qwest is something like 3000 minutes, then your account is put under review. | |
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| | | | | hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH
 ·buckeye cable
| Re: That sucks i had VarTec as local and long distance and they limited my LD usage to 2000 per month. But didnt provide me with this information until i hit the 3500 limit. thats when they finally sent me the TOS and other information.
i left and went with a different company. | |
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Denjin
join:2001-01-18
Schaumburg, IL
| Not true. With lingo I routinely make over 6,000 minutes of calls per month. Their billing page even counts down your minutes left from the number of minutes in a 30 day month.
said by UBdude :seems like all voip is this way. when i signed up for att cv the agreement had if you use more then 5000 minutes monthly you would be investigated.
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Ningen wa, ningen da. | |
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| | | beki
join:2005-03-30
Prospect, KY
| A friend put me on to www.phonehomeservice.com, and I have been very happy with my VOIP service. They even state that there is no limit on outgoing calls. I have a small business so I use it a lot. This service has really saved me a lot of money over the past few months. | |
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Rob
In Deo speramus
Premium
join:2001-08-25
Kendall, FL
·Comcast
| Re: That sucks said by Nerdtalker :said by Phoenix__1 :I hate it when companies hide small notes in like that. As do I. That must really suck. Looks like I won't be moving to VOIP anytime soon. Don't let one VOIP's stupidty and lies prevent you from taking advantage of VOIP. It's a great service with great potential!
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YourIP.US - Quickly Locate Your IP!
EasyWhois.us - It's Never Been So Easy! | |
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rawgerz
In Debt we trust
Premium
join:2004-10-03
Grove City, PA
·Verizon Online DSL
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| Re: That sucks yeah...i would defiantly report that to the BBB its obviously not "unlimited" even though that in itself is an oxy moron..theres only 43,200 minutes in a month
same should go for broadband ips's it wouldent hurt to know..
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Read this! | |
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Cybertek_TMC
@comcast.net
| I personally use Vonage, which although more expensive than Packet 8 has no limit, and as I talk to people around the US and Canada, I prefer true unlimited no hidden cost long distance. Also, with the federal ruling that Vonage doesn't get to be nailed with the same state taxes as phone or other regional VOIP providers, I think that I will stay with them.
In the past they actually lowered my monthly service cost. When is the last time you heard of any POTS phone company actually reducing your bill while providing better service? | |
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| Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | why do disconnection fees even exist, to me they allways seemed like a way to make money on people who probally leave due to crappy service.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
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| Cesssnaa
join:2004-11-12
Charleston, SC
| Wow people are just now finding out about this. I'm not sure if you've ever heard of Default Radio, but this was brought up on episode 2.5 November 28, 2003. You can listen to this episode of Default Radio 2.5 by clicking here. »files.pig-monkey.com/audio/defau···02.5.mp3 This radio show isn't currently a weekly show anymore but they talked alot bout telecom, preaking,and hacking related stuff. The main website is at »www.defaultradio.com Enjoy! | |
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check all fine print
@optonline.net
| Optimum voice and Sunrocket are the only two that have stated policies that say the bottom line price is the bottom line price for unlimited calling, beyond that you take your chances.... (with ultra high use)
sunrocket at $199 a year ($16-25 depending on billing options), or optimum for $30-35 depending on package deals..
If the bottom line price matters.. this will probably change the growth patterns of the companies that surcharge/cancel customer accounts... | |
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| Mordhem
Direct Tech
join:2003-07-10
Gaffney, SC | ya  makes wonder I am a packet8 consumer hope some time soon they straighten that up | |
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voiplover
Premium
join:2004-05-28
Portsmouth, NH
·Axvoice
| The subscriber used ~8500 minutes a month which cost P8 more than they are making on a $20/month plan. They didn't disconnect the subscriber they just tried to work out a solution. Many Voip providers would not have been so accommodating. I don't know of any voip providers offering DIDs and this many minutes a month for ~$20/month. If you do please post it, A.S.A.P. They need an affordable service.
Thank You | |
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Rogue Wolf
Came To Bury Caesar, Not To Praise Him
join:2003-08-12
Saratoga Springs, NY
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: 8500 minutes before P8 contacted them not 3K Personally, I'm fine with that. I know that companies have to operate within a margin, and that abusing a certain plan can actually cause someone to be an expense to a company rather than a profit.
However, the primary objection here is to hidden, secret or otherwise non-up-front rules on just how much is "too much", and the penchant many companies seem to have in switching you to something more expensive the moment you cross a line you're more than likely unaware exists. VoIP companies, and many companies in general, would be much better off if they dumped the "unlimited" marketing claptrap and were transparent with the terms of their packages.
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I do NOT trust the Internet. Spread tin cans and string! | |
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| raderator
join:2003-07-22
Conklin, NY | If they didn't have some kind of informal cap on residential users, business users would just sign up for the residential plan. Use your head. | |
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grannybeki
@insightBB.com
| Have you checked out www.phonehomeservice.com? I have my VOIP through this company which actually sells for Lightyear Alliance. There are no restrictions on outbound calls. I also have an 800 number with 500 minutes that only cost me $7.99 per month so my friends and family can call me for free. | |
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Rexter
YeeHaw
join:2002-11-17
cloud 9
| PR Disaster This is a major deal. They don't have a clue what they are doing, not only to themselves, but to VOIP in general. VOIP is in a fragile state. They are just starting to gain market share. Most people don't even know what VOIP is. This kind of underhanded tactic is not the way you want people to first hear about VOIP.
It's a shame. Looks like POTS will dominate for many more years.
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When all is said, and done, there will be more said than done. | |
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wjr110
join:2005-02-23
North Salem, NY
·Optimum Online
| Re: PR Disaster I think that the amount of people affected by this is small compared to the amount of people using VOIP.
I don't think that most people use 3000 or more minutes per month, so I don't think that this will affect many people.
VOIP is still much cheaper than POTS (right?), even if one can Only use 3000 minutes per month. | |
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chaud
Serious Business
join:2004-07-09
Anderson, SC
·Packet8
·Charter Pipeline
| Re: PR Disaster On the contrary, I am in a household with 3 people, two kids who don't use the phone really, and we have hit 1600 so far this month, I am sure the avarage household uses more than 3000....
Otherwise I still love packet8... but if they ever get on me about the min... | |
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| | buddasahn
join:2000-11-27
Akron, OH
| said by wjr110 :I think that the amount of people affected by this is small compared to the amount of people using VOIP. All the more reason not to alienate the small amount of people who have it. I'd be willing to bet that those small number of people who have VOIP service are fairly tech-savvy and would be offended like hell at the thought of being imposed with CAPS when it is clearly being advertised as unlimited. | |
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DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey | Its should be called the 3000 mins plan. Unlimited means there is no threshold, which there is one. | |
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vaporware
join:2002-11-07
Shreveport, LA
edit:
March 19th, @10:15PM
|  I stand corrected........
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cowspotter
join:2000-09-11
Falls Church, VA
| Re: This article is so Incorrect.......... What are you talking about? SLW ordered the freedom unlimited plan which plainly advertises unlimited PSTN minutes. When her minutes went over the invisible barrier of 3,000 minutes/mo, Packet 8 decided they wanted to move them over to the business 2000 plan. There is no question about the differences between business 2000 and virtual office. The question is why does packet 8 feel that they can use this ambigious TOS item to force higher usage customers to a different pricing plan. It's false advertising. SLW has made no mistakes here. | |
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ssj4android
Redefining Reality
join:2002-04-14
Wyoming, MI | Re: I stand corrected........ Looks like you're the one who should investigate more. Be careful, the more false stuff you say, the greater chance someone will sue you.  | |
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khex
join:2000-03-08
Jamaica, NY | Im Glad Im glad i havent got into the VOIP thing yet...im gonna wait it out for a while so they can get this stuff right. | |
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| spanishbob
join:2004-11-30
spain
| Re: Im Glad i've been using vonage for some time now, and have no complaints about the service. i suggest simply making a transition over time if you are uncomfortable with "jumping in". Problem is there are good and bad experiences you have to wade through- just give it a trial yourself. If anything you will benefit from setting it up and getting to know more about a pretty interesting technology. | |
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| Ih8comcrap
join:2004-12-11
Castro Valley, CA
| Re: VoIP is good I'm a very satisfied Packet8 customer for over a year now. With that said Packet8 clearly fraudulent in calling their plans unlimited, they make the claim in every case.
The TOS is a joke and Packet8 gets to decide what "reasonable" use is by a single family, even if it's advertised as unlimited.
Read for yourself:
»www.packet8.net/about/residential.asp
And the relevant TOS:
PERSONAL USE. 8x8's Service Plans for residential subscribers that offer unlimited minutes of PSTN calls ("Unlimited PSTN Plans") are for the reasonable personal residential use of End User only. This means that End User is not to resell or transfer the Service or Equipment to any other person for any purpose, without express written permission from 8x8 in advance. End Users of Unlimited PSTN Plans shall not use the Services for commercial or governmental purposes or for profit or non-profit activities, including, but not limited to, home office, business, sales, tele-commuting, autodialing, continuous or extensive call forwarding, continuous connectivity, fax broadcast, fax blasting, telemarketing or any other activity that would be inconsistent with personal and residential usage. End User agrees to notify 8x8 immediately if usage of the Unlimited PSTN Plans changes from personal residential to business use and subscribe to a business plan.
(No problem with the above)
8x8 reserves the right to immediately terminate or modify the Services of any End User using Unlimited PSTN Plans if 8x8 determines, in its sole discretion, that End User is not using the Unlimited PSTN Plans for End User's reasonable personal residential use.
(BIG problem above) | |
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tlpintpe
join:2002-09-13
Spicewood, TX
| Satisfied, but not quite First, I have been a very satisfied P8 customer for almost 2 years now (and have helped, at last count, over 20 friends sign up for Packet8). We don't use more than maybe 600 minutes a month at most (yes, I know I could get a cheaper plan, but I don't want a cheaper plan).
With that said, the truth is that P8 is advertising something they don't provide--the plain meaning of "unlimited" is without bounds or restrictions, but their ToS clearly gives them the right to cancel anyone who goes beyond what they consider reasonable.
In some sense, they are being dishonest in their advertising, and given enough time (regardless of their attractive pricing) that ethical problem with destroy their business. | |
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buddasahn
join:2000-11-27
Akron, OH
edit:
March 20th, @01:36AM
| CAPS...SCHMAPS! WHAT A CROCK! This 1st paragraph is from AT&T's Callvantage sign up page:
"Small Office Plan: Monthly rate includes voice and fax calls on 2 lines: unlimited domestic calls and calls to Canada on 1st Line and non-local calls up to 500 minutes per month on 2nd line. Waiver of minute caps by AT&T at any time shall not restrict the right of AT&T to enforce such caps thereafter."
The next 2 paragraphs are from the TOS:
"In addition, you are expressly prohibited from using the Service for auto-dialing, continuous or extensive call forwarding, telemarketing, fax broadcasting or fax blasting, or for uses that result in excessive usage inconsistent with normal residential or home office usage patterns.
If you subscribe to a calling plan which included unlimited calling of any type, unless otherwise specified by your specific plan in marketing materials associated therewith, any usage in excess of 5,000 aggregate minutes per month (or 7,500 minutes for small office plans, and certain AT&T teleworker plans offered to end users in conjunction with a corporate service), taking into account all types of calling in your plan which are provided on an unlimited basis, shall be presumed to be not consistent with these restrictions and shall be subject to the conditions above. AT&T also reserves the right to impose usage caps on second lines offered as part of a Service offer."
I currently have the local plan for $19.99 because I hardly make any long distance calls....Maybe a half dozen a month at best. But my girlfriend does work from home on the phones and I'm thinking we may have to switch to the small business plan.
OK....FINE.....so AT&T claims in their TOS that people who use the $19 or $29 plan for anything above and beyond "normal residential" use will either be assesed extra charges or terminated from their service. I CAN LIVE WITH THAT POLICY....(even though it's still advertised as "UNLIMITED") But then to make the above quoted statement in the 1st paragraph for those that do end up paying the extra $$$, I THINK THAT'S COMPLETE AND UTTER BS... AND YOU CAN BET THAT IF THEY PULL THAT CRAP WITH ME AND TRY TO EXTORT MORE $$$ FROM ME, THEY GOT ANOTHER THING COMING! | |
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SLW1
Premium
join:2005-03-18
Minonk, IL
| Wow...just noticed this... I just noticed that this article existed here. Wow...I didn't think this was so newsworthy. Been too busy answering posts to the original thread and researching other options to notice.
I would not have been at all concerned/alarmed/torqued if they did specify the number of minutes or have a little asterick next to the unlimited column describing Freedom Unlimited saying you'll be reviewed if you use more than x,xxx minutes. I would have known that prior to getting into the commitment, and probably would have ended up looking elsewhere. Put a number behind it folks!
3,000 minutes is not an option for this family. Nor will we except being bumped to a 2,000 minute + 3 extra cents per minute over when we got into this thinking it was unlimited.
Just did the math, if we did switch, and happened to have hit one of those 8,000 minute months, our bill would be $214.95 that month (not including taxes).
We are willing to pay more for true unlimited calling. We got into it thinking it's unlimited, the TOC didn't specify any cap (other than the 300 to back out within 30 days), and it's $20 a month. Lets try it for a month and see what happens. Our other options in our area are Lingo and Nuvio.
Before this, I was one happy P8 customer! | |
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oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA
|  It's a clear violation of the FTC TiA rules...
»www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/bus···faqs.htm
said by FTC:
What truth-in-advertising rules apply to advertisers?
Under the Federal Trade Commission Act:
advertising must be truthful and non-deceptive;
advertisers must have evidence to back up their claims; and
advertisements cannot be unfair.
Note that the FTC requirements are for the ADVERTISING to be non-deceptive...not that any deception must be disclosed in an TOS/AUP buried someplace. If the disclosure doesn't occur IN THE AD is it deception and illegal.
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Don't get it, demand it! The Anime Network www.theanimenetwork.com | |
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marketex
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Chicago, IL
| Re: It's a clear violation of the FTC TiA rules... Hear Hear:o Truly Deceptive and unconscionable.... But How about THIS!
I had been an AT&T POTS Voice Subscriber for over a year until I heard from my Broadband Provider that they were offering VOIP and simultaneously heard that SBC was buying AT&T (And I do so just LOVE SBC!!! ) and so I ported my AT&T number to my Broadband Cable Service and did all the requisite third party verifications and even checked back with AT&T three days after the port to make sure everything was ok and nobody had dropped the ball. AT$T (no typo) said fine and that I was owed a rebate for a partial month. So far so Good! That was February 12, 8 days before any AT$T bill would come due on the 20th of February.
WELL, Last week (That's right, MARCH 14) I get a call from AT$T that I better pay UP OR AT$T is gonna cut off my service!!!!!!! I Get MAIL that my service is gonna be suspended and they weren't even the supplier, even after VERRY HEATED PROMISES OF TORT LITIGATION TO COME and then they send me another letter dated March 15, that says that they have just SUSPENDED MY SERVICE..... STAY TUNED .... This is gonna be fun!!!!
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m0deth
@cox.net
| Now try and sue them to force 'truth in advertising' under class action in federal court and see how far that gets you...If nobody has noticed by now...In the US, corporations, and businesses in general have more rights now than it's citizens. Every measure of recourse for a normal 'Joe' to reclaim STOLEN money from fraudulent activity now meets with so much resistance under federal law that even if you did win, they still win because they will settle, claim no responsibility or wrongdoing, and you will get nowhere near the recompense you deserve for catching a thief in the act. Meanwhile the thieves do it to someone else, maybe if we call them what they are...they might hide their faces a little more often. and maybe if all of us call them thieves all at once, they won't have enough dough to sue us all for slander! laff (considering it's your stolen money suing you back) | |
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Notready
@comcast.net | VOIP What will happen when your calls start getting hacked, recorded and spamed. Also, what will you do when your internet phone is cyber attacked? No thank you this system is a train wreck waiting to crash........ | |
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chaud
Serious Business
join:2004-07-09
Anderson, SC | Re: VOIP Then we will have to install a firewall, and some virus protection on the ATA, and it will grow larger and overbloated. Life will be horrible.
Thats what you wanted to hear, right?
Don't doom a system, let it play out how it will... | |
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dibbb
join:2003-09-19 | yet another reason switch to TWC's Digital Phone Yet another reason to switch to TWC's Digital Phone...
no limits there. | |
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| Daviey
join:2003-02-26
Lakeland, FL
| Re: yet another reason switch to TWC's Digital Phone Don't kid yourself, they all have limits:
From TWC's terms of service, located at »www.twcdigitalphone.com/newyork/···ment.htm
5. Subscriber Conduct.
(a) The Digital Phone Service as offered and provided under this Agreement is a residential service offered for reasonable personal, non-commercial use only. Subscriber will not resell or redistribute (whether for a fee or otherwise) the Digital Phone Service, or any portion thereof, or otherwise charge others to use the Digital Phone Service, or any portion thereof. Subscriber agrees not to use the Digital Phone Service for any enterprise purpose whether or not the enterprise is directed toward making a profit, including but not limited to, telemarketing, call center services, medical transcription, or facsimile broadcasting. Operator reserves the right to disconnect upon notice as required by applicable law any prohibited transmissions or uses and to terminate the Digital Phone Service in the event of a violation of the foregoing use restrictions or in the event of an excessive number of calls during a fixed period, heavy usage during business hours, heavy usage concentrated over consecutive dates, or usage that may be deemed to be business use.
It reads very much like P8's.
-D | |
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