 
thongsai
join:2002-07-04
Santa Rosa, CA | monopoly no more and every1 was saying that not being forced to share was bad.. of course they want deals.. i hope sbc does same.
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»thongsai-roms.shorturl.com/ | |
|  | 
tapeloop
Long live Ollie.
Premium
join:2004-06-27
Airstrip One
| Re: monopoly no more I think it's positive what Verizon is doing, but I'm still skeptical. After that whole PA anti-muni bill fiasco, I'm not ready to trust VZ fully for anything.  But if this means that I can go to say, Speakeasy or Earthlink to get FiOS, then I'm all for it.
Of course, not being an affluent suburb, my neighborhood won't see the fiber laid until around 2012.  | |
| 
Bill
Light Up The Halo
Premium,VIP
join:2001-12-09
clubs:
| Good move on Verizons part Verizon is making itself look good by doing this.
They are sharing their network even though they don't have to. They are trying to make themselves not look like money hungry businessmen, in my opinion.
The big question I'd have is exactly how much would FIOS be through a third-party provider? Is it going to be much more expensive? Or will it be the same, like it is right now with third-party DSL providers? According to DSL Extreme, it's too early in their plans to say how much it'll cost.
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The new Secure-Wifi.net is open!
| |
| 11337845
Live free or die
Premium
join:2002-12-20
Seattle, WA
| Interesting It makes you think what Verizon's motive is. Are they really trying to be nice guys?
Nah. It just makes economic sense. They've made a huge investment in FIOS and they want to reap the returns. The best way to do so is to have more lines in use. The more ISPs that offer the service, the more customers that will sign up and use their service in one way or another.
For Verizon, it's a win-win situation.
--
Join me and those that think as I do. Revolt against the powers that be. Tell them that they are hypocrites. Let them know that their control is weak and pointless. Urge them to let us evolve into our own society and flourish as we should. | |
| | 
Tzale
Proud Libertarian Conservative
Premium
join:2004-01-06
NJ, USA
 ·Verizon FIOS
 ·Optimum Online
| Re: Interesting said by 11337845  :It makes you think what Verizon's motive is. Are they really trying to be nice guys? Nah. It just makes economic sense. They've made a huge investment in FIOS and they want to reap the returns. The best way to do so is to have more lines in use. The more ISPs that offer the service, the more customers that will sign up and use their service in one way or another. For Verizon, it's a win-win situation. Who cares?
It's a business. Verizon wants to make money, and the only thing that can come from this is more competition and a better deal for the consumer. If Verizon is doing this (I don't care WHY) they are HELPING me by letting me pick the best deal for myself. I won't be stuck with Package A or Package B but instead will have different options from different ISPs.
-Tzale
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Hey OOL, throttle this! I'm going to FIOS...Verizon FIOS Forum | |
| | | 11337845
Live free or die
Premium
join:2002-12-20
Seattle, WA
| Re: Interesting said by Tzale :Who cares? 1. The news item was incredulous about Verizon doing something like this without their hand being forced.
2. Your points don't disagree with mine.
3. Uh? | |
| | | |
Tzale
Proud Libertarian Conservative
Premium
join:2004-01-06
NJ, USA
·Verizon FIOS
·Optimum Online
| Re: Interesting said by 11337845 :said by Tzale :Who cares? 1. The news item was incredulous about Verizon doing something like this without their hand being forced. 2. Your points don't disagree with mine. 3. Uh? I viewed your post as being sceptical about Verizon. Next time please quote my entire reply, not just the "Who cares?" It makes it look like I don't care about them sharing.. But in reality I am saying that I don't care what their INTENTIONS are but that they are doing GOOD for us.
-Tzale
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Hey OOL, throttle this! I'm going to FIOS...Verizon FIOS Forum | |
| | 
KoolMoe
Aw Man
Premium
join:2001-02-14
Annapolis, MD
clubs:
·Verizon FIOS
 ·Speakeasy
edit:
March 13th, @03:23PM
| It's interesting how VZ complains about having to allow competitors access to their copper, complaining they can't make any money under such a rule, but then turn around and voluntarily offer access to their Fiber.
So apparently the only difference is VZ doesn't like having a cap on the rates they can charge. That's understandable.
The real question then becomes what VZ will charge competing ISPs for access to their fiber? Assuming it's proportionally, significantly more, how will ISPs justify their higher costs?
They'll have to have very lean operating expenses or be able to throw premium service on top of the generic connection.
This model can work. SpeakEasy is a good example. They're not public so I don't know their financials, but they seem to be doing well servicing the 'higher end' market even though their prices are higher-end too.
I'd have had a little more respect for VZ and the rest of the ILECs if they had just said, upfront, that they don't like rates resulting from TA'96. Occasionally out would come 'the cap is too low', even though they never justified it with true costs. How come everyone has to play games and try to spin everything...."Technically impossible", "Unfair regulation", "Confusing for customers" - blah.
I'm glad VZ will offer access. I just hope they do it in a way that there can be pseudo-competition and not higher-priced versions of the same VZ service.
(and I say pseudo-competition because when the company owning the lines also provides service, the resellers are at the mercy of that company - that's not really competition).
KM | |
| | | 11337845
Live free or die
Premium
join:2002-12-20
Seattle, WA
| Re: Interesting VZ complains about sharing copper because they have no investment to worry about. Those lines are already in use for POTS, so using them for DSL is quite less expensive than FIOS.
Again, it's all about the money for them. A business will always do what's in its best interests. It just happens that this time it benefits the consumer.
Watch out for them to stop sharing their FIOS lines when these contracts end and they've proven their service is viable to the consumer.
--
Join me and those that think as I do. Revolt against the powers that be. Tell them that they are hypocrites. Let them know that their control is weak and pointless. Urge them to let us evolve into our own society and flourish as we should. | |
| | | 
scooby
Premium
join:2001-05-01
Schaumburg, IL | You are also forgetting that the FCC or state commissions were setting copper line share (une-p and une-l) pricing. With FIOS VZ will pick the price. Big difference there. | |
| | 
nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| said by 11337845 :It makes you think what Verizon's motive is. Are they really trying to be nice guys? Nah. It just makes economic sense. They've made a huge investment in FIOS and they want to reap the returns. The best way to do so is to have more lines in use. The more ISPs that offer the service, the more customers that will sign up and use their service in one way or another. For Verizon, it's a win-win situation. It's not just that, it's that, when they sell to an ISP, that ISPs going to pay for blocks of lines, whether or not they have the customers to pay for them. This allows Verizon to get back their investment quicker.
-tom
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"Some people have morals, standards and ideals about quality, but I'm an American: I couldn't care less." --Tony Pierce (paraphrased) | |
| | | 11337845
Live free or die
Premium
join:2002-12-20
Seattle, WA
edit:
March 13th, @03:31PM
| Re: Interesting That's exactly what I said. 
EDIT
OK, well not exactly. But it's what I was thinking when I wrote that. | |
| | vavoiper
join:2005-03-08
Falls Church, VA
| And when the original commercial sharing agreement ends, Verizon will jack up the price to the ISP's and lower their price in order to "convince" the ISP's customers to switch to Verizon in order to "get it all on one bill." It's the same story we've seen over & over. | |
| apilosov
join:2002-12-27
Forest Hills, NY | Not true. Verizon *is* obligated to provide ISPs access to the FIOS deployment, at least until FCC rules in favor of the waiver of Computer II requirements.
(See their most recent FCC petition) | |
| | DonLibes
Premium,ExMod 2001
join:2003-01-19
| Re: Not true. said by apilosov :Verizon *is* obligated to provide ISPs access to the FIOS deployment, at least until FCC rules in favor of the waiver of Computer II requirements. (See their most recent FCC petition) Could you provide a pointer and/or a better explanation? I can't even imagine why they would be require to provide access to other ISPs. (If so, will the rates be regulated? If not, what's the point?) | |
| | hescominsoon
join:2003-02-18
Brunswick, MD
·Comcast
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by apilosov :Verizon *is* obligated to provide ISPs access to the FIOS deployment, at least until FCC rules in favor of the waiver of Computer II requirements. (See their most recent FCC petition) NO they are not. They won the ability to have their fiber service be exclusive to them. They ahve to share their copper plant..they are not obligated to share their fiber plant(hence why they are rollling it out so aggresivly.)
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God Blesshttp://www.emmanuelcomputerconsulting.com-- carpe ductum -- "Grab the tape" | |
| | | apilosov
join:2002-12-27
Forest Hills, NY
| Not true. No, you are confused.
Verizon does not have to offer access to fiber/FIOS as a UNE to CLEC/DLEC. (Rates for UNE are cost-based). (Think: Covad cannot put their own fiber-DSLAM-equivalents and get access to FIOS same way as they do copper). (Think: No "layer 1" unbundling).
Verizon *does* have to offer access to ISPs on "equivalent interconnection" terms as they offer to Verizon Online. ("Layer 2" sharing). This requirement is due to "Computer II" case and associated requirements. They are fighting this one as well, FCC forbearance petition 04-440.
In this case, costs are not state-regulated, and basically, VZ only has to be a few pennies cheaper than their retail rate to qualify for the "equivalent interconnection".
VZ-affiliated ISPs *can* order FIOS services. | |
| | | | JohnA
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Pittsburgh, PA
| Re: Not true. said by apilosov :Verizon *does* have to offer access to ISPs on "equivalent interconnection" terms as they offer to Verizon Online. Verizon Online has nothing to do with FIOS.
Verizon Online sells DSL over copper.
Verizon sells FIOS. | |
| | | | | apilosov
join:2002-12-27
Forest Hills, NY
| So not true Who are you and why are you making those statements?
I own a DSL ISP, and have been running the first VZ-affiliated DSL ISP in 1998. I know what I'm talking about.
»www.yeichner.com/FiosBrochure.pdf
Quote from VZ brochure: "
Internet access service provided by Verizon Internet Services Inc., or GTE.NET LLC d/b/a Verizon Internet Solutions ( Verizon Online ). "
At any case, for purposes of the discussion, it is irrelevant whether it is a VZ-owned subsidiary like VOL or VADI that provides the service. Under CEI rules ("Comparably efficient interconnection") if LEC is providing "information services", it must offer service to ISPs (like Pilosoft, my company) on the similar terms as they provide to themselves.
This is something VZ is seeking forbearance from. This is the topic of 04-440 petition. However, that is still the case now, and (at least in theory), we can order FIOS-based service for our customers. Since there isn't all that much FIOS deployment in LATA 132/224, it's kind of theoretical thing, but if someone here lives in Westchester and wants to try to order FIOS from us, we'll be glad to try to see what happens | |
| | | | | | DonLibes
Premium,ExMod 2001
join:2003-01-19
| Re: So not true If an ISP did apply to use Verizon's fiber, who would set the rates? Would Verizon make an application (tariff?) that would then have to be approved by the FCC? I assume Verizon could set the rates very high to cover their high costs of installing fiber. But they can probably take a loss when using it for themselves - when providing FIOS, no? | |
| | | | | | | apilosov
join:2002-12-27
Forest Hills, NY
| So not true VZ would have to file the tariff, yes. I think that tariff may have already been filed, I need to check.
Tariff can have pretty much any price VZ decides, as long as its not ridiculously high, as so not to give ISPs more reasons to sue for not conforming to "Comparably Efficient Interconnection" rules . For DSL, VZ has always set the wholesale price to be about a dollar less than retail price. | |
| 
OreoleO
Wanna Settle This Outside??
join:2004-05-22
Feasterville Trevose, PA
edit:
March 13th, @02:58PM
| . Maybe they are selling the other companies the access (like a 1 time thing plus monthly charges), so they can recap the money on their investment much quicker. | |
| 
yoonix
Floating Taco Of Doom
Premium
join:2001-03-27
Teaneck, NJ | Speakeasy Fios! Excellent. I was all ready to leave Speakeasy for Verizon Fios when Fios gets here, but it seems like I might not have to. | |
| 
fegul
Premium
join:2004-08-23
united state | Comcast Please? I hope Comcast signs on, because Verizon probably won't be coming to my area in my lifetime. | |
| | Rob850
join:2003-04-11
Mary Esther, FL | Re: Comcast Please? I doubt if comcast will do something like this. Maybe in 10 years or so we will have fiber to our homes.
Rob
--
»www.robfwb.com | |
| | ricky54lim
join:2005-03-10
Philadelphia, PA | vz fios is hitting suburbs first. they are doing it in downingtown,pa and not philly. dont know why. but suburban couties are getting it first. maybe cuz they dont have dsl and want those people to get fios. | |
| 
rawgerz
In Debt we trust
Premium
join:2004-10-03
Grove City, PA
·Verizon Online DSL
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
edit:
March 13th, @04:55PM
| Not a bad idea.. i always thought that verizon should provide fiber to a town and the local isp(s) do the hook up to the customers, that way its less of a monopoly, this shouldent be too much of a surprise after all how can ONE isp serve the whole country..it cant
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Read this! | |
| 
oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA
| I think it's great... This may appease regulators while Verizon accelerates subscriber base. Getting customers is more than just putting the cable in the street, it's also the marketing which can get expensive. Sure we here count the days but there are many who don't know the difference or see the point of a 5+Mb connection. This is where the marketing dollars of other ISPs like DSL Extreme help Verizon. Verizon gets a good portion (guessing since they're in the position to set the price) the money for the sub without having to do the legwork.
It's a win-win for Verizon and their customers. Appease regulators, increase subscriber base.
--
Don't get it, demand it! The Anime Network www.theanimenetwork.com | |
| | | 
LIFiOS
@optonline.net
| Re: Will this come to my city though? The larger the subscriber base the quicker the re-coop in money to keep reinvesting into the fiber plant. So the answer is hopefully yes, as long as they can make wall street happy, they are gonna keep dumping money into this network because like mentioned earlier there are no regulations on this technology, yet. | |
| mishaq
Premium
join:2004-01-24
Richardson, TX
clubs:
| Uh, ok Yeah, this is fine, but it doesn't really mean anything. FiOS is just like cable in this aspect, just one trunk that is split off in neighborhoods to each house. "Competition in FiOS" is no more than other companies selling Verizon's service by paying wholesale for the right to do so, and slapping their name on it and providing their own tech support for it (i.e. Earthlink Highspeed, AOL for broadband, etc). Unlike DSL, where companies can actually put their own DSL equipment in the CO and just rent the copper wires from verizon, this is still all verizon equipment, because, like cable, sharing wouldnt make any sense whatsoever, and would basically be impossible. I don't really see the advantage to this, if I were to get FiOS I'd get it from Verizon, unless for some reason the wholesaler were able to give it to me at a much lower cost, but Verizon's prices are all ready reasonable and Id rather be able to deal directly with Verizon for support issue instead of some thirdparty to be another hurdle in the chain of support to verizon technicians.
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Damn you FCC! | |
| | 
wwdubbia
join:2002-06-03
Clinton, NY
edit:
March 14th, @08:41AM
| Re: Uh, ok said by mishaq :Yeah, this is fine, but it doesn't really mean anything. FiOS is just like cable in this aspect, just one trunk that is split off in neighborhoods to each house. "Competition in FiOS" is no more than other companies selling Verizon's service by paying wholesale for the right to do so, and slapping their name on it and providing their own tech support for it (i.e. Earthlink Highspeed, AOL for broadband, etc). Unlike DSL, where companies can actually put their own DSL equipment in the CO and just rent the copper wires from verizon, this is still all verizon equipment, because, like cable, sharing wouldnt make any sense whatsoever, and would basically be impossible. I don't really see the advantage to this, if I were to get FiOS I'd get it from Verizon, unless for some reason the wholesaler were able to give it to me at a much lower cost, but Verizon's prices are all ready reasonable and Id rather be able to deal directly with Verizon for support issue instead of some thirdparty to be another hurdle in the chain of support to verizon technicians. Actually in the typical Verizon resale environment, the reseller is just the billing agent (i.e. 'slapping their name on it'). Verizon still rolls the truck to handle repairs. The benefit of dealing with a reseller is that they're often smaller allowing more personal service yet big enough to have some pull with getting resolution to trouble tickets in the NOC that a home user would not have. You may actually get BETTER service with a reseller. You are in the minority of people who would rather deal directly with the animal called 'Verizon'. | |
| | | 
SRFireside
join:2001-01-19
Houston, TX | Re: Uh, ok Something else to consider is you would be going through the reseller's network. The hardware might all be Verizon, but the bandwidth is from the ISP you get service from. | |
| | | 
latez
join:2002-01-07
Brooklyn, NY
clubs:
| Re: Uh, ok >> The Big Picture Some of you are forgetting one major aspect. The kind of Fiber Deployment that Verizon is laying out isnt just for nothing. There is a motive to their madness. Say they don't even hike the rate on the competing isp's too badly, they still get hit up on the back end from all the lines being lit up that they charge the ISP. So no matter what happens they are making money, whether its them thats providing the actual server or a slightly smaller sum of money if its the competition and thats all fine and dandy. BUT what does this really mean? Verizon has a fully fiber network throughout neighborhoods, and they also own the fiber, they will finally do what has been done to them for years which is to break into a foreign market. Verizon may start offering along with your Fios Data Service You're subscription TV service, and video confrencing etc.. etc... the possibilities of the amount of bandwidth each wired home will be capable of sustaining is tremendous. Large cities like NYC if deployed quickly would be a great trial for true video confrencing.... Remember Demolition man? One big tv little camera... phone calls, tv shows, etc.. all from one screen. | |
|
Medvitz
| Infrastructure Upgrade I wouldn't be surprised if this were being done to help speed up the process of getting all of verizons customers on fiber. When they come to do the install, they remove the old phone lines from the outside of the house, and all of the potential services (voice, internet, and video ) are available over the fiber. Verizon's installation is free, in part because they want to move everyone to the fiber infrastructure as soon as possible. Allowing other ISP to market the FIOS service only helps this. | |
| 
ColdFiltered
join:2005-01-25
Atlanta, GA | Truly unfortunate. I guess this means Verizon is not seeing sufficient sales under their own ISP subsidiary company to justify the deployment. | |
| | indio007
join:2001-06-22
North Adams, MA
edit:
March 14th, @10:49AM
| Re: Truly unfortunate. I think Verizon is in a rush to be the first large scale roll out of cable/phone/data all over one wire. The first one there is the winner. You have to give Verizon credit for moving their butt.
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»www.universaltech.org
MCSE + Security | |
| | |
ColdFiltered
join:2005-01-25
Atlanta, GA | Re: Truly unfortunate. Really? I didn't know they had anything yet on Fios except broadband service. I wasn't aware they had the first public VoIP/IPTV customer. | |
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Verizon Confirms FiOS Access
Will this come to my city though?