 
Jameson
10-8
Premium
join:2004-05-28
Fallbrook, CA
clubs:  | WOW! wow i love gayol so much! | |
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Nerdtalker
Working Hard, Or Hardly Working?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-02-18
Tucson, AZ
clubs:
 ·Comcast
| Re: WOW! said by Jameson  :wow i love gayol so much! Who doesn't. AIM has been crap-laden for a long time.
Who even uses AIM for anything they could care about anyways? | |
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mrchris
We don't miss you Bush
Premium
join:2002-10-01
North Babylon, NY | This is a sheer invasion of privacy and should be taken seriously!  | |
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Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-01
IA
·Mediacom
1 edit | Re: WOW! "You waive any right to privacy."
But the question is:
Is this worded simple enough for an average AOL user to understand?
Maybe I should go to AOL forum and ask them?
--
Someone who finds a job they love will never work a day in their life. | |
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Jameson
10-8
Premium
join:2004-05-28
Fallbrook, CA
clubs: | Re: WOW! haha you should! | |
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zipjay
join:2003-03-11
Louisville, KY | just use trillian or gaim just use trillian or gaim or some other program that allows you to connect to their network lol | |
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theman23
Premium
join:2004-06-17
San Francisco, CA
clubs:
| Re: just use trillian or gaim said by knightmb :said by zipjay :just use trillian or gaim or some other program that allows you to connect to their network lol If you can connect to their network they can monitor it or record it. Doesn't matter which client you use, unless those using 3rd party programs are immune? Well according to the article, it says only those who DOWNLOADED the AIM program, so I'm guessing those of us who use 3rd party apps, like Trillian, are immune. | |
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| | | macmouse
Premium
join:2002-05-30
Saratoga, CA
| Re: just use trillian or gaim Well, maybe only the new versions have the updated legal agreement but there is nothing technologically preventing them from recording every message that passes through their servers.
The only real way to ensure your not being snooped is to enable encryption. I'm not sure if I would trust their own system using certificates, because they could (theoretically) include a back door in it to send clean copies (using their own key) for logging. Now if you used encryption in gaim/trillian, then there is no conflict-of-interest to do that. As well as having the source to back it up with gaim. | |
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| | | | yabos
join:2003-02-16
Ingersoll, ON | Re: just use trillian or gaim Legally they can't change the agreement that you have previously agreed to. So if you downloaded the program before Feb 3rd like the article says then they shouldn't be able to monitor your IMs. Technically they can but legally they can't. | |
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Qumahlin
Never Enough Time
Premium,MVM
join:2001-10-05
united state
| Re: just use trillian or gaim said by yabos :Legally they can't change the agreement that you have previously agreed to. So if you downloaded the program before Feb 3rd like the article says then they shouldn't be able to monitor your IMs. Technically they can but legally they can't. Incorrect. It's a ToS agreement, it can be changed at anytime providing the changed agreement is provided to you somewhere...which it is.
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Forum Posts:6000 | |
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| | | | | jayperkins
join:2001-05-19
Brookhaven, MS | Yes, but if you updated since then, you are under the new TOS. You agree to it on the download. They can force compliance by just telling everyone there is a big security hole and they must update. When you do, you are under the new TOS. | |
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Qumahlin
Never Enough Time
Premium,MVM
join:2001-10-05
united state
1 edit | Re: just use trillian or gaim said by jayperkins :Yes, but if you updated since then, you are under the new TOS. You agree to it on the download. They can force compliance by just telling everyone there is a big security hole and they must update. When you do, you are under the new TOS. incorrect again. As soon as you connect to the AIM network you are under the new ToS based on the fact that the ToS itself states that it is subject to change.
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Forum Posts:6000 | |
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| | | | | | | jayperkins
join:2001-05-19
Brookhaven, MS | Re: just use trillian or gaim Interesting. If that is true, why do they say
"The following terms and conditions apply to all users who either registered for AIM services or downloaded AIM updates or software on or after February 5, 2004."
Curious. | |
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pcscdma
Chocobo Chocobo Random Battle
Premium
join:2004-01-14
Winterset, IA
clubs:
| Re: just use trillian or gaim They could have lawyer-speaked it better than that. I'm not sure if it says - "The following terms and conditions apply to all users who either registered for AIM services" or "downloaded AIM updates or software on or after February 5, 2004." as if it was 2 different parts separated by an "or". They could have meant it as a complete sentence. There is just too many "or"s to parse for me. And what if someone registers or downloads after that date and talks to somebody who has not downloaded a new version or happened to register before that date?
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"The bad news is that we are told that Michael Powell, one of Washington's better bureaucrats, is calling it quits today after four years at the helm of the Federal Communications Commission." - WSJ 2005/01/21 | |
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Pake
If you can read this.... RUN
join:2001-02-22
Huntersville, NC
 ·AT&T Southeast
| said by Qumahlin :said by jayperkins :Yes, but if you updated since then, you are under the new TOS. You agree to it on the download. They can force compliance by just telling everyone there is a big security hole and they must update. When you do, you are under the new TOS. incorrect again. As soon as you connect to the AIM network you are under the new ToS based on the fact that the ToS itself states that it is subject to change. I think the only way you can be subject to whatever a new ToS says is if they show you the new ToS and agree to it, since it is considered a legal binding contract.
So unless you are shown the new ToS before you sign on, they are still limited to the old ToS you agreed to. | |
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Qumahlin
Never Enough Time
Premium,MVM
join:2001-10-05
united state
| Re: just use trillian or gaim ou Must Agree to these Terms of Service to Use AIM Products
By using or registering for an AIM Product (defined below), you agree to these terms and conditions ("Terms of Service") and the AIM Privacy Policy. You agree to accept notices electronically. Each time you use an AIM Product, you reaffirm your acceptance of the then-current Terms of Service. If you do not wish to be bound by these Terms of Service, you may discontinue using the AIM Products.
Take note of this line which backs up everything I said
Each time you use an AIM Product, you reaffirm your acceptance of the then-current Terms of Service
So EVERYTIME you sign on AIM you are agreeing to whatever the current ToS is...
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Forum Posts:6000 | |
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JoeOnSunset
Doublethink Is Doubleplus Ungood.
Premium
join:2002-11-25
Ormond Beach, FL
| Re: just use trillian or gaim I'm always amazed on BBR at these lengthy conversations of the applicability of various pieces of TOS's. The fact of the matter is: the law and case law interprets and construes TOS's and does so differently in different jurisdictions. The terms they add are often disregarded.
Just because they say often, for example, that by using the service you agree to whatever the terms are, even if they've changed since they last time you saw them, doesn't mean it's so. They put that here hoping that later they'll win in court, but often they lose. | |
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Qumahlin
Never Enough Time
Premium,MVM
join:2001-10-05
united state
| Re: just use trillian or gaim said by JoeOnSunset :I'm always amazed on BBR at these lengthy conversations of the applicability of various pieces of TOS's. The fact of the matter is: the law and case law interprets and construes TOS's and does so differently in different jurisdictions. The terms they add are often disregarded. Just because they say often, for example, that by using the service you agree to whatever the terms are, even if they've changed since they last time you saw them, doesn't mean it's so. They put that here hoping that later they'll win in court, but often they lose. Can you give an example of "often they lose"? I am not aware of any major/current court case where a ToS/EULA has been found invalid.
The core reason being if you violate the ToS your not breaking the law so the only applicable punishment is you can be banned from the service, in which case you have no legal recourse as AOL is not legally required to allow you to use AIM.
I've seen this come up at Comcast. We have customer who will violate the ToS, argue with us that they never accepted the ToS or signed anything. Well to bad, you violated it, your service is terminated, go find another provider. If the customer has the money they can attempt to take us to court, but the bottom line is we don't have to offer them the service in the first place so it really doesn't matter if the ToS was invalid or not, they still aren't getting their service back.
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Forum Posts:6000 | |
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Pake
If you can read this.... RUN
join:2001-02-22
Huntersville, NC
·AT&T Southeast
| said by Qumahlin :ou Must Agree to these Terms of Service to Use AIM Products By using or registering for an AIM Product (defined below), you agree to these terms and conditions ("Terms of Service") and the AIM Privacy Policy. You agree to accept notices electronically. Each time you use an AIM Product, you reaffirm your acceptance of the then-current Terms of Service. If you do not wish to be bound by these Terms of Service, you may discontinue using the AIM Products. Take note of this line which backs up everything I said Each time you use an AIM Product, you reaffirm your acceptance of the then-current Terms of ServiceSo EVERYTIME you sign on AIM you are agreeing to whatever the current ToS is... Hmmmm, would be quite fun to take AOL to court for creating an easy to abuse loophole for themselves.
Maybe the broadband community should team up and try to fight this type of sneakiness. Many game companies (Blizzard, SOE, Mythic to name a few) already make you re-accept their ToS after patches, so it only seems fit that all companies should be required too if any changes occur. | |
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Qumahlin
Never Enough Time
Premium,MVM
join:2001-10-05
united state
| Re: just use trillian or gaim said by Pake :said by Qumahlin :ou Must Agree to these Terms of Service to Use AIM Products By using or registering for an AIM Product (defined below), you agree to these terms and conditions ("Terms of Service") and the AIM Privacy Policy. You agree to accept notices electronically. Each time you use an AIM Product, you reaffirm your acceptance of the then-current Terms of Service. If you do not wish to be bound by these Terms of Service, you may discontinue using the AIM Products. Take note of this line which backs up everything I said Each time you use an AIM Product, you reaffirm your acceptance of the then-current Terms of ServiceSo EVERYTIME you sign on AIM you are agreeing to whatever the current ToS is... Hmmmm, would be quite fun to take AOL to court for creating an easy to abuse loophole for themselves. Maybe the broadband community should team up and try to fight this type of sneakiness. Many game companies (Blizzard, SOE, Mythic to name a few) already make you re-accept their ToS after patches, so it only seems fit that all companies should be required too if any changes occur. You can't merely take a company to court based on their ToS for a service that is of optional use.
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Forum Posts:6000 | |
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Pake
If you can read this.... RUN
join:2001-02-22
Huntersville, NC
·AT&T Southeast
1 edit | Re: just use trillian or gaim said by Qumahlin :said by Pake :said by Qumahlin :ou Must Agree to these Terms of Service to Use AIM Products By using or registering for an AIM Product (defined below), you agree to these terms and conditions ("Terms of Service") and the AIM Privacy Policy. You agree to accept notices electronically. Each time you use an AIM Product, you reaffirm your acceptance of the then-current Terms of Service. If you do not wish to be bound by these Terms of Service, you may discontinue using the AIM Products. Take note of this line which backs up everything I said Each time you use an AIM Product, you reaffirm your acceptance of the then-current Terms of ServiceSo EVERYTIME you sign on AIM you are agreeing to whatever the current ToS is... Hmmmm, would be quite fun to take AOL to court for creating an easy to abuse loophole for themselves. Maybe the broadband community should team up and try to fight this type of sneakiness. Many game companies (Blizzard, SOE, Mythic to name a few) already make you re-accept their ToS after patches, so it only seems fit that all companies should be required too if any changes occur. You can't merely take a company to court based on their ToS for a service that is of optional use. Unfortunately the liberals have taught us that you can take someone to court for anything these days. | |
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Trejkaz
@trypticon.org
| It's not really about privacy though, it's about AOL's right to use the message contents.
Everyone should know that IM services are not private. They never have been!
If you use OpenPGP over Jabber you're pretty safe, but the other four IM services are different.
All AOL are really saying now is that they have permission to copy around your messages as if they're AOL's property. So the real outrage is, if you sent work material over it, AOL would have permission to send around your company information.  | |
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| | Zyniker
Zyniker
Premium
join:2004-12-25
San Pedro, CA
| Actually, you are perfectly fine so long as BOTH you and whomever you are talking to use Trillian (encrypted communication). That is why I use Trillian and my friends use Trillian (save my friends who use Mac...). I do not like AIM spying on my communications...I would rather use other chat networks, but AIM is by far the 800-lb gorilla in the chat industry... | |
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knightmb
Everybody Lies
join:2003-12-01
Franklin, TN | AOL & ICQ I wonder if that extends to ICQ since they own that one too? | |
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nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| Re: AOL & ICQ said by knightmb :I wonder if that extends to ICQ since they own that one too? Given that ICQ and AIM use the same transport networks, I'd hazzard to say "probably".
Chances are, this is geared to absolve AOL of responsibility if they ever are compelled to turn over AIM logs to law enforcement. AOL doesn't want to get sued under wiretap provisions of some states' telecom laws.
-tom
--
"Some people have morals, standards and ideals about quality, but I'm an American: I couldn't care less." --Tony Pierce (paraphrased) | |
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Defcon888
Premium
join:2003-07-22
San Bruno, CA |  AOHELL
But I've been getting these stupid AIM Alerts Errors..... meh | |
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bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Here | I use 4.8 And I use AOL+. | |
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Paulg
Displaced Yooper
Premium
join:2004-03-15
Neenah, WI
clubs: | no more AIM for me i just uninstalled it..... no way im putting up with that.
Paul | |
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Bill
Light Up The Halo
Premium,VIP
join:2001-12-09
clubs: | If you don't like it.... Don't use it.
They aren't forcing you to use their software. | |
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sirsloop
Premium
join:2004-02-18
New York, NY | dont really care... Do you really think they care about you talking dirty to your girlfriend?
Unless you have somthin to hide...LIKE MURDER OR KIDDY PRON....who cares? | |
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See 14 replies to this post |
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Logwind
join:2003-06-20 | Oh dear. Endless logs of "hey wutz upp nutin u" and "lol!!11"
Have fun, AOL.
--
I am eating an apple. | |
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| RockPro
join:2001-12-05
New York, NY | Re: Oh dear. Aol is for people who dont know how to use the net. | |
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rms01
join:2004-12-01
Salem, OH | I'll keep using it....but I'm dissapointed. Well, I would like to use MSN or Yahoo!, but it doesn't help when every one of your buddies just has AIM or AOL Instant Messenger.;) | |
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Chris 313
Come get some
Premium
join:2004-07-18
Houma, LA
clubs: | Re: I'll keep using it....but I'm dissapointed. It would be a grand day if the Major IM's (yahoo, MSN, AIM)merged and one program supported all IM's | |
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ablack6596
join:2005-01-28
Scarsdale, NY | Re: I'll keep using it....but I'm dissapointed. It's called Trillian. or Fire for Mac. | |
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theman23
Premium
join:2004-06-17
San Francisco, CA
clubs:
| Re: I'll keep using it....but I'm dissapointed. said by ablack6596 :It's called Trillian. or Fire for Mac. Actually, Trillian just lets you use the different networks from 1 application, it doesn't combine all the networks. | |
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thegathering
@68.48.x.x
| im sorry, but that is ghey ive found the only uses for AOL is to efficiently hog HD space, error education, and discovering the numerous sickening shades of blue. Oh, and i love how AOL is so fsking HACKABLE. This change officially puts AOL in the "UNRECOVERABLE TARDNESS" catagory along with IE protection, windows server apps, and SP2 firewall. I had better hopes for you AOL, despite the ownage you got from your intelligent customers, i really never had a problem with you outside of the horrible interface, size, and the target consumer being a n00b. Now you have done something to tick off users of all computer literacy. I HATE YOU.
Now everyone download Trillian. | |
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nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| Re: im sorry, but that is ghey said by thegathering:
Now everyone download Trillian.
Downloading Trillian buys you squat if you chat with people that either don't use Trillian or use it, but don't enable encryption. And frankly, the people that would enable encryption, have already downloaded Trillian or other third-party products.
-tom
--
"Some people have morals, standards and ideals about quality, but I'm an American: I couldn't care less." --Tony Pierce (paraphrased) | |
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| scomps
join:2001-06-05
Utica, NY
| this post is a good argument against anonymous posting.. erm.. and a good argument for genetic engineering and euthanasia. *grin*
oh... and it's "gay." the cutsey spelling is AOL-lame at it's best.
--
Scott Johnson -- developer of MWall. Contact me for more information. | |
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Kuberr
join:2004-11-26
Edison, NJ | Privilege, Not A Right The problem is that AIM is a privilege, and not a right. | |
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| jayperkins
join:2001-05-19
Brookhaven, MS
| Re: Privilege, Not A Right Well, much like watching "free" TV is a "Privilege". You are being paid in program content to sit through advertisements.
AOL gets paid every time you seen an advertisement on the messenger screen or content. Now, we have a CHOICE to use or not use the service.
I suspect that when people realize their "hot chat" with the current girlfriend can be displayed 5, 10 oir 15 years from now in a movie, tv show, internet site, whatever... that most people will choose not to use that service. | |
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rit56
join:2000-12-01
New York, NY | IM what's better trillian or gaim? | |
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| biometric2
join:2004-09-16
San Martin, CA | Re: IM NO MORE AOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | |
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xillusionx
| Re: IM GAIM has higher encryption bit.
Trillian only goes to 128bit if i am not mistaken.
GAIM goes to 4096bit
-illusion | |
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xillusionx
| Re: IM I am said to say that this might be the end of my usage of trillian since aol has went this step. I have had to convert to gaim for more secure communications. I will force anyone who wants to talk to my on aim to convert or I will not talk to them on AOL. Risk is to high
-illusion | |
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jayperkins
join:2001-05-19
Brookhaven, MS
| AOL headed downhill again I can only conclude that AOL has decided to shut down and for the last few years has been trying to reduce the size of its user base. No other conclusion seems to logically explain policies like this and many others.
Then again, that doesn't explain the 83 AOL CD's that I have amassed from being on their mail list.
After aol folds, I will put the whole collection on ebay.
There is a silver lining! | |
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| rrrjr
join:2000-11-20
U.S.A / U.K.
| Re: AOL headed downhill again said by jayperkins :...Then again, that doesn't explain the 83 AOL CD's that I have amassed from being on their mail list. After aol folds, I will put the whole collection on ebay....... you and 100 million others who have saved all the disks they've recieved from AOL;) | |
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pokesph
It Is Almost Fast
Premium
join:2001-06-25
Sacramento, CA
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: AOL headed downhill again OH NO.. what would i do if AOHell closed down and stopped sending out those wonderfull cd's?
I'd be FORCED to BUY coasters instead of using my free AOHell provided, double-sided coasters.
what's this world coming too...
--
Webmaster Steve
- - - - - - - - - - - -
»ppnhosting.com
»sphenterprizes.com
»pokemonpalace.net | |
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guthrieboi
join:2005-02-05
Guthrie, OK
| Sad reality..... Privacy is only a myth. If they want to copy and give something whether it be to the government or whomever there is nothing you can do because odds are you won't know until it's already too late. Then, once you're implicated in something or find out about it there's not much you can do unless you just happen to have a wheelbarrow full of money sitting in your living room that you can use to hire a lawyer to help you at least lose in style. | |
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Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-01
IA
·Mediacom
| !
--
Someone who finds a job they love will never work a day in their life. | |
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Bond0072
@141.153.x.x | What are you hiding What are all you guys who need to encrypt shit talking about that you have to hide it? You a terrorist? Or just paranoid? | |
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| ReneM
join:2003-07-18
Cockeysville, MD | Re: What are you hiding I could write a piece about freedoms, privacy, rights, liberties, choices, but that would be lost on you. | |
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Cuchulainn
The Roar of the Masses Could be Farts
join:2000-11-09
Chevy Chase, MD
 ·Verizon FIOS
| said by Bond0072:
What are all you guys who need to encrypt shit talking about that you have to hide it? You a terrorist? Or just paranoid?
That's rich coming from someone who has to resort to primitive obscenities to make his point. Oh, and did I mention you don't even have the cojones to register?
--
Sure eagles can fly high. But weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. | |
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lyls
@tele.dk | Re: What are you hiding oh yeah wow he said shit thats so offensive and terrible.... cmon man he might be an idiot but i dont think you come off as anymore intelligent than him | |
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JoeOnSunset
Doublethink Is Doubleplus Ungood.
Premium
join:2002-11-25
Ormond Beach, FL | Re: What are you hiding More offensive to me than his inclusion of profanities is your exclusion of punctuation. (Okay, you did throw in five periods. I guess you were going for an ellipsis there.) | |
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Cuchulainn
The Roar of the Masses Could be Farts
join:2000-11-09
Chevy Chase, MD
·Verizon FIOS
| I don't need to prove my intelligence to you or anyone in this forum. My point was if monsieur is so bold, he should register and give the world an idea of who he is.
--
Sure eagles can fly high. But weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. | |
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HardwareGeek
join:2003-11-15
Brooklyn, NY
1 edit | TOS Doesn't say what News Story Implys. It is sad that BBR is posting this the way they have. No where in the TOS does it say what the Poster of the news is implying. Read the ENTIRE TOS not just the part that will get people worried and concerned. You guys are taking the AIM TOS out of context and it's sad and if sites continue to do this I can see more APPLE type lawsuits popping up.
--
Email/MSN: Michael at hardwaregeeks.com
AIM: MikeR35292 | |
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| jayperkins
join:2001-05-19
Brookhaven, MS
| Re: TOS Doesn't say what News Story Implys. HardwareGeek,
How do you interpret this paragraph from the TOS?
Although you or the owner of the Content retain ownership of all right, title and interest in Content that you post to any AIM Product, AOL owns all right, title and interest in any compilation, collective work or other derivative work created by AOL using or incorporating this Content. In addition, by posting Content on an AIM Product, you grant AOL, its parent, affiliates, subsidiaries, assigns, agents and licensees the irrevocable, perpetual, worldwide right to reproduce, display, perform, distribute, adapt and promote this Content in any medium. You waive any right to privacy. You waive any right to inspect or approve uses of the Content or to be compensated for any such uses. | |
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HardwareGeek
join:2003-11-15
Brooklyn, NY
| Re: TOS Doesn't say what News Story Implys. That says. That I wave any privacy rights I may think I have when it comes to the content they display on my Screen. Also I wave the right on any content I post on their Public Forums or Chats. Doesn't say anything about Private Messaging. Also read their Privacy Policy.
--
Email/MSN: Michael at hardwaregeeks.comAIM: MikeR35292 | |
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| | | jayperkins
join:2001-05-19
Brookhaven, MS
| Re: TOS Doesn't say what News Story Implys. From »www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1775830,00.asp
"However, Weinstein's stance that user-to-user IM communications are exempt from the controversial clause isn't sitting well with legal experts.
Rob Hyndman, a technology lawyer based in Ontario, pointed out that the terms of service covers the entire AIM product and does not explicitly exclude instant messaging.
"I think the AOLs of the world don't take the impact their TOS [terms of service] have on users seriously enough, generally because they have market power and the customer doesn't," Hyndman told eWEEK.com, arguing that the AIM terms of service appears all-encompassing.
"To be fair to them, I think the errors are innocent, and more the result of sloppy drafting and a reflexively heavy-handed approach to drafting TOS," he said.
Hyndman also took issue with Weinstein's explanation that the heading "Content Your Post" and the use of the word "post" automatically exclude IM conversations. "They seem to say that using that verb means their privacy language only applies to contributions to public forums, i.e. where one 'posts.' But if that's true, why do the TOS use the verb 'post' when referring to all AIM products, if not all AIM products can or do 'post'?" he asked.
In addition, he pointed to the very last line in the terms of service, which reads: "The section headings used herein are for convenience only and shall not be given any legal import." That line, Hyndman asserted, renders Weinstein's explanation weak.
"Many lawyers' natural tendency, especially when drafting to the retail market, is to put as much 'oomph' in the TOS as possible from their client's perspective. They make it as broad as possible, essentially. Until quite recently, there really was no way for customers to respond to this," Hyndman added.
" | |
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| | | jayperkins
join:2001-05-19
Brookhaven, MS | Re: privacy policy.
A privacy policy separate from the agreement is not binding in the legal sense. Just a statement of policy.
My only point is, the TOS does seem say what the story implies. | |
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ctceo
Premium
join:2001-04-26
South Bend, IN
clubs: | Waiver You CAN NOT according to law waive certain rights. Regardless if they have you sign anything. | |
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rboe18
join:2004-05-19
Everett, WA
| 3rd party client banning? Has any1 else had their AIM accnt banned/deactivated lately without any justification? Just weeks ago my AIM accnt was apparently banned or needed some extra activation crap done to it to get it back online, however I lost my email address that was needed to reset the accnt and therefore took this as a ban. Ever since initially creating that particular accnt over a year ago I was using Miranda IM with the latest TOC protocol implementation.. There was a thread on this issue over at Miranda's official forums and there was several ppl there who were going through the same ordeal, unfortunately that thread is no longer active since they switched over to new board software. | |
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