 
bokamba
Chengdu Rocks
Premium
join:2002-04-05
Falls Church, VA | At least they may get some use out of it that way It would contribute to the stability of the power grid if power companies could do that, but they'll have a hard time convincing people to let them unless they cut their rates. | |
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 | Nighttime
join:2001-11-30
| Re: At least they may get some use out of it that Already have stuff like that in California. If you want a lower rate and can cut back when ask under power stages. Your bill goes down.
As usual it more in the "Control" department that they like. Both shutting off stuff and reading power meters. And charging you for it!
Love the bit about rural. Which leave a lot of the screemers that want high speed connection out in the boonies or non covere areas, still out in the cold. And kills one of the "major benifits" they love to bring up.
Actually if they would "Clean up" the grid would be better off than putting a layer of worthless tech on a broken road. Kind of like spraying tar or oil on a road with cracks and potholes. Looks nice but totaly non functional. | |
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xirian
Premium
join:2003-01-26
Beacon, NY | what no Why would I want them to be able to turn off my cooling system when it is hot? thats just stupid. | |
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join:2001-11-30 | Re: what no Actualy most modern car's have a automatic turnoff for the compressor to shut it off on idle and acceleration. And that also what the AC button does also.
But would rather have the final desision on cutting back. | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: what no The plans that have been circulated almost always involve voluntary participation by the end-user. You can either choose to let the utility shut off your A/C for 20 minutes or so once per day, or not. Of course, if you choose not to let that happen, you're probably in a higher rate bracket.
As a way to handle sudden peaks, I can see this, but does it really shift that much load? I mean, maybe my A/C runs 75% of the time on the hottest day, but won't a 20 minute shutoff just be followed by enough continuous running that it won't make a real difference in load overall?
(Above is a figure of speech--I don't have home A/C.)
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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fireflier
Coffee. . .Need Coffee
Premium
join:2001-05-25
Limbo
 ·Skype
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: what no said by calvoiper  :As a way to handle sudden peaks, I can see this, but does it really shift that much load? I mean, maybe my A/C runs 75% of the time on the hottest day, but won't a 20 minute shutoff just be followed by enough continuous running that it won't make a real difference in load overall? Most electric utilities reach a peak between the hours of 17:00 and 20:00 in summer. Being able to turn off hundreds of HVAC units for 20 minutes in an offset fashion can shave the top of the peak off and permits the utility to avoid running expensive peaking capacity (e.g. pumped storage, combustion turbine, etc.) or purchasing expensive off-system energy (if any is even available).
Once the peak has passed, the staggered HVAC control can be returned to normal. Yes, many units will be running and will run for longer periods of time to make up for the lack of air conditioning during the 20 minute window, but if it's after peak the utility can usually handle it.
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When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other. | |
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| contsole
Premium
join:2003-12-30
Bloomfield, CT
| My brother allowed his utility to install load shed equipment at his house. They used a VHF radio rather than bpl. They are permitted to dump a load for a maximum of 15 minutes during a 2 hour period. In exchange for this ability they rebate $30 per month. (10 for a/c, 10 for hot water heater, 10 for pool pump). Seems fair to me. If you don't like it, they will stop using it. | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: what no Yes, that's the type of voluntary participation that makes much sense. Note particularly that this is fairly easily accomplished using low-bandwidth radio control--not really much of a major motivating factor for broadband deployment, though it probably works to justify it to technically ignorant regulators whose biggest venture into hardware was changing the ribbon on their Smith-Corona portable typewriter in college....
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA
| How about we fix the energy situtation... before giving power providers and regulators something else to completely F up?
Maybe there are island where they have everything working to a T and can look at something new...but being in California I see this (at least here) as nothing but another nightmare waiting to happen. Not only problems with emergency services and HAMs but if we can't even get reliable power at something less than bend-over pricing...I have little faith in them adding ISP to their list of services.
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Don't get it, demand it! The Anime Network www.theanimenetwork.com | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: How about we fix the energy situtation... In reality, the power companies are desperate for something else to sell, hopefully something with unregulated profits.
Unlike the telcos, power companies only have one product to sell: a kilowatt of power. Over the years, they've tried to add "demand side management" services, but really, how smart is it to have your key new product be a way for customers to use less of your base product?
Simply put, the power companies are chafing under (effective) regulation, want to see something like dot-com profits, and are willing to try darn near anything.
The result: A wild willingness to take risks. The management philosophy of power companies today is like savings and loans prior to their deregulation. We've already seen in California what this mad rush can lead to (witness PG&E bankruptcy) and we'll see more wacky risks.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA
| Re: How about we fix the energy situtation... WHen I see stupid crap likeSouthern California Edison advertising a product for which there are no competitors...including television and even paying to have Anaheim Stadium called Edison Field I'm reluctant to let them do anything else.
When they pull their heads out of their ass and quit wasting money then cryin' to the PUC for rate increases...I'd be willing to give them a shot with BPL (IF the HAM issues are addressed).
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Don't get it, demand it! The Anime Network www.theanimenetwork.com | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA | Re: How about we fix the energy situtation... I wasn't trying to say that DSM isn't a good idea--but rather that it alone is hardly a "new product" that grows your business....
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Slicing Bread with a Chainsaw BPL for utility control is overkill. There's low bandwidth automatic meter reading systems in operation today that use PLC (the original low speed powerline network that is the predecessor to BPL) and don't interfere and are economically viable in rural areas. PPL has this running in PA, everywhere from center city to the boonies, and you don't see repeaters all over the place like you would with BPL. | |
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fireflier
Coffee. . .Need Coffee
Premium
join:2001-05-25
Limbo
·Skype
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Slicing Bread with a Chainsaw Low bandwidth channels couldn't handle video surveillance at critical substations that some utilities may want to monitor for vandalism/terrorism/damage.
I'm not saying I think BPL is a good thing to roll out for consumer sales. In fact, I don't and I believe consumer BPL use can negatively impact reliability in some cases, but it can improve system reliability if used by the utility itself. A related but much cruder system--Power line carrier is already being used for transmission control systems. Security and high data telemetry are just a couple of useful examples.
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When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other. | |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| Re: Slicing Bread with a Chainsaw said by fireflier :Low bandwidth channels couldn't handle video surveillance at critical substations that some utilities may want to monitor for vandalism/terrorism/damage. True, but BPL isn't a long haul technology. Chances are if they are injecting BPL at a substation for distribution on medium voltage lines, they are going to be backhauling the data via fiber or telco facilities at that point. To carry megs of video back to a network operations center via BPL would be costly. | |
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fireflier
Coffee. . .Need Coffee
Premium
join:2001-05-25
Limbo
·Skype
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Slicing Bread with a Chainsaw Utilities sometimes use OPGW (fiber embedded static wire) on the transmission level for various bulk purposes (including commercial telecom networks on occasion) so that wouldn't present a significant obstacle if they wanted to pursue it. But I'd still rather see the fiber used for utility infrastructure and not for consumers. Reliability of the electric system should be top priority.
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When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other. | |
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rbb
join:2000-09-17
Fairfax Station, VA | The truth comes out... All your air conditioners are belong to us  | |
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Sr Tech
Premium
join:2003-01-19
New Fairfield, CT | Re: The truth comes out... I keep getting these letters from Cool Sentry, They add a device to MY ac to cut it back on high power draws I do not respond to them as I feel the same above. Why shut my system down when it is hot out. | |
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Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
edit:
March 7th, @06:18PM
| har-de-har-har yet again and I was accused of being a aluminum Hat loony when I suggested this before and now the truth is coming out.
"we are controlling your televion......" | |
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hrobins
Premium
join:2000-10-15
Regina, SK
clubs: | They already do that I think that they are blow smoke on the control issue.
Georgia Power if you sign up for it, then can shut down you your A/C for 10-15 mins during high use periods | |
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Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
| What if PETA got their hand on BPL controlled cooking devices.
OH NO!!!!!! he's cooking a beef steak...Shut Him Down! SHUT HIM DOWN!!!!! THE MONSTER, oh I think I will SCREAM.
GASP, look he wears leather shoes; oh the inhumanity of it all.
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Low voltage Tech's are wimps, Real tech's use 45 pound filament transformers, plate voltages no less then 2400 volts with at least 10 amp's lighting 8877 triodes...BPL I'm coming to get you. | |
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hihardee67
@midco.net | Re: What if trigild to buy hardee's | |
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Utilities Weigh in on BPL