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  ropeguru Premium join:2001-01-25 Bridgeport, WV clubs: | This can be taken care of... by the homeowners going to their Association meetings and voting the bastards out. They have that right.. -- FWD#: 223611 | |
|  |   oliphant I Have 8 Boobies Premium join:2004-11-26 Corona, CA | Re: This can be taken care of... It's not a matter of that...but the convenants and what deal the 'corporation' that is the HOA or even the developer struck with the provider. -- Don't get it, demand it! The Anime Network www.theanimenetwork.com | |
|  |  |   technick Premium join:2000-12-16 Loganville, GA
| Re: This can be taken care of... Yea I agree, it makes me as nervous as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. But any HOA has the power to amend the covenants, and change the rules. I hate crappy HOA's! My current HOA is trying hard, but the 3 previous HOA yearly members didn't do crap. =\, sorry if I sound bitter about it. Well anyways, they can kick them out if they amend the HOA. -- "Our greatest glory consists not in never falling, but in rising everytime we fall." - Confucius - - - - - - - - - - - Streamfire.net- - AIM - CoNFuCiUsNiCk | |
|  |  RicoCorinth
join:2005-03-03 Privatopia
1 edit | Re: This can be taken care of... by voting? NOT!!! During the period of developer control, the HOA is just a facade.
The developer often has more units/lots than the homeowners, so it has absolute control of the private homeowner association government it has created -- and its subjects -- because the developer can just cast its votes in favor of its own people.
The developer typically has three votes for each unit/lot it owns, while the homeowners each only get one vote per property (not per adult citizen). (HOAs are undemocratic. Ask any disenfranchised renter.)
'Your' elected government officials have created this situation, by passing laws that create the preceding, on behalf of developers. Many developers are major donors to political campaigns, and they have powerful organizations like the Urban Land Institute, that bribe and coerce 'our' elected government officials.
Do you think HOA problems are just limited to developers forcing their subjects to pay for certain ISPs? Consider this: if you don't pay your association fees, the HOA forecloses on your home to collect them -- in essence, forcing the sale of 'your' home because you failed to pay for (among other things) Internet service!
The original story: »www.azcentral.com/arizonarepubli···red.html
-- Concerned Homeowners »members.cox.net/concernedhomeowners/ | |
|  |  |  Spadesman
join:2004-02-02 Grand Prairie, TX
| Re: This can be taken care of... by voting? NOT!!! RicoCorinth,
You reminded me something about foreclosure. I think that is a core issue of groups trying to fight the HOA's. The HOA can foreclose on a home WITHOUT THE ORDER OF A JUDGE. If I recall this against the law, but as I said their is a lobby group, not the Urban Land Institute. that helps keep this going.
Here are some links to get you started.
»money.cnn.com/2004/03/09/pf/your···ciation/ »www.ahrc.com/new/index.php/src/home »pvtgov.org/pvtgov/ | |
|   oliphant I Have 8 Boobies Premium join:2004-11-26 Corona, CA 1 edit | That's the case in OC ...in Ladera Ranch in south OC. You pay for Cox whether you like it or not, whether you actually use it or not. Want SBC...tough...you can pay for both. -- Don't get it, demand it! The Anime Network www.theanimenetwork.com | |
|  |   RR Conductor RailRoadDude Premium join:2002-04-02 Redwood Valley, CA | Re: That's the case in OC That stinks! | |
|  |  |   oliphant I Have 8 Boobies Premium join:2004-11-26 Corona, CA | Re: That's the case in OC Yeah, but then again, if you have $600K+ for a house, I guess they figure you can cough up $140/mo in association dues and have $20 left over for SBC. -- Don't get it, demand it! The Anime Network www.theanimenetwork.com | |
|  |  |  |   RR Conductor RailRoadDude Premium join:2002-04-02 Redwood Valley, CA
·Comcast
| Re: That's the case in OC California home prices are horrible! 600K, OUCH ! The only places you can afford any more are in the high desert, central valley, the Redding, Chico and Marysville areas and NE CA (Alturas, McCloud). | |
|  |  |  |  |   oliphant I Have 8 Boobies Premium join:2004-11-26 Corona, CA
| Re: That's the case in OC Which is why I don't live in OC anymore But west RCo is getting to be just as bad.
The concept of spending $450K and ending up with a 1000sqft dump in the worst part of the worst city didn't sit well with my wallet. Want a "normal" house that's 1800sqft or a bit bigger with (dare I say it) a yard and driveway...$500-$900K depending on the city. Then there's Newport...add another zero. -- Don't get it, demand it! The Anime Network www.theanimenetwork.com | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   RR Conductor RailRoadDude Premium join:2002-04-02 Redwood Valley, CA | Re: That's the case in OC It's a shame too, I love CA, and I will stay here, but they need to do something about the home prices! I mean, it's great if you own a home, you make more money, but first time buyers are getting shut out of the market. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   oliphant I Have 8 Boobies Premium join:2004-11-26 Corona, CA
1 edit | Re: That's the case in OC Heck at the way things are going up, even previous owners are having a hard time. I think it's topography as much as it being OC. With the mountains just to the east, it creates a sort of island of demand since you can't just be another 5 miles away. The other side of the mountain like where I am, turns a 5mi commute into a 25mi commute in some of the worst traffic in SoCal. If they had more routes (like the proposed tunnel or another toll road over the mtn.) in and out of the county I think prices would stabilize a bit since you would have more supply and west RCo would continue increasing.
In the meantime...yep...OC buy-in is getting steeper and steeper. -- Don't get it, demand it! The Anime Network www.theanimenetwork.com | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   3SGTE ST215W Premium,MVM join:2000-11-23 there clubs: | Re: That's the case in OC It sounds like it is cheaper to buy land in Japan.
Having said that there is another paralell there too...
Can you say bubble? -- The preceeding post may contain dry humor. Insert intelligent text here. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  Zorglub
join:2000-11-18 Fremont, CA | Re: That's the case in OC Bubble no, supply and demand yes. Land is a finite resource out here (ocean to the west, moutains to the east), while population growth shows no end in sight. So, as long as the demand for housing outstrips the supply, prices will go up. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   Alan Greenspan
@sonnet.com
| Re: That's the case in OC Not true. The biggest factor in home prices is not supply and demand of homes, it is supply and demand of dollars. Meaning, it is interest rates, because most of a home's purchase price is borrowed money. A really big increase in interest rates will shut down your home prices overnight.
And yes, there is a bubble. Hope you're not in it. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  Zorglub
join:2000-11-18 Fremont, CA
| Re: That's the case in OC Duh, a really big increase in interest rates would shut all homes sales overnight... Big wooptidoo.
Supply and demand of dollars... I'm not sure that actually means anything.
While CA home prices could be headed down short term, long term, they have nowhere to go but up. Reason, supply and demand. So long as there is population growth in CA, prices have nowhere to go but up.
Now, will my house appreciate another 50% in the next five years, I really doubt so. Could my house go down in the next five years? Sure, it's possible. But at the end of the day, it'll still gonna go up in the next 20. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   3SGTE ST215W Premium,MVM join:2000-11-23 there clubs:
| Re: That's the case in OC said by Zorglub : But at the end of the day, it'll still gonna go up in the next 20. That is the problem after a bubble. After the correction comes, and the prices are not likely to rise as fast as quickly.
Sure they will rise again. Say they start rising from the new value of the house, which may be 50% of the peak value. -- The preceeding post may contain dry humor. Insert intelligent text here. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  Zorglub
join:2000-11-18 Fremont, CA | Re: That's the case in OC Aside from a huge earthquake or a complete economic meltdown, a 50% decrease in house value is very unlikely IMHO. If prices go down 10% in the next couple years, that might be the end of it. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   HousePoor
@159.83.x.x | Tell me about it. I make over 100K/year and have 50K for a down and I still can't get into anything in an area I'd want to live in. I figure I'll have to wait until I retire to buy a home somewhere affordable. | |
|  joebear29
join:2003-07-20 Alabaster, AL | This is why homeowner's association suck This is why homeowner's association suck, and why I avoided them when I bought my house.
I did not go to the trouble to buy a house so that someone else could tell me what ISP to use, when to cut the grass or rake the leaves. | |
|  |   oliphant I Have 8 Boobies Premium join:2004-11-26 Corona, CA
1 edit | Re: This is why homeowner's association suck Fortunately, CC&R's and other requirements are disclosed prior to sale (by law). People know they're going to get that hassle when they buy...so while lame...it's still on the buyer to make the decision on whether to know to accept that lameness. -- Don't get it, demand it! The Anime Network www.theanimenetwork.com | |
|  |   RR Conductor RailRoadDude Premium join:2002-04-02 Redwood Valley, CA
·Comcast
| We didn't have a choice with last two houses my parents have bought (Pocatello, Idaho, 1990-96, and the current one in Redwood Valley, CA, 96-present), they came with the package, and they do keep some of the area around (the pic I have included, that's looking out towards Ukiah from just outside their back yard) from being developed into vineyards or homes, a good thing  -- See the BOOMING railroads of today,and tommorrow@ »www.gorail.org/See HEAVY DUTY freight and passenger action @ the Galesburg, IL Rail Cam!»205.245.189.161:1100/ See my Familys gorgeous home of Mendocino County@»www.gomendo.com | |
|  |  |   calvoiper
join:2003-03-31 Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: This is why homeowner's association suck said by RR Conductor :We didn't have a choice with last two houses my parents have bought .... Horsehockey.
You had a choice whether to buy the houses or not.
I'm sick and tired of people voluntarily entering into contractual agreements and then whining about the terms.
If people resist buying into HOAs where they have bad agreements like the ones described here, the practice will whither. Instead, people make decisions and then whine about how "somebody" should "save" them from the consequences of their own actions.
calvoiper -- VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
|  |  |  |   RR Conductor RailRoadDude Premium join:2002-04-02 Redwood Valley, CA | Re: This is why homeowner's association suck Geeeez, calm down there! We wanted the homes, so no, we didn't have a choice if we wanted those homes. What bed did you wake up on the wrong side of? | |
|  |  |  |  |   calvoiper
join:2003-03-31 Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: This is why homeowner's association suck Face it. You made the choice to buy the home. (And you justified it nicely with the picture.)
My problem is that people constantly make choices and then claim that they didn't have any choice, or they try to escape the consequences of their choice. It's a philosophical thing involving specious criticism of the capitalist system and the constant attempt of some political groups to "excuse" or "ignore" the concept of individual responsibility.
You may not have had a choice to buy the homes without the HOAs, just as you may not have a choice to buy a Cadillac without a sound system--but you still had the choice whether to buy or not, and it's that choice that causes the market to respond to the wants of the people.
calvoiper -- VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   RR Conductor RailRoadDude Premium join:2002-04-02 Redwood Valley, CA | Re: This is why homeowner's association suck You have ready wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much into my post, take a chill pill there, the uptight richies in Belvedere got ya uptight? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   calvoiper
join:2003-03-31 Belvedere Tiburon, CA | Re: This is why homeowner's association suck Nah. It's the whiny socialists who populate most of Marin County....
calvoiper -- VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
|  |  |  |  |   calvoiper
join:2003-03-31 Belvedere Tiburon, CA 1 edit | -oops- -duplicate post deleted- | |
|  |   shimonmor
join:2000-12-30 Sedro Woolley, WA
·wavebroadband
| said by joebear29 :This is why homeowner's association suck I agree 100%. The benefits are far outweighed by the hassle and grief caused by HOA. I will never buy another home with a HOA. Yes, people can eventually try to vote to change the rules but I've found with our HOA that you can't get anything done. Half the owners are apathetic and never come to a meeting and won't vote on anything. The other half are people who are afraid of anyone tampering with their precious HOA rules and regs and are HOA nazis. I've given up dealing with the HOA and have taken the stance of trying to convince everyone to vote to dissolve the HOA...which, of course, will never happen.
Anyway, people are made aware of all the rules before they buy the home but unfortunately, as in my case, you are so frazzled by the whole process (especially if it's your first home) that it's hard to absorb and realize the implications of the covenants. But, the bottom line in my opinion is buyer beware. The printing is on the package. Live and learn. I sure did. | |
|  |  |   oliphant I Have 8 Boobies Premium join:2004-11-26 Corona, CA
| Re: This is why homeowner's association suck The hardest part is if you want to get into an area, sometimes there are nothing but HOA's. I live in an HOA area and luckily ours is very tolerant and pretty much sticks to mowing the common areas and keeping the pools clean and the gym open and making sure no one paints their house purple with stripes.
But some HOAs in my area, they go as far as writing people up for tiny oil stains or those portable basketball hoops in the driveway and no flowers in the front flower beds.
Then there's always the crazy lady on the board who is going to tell everyone how to live, and let her buddies get away with murder. -- Don't get it, demand it! The Anime Network www.theanimenetwork.com | |
|  |  |   bistro777 Donuts-Is There Anything They Can't Do? Premium join:2002-02-07 Englewood, CO
| Over 40% of new housing in the US is now developed as some form of association ownership (HOA/UOA). The counties love it because, in many instances, the county gains green space and all the extra tax dollars while assuming no obligation or liability for maintenance. In fact, many new townhome communities are now formed as condominium associations - traditional townhome-style construction, but with all the roads, etc. the responsibility of the owners. Again, the counties gain high-density tax dollars and assume no costs for any maintenance and repairs. (And that makes it r-e-a-l easy for developers to get their permits, etc.)
"Buyer beware" applies to just about everything, which is why most HOA/UOA community formats have a ten-day "free look" period (rather than just three days) so prospective purchasers can review the declaration and bylaws. Some communities work well - it all depends on the owners - and others do not, whether due to apathy, scofflaws or whatever. I've owned homes in three HOAs and experienced varying degrees of satisfaction - - which is why I am now the board president of my HOA...trying to instill some common sense into a few folks. (Isn't working.) 
"There are no foreign lands. It is the traveler only who is foreign." - Robert Louis Stevenson (1850-1894)
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|  |  |  |  RicoCorinth
join:2005-03-03 Privatopia
4 edits | Re: This is why homeowner's association suck
 Local American governments with separated powers, and checks and balances between the branches, are being replaced with HOAs. |
said by bistro777 :Over 40% of new housing in the US is now developed as some form of association ownership (HOA/UOA). The counties love it because, in many instances, the county gains green space and all the extra tax dollars while assuming no obligation or liability for maintenance. The county doesn't gain any green space. The green space is already there before local governments let developers create common interest developments (the kind with HOAs).
No matter what kind of developments these governments approve, they can still set aside as much green space as they want. The difference is that the green space in areas with traditional developments is recognized, in every way, as public. The green space in areas with common interest developments (CIDs) is labeled "private".
This is often a questionable label, from a realistic standpoint, but it lets developers include the green space as part of the development. That increases the size of the development, and lets the developers squeeze in more homes, in the area in which they are actually building, while claiming the density of the entire development (including the green space) is within the law. This becomes even more egregious in light of the fact that the developers are the ones that had their servants in government change the definition of density to include the total number of homes divided by the area of the entire development, including the "private" green space.
This reclassification of public roads, street lights, parks, drainage ponds, etc. -- as "private" -- lets local governments claim they're not responsible for these "private" things.
Hence, the tax discrimination. Homeowners in traditional developments pay the same property tax as home 'owners' in CIDs. This property tax pays for public roads, street lights, parks, tennis courts, swimming pools, etc. Meanwhile, double-taxed CID 'owners' also pay for their 'own' roads, street lights, parks, "semi-private pools", lakes, dams, patrol deputies...
Professor McKenzie, author of Privatopia, wrote, "Sooner or later, owners will realize that local and state governments are balancing their budgets on the backs of CID residents. That could open up a full public policy debate over the role of CIDs that should have happened 20 years ago." (Evan McKenzie, Common Ground, July/August, 2000)
Shu Bartholomew, host of the On The Commons radio show, wrote: "Local municipalities have balanced their budgets by mandating associations, shunting of much of their responsibilities on the private sector." (6/24/03)
said by bistro777 :In fact, many new townhome communities are now formed as condominium associations - traditional townhome-style construction, but with all the roads, etc. the responsibility of the owners. Again, the counties gain high-density tax dollars and assume no costs for any maintenance and repairs. And they let the developers increase their profit percentage by building cheap, so-called "private", roads that don't comply with county standards. Later, if the home 'owners' want to get rid of 'their' HOA, the local governments refuse to take over the "private" roads, claiming the roads don't come up to the governments' standards.
said by bistro777 :(And that makes it r-e-a-l easy for developers to get their permits, etc.) Note that developers can't create CIDs without those permits, meaning that 'our' governments are letting developers create them the way they are.
Then 'our' elected government officials claim it's not their place to interfere, as if they're innocent bystanders.
said by bistro777 :"Buyer beware" applies to just about everything, According to the law.com Law Dictionary, "Since implied warranties (assumed quality of goods) and consumer protections have come upon the legal landscape, the seller is held to a higher standard of disclosure than 'buyer beware' and has responsibility for defects which could not be noted by casual inspection ..."
Professor McKenzie's "emphasis is on the fact that particular forms of CID housing with obvious deficiencies have been replicated endlessly with so little public oversight." [Privatopia: Homeowner Associations and the Rise of Residential Private Government, Yale University Press, 28]
Research (e.g., Professor Alexander's) has shown that these "obvious deficiencies" aren't recognized by the vast majority of homebuyers. This is because they can generally "not be noted by casual inspection."
Therefore, "buyer beware" applies to CID housing only as a result of 'our' governments' refusal to enact housing consumer protection laws, in the face of opposition from powerful special interests, and the acquiescence of 'our' willfully blind, elected government officials.
said by bistro777 :which is why most HOA/UOA community formats have a ten-day "free look" period (rather than just three days) so prospective purchasers can review the declaration and bylaws. What is this "'free look' period"? Most homebuyers aren't shown the governing documents -- which are long and full of legalese -- until closing, at which point they're shown a lot of other documents.
said by bistro777 :Some communities work well - it all depends on the owners - It all depends on how you define, "well". None of the following "depends on the owners".
James Madison wrote in Federalist #47, The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, selfappointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny.
Professor McKenzie wrote, In CIDs, power is unitary. The board cites violators and holds the hearings that constitute the trial. [Privatopia, 134]
This would disturb Madison, because he wrote, No man is allowed to be a judge in his own cause, because his interest would certainly bias his judgment, and, not improbably, corrupt his integrity, in Federalist No. 10.
According to Barton & Silverman, Common interest homeowners associations have rule enforcement powers that are commonly exercised in ways that are offensive to normal conceptions of due process of law and the separation of powers. The association board passes rules, prosecutes violators, and then judges the guilt or innocence of the people involved. [Barton & Silverman, Common Interest Communities: Private Governments and the Public Interest, 36]
Madisons ideas were not new.
Montesquieu wrote, in The Spirit of the Laws, There is no liberty, if the power of judging be not separated from the legislative and executive powers. Were it joined with the legislative, the life and liberty of the subject would be exposed to arbitrary control, for the judge would then be the legislator. Were it joined to the executive power, the judge might behave with all the violence of an oppressor.
He, in turn, borrowed heavily from others that came before.
This is not rocket science.
Madison declared, in Federalist No. 47, no political truth is certainly of greater intrinsic value. (emph. added)
Nevertheless, our representatives let forprofit developers create these governments, so that the developer can exercise tyrannous control.
Stanley Scott noticed this. He wrote, These would be established by the developers and presided over by private, pseudolegislative bodies subject to deliberate manipulation. [Stanley Scott, The Homes Association: Will Private Government Serve the Public Interest?, February, 1967]
Note Scotts question in the title. Forprofit developers exist for one goal: profit maximization. They are not interested in any part of the public interest that does not support that goal.
Home owners can thank their willfuly blind representatives for kowtowing to the developers, at every turn, and allowing them to rape the public interest. -- Concerned Homeowners | |
|  |  |  |  |   bistro777 Donuts-Is There Anything They Can't Do? Premium join:2002-02-07 Englewood, CO
| Re: This is why homeowner's association suck said by RicoCorinth :
The county doesn't gain any green space. The green space is already there before local governments let developers create common interest developments (the kind with HOAs).
Depending on the form of community permitted by the municipality, an "open development," HOA-style or UOA-style of community may include public greenspace and improvements and/or "trade-offs" in order to receive governmental approval. If a trade-off is done, the space already there was (most likely) private property and not open to the public; hence the gain to the public in that regard.
said by RicoCorinth : This is often a questionable label, from a realistic standpoint, but it lets developers include the green space as part of the development. That increases the size of the development, and lets the developers squeeze in more homes, in the area in which they are actually building, while claiming the density of the entire development (including the green space) is within the law.
No, both real property and condominium law are very exact as to what constitutes "private property" in a common-element community, including any development greenspace and improvements (pool, clubhouse, etc.) in an HOA/UOA environment. These communities may be posted, and trespassing is trespassing. Regarding the acreage, developers oftentimes need to "buy more than they need" due to greenspace requirements, and density calculations are per zoning requirements. Blame your local legislator, not the developer, that has shrunk setback and spacing requirements, has increased density per acre, has granted variance after variance, etc.
said by RicoCorinth :
This reclassification of public roads, street lights, parks, drainage ponds, etc. -- as "private" -- lets local governments claim they're not responsible for these "private" things.
Hence my comment in my original post. (I am agreeing with you here.) Counties and towns laugh all the way to the bank with developments like this. Maintaining roads, plowing roads, patrolling roads, etc. - if they are a community's common element - remain the SOLE responsibility of the homeowners...who are paying "full freight" in local taxes. And developers can ignore state and county construction standards for roads because they are "private" (and never mind that 10 years down the road half of them will fall apart and need to be repaired by homeowners rather than the county/township).
said by RicoCorinth : Note that developers can't create CIDs without those permits, meaning that 'our' governments are letting developers create them the way they are. Then 'our' elected government officials claim it's not their place to interfere, as if they're innocent bystanders.
That's what I said. I live in a county that was #1 in the US for years running(and still ranks in the top 3) for new-housing development. You want a REALLY bad example? Read-up on today's #1 county in the US - Loudoun, VA (west-suburban DC) - - - - In 2003 the county legislature designed a "smart-growth" plan that drew the ire of all the national builders. So in 2004 the builders (and others) contributed hundreds of thousands of dollars to local(!) elections...and a clean-sweep of the old board of supervisors. And guess what - the new board has consistently voted to allow more developments. (The county population has tripled in 15 years, with up to 50,000 new homes planned...average cost $600k+.)
said by RicoCorinth : "Since implied warranties (assumed quality of goods) and consumer protections have come upon the legal landscape, the seller is held to a higher standard of disclosure than 'buyer beware' and has responsibility for defects which could not be noted by casual inspection ..."
My use of "buyer beware" was colloquial - meaning you should know what you're getting into if you are buying in an HOA or UOA community. And real property law is quite clear in terms of longer "free look" periods for the reasons we've both stated. The higher standard of disclosure you reference is incorporated into the covenants (declaration, bylaws, etc.) that by law must - must - be presented to a purchaser.
said by RicoCorinth : "Research (e.g., Professor Alexander's) has shown that these "obvious deficiencies" aren't recognized by the vast majority of homebuyers. This is because they can generally "not be noted by casual inspection."
Anyone who buys any kind of property, commercial, investment or residential, without a professional inspection is (to be kind) "uninformed" about the nuances of construction and liability for everything from lead/asbestos to building code violations.
said by RicoCorinth : What is this "'free look' period"? Most homebuyers aren't shown the governing documents -- which are long and full of legalese -- until closing, at which point they're shown a lot of other documents.."
Full disclosure must be made - by law - at the time of sale. This is for everything from a single-family home with a leaky basement to an association-style home. (Smart buyers looking at "community living" ask for documentation beforehand so they can make a better buying decision.) If any and all covenants and governing documents are not provided at the time the contract is signed - well before the closing date - the seller, the selling agent, the title/closing company have ALL violated state law(s) - - enough so that a purchaser could back out of the deal with 100% refund of any deposit or earnest money. (In fact, a resale in an HOA or UOA is also under the same state laws for full disclosure.)
said by RicoCorinth :
It all depends on how you define, "well". None of the following "depends on the owners".
I've lived in four states and in both "private settings" plus three HOA-style communities, serving on two boards and currently as board president of my current HOA. Believe, me it's a lot more work than it is fun, and I spend about 15 hours a week working to keep my development safe, clean and to provide a positive, enjoyable living experience for all owners.
And I define "well" and "depending on the owners" with terms like mutual respect, for no one is "forced" to purchase a home in an HOA/UOA, yet everyone who does is on the same playing field with the same set of rules...
said by RicoCorinth : James Madison wrote in Federalist #47, The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, selfappointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny. Professor McKenzie wrote, In CIDs, power is unitary. The board cites violators and holds the hearings that constitute the trial. [Privatopia, 134];"
I'd say this is out of context - I don't think Virginia had HOA/UOA plantations with slaves having any rights of community ownership and property - in comparing the governance of the nation with HOAs. The state property laws I have looked at regarding HOA management use a term called a "standard of reasonableness" to protect individual owners from "mean boards," and there is ample case law in support of those against whom boards acted in arbitrary or unreasonable fashion.
said by RicoCorinth : This would disturb Madison, because he wrote, No man is allowed to be a judge in his own cause, because his interest would certainly bias his judgment, and, not improbably, corrupt his integrity, in Federalist No. 10.
That's like saying no town justice should be allowed to rule on a crime or even a traffic violation committed in that town because, if guilty, the offender would add money to the town coffers. Again, Madison was speaking of separation of powers on a federal level.
said by RicoCorinth : According to Barton & Silverman, Common interest homeowners associations have rule enforcement powers that are commonly exercised in ways that are offensive to normal conceptions of due process of law and the separation of powers. The association board passes rules, prosecutes violators, and then judges the guilt or innocence of the people involved. [Barton & Silverman, Common Interest Communities: Private Governments and the Public Interest, 36]>.
That is absolutely true - there's horror story after horror story about "full of themselves" and vindictive boards. And it's hard to remove an officer or director from office (depends on the covenants, but is never easy). That's why, again, "buy beware" - know what form and extent of restrictions you are accepting buy virtue of buying in an HOA/UOA.
said by RicoCorinth : Nevertheless, our representatives let forprofit developers create these governments, so that the developer can exercise tyrannous control. Stanley Scott noticed this. He wrote, These would be established by the developers and presided over by private, pseudolegislative bodies subject to deliberate manipulation. [Stanley Scott, The Homes Association: Will Private Government Serve the Public Interest?, February, 1967].
I agree. (See Loudoun County, VA and Adams County, CO as great examples.) When a developer has a cost of, say, $230k for a turnkey home - land, labor, materials, infrastructure - and sells it for $850k, well the potential for "influencing governmental bodies" goes way beyond mere potential. And multiply that $600k profit per home x 3,000 homesites and the dollars are staggering. Then multiply that times the number of national builders in a "hot area" like the two I mentioned...
So we have "barely meets code," yet top-dollar housing + elected officials taking campaign contributions (or worse) from big companies + uninformed buyers + "private communities" with, for example, substandard private roads, yet with owners who pay "full freight" in local taxes. A mess, in many instances, to be sure.
The bottom line, of course, is to make an informed buying decision. And regarding HOA/UOA lifestyles: If one cannot see oneself abiding by published community rules or standards, one should not purchase a home in that community.
"If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself." - - James Madison | |
|  |  |   Boomerang86 Got FUD? Premium join:2002-10-18 VampireState clubs:
·RoadRunner Cable
·VOIPo
·Time Warner VOIP
| said by shimonmor :said by joebear29 :...Half the owners are apathetic and never come to a meeting and won't vote on anything... WOW! You get half to come to yours? We're lucky to get ten percent on a meeting night in good weather! HOAs have their pitfalls, and some may see theirs as burdensome. We're happy with ours and it seems to be run by people who really care about the community. I beacme a trustee of ours a couple of months ago and I give these folks a lot of credit for keeping up on everything, without any salary or honararia. | |
|  |  |  slyphoxj
join:2002-06-23 Brook Park, OH
·AT&T Midwest
| On the other hand, HOA's for townhouse developments are probably a good thing. They encourage people to keep their homes in good repair and prevent situations where one unit in a building has an orange roof, the neighboring unit has a gray roof, the third unit down has a charcoal roof with some gray shingles mixed in, the fourth unit down has half its singles missing and a gutter about to fall off... you get the idea.
The 45 year old townhouse development I live in doesn't have a HOA and never had one that I can recall (I might be wrong... it *may* have had one back in the early 60's after they were first built). My neighborhood started to look like a ghetto dive dump after decades of neglect and homeowner/tenant apathy (most of these unit are rentals) until my city stepped in a few years back and put in new common driveways and made people get rid of their old rusty metal sheds and metal chain link fences and made everyone replace them with decent wood sheds all painted a uniform color and shadowbox fences. | |
|  |   RR Conductor RailRoadDude Premium join:2002-04-02 Redwood Valley, CA | American's, we're all Americans, even if we don't agree with Gwbuh and Trickie Dickie. | |
|   lordfly
join:2000-10-12 Homestead, FL
·AT&T Southeast
| That is just ridiculous I used to be on the board of an association. We battled over forcing Adelphia Cable on everyone, and then we realized that over half of the community was switching to DirecTV or DISH including everyone on the board.
This might not happen because some states require a majority community vote, not just a board vote, to make this type of change.
This is another reason I moved out of the assocation last year into my own home in the Redland (Deep South Florida) agricultural community. | |
|   TheMadSwede Premium join:2001-01-30 Holland, MI
·Charter Pipeline
| Novel idea Mow my grass, shovel my snow and make sure the neighbors don't have 50 people living in a 2 BR condo. Just let me worry about any telecommunications services I might want or need.
You can say "it's not that easy...", but it really is. -- home | |
|  |  russotto
join:2000-10-05 Collegeville, PA
| Re: Novel idea It's NOT that simple, because of one thing: corruption. Graft. Kickbacks and the like. The telco company makes a sweetheart deal with the developer, the developer pockets the money, passes the contract onto the homeowners association, and leaves the owners holding the bag. | |
|  |  |   bistro777 Donuts-Is There Anything They Can't Do? Premium join:2002-02-07 Englewood, CO
| Re: Novel idea That's true. And that's also why at "developer turnowner," a new community association has the right to terminate contracts. Unfortunately, many developers grant an easement - rather than a license - to the telco/cable company, and that complicates things immensely.
I always wanted to be somebody, but I guess I should have been more specific. | |
|  |  |   TheMadSwede Premium join:2001-01-30 Holland, MI
·Charter Pipeline
| said by russotto :It's NOT that simple... It IS that simple.
Associations aren't responsible or held to developer contracts. And even if easements are granted, that only deals with the use of property. An easement doesn't mean anyone is forced to use any service they do not want.
The only thing forcing people to pay for a service they do not want is the association establishing a contract with a provider, in which case the board members should be voted out. -- home | |
|   OceanaJones
join:2004-10-18 Suffolk, VA
| No to HOA If I was in the market to buy a home, I would pass on any that had a HOA clause or covenant in it. It's bad enough to cow toe to government rules and regulations, let alone some stuffy old HOA. Somewhere along the line Freedom seems to have lost its Ring here in America. | |
|   Derch Premium join:2004-10-16 Tulsa, OK | Vote them out. I don't feal sorry for the HOA if they didn't realize this in the beginning or allow this to happen for a certain period of time. Choice in ISP's is always good. | |
|   neosolace Stay In It
join:2003-08-25 Verbena, AL | No Way! Wow! All of a sudden sitting on 70 acres of self owned,non-HOA bastardized land (albeit on dial-up) doesn't sound so bad after all!  | |
|   bozeman42
@bridgeband.net
| Montana We have a development around here that won't even let you get a second service even if you want to pay for it. The developer won't let Qwest or Bresnen in the easements. so you are forced to use the developer owned service or a dish if you hide it well. hows that for messed up. »www.baxtermeadows.com/ | |
|  |   Derch Premium join:2004-10-16 Tulsa, OK | Re: Montana Sounds like good old American Greed to me... | |
|  |  russotto
join:2000-10-05 Collegeville, PA | The FCC is very jealous of its authority, and does not allow HOAs, etc to prevent you from installing dishes.
I'm fairly sure it's also illegal for the associations to deny the CLECs access to the NIDs. | |
|  |  |  viperlmw Premium join:2005-01-25
·Qwest.net
| Re: Montana While you are correct about dishes, if a cable company is providing the broadband and/or dial tone, I don't believe it is required to provide access to the NID. I am sure they don't have to share broadband. The cable companies have almost no regulations regarding service, while the telcos remain among the most heavily regulated industries in the country. | |
|   N3OGH Bear patrol must be working like a charm Premium join:2003-11-11 Philly burbs
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL
| HOA? No Way! I will never purchase a home with a home owner's association or deed restriction. I just can't see paying $500K for something, and having some 3rd rate Hitler wannabe and his minions on the board tell me what to do with MY house.
So what if it keeps the guy next door from painting his house purple, or something similar. It's HIS house. He paid for it, and should be able to do with it as he chooses.
In the town I live in, we have several newer developments that have HOA's. All the residents do is bitch about their associations to the township supervisors. There's nothing the supervisors can do, since the lot was purchased with a HOA deed restriction.
Being forced into an ISP due to a deed restriction or HOA is just over the top. It's nothing but the builder getting an extra chunk of change from the ISP. Greedy bastards.
Besides, most of the new construction houses in this part of the country (the northeast) are nothing but pressboard and 2X4 frame outs. I've walked through a few of them, and man, talk about crappy. I chose to fix up an older brick construction home, built on a stand a lone lot.
Hmm, maybe that 3 bedroom ranch would look good with a purple stripe, with "international" yellow trim....  | |
|  |  haplo2112
join:2003-05-12 Charlton, MA
| Another reason why HOA,and covenents, etc are evil Every time I hear about one of these things I reiterate that I would never live in that sort of community...that has rules about what I can do in and around my own house...
This sort of thing should be illegal....
The worst part is I know in some areas this is literally the only way to buy a house. | |
|  |  mglunt
join:2001-09-10 Fredericksburg, VA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Another reason why HOA,and covenents, etc are During our house hunting (for our first home), probably 75% had HOA's... Fees ranged from $15 to $120 depending on what you got for your money. We bought a house without one, but not on purpose. Although most of the newer homes (say less than 10 years old) with the HOA's had little to no yards, which was something we were looking for.
I can see the good and the bad. Someone mentioned that they didn't care if their neighbor painted their house purple and pink, but what happens if you try to sell it, and the buyers care? you get less for your home. The same thing goes for people leaving broken down cars in their yards. We don't have any of those near us, but a couple blocks away, someone does.
As long as the HOA doesn't over-step its bounds, I think they are generall a good thing, but often times, power goes to their heads. HOA's should not worry about flowers, DTV dishes, etc... just about the major things. | |
|  |  |  haplo2112
join:2003-05-12 Charlton, MA
| Re: Another reason why HOA,and covenents, etc are My wife has a friend who lives in CO, and when I hear about what they go through I shudder...
They have a boat, the HOA demanded that they build a garage to put the boat in...UM...do you realize HOW BIG a structure that will need to be? Of course after building the structure they found it unsuitable and wanted changes.
The whole you must plant this many of this kind of tree/plant that was a great one too...and of course no you can't have that kind of tree....Your lawn is dead fix it, but oh you can't water on these days of the week, but oh it better be green in two weeks or we will fine you... | |
|   viperpa33s Why Me? Premium join:2002-12-20 Bradenton, FL
·Bright House
| Many questions, no answers What happens if you have a problem with your service? Do you go to the service provider or do you go to the HOA since the money to pay for the service is coming out of the due money?
Let's take this one step further and add cell phones. Say if an HOA made a deal with Verizon, does that mean you have to get a cell phone through Verizon?
Since the HOA is in charge of the service for the community are they going to tell you what you can watch and can't watch? Is the HOA going to tell Cox what stations can be piped into your home?
What stops an HOA from making deals with other companies or organizations? | |
|  |   Matt Gone playing Dragon Age Origins Premium join:2003-07-20 Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
| If it's in the contract..... Don't buy a house in that development. That should send a pretty clear message to the developers when their investment sits there for months, empty.
It's just like those apartments that provide their own "Cable" TV via satellite and charge every tenent a monthly fee, whether they use it or not. | |
|   tim_k Buttons, Bows, Beamer, Shadow, Kasey Premium join:2002-02-02 Stewartstown, PA
·Millenicom
·WildBlue
| HOA I've seen good and bad with HOS's. I had one with my first house. Living in a townhouse, many of us didn't see any advantage to it. We had small lawns and sidewalks. For the money they were charging us, we would rather cut our own lawn or shovel the snow ourselves. So we voted to disband it. Later, some people started to do some weird things with their houses. One guy painted his house green and black, and had all kinds of weird things in his front lawn. Including a live duck in a cage. Everyone put up different kinds of fencing. It looked like a mess. Home values started to drop.
My father on the other hand was in a HOA that controlled every little thing. He had a lot of problems with them. I'm glad I live out in the country now. Away from HOA's and where people have more sense with how they fix up their homes. | |
|   ColdFiltered
join:2005-01-25 Atlanta, GA
| HOAs are Evil. My builder, who is on the 10-15 year buildout model for 100 homes just raised everyone's HOA fee from $350 to 450 and has done less, not more, during the past four years. And since less than 80% of the planned homes are not sold, the HOA is controlled by this a-hole builder.
I consider that a double-evil. | |
|   tower29 Premium join:2002-02-12 Loveland, CO
| I think this will clear the air. My HOA sucks too! The New Satellite Dish Law
Until January 1, 1997, Homeowner Associations could prohibit a homeowner from putting a satellite dish on his roof. With passage of the Telecommunications Act of 1996, your local HOA is prohibited from enforcing local laws banning, or even delaying mounting of, a satellite dish that is less than 39 inches (1 meter) in diameter. What's more, they can't even require you to request permission to put the dish on your roof! And once it's up, they can't make you take it down or even move it unless you have either created a safety hazard (which they have to prove to the FCC) or you live in a historic district (listed in the National Register of Historic Places).
If your HOA is hassling you about a satellite dish you have put on your roof or are planning to put up, here is a chance to fight back with the Federal Government behind you! This is a fight the HOA cannot win.
The following is the verbatim text of a Fact Sheet published by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) relating to this issue. Click here to see the FCC Fact Sheet (assuming the FCC hasn't moved it). If they have moved it, visit the FCC Web Page and search for satellite dish laws and regulations.
FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
FACT SHEET
August 1996
Placement of Direct Broadcast Satellite, Multichannel Multipoint Distribution Service, and Television Broadcast Antennas
As directed by Congress in the Telecommunications Act of 1996, the Federal Communications Commission has adopted rules concerning restrictions on viewers' ability to receive video programming signals from direct broadcast satellites (DBS), multichannel multipoint distribution (wireless cable) providers (MMDS), and television broadcast stations (TVBS).
Receiving video programming from any of these services requires use of an antenna, and the installation, maintenance or use of these antennas may be restricted by local governments or community associations. These restrictions have included such provisions as requirements for permits or prior approval, and requirements that a viewer plant trees around the antenna to screen it from view, as well as absolute bans on all antennas. In passing this new law, Congress believed that local restrictions were preventing viewers from choosing DBS, MMDS, or TVBS because of the additional burdens that the restrictions imposed. To implement this legislation, on August 5, 1996, the Commission adopted a new rule that is intended to eliminate unnecessary restrictions on antenna placement and use while minimizing any interference caused to local governments and associations. This rule will become effective after it is approved by the Office of Management and Budget in accordance with the requirements of the Paperwork Reduction Act.
The new rule prohibits restrictions that impair the installation, maintenance or use of antennas used to receive video programming. These antennas include DBS satellite dishes that are less than one meter (39") in diameter (larger in Alaska), TV antennas, and antennas used to receive MMDS. The rule prohibits most restrictions that: (1) unreasonably delay or prevent installation, maintenance or use, (2) unreasonably increase the cost of installation, maintenance or use, or (3) preclude reception of an acceptable quality signal. This rule means that, in most circumstances, viewers will be able to install, use and maintain an antenna on their property if they directly own the property on which the antenna will be located.
The Telecommunications Act and this new rule are designed to promote competition among video programming service providers, enhance consumer choice, and assure wide access to communications. The rule allows local governments and homeowners' associations to enforce restrictions that do not impair reception of these signals as well as restrictions needed for safety or historic preservation. The rule balances these public concerns with an individual's desire to receive video programming. The Commission has asked for further comment on whether additional rules should apply to situations where a viewer wants to install an antenna on property owned by a landlord or on common property controlled by a condominium or homeowners' association.
This fact sheet provides general answers to questions that may arise about the implementation of the rule. For further information, call the Federal Communications Commission at (202) 418-0163.
Q: What types of restrictions are prohibited?
A: The rule prohibits restrictions that impair a viewer's ability to receive signals from a provider of DBS, MMDS or TVBS. The rule applies to state or local laws or regulations, including zoning, land-use or building regulations, private covenants, homeowners' association rules or similar restrictions on property within the exclusive use or control of the antenna user where the user has a direct or indirect ownership interest in the property. A restriction impairs if it: 1) unreasonably delays or prevents use of, 2) unreasonably increases the cost of, or 3) precludes a subscriber from receiving an acceptable quality signal from, one of these antennas. The rule does not prohibit safety restrictions or restrictions designed to preserve historic districts.
Q: What types of restrictions unreasonably delay or prevent subscribers from receiving a signal?
A: A local restriction that prohibits all antennas would prevent subscribers from receiving signals, and is prohibited by the Commission's rule. Procedural requirements can also impair the ability to receive service. Thus, local regulations that require a person to obtain a permit or approval prior to receiving service will delay reception; this is generally allowed only if it is necessary to serve a safety or historic preservation purpose.
Q: What is an unreasonable additional cost to install, maintain or use an antenna?
A: Any requirement to pay a fee to the local authority in order to be allowed to install an antenna would be unreasonable, unless it is a permit fee that is needed to serve safety or historic preservation or a permit is required in the case of installation on a mast greater than 12 feet. Things to consider in determining the reasonableness of any costs imposed include: the cost of the equipment and services, whether there are similar requirements for other similar installations like air conditioning units or trash receptacles, and what visual impact the antenna has on the surroundings. Restrictions cannot require that relatively unobtrusive DBS antennas be screened by expensive landscaping. A requirement to paint an antenna in a fashion that will not interfere with reception so that it blends into the background against which it is mounted would likely be acceptable. In general, the costs imposed by local regulations cannot be unreasonable in light of the cost of the equipment or services and the visual impact of the antenna.
Q: What restrictions prevent a subscriber from receiving an acceptable quality signal?
A: A requirement that an antenna be placed in a position where reception would be impossible or would be substantially degraded would conflict with the rule. However, a regulation requiring that antennas be placed to the extent feasible in locations that are not visible from the street would be permitted, if this placement would still permit reception of an acceptable quality signal.
Q: Are all restrictions prohibited?
A: No, many restrictions are still valid. Safety restrictions are permitted even if they impair reception, because local governments bear primary responsibility for protecting public safety. Examples of valid safety restrictions include fire codes preventing people from installing antennas on fire escapes, restrictions requiring that a person not place an antenna within a certain distance from a power line, electrical code requirements to properly ground the antenna, and installation requirements that describe the proper method to secure an antenna. The safety reason for the restriction must be written in the text, preamble or legislative history of the restriction, or in a document that is readily available to antenna users, so that a person wanting to install an antenna knows what restrictions apply. The restriction cannot impose a more burdensome requirement than is needed to ensure safety.
Restrictions in historic areas may also be valid. Because certain areas are considered uniquely historical and strive to maintain the historical nature of their community, these areas are excepted from the rule. To qualify as an exempt area the area must be listed or eligible for listing in the National Register of Historic Places. In addition, the area cannot restrict antennas if such a restriction would not be applied to the extent practicable in a non-discriminatory manner to other modern structures that are comparable in size, weight and appearance and to which local regulation would normally apply. Valid historical areas cannot impose a more burdensome requirement than is needed to ensure the historic preservation goal.
Q: Whose restrictions are prohibited?
A: Restrictions are prohibited in state or local laws or regulations, including zoning, land-use or building regulations, private covenants, homeowners' association rules or similar restrictions relating to what people can do on land within their exclusive use or control where they have a direct or indirect ownership interest in the property.
Q: If I live in a condominium where the land and the roof are commonly owned, or in an apartment building where the landlord owns the land and the roof, does this rule apply to me?
A: A Further Notice of Proposed Rulemaking has been adopted by the Commission, to obtain comments from interested persons about whether rules should apply in these situations. The Commission will use those comments to reach a decision on this question.
Q: What types of antennas are covered?
A: A "dish" antenna that is one meter (39") or less in diameter or is located in Alaska and is designed to receive direct broadcast satellite service, including direct-to-home satellite service.
An antenna that is one meter or less in diameter or diagonal measurement and is designed to receive video programming services via MMDS (wireless cable). Such antennas may be mounted on "masts" to reach the height needed to establish line-of-sight contact with the transmitter. Masts higher than 12 feet may be subject to local permitting requirements.
An antenna that is designed to receive television broadcast signals. Masts higher than 12 feet may be subject to local permitting requirements. Q: What can a local government, association, or consumer do if there is a dispute over whether a particular restriction is valid?
A: If the local authority defines the restriction as safety-related it is valid, unless a court or the Commission determines that it is not safety-related or is not the least burdensome way to ensure the safety goal. If a local government or association has "highly specialized or unusual" concerns about antenna installation, maintenance or use, it may apply to the Commission for a waiver of the rule, to have its restriction declared valid. Interested parties may petition the Commission or a court of competent jurisdiction for a ruling to determine whether a particular restriction is permitted or prohibited under this rule.
Q: Who is responsible for showing that a restriction is enforceable?
A: When a conflict arises about whether a restriction is valid, the government or association trying to enforce the restriction will be responsible for proving that the restriction is valid. This means that no matter who questions the validity of the restriction, the burden will always be on the local government or association to prove that the restriction is permitted under the rule or that it qualifies for a waiver.
Q: Who do I call if my town or neighborhood association is enforcing an invalid restriction?
A: Call the Federal Communications Commission at (202) 418-0163. Some assistance may also be available from the direct broadcast satellite company, multichannel multipoint distribution service or television broadcast station whose service is desired. | |
|  Spadesman
join:2004-02-02 Grand Prairie, TX
| I can't dissolve mine! I agree that HOA's are evil. I bought my house about 2 years ago and dread the ~$400/year spent on keeping up some grass and a stupid pool.
It depends on your bylaws, buy my HOA cannot be dissolved by a majority vote. It is active for 30 years, and I think in year 20 or so, maybe later, you can pass a vote to dissolve it, but if you don't it will automatically rerun for another 30 years! I suggest everyone read the bylaws, because some of the stuff in there is down right funny. They say I can't protest in my yard or driveway (like with signs and stuff) but "we are not violating your first admendment rights." LOL. You are also not to have signs in YOUR CARS, which I find interesting because it is a CAR and not a HOME! I have thought about putting a sign in my front window and making it well lit to see what they would do. The would have to trepass to remove the sign and I would have the police out in a heartbeat.
Other things like they can force services on your house like lawn maintenance, repair, painting and make you pay for it. I have read about people who try to fight them due to constitutionality reasons, but the HOA's have lots of money and good lawyers. It is all about money.
A good neighbor told me that in the beginning they had people who would go around and nit pick everything but they were voted out very quickly. As someone said earlier, most people don't even care. Our last meeting didn't even have enough people show up so we have to vote by mail. | |
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