Are Anti-Spyware Vendors Selling Out?Questions surround Lavasoft and WhenU ( old news - 11:28AM Tuesday Feb 15 2005) tags: spyware As mentioned yesterday, both Lavasoft and PestPatrol have stopped detecting WhenU Adware, without any public announcement concerning the changes. The decision immediately led many to believe both companies had followed the path of Aluria - an anti-spyware firm that weakened detection criteria after striking a marketing agreement with WhenU. After considerable pressure was applied to the company in their forums, they announced last night their detection criteria had been changed, but not because of any deal with WhenU. "First and foremost, Lavasoft does not have collaborations with any company that has or will have content detected by Ad-Aware. WhenU was indeed removed from our database by research in the last definition file. This was due to WhenU not scoring more than 2 TAC points at the time. In case it turns out that the removal was incorrect, WhenU will naturally be reintroduced to the database." Lavasoft's threat assessment chart (TAC) can be found here. The chart ranks irritation-ware on a number of criteria; whether it has a functional uninstaller, operates in stealth, auto-updates without user permission, etc. The problem arises when you note that while Lavasoft and PestPatrol have apparently decided to delist WhenU applications, other anti-spyware vendors have not. Even Aluria, who has apparently been willing to compromise security for cash, marks WhenU as a threat via their new Security Center 4.0. Lavasoft's response raises more questions than it answers. Is WhenU really improving the seedier aspects of their applications, or are they simply engaged in a massive public relations campaign? Both? And why the sudden removal of WhenU? Why doesn't, as one of our regulars asks, Lavasoft require vendors with seedy reputations like WhenU to "maintain a below threshold TAC score over a period of several consecutive months?"Many anti-spyware companies have been approached by the vendors to play nice, and some are refusing. Wayne Porter, the CEO of anti-spyware company Xblock, recently noted XBlock was approached by the two largest spyware companies (he doesn't specify which) to establish a "partnership". "In one pitch the offer was simply increased exposure via a co-branded solution," Porter explains on his website. "In the other request the software would be offered for free and there would be a revenue share on the advertising revenue generated."
Porter's team said no, because, as he puts it: "the line is already blurry enough without companies embracing the very problems they are supposed to be solving."And that's the rub. In a quest to be seen as legitimate and fend off future anti-ad/spyware laws, Adware vendors are now joining anti-spyware associations, luring anti-spyware vendors to weaken detection criteria, and eroding consumer trust that these products will keep their PC's free of irritation-ware. Related:- FTC 'Cracks Down' on Spyware Purveyors
- McAfee’s Security Threat Predictions
- Win2k Users Annoyed By Defender Snub
- Teacher Faces Jail For Spyware Riddled Porn Spewing PC
- BOClean Gets a New Home, Will Be Free
- FTC: Jail For Spyware Merchants
- Kaspersky Can Call Your Crap Spyware Anything They Like
- Spyware By Sears
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  woody7 Premium join:2000-10-13 Torrance, CA
·DSL EXTREME
| Hmmmm......... "First and foremost, Lavasoft does not have collaborations with any company that has or will have content detected by Ad-Aware. WhenU was indeed removed from our database by research in the last definition file. This was due to WhenU not scoring more than 2 TAC points at the time. In case it turns out that the removal was incorrect, WhenU will naturally be reintroduced to the database." _______________________________________________________________ so they say......I'm going to chuck it anyway -- BlooMe | |
|  |  Plldwnyrpnts
join:2003-04-19 Chicago, IL | Re: Hmmmm......... I won't be chucking it. I'll just consider it less reliable. And as always, it will not be the only scanner I use. | |
|  |  |   CampMaster Rather Be Camp'n Premium join:2001-05-16 Trabuco Canyon, CA
·ViaTalk
·DSL EXTREME
| Re: Hmmmm......... said by Plldwnyrpnts :I won't be chucking it. I'll just consider it less reliable. And as always, it will not be the only scanner I use. Same here. Pretty sad though and duly noted for future reference and recommendations to others. -- There's no place like 127.0.0.1 | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  B Premium,MVM join:2000-10-28
| Re: Hmmmm......... Well, they HAVE. They've at times removed malware remote control trojans that went "legitimate" with a commercial version, e.g. NetBus Pro.
I don't know if they still do this, but it has more to do with liability than with pay-offs.
-- B -- In a realm outside causality and function | |
|  |  |   Viper007Bond Premium join:2002-09-26 Portland, OR
| Same goes for me as well.
I've been relying on Microsoft's lately actually. It caught the Cydoor that came with eXeem while Ad-Aware did not. -- I have a signature. | I also have a website/blog. | |
|  |  |  |   BonezX Basement Dweller Premium join:2004-04-13 Canada
| Re: Hmmmm......... said by Viper007Bond :Same goes for me as well. I've been relying on Microsoft's lately actually. It caught the Cydoor that came with eXeem while Ad-Aware did not. same deal with cydoor, S&D caught it when i scanned, but ad-aware didn't and it usially picks up on data miners. | |
|  |  |  |   slimpickinz
join:2003-11-29 Conyers, GA
| It did not catch Cydoor...hmmmm, have you updated definitions lately.... Look here, as an experiment, I installed exeem and here are the results... -- Visit Us Here! | |
|  |  |   Buddel If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Premium join:2004-03-06 EU
| said by Plldwnyrpnts :I won't be chucking it. I'll just consider it less reliable. And as always, it will not be the only scanner I use. Yep!:) | |
|  |  |  |   chodemode
@comcast.net
| Am I the only one here who thinks this whole thing is being blown way out of proportion? It was made quite clear yesterday that WhenU is not "malicious" software.
WhenU is installed BY CHOICE by the user AFTER reading (or being given the opportunity to read) the EULA terms, which clearly explain what the software does. Furthermore, the software may be removed by the user at any time via Add/Remove Programs.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending WhenU or any type of adware. But I think you people are taking this way too far...talking about "trust" and all this garbage. Users need to take some responsibility and stop relying on various "security" software companies to hold your hand every minute that you use your PC. If you have WhenU (or any other adware for that matter) on your PC, it's most likely because YOU were given a choice to install it, and you chose to install it. Don't turn around and get all fired up at Lavasoft/PestPatrol for following the same procedures they have been following for years. Threats are added and removed from these companies' databases every day. Oddly nobody seemed to care until WhenU was removed...and what makes WhenU a special case still baffles me.
It's almost comical that people are chucking Adaware over this. Do you have any idea how less secure your PC is without Adaware or PestPatrol? Do you really thing Aluria is going to offer better protection (Aluria actually does have a marketing agreement with WhenU, Lavasoft does not...and Aluria is ADWARE SUPPORTED!)?
The ignorance is astounding. Educate yourselves. Protect your own PC, don't rely on someone else to do it for you. No one adware-scanner is going to detect every trace of adware. The best strategy is to use multiple scanners, and PAY ATTENTION to what you are installing. WhenU is installed by choice.
Alarmism will get you nowhere. Paranoia breeds mistrust. Wake up people. | |
|  |  |  B Premium,MVM join:2000-10-28
| Re: Hmmmm......... said by chodemode:
Paranoia breeds mistrust. Make up your mind, anonymous. Is trust "garbage" or vital to any relationship involving humans? You make no sense, and you are clearly excusing EVERY bit of spyware we've seen, with all the same old excuses. Whom do you work for?
-- B -- In a realm outside causality and function | |
|  |  |  |  Freegoo
join:2002-12-11 Larrabee, IA
| Re: Hmmmm......... His main point is that people are overreacting to this.
He's right.
It doesn't stealth install - you click "Yes, please install whenU spyware" - and removal is as simple as running add/remove. Where's the beef?
Some of the chicken little responses and acusations are mildly amusing, and makes me wonder how these people get through life without stroking out. | |
|  |  |  |  |  B Premium,MVM join:2000-10-28
| Re: Hmmmm......... Wrong, not all installations of WhenU are that clear, and it's remarkably premature to remove them from Ad-Aware's database.
If you see no value in antispyware software (which is exactly what I gather from your statement), then so be it. Because EVERY current piece of spyware makes a claim that its users consented. Your position seems to support theirs.
-- B -- In a realm outside causality and function | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   Combat Chuck Too Many Cannibals Premium join:2001-11-29 Verona, PA
| Re: Hmmmm......... said by B :Wrong, not all installations of WhenU are that clear Examples? -- sprry; I kust gpt s new leubprd////////keyboard | |
|  |   ZOverLord Premium join:2003-10-20 Minneapolis, MN
| There is a near 2 percent decrease in the defs file size, which is NOT because of compression, so WhenU is just the TIP of the Iceberg.
For more detail go here:
»ASW Vendors in La-La Land
What is so complicated for Lavasoft to NOT be able to provide a LIST of RECENTLY De-Listed items?
Sounds real EASY too me, WhenU is One, WHAT are the others? | |
|  |  |  |  |  B Premium,MVM join:2000-10-28 | Re: Hmmmm......... Spybot still works that way. Of course, they are by no means comprehensive.
-- B -- In a realm outside causality and function | |
|  |   ZOverLord Premium join:2003-10-20 Minneapolis, MN
| I have recently added a NEW topic on the LavaSoft Board.
Title: List Of recently De-Listed Items
»www.lavasoftsupport.com/index.ph···ic=59051
Lets see what the response is, in case it is DELETED, here was the POST
"Would it NOT be an Ethically correct thing for the REASEARCH team at this point to be able to provide a LIST of De-Listed Items removed from the TAC and also stating what POINTS were decreased.
say from: 12/16/04 - 02/05/05
Could there also in the future be a NON-TAC list which would show what the current TAC points are compared to when the ITEM was listed in the TAC so that people could see WHY ITEMS were downgraded.
In each release forward, can the detail not only include ADDED items but removed ITEMS as well.
If NOT WHY?" | |
|   Dan Professor Lava Hot Premium join:2002-12-17 {runtime_%#} | Good Work Karl! Karl, I always enjoy reading your rants and posts. They are always very well thought out, and knowledgable.
I want to thank you, and keep up the good work mate! -- Looks like another ID 10 T error. | |
|  |  |   packetscan Premium join:2004-10-19 Bridgeport, CT clubs: | FRAUD It's self explanatory. | |
|  |   Wills
join:2001-01-03 Port Charlotte, FL
| Re: FRAUD Judge, Jury, and Executioner (dslreports) says "THE SKY IS FALLING!" "THE SKY IS FALLING!"
God forbid you take a company's statement at face value. Why don't you guys drop the paranoia, take off your little aluminum foil hats, and unclench?
Then wait a little bit and see what happens before you all jump off the spyware cliff like a bunch of lemmings. -- I have a shaved head, a goatee, and tatoos. Don't you realize the rules don't apply to me. | |
|  |  |  Goldman
join:2002-06-21 Maumelle, AR
| Re: FRAUD said by Wills :God forbid you take a company's statement at face value. The statement doesn't match the facts. I think most here are still trying to give Lavasoft a chance. But that window of opportunity is closing quickly for them. | |
|  |  |   vonsen Just Because Premium join:2005-01-06
| said by Wills :Judge, Jury, and Executioner (dslreports) says "THE SKY IS FALLING!" "THE SKY IS FALLING!" God forbid you take a company's statement at face value. Why don't you guys drop the paranoia And cigarettes don't cause cancer either. There's more spin in your reply than lavasoft's. Some skepticism is warranted in view of lavasoft's lame response. Their future actions will speak volumes, but for now, adaware goes down several notches, duly noted in use and recommendations.
-- six stars shy | |
|  |  |  |   newview Ex .. Ex .. Exactly Premium join:2001-10-01 Parsonsburg, MD
·Vonage
| Re: FRAUD said by vonsen :Their future actions will speak volumes, but for now, adaware goes down several notches, duly noted in use and recommendations. And . . . if Lavasoft decides to admit to wrongdoing, for whatever reason, but do the "right thing" and add WhenU back into their reference file, I'll still feel compelled to qualify all future recommendations to others with the facts of this current situation. The knowledge of past actions always influences future decisions. -- Ö¿Ö The Rules of Spam | Maryland's Newest Anti-Spam Law Where are we going? And what's with the hand basket? | |
|  |  |  |  |   Yeahwhatever1
@bellsouth.ne | Re: FRAUD What I don't get, is that a program such as WhenU should NEVER be removed from the ref list. You still have a choice if you want to keep it, by simply checking off the box. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   King P Don't blame me. I voted for Ron Paul Premium join:2004-11-17 Inman, SC | Re: FRAUD I think this dude is the same as the Anon comcast user above...maybe he zombied someones PC...and loaded it with WhenU. -- Forget 'em, Support the Indies.»www.ind-music.com | |
|  |  |  Edward2
join:2002-04-28 Canton, GA
| With all the problems people have keeping their computers clean of viruses and spy-ware, it is no wonder that people react this way to this type information. People spend a lot of time and money on software programs to help keep their computers "clean". Often times these purchases are based on a level of "trust" that these programs will in fact help protect them.
I have 6 computers on my own home network that I must protect from viruses and spy-ware. If I have to replace one of my protection programs because I no longer trust it, that is going to cost me time and money. | |
|  |  |  |  Admj
join:2001-01-17 Placentia, CA
| Re: FRAUD
With all the problems people have keeping their computers clean of viruses and spy-ware, it is no wonder that people react this way to this type information. People spend a lot of time and money on software programs to help keep their computers "clean". Often times these purchases are based on a level of "trust" that these programs will in fact help protect them.
Well put, I too have many computers to protect, who can you trust? Will anti-virus companies take on the challenge of providing anti-spyware? And will they take bribes? | |
|  |  |  |  |   dadkins Living on a Blu Planet Premium,MVM join:2003-09-26 Hercules, CA | Re: FRAUD KAV with Extended bases removes WhenU...  | |
|  |  |  theeinstein Premium join:2003-07-31 Fernandina Beach, FL
| WHAT!!
The fact is you need something to depend on and if the company waivers on 1 thing it will on others... you say WAIT... That's basically saying if your being beat in the head just stay there it may begin to feel better!!
We the customers have the right to be your so called Judge, Jury, and Executioner and if a company cant be trusted they should be thrown out | |
|  |  |  |   schnuggles Stays Crunchy In Milk
join:2003-06-07 Deming, NM
edit: February 15th, @09:01PM
| said by packetscan :FRAUD So is libel, and you might want to look that up before posting an acusation without proof. Companies are getting more and more aggressive about such things. -- Salus Populi Suprema Est Lex
-Cicero (106 BC - 43 BC) | |
|   HotRodFoto Premium join:2003-04-19 Denver, CO | Ditched I wil be ditching it now for SSD, when they fail to keep something as notorious as WhenU, I am gone -- All Things Arthttp://kkart.deviantart.com | |
|  |   Ant718
join:2002-01-30 Bronx, NY
| Re: Ditched said by HotRodFoto :I wil be ditching it now for SSD, when they fail to keep something as notorious as WhenU, I am gone You should have always & STILL always use AdAware & SSD! Whats wrong with all you people. Ditching software just for one minor issue.
Does Ewido catch WhenU?? | |
|  |  |   HotRodFoto Premium join:2003-04-19 Denver, CO | Re: Ditched That's cuz I used Adaware along with Spyware Eliminator -- All Things Arthttp://kkart.deviantart.com | |
|   Transmaster Onward Through The Fog
join:2001-06-20 Cheyenne, WY | Well load up Spyware Blaster, and Spybot S&D they work togather and do so very, very well. | |
|   MeNaCe942
join:2003-07-25 Sacramento, CA clubs: 
| ehhh lavasofts ad-aware has seemed not to find as much stuff as it used to anyway.... it seems more and more often i have to use 2 or 3 different programs to get system cleaned anyway... -- Come get free stuff at freestuffnation.com | |
|  |  |   an old seal
thumbs down from: Nightfall 
| This about says it Perhaps something like the following needs to be done for the makers of software that detects "Spyware / Ad ware / Malware" so they WAKE UP!
==================================================
Two things Navy SEALS are always taught:
1. Keep your priorities in order 2. Know when to act without hesitation
A college professor, an avowed atheist and active in the ACLU, was teaching his class. He shocked several of his students when he flatly stated that for once and for all he was going to prove there was no God.
Addressing the ceiling he shouted:
"GOD, if you are real, then I want you to knock me off this platform.
I'll give you exactly 15 minutes!!!!!"
The lecture room fell silent.
You could hear a pin drop. Ten minutes went by.
"I'm waiting God, if you're real, knock me off this platform!!!!"
Again after a few more minutes, the professor taunted God saying, "Here I am, God!!! I'm still waiting!!!"
His count down got down to the last couple of minutes when a NAVY SEAL, just released from the Navy after serving in Afghanistan and Iraq and newly registered in the class, walked up to the Professor.
The SEAL hit him full force in the face, and sent the Professor tumbling from his lofty platform. The Professor was out cold!!
The students were stunned and shocked.
They began to babble in confusion.
The SEAL nonchalantly took his seat in the front row and sat silent.
The class looked at him and fell silent.....waiting.
Eventually, the professor came to and was noticeably shaken. He looked at the SEAL in the front row. When the professor regained his senses and could speak he asked: "What the hell is the matter with you?!"
"Why did you do that!?"
Well, "God was really busy protecting America's soldiers, who are protecting your right to say stupid shit and act like an asshole!!!
So he sent me!!"
========================================
Any more comments?  | |
|  |  See 6 replies to this post | |
  pog Premium join:2004-06-03 Kihei, HI
·Hawaiian Telcom
| One unanswered question... Aside from all else, the removal of WhenU from the database was surreptitious... quote: »ASW Vendors in La-La Land ... This failure to disclose the removal of WhenU from the Ad-aware detections database to Lavasoft's customers is a serious matter. Whatever one thinks of the de-listing, it should have been disclosed and Lavasoft should have offered an explanation for this change in policy in a clear, public manner. It did not. Instead, it slipped the change into its detections database and failed to inform users, even after users began to complain that WhenU was not being removed...
They have been meticulous about recording other changes so, IMO, things still stink. »www.lavasoftsupport.com/index.ph···wforum=1
Does this mean I won't use them? Yes and no. While I see no reason to stop using the free version, I don't think I can recommend the paid version to anyone (for now, at least). I don't see paying for more than one such application... so the paid one has to be a cut above the rest in terms of effectiveness and trustworthiness! | |
|  compton
join:2002-02-08 Brooklyn, NY
| That's a problem This can't sit well with the people who actually bought Adware SE Professional. People who bought Lavasoft Adware did so expecting Lavasoft will do their best to catch all spyware. Having a back room deal with a spyware vendor is a breech of an unwritten agreement between Lavasoft, and the users who paid for the service.
Spybot S&D is no better. If you open Spybot and click on advance mode -> settings -> Products; you will see four spyware products that set to be ignored by default. It looks like Spybot is just as shady as Lavasoft to me. | |
|  |  See 9 replies to this post | |
  viperpa33s Why Me? Premium join:2002-12-20 Bradenton, FL
·Bright House
| Is it so hard? I don't see why it's so hard giving someone a choice. Why Lavasoft had to remove When U from there definitions. Give the computer user the choice if they want the garbage removed from there computer or not. Then there won't be no need to for criteria. We all know any adware or spyware company is questionable no matter how many times they say they have changed. | |
|   npln Us Army
join:2000-07-17 San Francisco, CA | BYE Lavasoft And I was about to buy the license!!! BUT with this turn of events, I'm not. As a matter of fact I've uninstalled it from my systems......Too Bad, Now I will not recommend it anymore!!! | |
|  |  anonymous26
join:2005-02-21 Roseburg, OR
| lavasoft is a joke!!
all i have to say that i've never trusted lavasoft since day one. think about it, it started out to be totaly free. common knowledge says, nothings for free. everything has a catch. the catch was it would never remove certain spyware that caused popunders and recorded keys and sites. i found its better to go with a spyware remover that isn't that cheap garbage used on personal computers. The best stuff is used in business systems and doesn't come cheap. | |
|   B1indspot
@206.218.x.x | Exclusions Odd thing is, I was checking my setting under Spybot and found several items checked on the exclusion list, including: New.net and Mysearch. I found this to have occurred on a few other comps I've been monitoring. | |
|  SixPences
join:2005-02-23 Frederick, MD
| Do not forget other options
Besides anti-spy ware, you can use internet properties to block cookies or block website access. Simple but time consuming. Worse comes to worse you can have a list of the Only websites that can be or have access. This works to protect your children too. A horrible thought, what if the child protection software companies were to sell out. Now time for legislation or the courts to decide! | |
|   djclay
@door.net
| Ding Ding!
Hey, give Ad-Aware a chance, and come on, if you are so scared, simply don't use it, and use Microsoft's new AntiSpyware (acquired from GIANT), which actually monitors your computer in real time to keep WhenU (or any horrid malware)from ever even being installed in the first place. And if your really paranoid, SpywareBlaster 3.2 from JavaCool Software places small killbits on your computer to keep over 3,400 pieces of bad software/cookies from ever launching their installers! So, just lighten up on Lavasoft, and if your not a fan of Microsoft, then use SpySweeper by Webroot.
*Note: I am currently using/have used these products extensively and I will vouche that they are truly, products better than you. (J/K!)* | |
|  |   Byron2
@dynamic-dialup.coret
| Re: Ding Ding! My experience with Webroot. Still no response to the following. ----- Original Message ----- From: Byron Wine To: webroot_cs@yahoo.com Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 3:16 PM Subject: unhappy customer
Dear Phil (ext. 116),
My confidence in your company and products has been reduced. This is why: Approximately three weeks ago it was necessary to reinstall my operating system, Win2000, and other software. All upgrades to Win2000 were downloaded. I then, with Spy Sweeper Version 3.5, swept the computer for spyware, none was found. I thought this was unusual because previously every time the operating system was reinstalled Alexa Toolbar was located with Spy Sweeper. Then, with an older version of your Spyaudit program, swept the computer again and Alexa Toolbar was found. Your staff was contacted and a trouble ticket was generated (For references see 693-532833). By e-mail and telephone conversations your staff informed me the older Spyaudit program was giving a false positive and assured me that Alexa Toolbar was not on my computer. I then removed Spy Sweeper version 3.5 and installed version 2.6. Version 2.6 found several traces of Alexa Toolbar. Then, using the Microsoft "search for files and folders" program looked for the traces of Alexa Toolbar identified by version 2.6, the traces were found.. Again your staff was contacted and it was suggested that I download the latest version of Spy Sweeper and also a new Spyaudit program. I did, and either program found no spyware. Again version 2.6 was installed and found Alexa Toolbar. To make a very long story short, yesterday I had three conversations with your staff concerning Alexa Toolbar. Two of the conversations assured me that if the latest Spy Sweeper version 3.5 and the latest Spyaudit program did not find Alexa Toolbar, that program was not on my computer. The third conversation informed me your company had decided that Alexa Toolbar was not spyware and was no longer identified by Spy Sweeper or the Spyaudit program..
It is not reasonable for a customer to purchase an anti-spyware program that finds, and later ignores, a known web site tracker. I want to have an anti-spyware program that can be trusted, I now wonder what other known spyware your programs ignore. I want to know why your staff wasted your company time, and mine, trying to convince me that the Alexa Toolbar was not on my computer when it was.
Byron Wine | |
|  |  |   djclay
@door.net
| Alexa Toolbar
Ah, yes, that pesky toolbar (piece of ... turd). Put it to you this way, the Alexa toolbar is on every WinXP computer in the world, and any computer that has Internet Explorer 6+. This is because, for some reason, Alexa is actually bundled with Internet Explorer. Not many people seem to know this, and I'd be writing a letter to Microsoft if you were truly that concerned about it. And I'm sorry you've had a bad experience with Webroot, I was just recommending it becuase it was still better (easier UI, faster scans, ect.) than Ad-Aware, and ironically, that does relate to what this forum topic was about ! Anyway, sorry for the bad experience, I have run into no such trouble, but then again, I haven't contacted their customer support either, and usually that's where most companies fall short (cough MS).
----------------------- »www.djclay.net/ For up-to-date, security information, visit djclay.net. | |
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