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Carnivore 'Death' Irrelevant
The privacy debate should focus elsewhere

News reports exploded this week on the retirement of Carnivore, an FBI monitoring tool designed to be installed at an ISP to monitor criminal activity. The reality is that Carnivore was "retired" two years ago, replaced by backdoors, sweeping legal changes, and less accountability.

Estimated to have cost between six and fifteen million dollars to develop, the unit was designed to sit at the head-end of an ISP's network, collecting data packets only from surveillance targets. While the name certainly helped lend to the device's negative mythos, so did documentation on the project obtained via Freedom of Information Requests.

EPIC (Electronic Privacy Information Center) went to court to obtain FBI documents showing the unit could be easily abused, and was far less precise than promised. An independent analysis found that the unit's ability to broadly collect data with little to no accountability measures made it "constitutionally suspect".

Hoping to quell the all but ruined public image of the unit, the FBI renamed the project the less aggressive DCS1000 and lessened its profile. But recent EPIC documents show the unit hasn't been used in several years, making this week's "news" of the project's demise largely pointless.

With the invention of the Patriot Act, the application of wiretap laws to the digital realm, and the use of back-doors in consumer and enterprise gear, focusing the privacy debate on Carnivore makes little functional sense.

The Patriot Act now allows the FBI to force ISP's to hand over information without a court order, eliminating due process entirely. What's more, ISP's now are legally prohibited from alerting anyone about such requests under penalty of law. The EFF this week filed a freedom of information request to see just how much "warrant-less surveillance" is occurring.

The FBI has also convinced commercial vendors to put back doors in their hardware. MetaSwitch was one of several vendors to unveil switches with easy wiretap access embedded. Cisco has likewise been cooperative, developing their "Lawful Intercept Control" technology at the FBI's request.

The DOJ and FBI also convinced the FCC this year to rule that VoIP must adhere to traditional wiretap laws such as CALEA. Likewise they're hard at work making sure next generation fiber networks (like Verion's Fios) also comply.

And while it's not discussed much (Uncle Sam would like you to believe it falls in tin-foil beanie territory), Carnivore was a pin prick in comparison to the global surveillance axe known as Echelon - a massive monitoring network which features zero Congressional oversight.

So while the media has made quite a bit of noise this week about the death of Carnivore, Carnivore was a miniscule and outdated piece of a much larger puzzle. Carnivore did however function as a public relations lesson for Uncle Sam, whose new gathering mechanisms operate more quietly, with far less transparency and accountability.
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FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

4 edits

1 recommendation

FFH5

Premium Member

Irrelevant; Old news;Then why post it here?

If this news is irrelevant and old news, then why is it being headlined here?

Maybe just another attack on the lawful US surveillance of criminals and terrorists by those who would like to see us at their mercy.

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Minister
join:2002-01-02
Fleeting

Minister

Member

Re: Irrelevant; Old news;Then why post it here?

Because if you actually read the article (instead of knee-jerk post to spam your blog) it's about the hardware and legal changes that have superseded Carnivore.

pcscdma
hi
Premium Member
join:2004-01-14
Winterset, IA
ARRIS SB8200
Nest H2D

pcscdma

Premium Member

Re: Irrelevant; Old news;Then why post it here?

I noticed that a large amount of 'first posts' come from FFH5 See Profile too. It is also strange because they all seem to be 'edited' a few minutes after they are posted. And why does one need to use tinyurl to post a link to the Red Room?

Anon_Name
@nrockv01.md.comcast.

Anon_Name to FFH5

Anon

to FFH5
must be a really slow day for news considering G. W. Bush is doin' his thing today

Although, it's gonna be interesting to see what the EFF comes up with as it relates to data from the filing of the FIA.

yock
TFTC
Premium Member
join:2000-11-21
Miamisburg, OH

yock to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

If this news is irrelevant and old news, then why is it being headlined here?

Maybe just another attack on the lawful US surveillance of criminals and terrorists by those who would like to see us at their mercy.
I think you missed his point. I want to see terrorism quelled around the globe as much as anyone, but this is one issue in which I'm with the left. Are we to simply trust that our government will not use personal information gathered through the Patriot Act for illegal means? It is important to remember that this isn't our elected officials utilizing this information, but intelligence and law enforcement agencies staffed by people who actively seek their employment.

Consider this.

Terrorists have already managed to topple two of the most prominent features of any American cityscape through lawful use of flight schools and lawful purchase of airline tickets. How plausible, if not admittedly difficult and improbable, would it be for a terrorist to gain employment in one of these agencies? Would not the Patriot Act become a dangerous weapon to be used against us?

We should always be weary about giving our government permissions that we wouldn't give another private citizen. It is these private citizens who go to work everyday to protect us. If there are but a few bad apples among them, God help us all.

Minister
join:2002-01-02
Fleeting

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Minister

Member

Re: Irrelevant; Old news;Then why post it here?

I don't even see it as a Partisan issue, personally. Carnivore was developed under Clinton; Patriot Act under Bush. It's simply a human issue. If one gets technical, you could say it's a Conservative issue since they believe in less government intrusion and smaller government. I see many people who suffer from partisan think disease "poo-poo" the issue. We need more enlightened thinking than that.

yock
TFTC
Premium Member
join:2000-11-21
Miamisburg, OH

1 edit

1 recommendation

yock

Premium Member

Re: Irrelevant; Old news;Then why post it here?

I don't see how indicating that I agree with the liberals on an issue is inciting partisan politics. You sound as if you discount my entire argument just because I used political affiliations to make my point.

The truth of that matter is that you're absolutely right correct. But there will invariably be groups of people who associate with each other who share similar beliefs. Those people aren't "unenlightened," they simply want to be heard.

Minister
join:2002-01-02
Fleeting

Minister

Member

Re: Irrelevant; Old news;Then why post it here?

Sorry, I was referring more to the first poster, who seems to immediately engage in partisan (defend GWB policy at all cost) punditry with mindless rhetoric about how people who'd criticize US surveillance policies must want to see the country "at the terrorist's mercy"....

That's small thinking.

nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium Member
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA

3 recommendations

nixen to yock

Premium Member

to yock
said by yock:

I don't see how indicating that I agree with the liberals on an issue is inciting Parisian politics.
Who cares about about the political leanings of the citizens of Paris?

-tom

yock
TFTC
Premium Member
join:2000-11-21
Miamisburg, OH

yock

Premium Member

Re: Irrelevant; Old news;Then why post it here?

said by nixen:
said by yock:

I don't see how indicating that I agree with the liberals on an issue is inciting Parisian politics.
Who cares about about the political leanings of the citizens of Paris?

-tom
I was wondering why the hell spell checker capitalized it....=)

LinuxJunkie
join:2005-01-19
Cyberspace

2 edits

LinuxJunkie to yock

Member

to yock
quote:
I think you missed his point. I want to see terrorism quelled around the globe as much as anyone, but this is one issue in which I'm with the left. Are we to simply trust that our government will not use personal information gathered through the Patriot Act for illegal means?
You'll also notice that it's "the left" that is also notorious for concocting long-winded conspiracy theories non-stop (my favorite being Hillary's "vast right-wing conspiracy" theory). And what, might I ask, makes you so important as to think that Uncle Sam would actually want to waste time, money and resources just to make your life a living hell? Seems like a lot of people that get all uptight about online "privacy" (doesn't exist -- any hacker can install a packet listener on any network, as long as they have access to at least one compromised machine on the subnet) have serious cases of narcissism.
LinuxJunkie

LinuxJunkie to yock

Member

to yock
quote:
How plausible, if not admittedly difficult and improbable, would it be for a terrorist to gain employment in one of these agencies?
Probably highly unlikely. They'd probably have to pass at least one (probably multiple) lie detector tests before even being considered. Contrary to what many think, intelligence agencies aren't run like "CTU" on 24.

JoeOnSunset
Doublethink Is Doubleplus Ungood.
Premium Member
join:2002-11-25
Ormond Beach, FL

1 edit

JoeOnSunset to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
The story is relevant and posted here because it's important to realize that unchecked, unconstitutional surveillance of this type continues--- despite "Carnivore" being "dead."

tomkb
Premium Member
join:2000-11-15
Tampa, FL

tomkb

Premium Member

funny

Our company implemented calea to be compliant a while back and it has never been used by any agency.

rumor is that law enforcement is not ready for calea.
BarneyBadAss
Badasses Fight For Freedom
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
00001

BarneyBadAss

Premium Member

Re: funny

Um... you sure you can think let alone say something like this publicly?? considering all the hush-hush about anything revolving around the patriot act?

Quick... run.. hide in a spider hole....

adnon23
@cox.net

adnon23

Anon

partiot provision overturned

this story has incorrect data. About 6 months ago the part of the patriot act that allowed fbi warrantless data requests and disallowed client notification for isps was overturned by the supreme court.

Therefore this entire story is irrelevant.
chickenhq
Ozon3
join:2001-11-28
here

chickenhq

Member

Re: partiot provision overturned

Infowars.com

Nuff said

ctceo
Premium Member
join:2001-04-26
South Bend, IN

ctceo

Premium Member

w/o reason

They've got these systems installed everywhere. What makes people think that it is "dead"?

Certainly there have to be some people out there that know the truth.

libertyforall
@comcast.net

libertyforall

Anon

Less Government?

Minister See Profile "..If one gets technical, you could say it's a Conservative issue since they believe in less government intrusion and smaller government. I see many people who suffer from partisan think disease "poo-poo" the issue. We need more enlightened thinking than that."
I admit im a little slow. But explain to me how the creation of the Homeland Security, National Intelligence Centers, other cabinet level spys and draconian laws like 'Patriot' Act are an example of conservatives wanting "less government intrusion and smaller government." ??

All of these were created under the Bush Administration.