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DirecTV's Last Broadband Gasp
'Spaceway' sats not for broadband
DirecTV has announced that the company will be facing a $1.6 billion charge, since they've decided to use their "Spaceway" Ka-band satellites for HDTV and other content, and not broadband service. When the Wall Street Journal hinted at such a move last May, DirecTV issued a defensive press release decrying the claims as inaccurate. Hindered by latency, satellite broadband service has long-been a choice for users with no other option; as America gets wired (or wireless, as the case may be), the demand for such services continues to dwindle.
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FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

4 edits

FFH5

Premium Member

High flying blimps may be alternative to DirecTV

High flying blimps may be alternative to DirecTV's internet product. The US military uses balloons/blimps in Iraq and Afghanistan for communications and surveillance. »www.boston.com/news/nati ··· _blimps/
Industry has been examining something similar in the US for wireless communications and internet access.
»www.apcmag.com/apc/v3.ns ··· 00120D7A
But that’s not to say dreams of mega-speed Web downloads are over. Challenging Proteus for sheer audacity is the Stratellite, a giant airship that uses solar powered engines to sit at about 65,000ft, beaming data over a radius of about 77,700 square kilometres — think blimp meets mobile phone tower.

The Stratellite, which has been developed by a company called Sanswire, is 74.6m long, 44.2m high, and contains nearly 37 million litres of gas. Made of Kevlar, the dirigible is powered by electric motors and held in a position determined by six GPS units. In addition to Internet data, it can be fitted for mobile phone transmission, paging, fixed wireless telephony and high definition TV broadcasts. The downside is that the Stratellite can only sustain 18 months in the air without repairs.

It’s also cumbersome, but the blimp’s advantage over satellites is that it sits much lower to the ground, so it theoretically doesn’t suffer from the same data lag problems.
BBWEST
join:2004-09-05
Port Angeles, WA

1 recommendation

BBWEST

Member

Re: High flying blimps may be alternative to DirecTV

How bout Bowel
Broadband over waterline ethernet link

Yeah thatll work

Or we country bumbkins can stick with
JSTP
Jack sh*t to Premises

tomatoe
Premium Member
join:2002-08-03
Kansas City, MO

tomatoe to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
Blimps are the worst idea in the history or Broadband, I'm sorry

Hayward0
K A R - 1 2 0 C
Premium Member
join:2000-07-13
Key West, FL

Hayward0 to FFH5

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to FFH5
said by FFH5:

High flying blimps may be alternative to DirecTV's internet product. The US military uses balloons/blimps in Iraq and Afghanistan for communications and surveillance.
And they use them here to (ineffectually) propagandise Cuba as well
Problem with such technology though is it can only work in perfect weather... how many places is that true??? And even here where much of the year it is, though often to windy when clear... I doubt they are up more than about 50% of the time and mostly daylight hours where they can observe them and low flying planes can see them.
vic102482
Premium Member
join:2002-04-30
Upper Marlboro, MD

vic102482

Premium Member

DTV should focus on HDTV and lowering prices

They could easily sqeeze competetors like comcast into a pinch if they added some more value to their service like a free tivo with 2 year signup or something like that, and stopped charging for extra recievers. Latency and satellite will always be a problem, you are talking 26,000 miles round trip.

Jeremy341
Bye
Premium Member
join:2000-01-06
localhost

Jeremy341

Premium Member

Re: DTV should focus on HDTV and lowering prices

said by vic102482:

Latency and satellite will always be a problem, you are talking 26,000 miles round trip.
It's actually 22,000 miles one way, and 44,000 miles round trip. It takes about 250 milliseconds for a round trip, so considering the fact that the signal has to make two round trips for Internet access, the distance alone is adding 500 milliseconds. Then you have to include the time it takes for the data to get from the NOC to the server, and back. There's just no way of reducing the latency with geosynchronous satellites.

That being said, and me being a DirecTV customer, I was very glad to hear that they were re-purposing Spaceway to do HD.
Queasy
join:2004-01-20
Lawrenceville, GA

Queasy to vic102482

Member

to vic102482
There are a lot of things I'd like DTV to do. Freeing up these satellites for more HDTV is a start. I believe they are launching two more satellites early next year and are planning on having 1500+ HD channels available.

I'd also like for them to turn on the USB ports on the DirecTivos and enable the HMO option. I've upgraded my main DirecTivo receiver in my living room to record 160 hours but would like to share the content with the DirecTivo receiver in the bedroom.

However, since DirecTV and Tivo seem to be on the way out when their contract ends, that may be wishful thinking.
vic102482
Premium Member
join:2002-04-30
Upper Marlboro, MD

vic102482

Premium Member

Re: DTV should focus on HDTV and lowering prices

said by Queasy:

There are a lot of things I'd like DTV to do. Freeing up these satellites for more HDTV is a start. I believe they are launching two more satellites early next year and are planning on having 1500+ HD channels available.

I'd also like for them to turn on the USB ports on the DirecTivos and enable the HMO option. I've upgraded my main DirecTivo receiver in my living room to record 160 hours but would like to share the content with the DirecTivo receiver in the bedroom.

However, since DirecTV and Tivo seem to be on the way out when their contract ends, that may be wishful thinking.
Whats going to happen to existing tivo users?
Queasy
join:2004-01-20
Lawrenceville, GA

Queasy

Member

Re: DTV should focus on HDTV and lowering prices

said by vic102482:

Whats going to happen to existing tivo users?
Dunno. I imagine the hardware would still be usable (Ultimate TV is still supported despite being dead) but there would be no new DTV/Tivo product lines. DirecTV is supposed to be coming out with their own DVR in the next year or so based off of technology from a UK company. Keep in mind though that the DirecTV/Tivo contract runs to 2006 or 2007.
vic102482
Premium Member
join:2002-04-30
Upper Marlboro, MD

vic102482

Premium Member

Re: DTV should focus on HDTV and lowering prices

said by Queasy:
said by vic102482:


Whats going to happen to existing tivo users?
Dunno. I imagine the hardware would still be usable (Ultimate TV is still supported despite being dead) but there would be no new DTV/Tivo product lines. DirecTV is supposed to be coming out with their own DVR in the next year or so based off of technology from a UK company. Keep in mind though that the DirecTV/Tivo contract runs to 2006 or 2007.
I wish they could part ways, Im sick of not being able to transfer to my computer without hhaving to modify the box. I got alot of shows like the DIY and just crazy football games that I dont want to delete. Itd be so mch easier if I could put it on my computer to burn to DVD.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine

Member

Re: DTV should focus on HDTV and lowering prices

said by vic102482:

I wish they could part ways, Im sick of not being able to transfer to my computer without hhaving to modify the box. I got alot of shows like the DIY and just crazy football games that I dont want to delete. Itd be so mch easier if I could put it on my computer to burn to DVD.
Bear in mind that regardless of who is providing DVR's for DirecTV, it's always going to be difficult to get them to allow you to transfer perfect digital copies of shows off DTV and onto DVD. Hollywood is not going to like that one bit.
vic102482
Premium Member
join:2002-04-30
Upper Marlboro, MD

vic102482

Premium Member

Re: DTV should focus on HDTV and lowering prices

said by fifty nine:
said by vic102482:


I wish they could part ways, Im sick of not being able to transfer to my computer without hhaving to modify the box. I got alot of shows like the DIY and just crazy football games that I dont want to delete. Itd be so mch easier if I could put it on my computer to burn to DVD.
Bear in mind that regardless of who is providing DVR's for DirecTV, it's always going to be difficult to get them to allow you to transfer perfect digital copies of shows off DTV and onto DVD. Hollywood is not going to like that one bit.
Yeah but doesnt Tivos competetor allow that out of the box?

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI

Nightfall to Queasy

MVM

to Queasy
said by Queasy:
said by vic102482:


Whats going to happen to existing tivo users?
Dunno. I imagine the hardware would still be usable (Ultimate TV is still supported despite being dead) but there would be no new DTV/Tivo product lines. DirecTV is supposed to be coming out with their own DVR in the next year or so based off of technology from a UK company. Keep in mind though that the DirecTV/Tivo contract runs to 2006 or 2007.
Tivo is still king right now in my opinion. Directivo is the greatest thing since sliced bread and has changed the way I watch TV. Now, if Directv does ditch Tivo and come out with a new box, that is fine. It is my hope that this other DVR will be better than Tivo which is why they would move to it.
mglunt
join:2001-09-10
Fredericksburg, VA

mglunt to Queasy

Member

to Queasy
From a couple Tivo / DTV message boards, I have heard that Tivo will continue to be DTV's "premium" DVR for the fee, with something else with maybe no fee or a smaller fee as a standard option.

DTV would anger a ton of their customers if they cut ties with Tivo... including me.

Maybe DTV plans to finally upgrade to 4.0 (HMO support), charge more for the Tivo, but offer the standard DVR without service fees or something. I do think that stand alone Tivo service is more with HMO than without. Not sure on that though.
JofCore
join:2004-09-15
Sebewaing, MI

JofCore to Queasy

Member

to Queasy
I'd also like for them to turn on the USB ports on the DirecTivos and enable the HMO option. I've upgraded my main DirecTivo receiver in my living room to record 160 hours but would like to share the content with the DirecTivo receiver in the bedroom.
I'm pretty sure you can enable the USB ports on the DirecTivos w/a hack. I have a series1 which doesn't have USB, so I'm not positive though (had to add internal network card on mine )

Anyway, once you enable the USB and get a USB network adapter, you can then extract and insert shows into either TiVo. I'm not sure if there's a way to "share" w/out the manual extraction/insertion process. (You can, however, stream programs directly off your TiVo to an xbox running XBMC...)

A couple places to look for info are:
www.tivocommunity.com
www.dealdatabase.com/forum/

Hayward0
K A R - 1 2 0 C
Premium Member
join:2000-07-13
Key West, FL

Hayward0 to vic102482

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to vic102482
said by vic102482:

you are talking 26,000 miles round trip.
Sorry no more like 92,000 miles 2 way round trip... and still 46,000 for land return systems.

furlonium
join:2002-05-08
Allentown, PA

furlonium

Member

Lower latency?

So would these new satellites have given customers a much lower latency, somehow? Or just faster broadband access? I'm thinking the latter; the article doesn't give much info.

DirecTV's gonna piss off a lotta people. They pull crap like this, probably knowing that most of their customers can't get any other broadband options, like DSL/Cable.

SpitefulCrow
Insert Witty Tag Here
Premium Member
join:2003-06-04
Berkeley, CA

SpitefulCrow

Premium Member

Re: Lower latency?

Well I wouldn't exactly call satellite internet "broadband"...

starstuff
Fly By Wire
Premium Member
join:2001-12-05
Mcallen, TX

starstuff

Premium Member

Re: Lower latency?

.12 sec going up and .12 sec down, .24 sec (240ms) total... at least. Not for gamers, VOIP, VPNs and other critical latency applications.
BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Wakefield, MA

BosstonesOwn

Member

Re: Lower latency?

I use vpn via cisco for work with cellular networks and my latency is around 400 ms. Works fine. However satellite is something like 600 + ms latency.
joebear29
totesmcgoats
join:2003-07-20
Alabaster, AL

joebear29 to SpitefulCrow

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to SpitefulCrow
Why not? It can have a fairly good downstream. Sure there are restrictions, but it's still broadband.
BBWEST
join:2004-09-05
Port Angeles, WA

BBWEST

Member

Re: Lower latency?

It is not broadband 500ms + lag more like 1 second plus
no matter how much pipe you have it sucks.

No VOIP no VPN which is what I need it for its not broadband.

You either work for QWORST or the Goverment.

Hayward0
K A R - 1 2 0 C
Premium Member
join:2000-07-13
Key West, FL

Hayward0

Premium Member

Re: Lower latency?

Or they just don give a crap about real time intensive application and just like the relatively massive speed increase over dial-up.

Latency is no part of the term broadband... just bandwidth.

Latency is just a qualifier.
joebear29
totesmcgoats
join:2003-07-20
Alabaster, AL

joebear29 to BBWEST

Member

to BBWEST
said by BBWEST:

It is not broadband 500ms + lag more like 1 second plus
no matter how much pipe you have it sucks.

No VOIP no VPN which is what I need it for its not broadband.

You either work for QWORST or the Goverment.
As Hayward pointed out, low latency is not required for broadband.

And what is up with people accusing others of working for others? So far, I've been accused of working for the government, BellSouth, Charter, OOL, the RIAA, the MPAA and now Qwest. Apparently some people cannot understand that someone disagrees with them unless that person is being paid by the other side.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Karl Bode to furlonium

News Guy

to furlonium
It would have provided greater bandwidth:

»www.hns.com/HNS/Rooms/Di ··· F811F0]]

The latency problem isn't going away unless they find a way to shatter the laws of physics.
DarkGryphon7
join:2004-04-16
Jamison, PA

DarkGryphon7

Member

Re: Lower latency?

Tachyon burst transmitters! Or quantum waveform fold generators. Either one should do the trick.


furlonium
join:2002-05-08
Allentown, PA

furlonium

Member

Re: Lower latency?

said by DarkGryphon7:

Tachyon burst transmitters! Or quantum waveform fold generators. Either one should do the trick.


or a Flux Capacitor
raythompsontn
join:2001-01-11
Oliver Springs, TN

raythompsontn

Member

Re: Lower latency?

said by furlonium:

said by DarkGryphon7:


Tachyon burst transmitters! Or quantum waveform fold generators. Either one should do the trick.


or a Flux Capacitor
But in that case wouldn't your message arrive before it left?
Freezone
join:2000-09-29
Southfield, MI

Freezone

Member

Re: Lower latency?

Well you could calibrate i to be excatly 0 ms. We do not want to mess up the time stream. Man that would be an ethical question worse than stem cell research.

antwanp
Lovably Pompous
Premium Member
join:2002-05-14
Cedar Hill, TX

antwanp

Premium Member

Re: Lower latency?

Perhaps the bigger question is where is the average persong going to get 1.21 Jigawatts(Gigawatts)?

booyakasha!
-Antwan L.
stridr69
join:2003-05-19
San Luis Obispo, CA

stridr69

Member

Re: Lower latency?

K-Mart
Jeeze!!!!

Kompressor
Premium Member
join:2002-02-12
Huntington Beach, CA

Kompressor to DarkGryphon7

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to DarkGryphon7
SubSpace signals would cure the problem.

You could have a real-time telephone conversation with someone in our neighboring star-system using subspace technology.

Subspace signals travel many times faster than the speed of light, but subspace radio signals, even those highly focused and radially polarized will decay over time and even "surface" to become normal slower EM. Therefore a subspace relay will have to be set every 22.65 light years under optimal galactic conditions. Note that this is an approximation, subatomic particles, dark matter and high intensity gravity wells have been known to disrupt, deflect or even absorb subspace transmissions, therefore an average string-cell will be approximately twenty light years.

Scientists continue to conduct experiments with higher energy levels in an attempt to drive communications signals into "deeper" layers of subspace, where it is thought the signal will travel up to 80% farther prior to decay.

••••

Hall
MVM
join:2000-04-28
Germantown, OH

Hall to furlonium

MVM

to furlonium
said by furlonium:

DirecTV's gonna piss off a lotta people. They pull crap like this, probably knowing that most of their customers can't get any other broadband options, like DSL/Cable.
DirecTV will head in the direction of increasing profits and I'm betting that "satellite internet access" ain't it... HDTV is the future of television and this gives D* an enormous advantage.
jbjetta
Premium Member
join:2004-07-23
Manassas, VA

jbjetta

Premium Member

the good and the bad about this

Actually, I know people who are loosing their jobs over this decision. The idea of the program was to use Ka band which is lower latency then the current satellites using along with more data throughput. Sure latency wouldn't be that great, but still Ka is lower latency frequency.

In the end I am happy they are putting the bandwidth to use by carrying HD channels, now I just hope those on the project can find other jobs at Hughs or somewhere else.

•••••••••••••
BBWEST
join:2004-09-05
Port Angeles, WA

BBWEST

Member

SBB is a waste

The latency issue makes it slower than dialup for vpn and VOIP forget it.
Then like me NLOS makes it impossible to get.
Oh and the price .....

Hayward0
K A R - 1 2 0 C
Premium Member
join:2000-07-13
Key West, FL

Hayward0

Premium Member

Re: SBB is a waste

said by BBWEST:

The latency issue makes it slower than dialup
No it DOESN'T.... just less responsive.... once a stream is flowing it kicks dial-up's a**

IT IS a GIVEN that it is NOT for time critical applications....SO WHAT? there is lots of other stuff out there, that cooks and makes dial-up pale.

chd176
join:2003-01-10
Winfield, AL
·CenturyLink

chd176

Member

no other choice

I'm now on DSL but I was using Direcway for almost a year and I know how some people have that as their only choice. I for one, feel bad for DirecTV only using these satellites for HDTV. Customers in rural areas need a choice of a broadband like service. Sure it's no DSL or Cable and there is always going to be horrible latency but the speeds should be improved...even more so the slower than dialup uploads. Thankfully WildBlue is coming out but until consumers actually start using it then it is still just a hype. I would like more HDTV channels just like the next person I just think it should be shared for internet access as well.

Hayward0
K A R - 1 2 0 C
Premium Member
join:2000-07-13
Key West, FL

Hayward0

Premium Member

Re: no other choice

said by chd176:

Customers in rural areas need a choice of a broadband like service. Sure it's no DSL or Cable and there is always going to be horrible latency but the speeds should be improved.
And part of the problem is that since they don't TARGET ADS/SALES that way... a LOT of the bandwidth is taken up by those that DON'T REALLY need it.

It is starting to drop off as word of mouth spreads, but it has astounded me over the last few years, the number of people posting here complaining that didn't even HAVE to use satellite.

schmunk
Premium Member
join:2001-03-03
Defiance, OH

1 edit

schmunk

Premium Member

General Motors for ya!

Why does'nt GM hook antennas to they SUVs and smoke stacks for a good time? Or maybe use Onstar or XM satellites since they own these too!

techguyga
Premium Member
join:2003-12-31
00000

techguyga

Premium Member

Re: General Motors for ya!

OnStar uses the existing cellular network. That wouldn't work any better than what's already been tried on the cellular net.
p71rock
join:2003-06-16
Saint Clair, MI

p71rock

Member

Gm and DirecTV

Please Note that GM no longer owns DirecTV or DirecWay

schmunk
Premium Member
join:2001-03-03
Defiance, OH

schmunk

Premium Member

Re: Gm and DirecTV

General Motors Corporation manufactures and sells vehicles worldwide under the Chevrolet, Buick, Cadillac, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Saturn, and GMC names. The Company also has financing and insurance operations. In addition, General Motors produces products and provides services in other industries such as satellite and wireless communications.

tomkb
Premium Member
join:2000-11-15
Tampa, FL

tomkb

Premium Member

Of course!

>>When the Wall Street Journal hinted at such a move last May, DirecTV issued a defensive press release decrying the claims as inaccurate.

Well, yes, the executive options wouldn't be coming due until now.
mglunt
join:2001-09-10
Fredericksburg, VA

mglunt

Member

Sat great for rural areas, but...



Sat is great for rural customers, but I get the feeling that DTV didn't think they would get enough additional customers in the near future to make full use of this Sat in that way. I don't understand all the details, but it makes sense to me. I also don't know how many internet customers they have or if the number is growing or falling.

As DSL and Cable are brought to more homes, those people in those areas with Sat internet are probably dropping it.

People living in Rural areas probably don't have jobs / lifestyles that require HSI. So, getting them to pay the price of Sat internet is probably not easy either.

Its great that it is available, and if I had no other option, I would sign up, but in areas where other choices are available, the technology just can't compete... unless the local cable company is a complete joke.

••••

GlenQuagmire
Giggidy Giggidy Giggidy Goo
Premium Member
join:2004-02-16
Grand Rapids, MI

GlenQuagmire

Premium Member

Who Cares

Directv has great TV content but their broadband sucks. Who want to play UT 2004 with 600ms + ping times. Nothing I will miss.

•••••
PDXPLT
join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR

PDXPLT

Member

'hope WildBlue stays the course ...

With no Cable here, satellite will be my only Broadband option for a long, long time.

WildBlue says they'll work with VPN.

As for latency, I'm over 12 years old and have a life, so I don't care a rat's arse about games.
icertweak
join:2002-10-24
Yorkton, SK

icertweak

Member

Latency???

You do know that when you talk on a cell phone there is a good chance the latency is around 300-500 ms.. just call yourself from your cell to a landline and you will here the latency... So if thats the case then VOIP would not really suffer...

Hayward0
K A R - 1 2 0 C
Premium Member
join:2000-07-13
Key West, FL

Hayward0

Premium Member

Re: Latency???


Well except that with switching and added land (and VOIP netwoirk itself) delays its closer to a full second,
But if you can learn to treat it like a walkie talkie where you pause and don't intereupt it can still physically work.

M-Phoenix
@rtchrd01.md.comcast.

M-Phoenix

Anon

Quantum Entanglement anyone?

Here is an interesting theory that could solve the problem

»physics.about.com/gi/dyn ··· _inequal ity.html

and another
»www.newscientist.com/hot ··· ooky.jsp

And here is it being tested

We report the first experimental long distance demonstration of this fascinating aspect of quantum mechanics," said Nicolas Gisin, a physicist at the University of Geneva.

His team teleported qubits carried by photons—particles of light—of 0.05 inch (1.3mm) wavelength in one laboratory onto photons of 0.06 inch (1.55mm) wavelength in another laboratory 180 feet (55 meters) away along 1.2 miles (2 kilometers) of fiber optic wire.

In 1997 and again in 1998, scientists successfully demonstrated the concept of quantum teleportation by transferring two dimensional systems over short distances, such as from one side of a table to the next. Gisin and his team prove that the concept of quantum teleportation holds up at longer distances.

»news.nationalgeographic. ··· ort.html

calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA

calvoiper

Member

More pains of the "huge footprint"

Once again, I get to sound like a broken record:

These "huge footprint" solutions for BB do little more than waste frequencies--especially when considering denser, urban areas.

Yes, having a base station antenna which can cover some large number of square miles makes sense when you are trying to serve ranchers in Utah--but it makes no sense at all in any of our urban areas.

Satellite, as the ultimate "big footprint" can't even distinguish between covering ranches outside Green River, UT and Salt Lake City--much less Denver or Phoenix. When a satellite uses some portion of its capacity to handle a VoIP user's conversation, that capacity is wiped out for the entire satellite coverage area--about half or two-thirds of the US. What a waste.

There are wireless BB solutions of value--but they have footprints appropriate with the densities of the areas they will cover. Satellite has only one footprint, and it's huge.

The truly interesting question is whether top management at DirectTV knew and understood this before investing billions, or whether they were ignorant of the basic limitations of their product capacity.

Calvoiper