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BT Discovers Routers
'There's this amazing new idea...'
From a British Telecom announcement they'll be offering routers: "Many households increasingly have more than one PC or internet-enabled device," realizes a BT exec. "The frustration, up until now, has been that only one could ever be used at any one time - This is set to change." It used to be ISP's hated NAT and wanted everyone to pay extra for an easily self-created home network. Now, apparently realizing ignoring the technology wasn't working, a number of ISP's on both sides of the Atlantic are offering both Wi-Fi and standard routers as standard fare.
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Carl
Premium Member
join:2004-07-21
Lafayette, LA

Carl

Premium Member

LOL

"The frustration, up until now, has been that only one could ever be used at any one time - This is set to change."

Hmmm.... don't they know that people can just buy a router and use it??
I do it on my Bellsouth DSL, and I DON'T pay the 5 bucks a month for their stuff!
DMWCincy
join:2004-04-27
Fairfield, OH

1 recommendation

DMWCincy

Member

Re: LOL

The problem is people don't realize they do not have to pay the extra $5 a month. I worked on a persons network the other day where she was renting the wireless router from her ISP for 5 months now. She didn't know she could have bought her own router and not pay the extra fee. After I explained it all to her, she agreed it was horrible for the ISP to charge the fee, cancelled the account, went to another ISP and had me go with her to pick up the router.

It all comes down to getting the information in the hands of those that need it.

nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium Member
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA

nixen to Carl

Premium Member

to Carl
said by Carl:
"The frustration, up until now, has been that only one could ever be used at any one time - This is set to change."

Hmmm.... don't they know that people can just buy a router and use it??
My little SPARC 10's been doing this for me for over six years, now...

-tom

Glaice
Brutal Video Vault
Premium Member
join:2002-10-01
North Babylon, NY

Glaice to Carl

Premium Member

to Carl
Well this shows how dumb the tech twits at BT are...

Brad123213
@ibm.com

Brad123213 to Carl

Anon

to Carl
I think it is justifiable for ISPs to charge $5 per month for people who aren't technically inclined. I know you're thinking that setting up a router is very easy, and I agree. But I have relatives and friends who I helped setup a router, after they couldn't follow the documentation.
Some people just don't completely understand the concepts, and if they're willing to pay the $5, so be it. They also get support for that router for $5 a month, so they don't call you when they have a problem.
yac898
join:2002-12-06
Stony Plain, AB

yac898

Member

Re: LOL

i install inet for a local isp and frequently h/u routers for the customer(no chg). we are expected to make the customers equipment work. who chgs $5/mth ?/ will they hook it up for you? will they set the keys/pswds/ect for you MONTHLY for the $5?. what does the $5/mth get you? if someone hacks that equip, is that isp libel?

newview
Ex .. Ex .. Exactly
Premium Member
join:2001-10-01
Parsonsburg, MD

newview

Premium Member

Protect YOUR network, ISPs

When are broadband ISPs going to realize that supplying a NAT router wih all new and exisiting installations translates into less problems with spam and security issues, therby saving THEM money?

Of course, this will only work if they don't charge extra for installation, setup, use, rent, etc. Their past history doesn't instill confidence that this will happen.

keyboard5684
Sam
join:2001-08-01
Pittsburgh, PA

keyboard5684

Member

Re: Protect YOUR network, ISPs

Well, security issues? The only security is the users, not the ISPs. The ISP normally keeps things secure just fine already.

Spam, maybe. But again I think this usually ends up being the customers problem when they get shut off.

A NAT router is about $50. If a customer wants one buy one.

Asking an ISP to provide a modem, a router, and whatever else the customer may want for free (how about the PC?) means slower deployment of broadband. Anything the ISP gives you for free costs them money. The install itself costs money let alone the hardware. The more the ISP pays out the higher the prices or the slower they are able to deploy better/more services.

TechyDad
Premium Member
join:2001-07-13
USA

TechyDad

Premium Member

Re: Protect YOUR network, ISPs

said by keyboard5684:

A NAT router is about $50. If a customer wants one buy one.

NewEgg has routers at half that price.

»www.newegg.com/app/viewP ··· 8&DEPA=0

RipTides
join:2002-05-25
Dallas, GA

RipTides to keyboard5684

Member

to keyboard5684
quote:
..security issues? The only security is the users, not the ISPs. The ISP normally keeps things secure just fine already..
Thats Right, its not like my connection is wide open and my computer available for the screwing the minute I plug in my new Dell with its XP SP1 operating system straight from the Modem to the NID. Wait a minute my computer is going to shut down in 90sec? Must be ALL my damn fault.

Sure every ISP enjoys non-accountability until their customers zombie machines are plastering every Inbox with SPAM. But at what point are companies (manufacturers and ISPs) going to realize that if they took ONE step to either HELPING users learn about security, or PROVIDING more than a popup blocker then the internet would be a much safter place for everyone. If both PC manufacturers AND ISP's offered Informational packets regarding online security OR how to set up more secure systems to new users IT JUST MIGHT give Joe Public a clue on how to protect himself and not be part of the BIG problem online.
quote:
Asking an ISP to provide a modem, a router, and whatever else the customer may want for free (how about the PC?) means slower deployment of broadband.
Bullshit.
Show me one source on this Great Wide Web that backs up your claim that A)ISP's give away anything for free B)That this *so called* free stuff slows down deployment. The minute you sign up with ANY company you pay up front IN FULL for the cost of the install, modem, and any other thing they can possibly tack on at that point.

And don't try to come back waving Rebates in my face. Rebates are not synonymous with FREE in the least. Yes, rebates can compensate YOU in full for the the price of certain items, if you fill them out, get them mailed in time, and, the Gods willing, they don't become LOST. But they are issued/paid by 3rd parties, not by the ISP. The ISP pay the rebate companies a predetermined amount based on some archaic mathamatical formula, which ensures that they are NOT going to lose money on the deal and the rebate issuers will still make a tidy profit.

derekk
@comcast.net

derekk

Anon

Re: Protect YOUR network, ISPs

What are you talking about? ISPs have been giving away free cable modems, DSL modems, and 2Wire home modems for years when users sign up for their service. Keep the service more than 1 year, keep the modem. Quit the service, you must return the free modem. They do this to stimulate adoption, much as cellphone vendors subsidize phones.

Oh yeah, you issued the *tough* challenge of finding a link to such free equipment (your A). I dunno, how about..since we're on the topic...BT? »www.bt.com/broadband/bb_info.jsp
Took me all of 5 seconds to find that.

And to help the other guy out with his point (your B), if ISPs spend all their money on free equipment, then they have less money to invest in upgrading the network, and less financial gain if they do so because as the new network wins customers, they need to buy them more free equipment.

It can take carriers up to a year before they pay off the free equipment they gave, and start making a profit on subscribers. Hey, I don't love the telcos, but get at least 33% of your facts straight before posting.

RipTides
join:2002-05-25
Dallas, GA

RipTides

Member

Re: Protect YOUR network, ISPs

I'm so glad you brought this to me and think that you, if you ordered a highly priced metered service, or a lower lower priced craptacular tier through BT, you would be getting something for nothing. Sorry but thats not the case.

In BT's case, if you order online, to avoid the 25 pound modem fee, then you THINK you are getting it for free. Cancel before your term is up.. then yes, send back the modem, and then pay for the rest of the service you don't have anymore, in FULL. Now what part of what is FREE ? Obviously you think something is FREE just because it says so.

Also if you think all these FREE things you speak of aren't being subsidized into the monthly fees then i don't know what to tell you. A $99 retail modem does not cost the ISP's $99 when they enter into contracts with manufacturers and supply in bulk. And by the time your contract is up you have definitely paid for the price of the modem, install, whathaveyou.

Early adopters of any tech *cellular, broadband, whatever* will always pay a higher price, but to claim that things are suddenly FREE and are costing ISP's so much money that they fail to be able to roll out more services in a timely manner is ludicrous.

Now that your straw man is picked clean, next time learn to bring something better to the argument.

mibagent_x
Go giggle the handle
Premium Member
join:2001-03-04
Barnhart, MO

mibagent_x

Premium Member

Re: Protect YOUR network, ISPs

Chip on your shoulder rip_sketches? You are sounding like a reall butthead. You really need to loose the arrogant attitude. How about some proof instead of just telling someone is wrong. Most news discussions are pointless anymore people are starting to sound like 6yr olds fighting on a playground.

derekk
@comcast.net

derekk

Anon

Re: Protect YOUR network, ISPs

Rip_sketchy

Wow. You show a high propensity for hubris, paired with a slight disability to understand the written word. When I said "It can take carriers up to a year before they pay off the free equipment they gave." you responded with, "Also if you think all these FREE things you speak of aren't being subsidized into the monthly fees then i don't know what to tell you." Well, you certainly can't tell me that you read (and understood) what I wrote.

Maybe I use too big words. Let's address this one last time, but I'll try to make it simple.

Almost nothing in the world is "free" without strings. Companies, for certain, will never give away something for free without an ulterior motive. BT is not giving away free Customer Premise Equipment (CPE) for free because they like the good folks of the UK - they don't give a tinker's cuss about the good folks. The only motivation for giving away free CPE is to make the cost of starting DSL service less of a barrier for the customer. The service provider DOES provide this CPE free, and DOES take a hit in the wallet for so doing.

Now your challenge was: "Show me one source on this Great Wide Web that backs up your claim that A)ISPs give away anything for free." Your condition was "no rebates". In 5 seconds of searching, I posted such a web site. Most men of sense and honour would have acknowledged a setback in their argument. Not you. In an almost Clinton-esque way, you argued the definition of the word "free", and did so with all the steadfastness of a George W. Bush.

It is free not 'just because BT says so', but because if you were to go to BT and say "I don't want your free CPE, just give me the DSL service." You would not get a discounted price from people who accepted the free modem. The price for the DSL service is fixed, and is not dependent on whether you take a modem or not. If you fulfill your year contract, you now own the modem - but you never paid for it, you paid only the market rate for DSL service (or cellular service in the case of "free phones"). This is a contingent free offer: "do x and get y free". Buy service, get a free modem. Like "buy one pizza, get one free". Sure, in either case, the contingency takes some of the merit out of the word "free", but so long as the fist pizza is at market prices, the customer is getting a freebie.

Now, I said that the fact that the service provider needs to invest in CPE causes a big capital drain on them, and thus limits their available capital to invest in network upgrades. You say bollocks to that. Well, I suppose I can only tell you that I have worked on multiple business plans inside of service providers (cellular phone service, wireless ISPs), and in each case one of the biggest drains on the business model is the cost of CPE. The reason is that infrastructure (network investment) scales very well. That means that the more subscribers you get, the cheaper the cost of the network is per subscriber. Adding subs does not immediately increase infrastructure costs. In contrast, CPE costs scale miserably. In fact, for each additional customer, you must provide one additional CPE installation. As a technology gets more popular, you have to spend more on the CPE, installation, and support side which scales in a linear fashion. I've been in countless meetings where the bigwigs at my service provider employers cry a river at the costs of subsidizing and starting off customers. They often take a big loss on new customers in the hope of gaining profitability from that customer 1-2 years down the road. If you don't think this CPE and install cost eats into the available capital to improve a network, then I don't know what to tell YOU.

Lastly, Rip_Sketchy, sure you got my dander up. But I assure you I bring far more to an argument than you've ever brought anywhere, including the day you moved house. For starters, I can write in english (a criticism I'll retract if you are not a native english speaker...which would be my guess). I'd like to think that I only wrote this reply because I'm trying to teach some of the other DSLReports readers some useful info, but the sad reality is I just have a hard time suffering fools. Bad on me. As a consultant in these industries, my "straw man" opinions are the sort for which customers are willing to pay US$220/hour. What's the market rate for your opinions?

RipTides
join:2002-05-25
Dallas, GA

1 edit

RipTides

Member

Re: Protect YOUR network, ISPs

Jesus dude, what is your point ?

You say
said by Drekk:
ISPs have been giving away free cable modems, DSL modems, and 2Wire home modems for years when users sign up for their service.
trying to imply that all the hardware is Free to the consumer, that the ISPs pay for it all. When my point is it is not actually Free to the consumer. And you come at me with:
said by Drekk:
Almost nothing in the world is "free" without strings. Companies, for certain, will never give away something for free..
Which seems to be exactly what i was saying. All your doing now is making my point for me, and everything else you blather about is a Cost of Doing Business for them, it always has been, and these costs are passed down to consumers. They have been factored into the prices of the services.

Hell, my only 2 main points were that Both ISP's and PC manufacters should take steps to help educate consumers about the internet. And that what ISP's sell to you with their service were not blatantly FREE. Most american ISPs have just recently started moving to Instant $$$ off on their orders, but that has not always been the case.
said by drekk:
In an almost Clinton-esque way, you argued the definition of the word "free", and did so with all the steadfastness of a George W. Bush.
Hey guy, chill, you are having election issues, or something.
said by drekk:
Lastly, Rip_Sketchy... But I assure you I bring far more to an argument than you've ever brought anywhere, including the day you moved house. For starters, I can write in english
Yawn!
Now i see the point of your posts.
Troll.

jwsmiths4
Part Man, Part Mac
Premium Member
join:2003-10-25
Savannah, GA

jwsmiths4

Premium Member

Not Quite There Guys...

Down here in "Good Ole Georgia" one of my friend's paid to have Bell South hook up their DSL and when the installer arrived my friend asked him if he would hook up his router as well, the installer told him that wasn't part of the installation so my friend asked how much extra it would cost. The installer told him that he did not know how to setup his linksys router and that he would have to reschedule the installation and have another tech who did know how to setup them up come out to do it. Notice he did not say "Not certified" or "not allowed" he told my friend he "didn't know how." Now if you are expecting ISP's to start providing routers/Wireless APs I think they should first train all of their technicians how to use something so basic first.

tomkb
Premium Member
join:2000-11-15
Tampa, FL

1 recommendation

tomkb

Premium Member

Routers!

(From the Old Navy department store commercials)

Routers? Routers?

I can hardly wait! Why didn't I think of that? They are so.....routable..... I'm going to pass out. You mean you can have more than one device now? Thank you BT, Thank you.

Let's study.
np99xx
join:2004-06-30

np99xx

Member

UK Modems

The UK supplied DSL modems, as far as I am aware - correct me if I am wrong, only have a USB connection this inturn makes it slighty more difficult to setup a network.

Norman

Glaice
Brutal Video Vault
Premium Member
join:2002-10-01
North Babylon, NY

Glaice

Premium Member

Re: UK Modems

Well that's their manufacturer's fault!

Ronnie_USA
Premium Member
join:2003-10-09
Morehead, KY

1 edit

Ronnie_USA

Premium Member

Deleted

deleted

linicx
Caveat Emptor
Premium Member
join:2002-12-03
United State

linicx

Premium Member

They are all the same

I don't get it. Most ISPs seem to to wear the same blinders: "We only support Microsoft and our co-branded PPPoE/e-mail/router/modem/software." Why? The answer was about what I expected. "The others don't work with our system," said the clueless first level tech support. Neither did Eudora, Opera or Netscape according to him.

I was almost sucked into the lies before I ordered my NAT Firewall router. My router tech support told a different story. "They don't have to support our brand, If your ISP has a DNS that is active, we will support them." And they do.

When hackers started pinging my system fifteen minutes after I went on line with Cox Cable, I added the router; it doesn't respond to pings or other queries. When the E-Carthage WISP boy genius installed their optimized for XP 'WinPPPoE' over my W98 and hosed my machine, the router picked up the slack by handling all internet connections. I refuse to ever install PPPoE on any machine as long as I own a router. When SBC said I had to install their bloated software I laughed and hung up. Ten minutes later I was on line setting up my mail accounts (SBC-Yahoo) through Pegasus mail client on the PC, and then did the same through the native mail client on my PPC. The closest I get to Yahoo these days is to empty bulk mail every 100 days and delete Yahoo messages.

SBC and router has been the best broadband experience I ever had. The only way I can imagine it being better is if it was faster -- and that has as much to do with with throttling speeds as it does the router.

woody7
Premium Member
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA

woody7

Premium Member

Hmmmmmmmmmm....

Just plain "tarded"

spie340
Hmm
Premium Member
join:2004-01-06
Boise, ID

spie340

Premium Member

can be done

so they have a usb connection. use linux and set a box up as a router. sure a little bit tougher to do so but once it is done you are good to go with very little trouble. and I think on top of that don't they make convertors? or is it the only from cat5 to usb and not usb to cat5?

TZi
join:2001-07-05
Miami Beach, FL

1 edit

TZi

Member

Typical of a monopoly...

This is indeed ridiculous, but I can remember a time not so long ago when cable companies would asses you an "extra outlet charge" for using a splitter! I think that any company that exists in a monopoly (or in an oligopoly for that matter), even a regulated one, is rarely forced to innnovate in the marketplace; therefore they can continue to exist, even thrive, though they would appear ignorant, unresponsive and otherwise unconcerned to us.

Keep in mind, though, this mindset is coming from a company that still charges you 5p/minute to call your neighbour. I think this comes more from the european interpretation of capitilism though. I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but my economist friend is always going on about how european capitilism is slightly "broken". E.G. you buy the french fries then they still want to charge you for a packet of ketchup even though the time and infratstructure it takes to charge you for said packet costs more than the money recovered...

inteller
Sociopaths always win.
join:2003-12-08
Tulsa, OK

inteller

Member

I think the real news here is....

....does BT know they are being made fun of on DSLR?
np99xx
join:2004-06-30

np99xx

Member

Re: I think the real news here is....

The one thing BT has goign for them is opening up the whole network to allow everyone to attempt to get some type of DSL.
My Parents could not get DSL as they where too far away, well over the verizon 18k limit. Now they can get 512 down and 256 up. Now if we can get Verizon to do that and get some cheap 15 dollar broadband access for surfing.

sorne guy
@66.84.x.x

sorne guy

Anon

p2p poison

it is often hard for average users to configure p2p programs with routers

therefore, if BT has issues with p2p users, and the excess bandwidth they use, give them all routers, then refuse to support those applications when the customers call

pure genius

pete4535
@pipex.com

pete4535

Anon

Re: p2p poison

the reason they havent released routers before hand is because they have such a large customer base most of which have no idea what a router is let alone how to configure one and most people that arent already connected (ie all the non- IT people) have no interest in doing all the configuration / setup and would rather have a simple modem and are happy with being connected on one pc.