 
PTS
Premium
join:2001-12-13
Charlotte, NC
clubs: | "Highly Skilled", You Say... "...turning us into an unpaid source of highly skilled labor...
Well, two out of three ain't bad...;) | |
| 
odog
Cable Centric Vendor Biased
Premium,VIP
join:2001-08-05
Norcross, GA
clubs: | Hmm how much money? haha...
maybe they should pay us to do it!
$5 everytime i have to flash my routers firmware.
--
disclaimer: my opinions are my own, my employer is not responsible. | |
|  | snkeyes3
join:2003-09-23
| Re: Hmm how much money? Also include:
$6 every time I need to patch my OS.
$8 every time I need to update my virusscan manually, to get the software updates that aren't automatically installed.
$12 every time I need to update either DirectX, my video or my sound drivers. | |
| | 
Mark37345
@168.143.x.x
1 edit | Not to mention they should also pay the guys who improve the software. Expecially on the WRT54G. | |
| 
DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey | Dont buy. Netgear or Linksys There are still a few good companies, with stateside helpdesks.
--
Products unsupported in the USA, so far. Dell PC and Netgear | |
| | 
bobdog
Kiss me I'm shtfaced
Premium
join:2003-03-09
Lake In The Hills, IL
| Re: Dont buy. Netgear or Linksys said by DaveNJ  :
There are still a few good companies, with stateside helpdesks.
They are becoming the minority. It amazes me how many large companies are outsourcing their helpdesks. The position that I hold, will be migrating to India in the next couple of months. I decided not to relocate and get paid $5000 a year so it is to the unemployment line I go.
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Tattooed, Pierced, Flower Hat Wearing Freak AIM = BBR Bobdog | |
| | | bigbearr
join:2003-11-16
Saint Louis, MO | Re: Dont buy. Netgear or Linksys Actually you cant relocate. India has stated, to get a job in India, you have to be an "Native" | |
| | | | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
 ·Comcast
| Re: Dont buy. Netgear or Linksys said by bigbearr :
Actually you cant relocate. India has stated, to get a job in India, you have to be an "Native"
But yet if the US does this it's racism. This country has become to obsessed with being politically correct.
--
This package does not contain a winner... | |
| | | | | Desdinova
join:2003-01-26
Gaithersburg, MD | Re: Dont buy. Netgear or Linksys Screw it. Let's all go over to India and take all the convenience store jobs. THAT'LL show 'em. | |
| | | 
sleuth
Premium
join:2001-08-30
Evanston, IL
 ·AT&T DSL Service
| Relocating to India... not surprising since everytime I call tech support for a company it's always an Indian person! They must be the most incoherent people I have ever spoken to. I tell them my problem and they don't listen. Not to mention I can't understand a freaking word they're saying.
--
War does not determine who is right, war determines who is left. | |
| | | | Dodge
Premium
join:2002-11-27
clubs:
| Re: Dont buy. Netgear or Linksys This is a conversation that I had with DELL support:
-Me: Hi I would like to find out what form factor my PSU is, whether its standard or DELL proprietary
-Tech (Extremely heavy indian accent, almost incoherent): What system do you have.
-Me: Dimension 4550
-Tech: Hold on while I pull up information
-Tech: What system is it?
-Me: Dimension 4550
-Tech: Please hold.
-Tech: What system was that again.
-Me: What does it say on your screen
-Tech: Dimension 4550
-Me: There you go.
-Tech: So what was your question?
-Me: I would like to find out what form factor my PSU is, whether its standard or DELL proprietary
-Tech: Its a 250 watt power supply
-Me: I know that, but what form factor is it, AT, ATX, DELL proprietary?
-Tech: Its a 250 watt power supply
-Me: Do you even know what a PSU is?
-Tech: I am dell certified technician.
-Me: Thats great, but what does a PSU do in the computer.
-Tech: Its a 250 watt power supply.
ARRRRGH, what is wrong with these people?!?!? | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | 
Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
| Dilbert I once read a Dilbert comic about the company made their support so bad it forced the customers to band together and create their own support groups. Reminds me of a site I post on (;)  )
--
Girls don't really like me That's why I hate myself Maybe it's cause of the way I look Or maybe it's something else »maxolasersquad.com | |
| | 
sabotconsult
join:2002-10-18
Palmetto, GA
| Re: Dilbert I need to do some port forwarding on my westell modem, so I checked out the westell site, which said to speak to the ISP, which I did, and they sent me here....Now the support wasn't outsourced to india, no it was outsourced to this web site...how about that for cheap labor.. | |
|
karog
@cable.earthlin
| Stealth upgrades My Toshiba PCX1100U cable modem started acting erratically a few weeks ago. After some digging, I discovered that the firmware had been upgraded WITHOUT MY KNOWLEDGE sometime in the last 2 months, presumably 2 weeks ago. I bought a new Motorola 5100 and it works fine in its place.
Comcast tier 1 told me they don't upgrade firmware, only the OEM does. Hogwash! They double checked and still said the same. Idiots!
While emailing Toshiba about this, they offered an RMA and it is en route to me now; should get it Monday. Fortunately I can still return the Motorola.
I hate them doing stealth upgrade and breaking things. | |
| 
Varangian
join:2002-12-08
Collinsville, IL | Im about to connect the NIC What temperature do i set the oxy-acetylene? | |
| 
clickwir
join:2001-06-21
Dickson City, PA
| genious! That's simply amazing.... so basically, if YOU buy a product that requires some kind of maintance... THEY have to do it, not you.
Well I'll have to tell Acura about this next time my fuel gauge indicates that it's low... or even better they should be installing a device to send someone out to fill up my gas tank while I'm at work! I shouldn't even have to take it to them.
Who's the moron who came up with this "effectively outsourcing repair work to customers"? Some products require you do actually DO something with them. Idiot. | |
| | averagedude
join:2002-01-30
Mesa, AZ
·Cox HSI
2 edits | Re: genious! If flashing hardware was as easy as putting gas in a car I don't think it would be a problem.
The thing is that it is even odds if the flash will work.
If it was such an easy thing, then why does everyone in my office and family turn to me to do upgrades? The reason is that it isn't that easy. First you have to know where to find the flash upgrade. Second, you have hold your breath, hold your hands together, and do the "Please, oh please work" dance.
Way too many things can go wrong. Ever tried to recover from a bad flash? Heck, it is easier just to return the thing or buy a new one. I know friends who would rather just put up with the original ROM than take the chance on a flash up grade. Others I know, don't even know that hardware can be upgraded/flashed. In the end, people just want a piece of hardware to work, even if it compromises their security.
If I got paid every time someone ask for help I would be rich. But, that is not the point. Manufactures are releasing hardware that should be labeled "BETA". Consumers should expect that hardware has been reasonably tested before letting loose to the masses. Most people expect what they have purchased to work. I consider products that don't work as advertised "false advertising". I boycott such products, and so should others. After all it is your hard earned money. | |
| | |
clickwir
join:2001-06-21
Dickson City, PA
| Re: genious! Well I was just using the gas as an example. There are plenty of other things that need to be maintained. Cars are one of them. I was just trying to make a connection between flashing firmware as being maintance.
I guess it would be more accurate anaology to changing oil. It's not hard, if you've done it once, most anyone can pick up on it. It's extremely easy, a lot can go wrong and most people usually opt for someone else to do it. But that doesn't mean it's hard and they can't do it, they are just scared. I guess in a way it could be associated to, maybe, changing an air filter in a car or even a central air system. | |
| | | 
rchandra
Stargate S G-1 And Atlantis Fan
Premium
join:2000-11-09
14225-2105
clubs:
| said by averagedude:
Ever tried to recover from a bad flash?
sure. It went rather well. Some vendors "get it," and put ROMs in their products that have all the smarts needed to set up some base configuration and accept another load attempt. A USR Courier does this; unfortunately, few if any others do. I remember a Linksys doing this, and I only needed one more attempt. Some higher-end servers have two flash ROMs (again, they're not executed immediately on reset/powerup), and the base ROM will only execute the flashed code if it passes some validity test...and will use basically the last known good ROM. It seems it wouldn't be really, really that much more expensive to put one more flashROM in these routers and some chip select circuitry, but when they've become such commodities, it's a bit of proverbially sticking out one's neck to make it more expensive while having the advantage not so tangible.
More to the article quote: OK, so you're tired of being your own "tech support," so you'd rather go offline for however long it takes to disconnect your router, pack it up, ship it, have the factory update/upgrade it, ship it back to you, and reinstall it? I don't know about y'all, but I'd rather take it offline for like 5 minutes or less and do it myself.
The other option is to pay for a visit by them, so instead of paying $100 for the router, I can pay $400. No thanks; again, I'll flash it myself. Perhaps one more option would be to have the factory ship a replacement, and send back my original. OK, I'd estimate what they'd have to charge is more like $250; still too much.
--
English is a difficult enough language to interpret correctly when its rules are followed, let alone when a writer chooses not to follow those rules. Blog is here | |
| | | | averagedude
join:2002-01-30
Mesa, AZ | Re: genious! Would not need so many "Flashes" if the product was properly test BEFORE being let out in the wild.
Just my 2 cents (no flames) | |
| | | | | 
AmeritecTech
Change we can believe in, 1922
Premium
join:2002-09-06
Houston, TX
| Re: genious! said by averagedude :
Would not need so many "Flashes" if the product was properly test BEFORE being let out in the wild.
Just my 2 cents (no flames)
Firmware often adds additional functionality as it comes into existence. As an example, some D-Link routers can be upgraded to faster wireless speeds with a firmware update. Of course, if you're looking for a quality router that has been tested extensively before release, perhaps you should think about something other than Linksys, hm?
--
Independent thinkers tend to ALWAYS have someone not agreeing with them. It's the non-thinkers that always come in legions." -John Callari | |
| |
AmeritecTech
Change we can believe in, 1922
Premium
join:2002-09-06
Houston, TX
| said by clickwir :
Who's the moron who came up with this "effectively outsourcing repair work to customers"? Some products require you do actually DO something with them. Idiot.
No joke. I guess Linux is also "outsourcing their work" to users, because you have to install the RPM's. Ridiculous.
--
Independent thinkers tend to ALWAYS have someone not agreeing with them. It's the non-thinkers that always come in legions." -John Callari | |
| | | | | 
Rally1
join:2000-06-12
Irvine, CA | it's genius, "idiot". | |
| | 
alanhdsl
Premium
join:1999-10-09
Phoenix, AZ
·Qwest.net
| These updates aren't really maintenance, though. They're more like technical service bulletins or recalls. I'd be pretty unhappy if I got a letter from GM in the mail saying a defect in my master cylinder could make the brakes stop working, enclosed is a new one, you install it. | |
| | |
AmeritecTech
Change we can believe in, 1922
Premium
join:2002-09-06
Houston, TX
| Re: genious! said by alanhdsl :
These updates aren't really maintenance, though. They're more like technical service bulletins or recalls. I'd be pretty unhappy if I got a letter from GM in the mail saying a defect in my master cylinder could make the brakes stop working, enclosed is a new one, you install it.
Yes, when GM releases a recall you can take it to your local GM service station for free install. Now, how much extra would you be willing to pay for that Linksys router that you don't understand how to patch? Keep in mind that they'll have to make Linksys service stations across the country for people like you who are confused by firmware updates. How much would you be willing to pay?
--
Independent thinkers tend to ALWAYS have someone not agreeing with them. It's the non-thinkers that always come in legions." -John Callari | |
| 
gruggni
Oxygen Gets You High
join:2003-07-28
Corpus Christi, TX
| technology in a capitist world Money is the main driving force now. I'm my own tech support, who does tech support turn to when they have problems? College and university classes have been following this method for many years.
We pay large sums of money to go to a good school and you hope to get taught but, you end up reading the books and teaching yourself because the teachers don't teach. Your lucky if you get a prof or phd that can actually teach. If you really want the piece of paper or degree, stay in school and shell out the cash. If you want to learn and save money, buy the books and continue to teach yourself without wasting your money on a system of education.
It's not surprising that tech support uses "the customer" as the space monkey.
--
"I'm sick of following my dreams man; I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with them later."- Mitch Hedberg | |
| | 
LegoPower77
Abecedarian
Premium
join:2002-08-03
Arlington, VA
| Re: technology in a capitist world I agree wholeheartedly. "The system" has been gamed quite successfully by the education establishment to require that piece of paper in order to get a foot in the door. Sure you can go your own way, but there is supposed to be more stability by getting a degree. Unfortunately, since education has been so thoroughly ruined by the [insert your bugaboo here] it is really no better than a high school degree of as late as 50 years ago so the employer still has to sift through all the idiots. And every campaign year the Pols all say how they're going to try to increase college attendance—one wonders why the price is so high: the demand is artificially inflated! (Same thing with home ownership, btw.)
But back to another part of the thread, the outsourcing of labor. For the life of me I don't understand why people are upset about this. For one thing India has a billion people so they have what economists call comparative advantage in labor resources. More of a supply of workers means a cheaper price. Second, we in America want to be able to sue at the drop of a hat and we have [insert bugaboo here] placing all sorts of onerous regulations on industry (for good or for ill). Really, what do we expect? And what is John Kerry gonna do about it?
That's a great tag, btw, Hedburg is probably the funniest guy out there right now 
--
"Lunches don't get free just because you don't see the prices on the menu. And economists don't get popular by reminding people of that." --Thomas Sowell | |
| | | 
RR Conductor
RailRoadDude
Premium
join:2002-04-02
Redwood Valley, CA | Re: technology in a capitist world I see someone hasn't lost their job to a cheap worker in Asia. | |
| | | |
LegoPower77
Abecedarian
Premium
join:2002-08-03
Arlington, VA
| Re: technology in a capitist world You're right, I haven't yet lost a job because I graduated last may and I haven't been able to find a job. I'm doing stuff now that I could have done with an 8th grade edjamakashun (fortunately some of my investments have done well).
But I'm trying to look at this on a level larger than myself. First of all, my round-about-point is that we have many forces here that make us uncompetitive, viz. tort laws, regulations, employment laws, our corporate taxes are the highest in the industrialized world (40%! can you imagine risking all but only getting to keep a little over ½ of what you make?) , not to mention a weak education system that scores relatively low compared to other countries.
Secondly, what are we supposed to do? The comparative advantage of Asian countries in labor resources is immense. Jobs go over there because consumers want cheap prices; are we to make a law saying that people can't pay the cheapest price for the goods or services they buy? Well, we may try. But there are things we can do to become more competitive (addressing my list from last paragraph) and we do have advantage in terms of technology, so we are not in the worst situation. All to often people get it bass ackwards when they get angry at the eeevil corporation; we really should be addressing the root causes of such things.
Here's an interesting article that is right on point of this whole thread.
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"Lunches don't get free just because you don't see the prices on the menu. And economists don't get popular by reminding people of that." --Thomas Sowell | |
| 
C0deZer0
Oc'D To Rhythm And Police
Premium
join:2001-10-03
Davenport, FL | If I could just get.... If I could just get $5 for everytime I've had to deal with a recurring problem, I would be making more than enough to pay for a lot of crap, honestly. | |
|
AmeritecTech
Change we can believe in, 1922
Premium
join:2002-09-06
Houston, TX
| Let Me Get This Straight.... People buy one of the cheapest routers available and get indignant at having to upgrade firmware? You picked it out of the bargain bin for a reason.
--
Independent thinkers tend to ALWAYS have someone not agreeing with them. It's the non-thinkers that always come in legions." -John Callari | |
| |
See 8 replies to this post | |
53059959
Temp banned from BBR more then anyone
join:2002-10-02
PwnZone
| whats teh big fuss I have hardly any problems with updating. if I need to update windows or antivirus, I simply update it, or-if I need to update my firmware (I use mostly netgear networking components) I do so, and it takes seconds. I dunno what all you noobs are complaining about. if you can reach dslreports.com you can solve your computer problems. | |
| 
viperpa33s
Why Me?
Premium
join:2002-12-20
Bradenton, FL
·Bright House
| We must look out for each other Allot of times it's us, the computer users who are the tech support for other fellow computers users. I don't call tech support anymore, I just go to tech forums and get help from my fellow computer users. About 95% of the time I can get my computer problem fixed from a tech forum.
What I have also been reading is allot more people, your average joe, are starting to learn and build there own computers. A few years ago you would not see something like that. People would just buy the computer off the shelf, now people are getting more hands on.
The computer companies can change and the computer user can change along with it. We need to let companies like HP know that we don't need there stinkin computers and there stinkin tech support. We will just build our own and get help from out fellow constituents. Maybe then people here at home can be paid again for the help they provide.
You honestly think that if Carly Fiorina or Mike Dell have a problem with there computer, that they will call India for help? I really don't think so. They would have us use something that they themselves wouldn't use.
Carly Fiorina says that jobs is not a guarantee, so I guess that means buying a product from HP is not a guarantee either. She gets her huge salary and perks from people buying computers. What would happen if that all suddenly came to an end and people stopped buying computers from HP?
Companies like HP is giving new meaning to the phrase, "you get what you pay for". | |
| | 
GorbGuy
join:2003-09-23
Middleville, MI
clubs:
1 edit | Re: We must look out for each other said by viperpa33s :
Companies like HP is giving new meaning to the phrase, "you get what you pay for".
Hmm, I purchased the 9x5 next day support plan with my newest HP laptop. If something breaks, they are in my office the next day to repair it. Wasn't expensive, considering it's a 3 year warranty on a laptop that travels the US. Same for the HP servers and SAN I maintain. 6 hour call to repair. Disk, OS, memory, CPU, riser card, fiber switch, whatever goes bad and I can't fix it, they are there and have it back good as gold in 6 hours or less. Guess some do "get what they pay for."  | |
| 
Cheetah9
join:2001-01-07
Bethel Park, PA
| Sooo? What's New! I turned into an unpaid source of highly skilled labor many years ago, in response to my personal experiences with most tech support being either unreachable or highly unskilled minimum wage flunkies!
Tech Support these days is probably last on my list when scooping out new hardware and software.
--
If everything is under control your not going fast enough!! | |
|
Zulummar
@comcast.net
| yeah well, there's 2sides to every coin... 1st, it should be more like the companies are turning customer into an unpaid source of highly UNSKILLED labor.
As someone who's been doing tech support for almost 10 years now, I'm utterly appalled that the human race has managed to live this long with the general intelligence level displayed by 90% of the population. People buy things, refuse to RTFM, refuse to take any time at all to familiarize themselves with the product they bought or learn how to use it and care for it properly, and then scream and bitch when it doesn't work right, over 75% of the time due to their own screw up.
2nd, there's a very good point about products being tested properly before being released. I honestly believe that a lot of products fall short of this mark, but not anywhere near as short as some people want to make it seem.
3rd, on the other hand to the previous point, there's no possible way to test for everything, or even half of everything. There are literally billions of different sets of circumstances that could affect a product. Not to mention exploits (in the case of exploitable hardware such as routers) are constantly being discovered by people. Firmware updates (and fairly regular ones if you include fixes for new exploits, additions of new features, changed or additions based on feedback of customers, etc.) are completely and totally inevitable. | |
|
viperpa33s
Why Me?
Premium
join:2002-12-20
Bradenton, FL
·Bright House
| Re: Re: We must look out for each other said by GorbGuy:
Hmm, I purchased the 9x5 next day support plan with my newest HP laptop. If something breaks, they are in my office the next day to repair it. Wasn't expensive, considering it's a 3 year warranty on a laptop that travels the US. Same for the HP servers and SAN I maintain. 6 hour call to repair. Disk, OS, memory, CPU, riser card, fiber switch, whatever goes bad and I can't fix it, they are there and have it back good as gold in 6 hours or less. Guess some do "get what they pay for."
Since you say an office, is this support plan for a business or a company you work for? The computer companies treat businesses differently than consumers. The computer companies make BIG money to support businesses. If a business calls for support, a tech person is called out immediately. There is no dumbing down the business. There is no asking, do you really have a problem? A problem is called in and the tech person is sent, no questions asked.
IBM loves the company I work for. The company I work for bought paid support for 50 servers using Microsoft software, 4 UNIX machines, AS/400 machine, and a mainframe CPU. The company also pays support to Hitachi for a mainframe hard drive and tape drives. In fact the Hitachi calls home if there is a problem and the repair person is dispatched immediately. We pay a few hundred thousand dollars in support every year, so of course we are going to get supreme service compared to your average consumer.
Like I was saying in my previous post, the computer companies like HP and Dell provide free support and they are making it low priority. Since it is free, they aren't providing the same support as someone who pays for support. The free support is like a perk for buying the computer. So that's why they are sending the support overseas. Dell is the exception cause they sent there business support overseas but quickly sent it back. Dell thought they could get away with it but when your dealing with a business who spends thousand of dollars in support, Dell thought wrong.
So you are absolutely right, you will get supreme service cause you paid for it but your average consumer who gets free support will not. | |
| |
GorbGuy
join:2003-09-23
Middleville, MI
clubs:
| Re: Re: We must look out for each other said by viperpa33s :
So you are absolutely right, you will get supreme service cause you paid for it but your average consumer who gets free support will not.
When you buy a computer, from HP at least (I have never been a fan of Dell,) you are paying for the computer and the software installed. How can any company make money from a $500 computer that they have to continue to support for 3 to 4 years? Answer is, they can't. This is why they charge $100 or so for 3 year 9x5 [keyword]extended technical[/keyword] support. My argument with you, was why bash companies for sending free support overseas? And why should the "average customer" get the same support treatment as someone who is willing to fork out a little extra money for support? Again, here I'm not referring to Dell, because in my eyes, Dell is a consumer peecee manufacturer, not a business computing supplier.
Also, the same 3 year, 9x5, next day support that I got with my business laptop is available to the retail desktop and laptop market, and works exactly the same as the business market. Of course, you aren't going to get the Proliant Server 6 Hour Call to Repair support on a Presario desktop, but they do have up to 4 different Extended Support Plans for these retail products, including one that even covers "accidental" damage. i.e. "liquid spills, drops, falls, collisions, electrical surges, or any other accidental damage."
I think some consumers should simply be doing their homework and think a little more long-term with some technology related purchases, before having the right to complain about Abu-Dhabi that answered the phone when calling HP about a virus that is so obviously their fault. Kinda like buying a new car and passing on the full coverage auto-insurance and going with PL/PD because it's cheaper and you won't need it anyways. (Also excuse the rambling, it's getting late  ) | |
|
Varangian
join:2002-12-08
Collinsville, IL |  Some assembly required
But when do i use the torch?! | |
| dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
·Verizon Online DSL
 ·Verizon FIOS
| The alternatives, of course, were these ... Taking a devils-advocate position: if you couldn't trivially update the firmware yourself, then either:
1. You'd have to shlep the thing back to the manufacturer, and pay for shipping at least (and maybe for the repair, if out of warranty), or
2. The device would stay broken until you replaced it.
----
Of course, I agree that better testing prior to release is desirable. But let's not confuse 'quality sucks to start with' and 'I am expected to fix it myself'. | |
| | | |
|
|
Nail on the head award
Re: Dont buy. Netgear or Linksys
