Captives of Competition'Forced bundling' getting closer look ( old news - 11:14AM Tuesday Jan 13 2004) tags: dsl · competitionAs we've discussed in the past, the bells have found themselves under fire for terminating DSL subscriptions of customers who switch their local voice carrier to competitors- often claiming that continuing to offer service is technologically impossible, or illegal. Customers often aren't properly informed that they'll lose service for making a switch, leading many states to investigate 'forced bundling'. We've explored some of the headaches surrounding this tactic in previous stories; including one BellSouth customer who switched to a local competitors, lost her Earthlink DSL service (provided via BellSouth), and then had to jump through hoops to get reconnected. When she switched her local service back to BellSouth, the user was connected to BellSouth DSL instead of Earthlink, initially facing a $200 reconnection fee in the process. Stories like that have led Georgia, Kentucky and Louisiana regulators to order BellSouth to continue providing DSL service to customers who switch local service. As this Charlotte Business Journal article explores, the North Carolina Utilities Commission is now being pressured by bell competitors to follow suit.
Related:- Verizon Again Threatens Massachusetts Investment
- Frontier Adds 13,800 DSL Customers
- Canadian Regulators Send Another Love Letter To Bell Canada
- Sonic.net Drops Prices On ADSL2+ Service
- Frontier To Inherit Some Very Shoddy Verizon Copper
- Verizon CEO Admits Landlines Are Dead
- What Network Neutrality Is REALLY About
- FCC To Investigate Special Access Pricing
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TexasGuy
49 States And Texas
Premium
join:2002-12-02
Houston, TX
1 edit | I got cable That is why I got cable. You can have any phone company or even none, use your cell phone... Very convinient. | |
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rit56
join:2000-12-01
New York, NY
| Re: I got cable sir with all due respect earthlink fired just about all their American employees and is outsourcing their jobs to India. this is by no means an attack on you but rather an attack on earthlink. contrary to common belief most New Yorkers are very patriotic. I am a little disturbed actually about Houston getting Andy Pettit and Roger Clemons but this might not be the right venue for that. | |
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TexasGuy
49 States And Texas
Premium
join:2002-12-02
Houston, TX
| Re: I got cable said by rit56  :
sir with all due respect earthlink fired just about all their American employees and is outsourcing their jobs to India.
Will that affect my speed or my bill? No? Then I don't care. I didn't find old Earthlink support all that helpful either.
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Who drank has died, who drinks will die. Is he immortal who is sober? | |
| | | | Trivista
join:2003-11-11
Longview, TX | Re: I got cable And when those people that were laid off go on goverment assistance who will pay? That's right, you because you still have a job.
If a large portion of good paying jobs leave this country who will buy what these companies are selling? | |
| | radougherty
join:1999-07-23
Austin, TX
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| said by TexasGuy :
That is why I got cable. You can have any phone company or even none, use your cell phone... Very convinient.
Yep, I dumped SBC's DSL, got Comcast cable, the Vonage for VOIP so I have no more SBC service. Works great and I save money. | |
| | vic102482
Premium
join:2002-04-30
Upper Marlboro, MD
| said by TexasGuy :
That is why I got cable. You can have any phone company or even none, use your cell phone... Very convinient.
Yeah and you can have any television provider$ that you want!!
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I tie a rope around my penis and jump from a tree, don't you wanna grow up to be just like me!!!! | |
| | | radougherty
join:1999-07-23
Austin, TX
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: I got cable said by vic102482 :
said by TexasGuy :
That is why I got cable. You can have any phone company or even none, use your cell phone... Very convinient.
Yeah and you can have any television provider$ that you want!!
I'm actually getting more channels then I had with Dish and I'm paying less with Comcast. Our Comcast system had a rebuild last month and they've got many more channels then Dish offers including local HD channels and I don't have to putz around with an antenna to get them. | |
| | | | vic102482
Premium
join:2002-04-30
Upper Marlboro, MD
| Re: I got cable said by radougherty :
said by vic102482 :
said by TexasGuy :
That is why I got cable. You can have any phone company or even none, use your cell phone... Very convinient.
Yeah and you can have any television provider$ that you want!!
I'm actually getting more channels then I had with Dish and I'm paying less with Comcast. Our Comcast system had a rebuild last month and they've got many more channels then Dish offers including local HD channels and I don't have to putz around with an antenna to get them.
Not this comcast over here:). You live in IL where the munis were starting an uprising against comcrap, thats probably why you get those deals.
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I tie a rope around my penis and jump from a tree, don't you wanna grow up to be just like me!!!! | |
| | | | | radougherty
join:1999-07-23
Austin, TX
·RoadRunner Cable
1 edit | Re: I got cable Nope, it's just because Comcast upgrade the system that's been owned by Cox, Jones Intercabe, TCI, AT&T and finally Comcast. None of the other owners had done squat with it for decades except to take money in. We picked up 92 channels, not including additioanl PPV's, subscription sports and a spanish language package, along with broadband internet. Yea, it's $86.99, which includes one SD digital box but here's my channel list: »www.comcast.com/Support/viewCLU.···ID=82880 | |
| | | | | | vic102482
Premium
join:2002-04-30
Upper Marlboro, MD
| Re: I got cable said by radougherty :
Nope, it's just because Comcast upgrade the system that's been owned by Cox, Jones Intercabe, TCI, AT&T and finally Comcast. None of the other owners had done squat with it for decades except to take money in. We picked up 92 channels, not including additioanl PPV's, subscription sports and a spanish language package, along with broadband internet. Yea, it's $86.99, which includes one SD digital box but here's my channel list: »www.comcast.com/Support/viewCLU.···ID=82880
I had comcast digital. It doesnt compare to the dish. I guess its where you live.
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I tie a rope around my penis and jump from a tree, don't you wanna grow up to be just like me!!!! | |
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zabes63
join:2003-04-05
Batavia, IL
| [QUOTE= vic102482 Not this comcast over here:). You live in IL where the munis were starting an uprising against comcrap, thats probably why you get those deals.
[/QUOTE]
If you're referring to the Tri-Cities, I can tell you that Mundelien (sp?) is close to us only in the global sense. | |
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Rexter
YeeHaw
join:2002-11-17
cloud 9 | lol, yea, try changing your cable company. See what happens. | |
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GNXPower
Got Boost?
Premium
join:2003-12-18
Huntington Beach, CA | Cable is no different...at least with Comcast. While no forced bundling they do have giant non-bundling penalties to the tune of 30% for those not wanting CATV. | |
| | Trivista
join:2003-11-11
Longview, TX | I do not know about elsewhere but in Cox HSI (1024/128) land we have to get basic (14-15/month cable) before we can get internet access.
Not much different than the telcos. | |
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rit56
join:2000-12-01
New York, NY | corporate law Corporations determine the laws, lobbyists write them and along with a pile of cash they submit them to congressmen and senators for the rubber stamp approval to legally screw the American public. revolution anyone? | |
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bokamba
Chengdu Rocks
Premium
join:2002-04-05
Falls Church, VA | Re: corporate law No, thank you. | |
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Varangian
join:2002-12-08
Collinsville, IL | If you're Commander Zero, sign me up. | |
| | Beeper
Part Of The Problem
join:2001-09-27
Dayton, OH
clubs:
| said by rit56 :
revolution anyone?
Yes, I'll take one.
How about we revolt against taxing success?
How about we revolt against a social pension scheme that has a negative rate of return on investment?
How about we revolt against bribing the richest demographic group on the planet with free medicine?
How about we revolt against a cabal of nitwits who pretend to educate American inner city children?
How about we revolt against a system who doesn't want its subjects to exercise basic state and Federal constitutional rights to keep and bear arms?
How about we revolt against a system in which 40% of its ratepayers pay no income tax?
I'm all for revolution.
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Guaranteed Fear and Loathing. Abandon all hope. Prepare for the Weirdness. Get familiar with Cannibalism. | |
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Varangian
join:2002-12-08
Collinsville, IL | Re: corporate law Tally Ho!
We'll knock off that stuff too. | |
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sabersaw
Premium
join:2001-08-21
Dayton, OH
| said by rit56 :
Corporations determine the laws, lobbyists write them and along with a pile of cash they submit them to congressmen and senators for the rubber stamp approval to legally screw the American public. revolution anyone?
almost there. | |
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dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA | Yet another reason to get cable internet! I have Comcast cable internet service, key word is "cable". They couldn't care less what phone carrier I use(and I get higher speed than most DSL services in the $42 - $43 price range). | |
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insomniac
Oh Yeah
Premium
join:2002-09-22
Naperville, IL
clubs:
 ·AT&T Midwest
| Yet another cable vs. DSL argument Yes, but you're sharing bandwidth with your neighbors, it's less stable, running servers is a TOS violation, blah blah blah. I can see this argument coming from a mile away now.
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If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something. | |
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Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
 ·Site5.com
·AT&T Midwest
·Comcast
| Re: Yet another cable vs. DSL argument said by insomniac :
Yes, but you're sharing bandwidth with your neighbors, it's less stable, running servers is a TOS violation, blah blah blah. I can see this argument coming from a mile away now.
Gotta love the misinformed. 
Hate to break this to you but DSL and cable have their own set of good and bad points. Sharing bandwidth? Sorry, but DSL has the same thing. You share bandwidth there too. It isn't like you are plugged into the main internet pipeline. Less stable? Gimmie a break. DSL sucked in my area at one point in time. I was 8,000 feet from the CO and my DSL was constantly up and down. Lets just acknowledge the fact that the local service in your area is the key to good broadband. If DSL sucks, go cable. If cable sucks, go DSL. Instead of constantly putting these two technologies against each other, I would rather have them in all areas of the US. This way, the user has a choice and can go with the best one.
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My Domain
Nightfall's Hockey and Life Journal | |
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rolande
Certifiable
Premium,Mod
join:2002-05-24
Powell, OH
clubs:
Host:
Linksys
AT&T Midwest
| Shared bandwidth yes, across a deterministic ATM backhaul connection. Still not exactly shared in the same sense of the word that Cable companies use. Shared upstream frequency channels across a customer node, NO.
It has been a proven fact that it only takes a handful of upstream FTP sessions within a single cable node to knock all customers on that node essentially offline or render the service so pitifully latent that it is as bad as a poorly negotiated 56K analog connection.
Cable is great if all you do is download and surf. But, if you want to host or do any large uploading etc. forget it. The cable companies have all had to crack down and police it like mad because of the widespread impact that it causes to all other customers within a node.
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Remember what they say: "There are 10 types of people in the world.. those who understand binary, and those who don't." | |
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Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
·Site5.com
·AT&T Midwest
·Comcast
| Re: Yet another cable vs. DSL argument said by rolande :
Shared bandwidth yes, across a deterministic ATM backhaul connection. Still not exactly shared in the same sense of the word that Cable companies use. Shared upstream frequency channels across a customer node, NO.
It has been a proven fact that it only takes a handful of upstream FTP sessions within a single cable node to knock all customers on that node essentially offline or render the service so pitifully latent that it is as bad as a poorly negotiated 56K analog connection.
Cable is great if all you do is download and surf. But, if you want to host or do any large uploading etc. forget it. The cable companies have all had to crack down and police it like mad because of the widespread impact that it causes to all other customers within a node.
As I said before, it all depends on what is being used in your neighborhood and who upkeeps the system. Comcast is the best in my area to my knowledge, but I am going to try DSL again. Back three years ago, DSL had a ton of problems. You talk about a few users saturating a node, which is true on cable. However, the same is true on DSL. At least the DSL I tried. It is not the fault of the technology, but the fault of the provider not upkeeping or providing enough bandwidth.
Three years ago, DSL sucked. Now I find myself looking at DSL here in the next month to determine how good they are for my needs. I am 8,000 feet from the CO so my speeds should be very good.
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My Domain
Nightfall's Hockey and Life Journal | |
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SRFireside
join:2001-01-19
Houston, TX
| Re: Yet another cable vs. DSL argument The long and short of it regarding benefits and drawbacks of DSL and Cable (as if most of you don't already know this):
DSL:
Plus - Speed is normally a constant. If you pay for 1.5Mbps you are going to get 1.5Mbps. The only thing that would make this untrue is if the ISP providing the bandwidth oversold and creates bottlenecks during peak hours. SBC over in Austin had that problem back in 2000 when they only had a couple T3's set up for their customers.
Minus - Repairing a DSL line is a great deal more involved than repairing a T1 or Cable line. Sure you have dedicated bandwidth but it's still connected with several other subscribers. If only one of the subscribers has the problem it will be a lot tougher for the technician to pinpoint.
Plus - Normally you can run servers on DSL accounts with no hassles from TOS agreements. This is due mainly to the fact the line and bandwidth is allocated to you alone and not shared with the community.
Minus - Everyone's favorite downside... availability. You have to be close enough to the CO in order to get some the fast connections. With Cable you don't have to worry about that.
Cable:
Plus - Theoretically it can go faster than DSL. While most people can't get past 1.5Mbps on DSL you are seeing speeds of up to 3Mbps and more on Cable. I myself have enjoyed 2Mb speeds on Roadrunner.
Minus - Being on a shared line means when all your neighbors start sucking up bandwidth that "faster than DSL" spiel goes out the window and depending on the usage you can theoretically get speeds no better than dialup. Personally I don't know anybody you had less than 172Kbps on any given time but it can happen.
Plus - Availability. If you can get cable television you are bound to be able to get cable internet. Some people just don't have a choice because the CO isn't close enough to them to get DSL. That automatically gives cable an upper hand.
Minus - TOS restricts use. You hear about cable companies having these invisible lines drawn on how much bandwidth you can use, not being able to use a server (sometimes not even to host games) and there are still a few cable broadband providers out there who still won't provide static IP's. DSL customers normally don't have to deal with any of this. As long as they are willing to pay for whatever services they want they get it.
Sure you can also mention satellite broadband, but from what I can tell you first have to get past a pretty sizable equipment and installation charge before you can even consider the competitive price. Then you also have potential weather interference and latency issues. | |
| | | wgbeatty
join:2002-05-25
Grand Rapids, MI
1 edit | I'd agree that this has been argued enough. Go with what works for you and your budget. We have stable, solid SBC DSL here and the price is $20 less than cable internet from Comcast. That works for us.
Warren | |
| | | Talis
join:2001-06-21
Houston, TX
| said by insomniac :
Yes, but you're sharing bandwidth with your neighbors, it's less stable, running servers is a TOS violation, blah blah blah. I can see this argument coming from a mile away now.
TOS violation? Tell me any DSL provider where this isn't a violation of their contracts as well. I don't know of any. | |
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See 6 replies to this post | |
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insomniac
Oh Yeah
Premium
join:2002-09-22
Naperville, IL
clubs:
·AT&T Midwest
| Re: Yet another cable vs. DSL argument I was just throwing out the most commonly used arguments against cable in order to prove my point that this was just going to quickly turn into another cable vs. DSL discussion. I'm on cable myself and my Comcast connection has been very stable.
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If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something. | |
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DBowmanJr
join:2003-01-22
Arlington, VA | Yes, try using it during peek hours in Washington DC, that's called less stable  | |
| | | mlohrwork
join:2001-05-30
Laurel, MD
|  High end DSL permits servers
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woody7
Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA |  Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm......
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BlooMe | |
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See 10 replies to this post | |
loadmaster
join:2001-01-10
San Jose, CA | Tax Dolars Built Most of This Nations Phone Lines Don't forget that these networks were put in with tax dollars in some places (like the TVA) and with generous tax credits in almost all other places. There should be an appropriate access fee to maintain the network but that is it. | |
| | lvas
join:2001-05-17
Glen Carbon, IL
| Re: Tax Dolars Built Most of This Nations Phone Lines OMG - get clue. Tax dollars did not build the phone network. Phone fees, and the billions upon billions and billions of dollars of stocks sold to share owners over the last 60 years built the network. Did the phone compaines get tax breaks and rightways? sure they did, but thousands of compaines get tax breaks each year and rightways - the govt takes them all the time for utilities - be it powerlines or sewer or railroad or Cable or airports. its the same in all of those industries - the public does not own those compaines. | |
| | | lesopp
join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL
1 edit | Re: Tax Dolars Built Most of This Nations Phone Lines I read somewhere that during WWII the American phone system was nationalized and run by the Army. AT some point afterward it reverted back to a non nationalized company. Scary thought by current thinking, but if it is true I would be willing to bet some tax dollars were put into the system. | |
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boogie74
join:2001-06-19
Neenah, WI
clubs:
| Re: Tax Dolars Built Most of This Nations Phone Lines said by lesopp :
I read somewhere that during WWII the American phone system was nationalized and run by the Army. AT some point afterward it reverted back to a non nationalized company. Scary thought by current thinking, but if it is true I would be willing to bet some tax dollars were put into the system.
Between 1915 and 1919, the government took "control" of AT&T for help with WWI. AT&T was compensated (I believe the amount is correct) $600,000 for this. This was the only time that there were federal dollars paid to AT&T (or any of the Bells, for that matter).
Boogie | |
| | | | | lesopp
join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL | Re: Tax Dolars Built Most of This Nations Phone Lines Couldn't remember if it was WWI or II, thanks for the clarification.
There was also the line the Army put in along side the ALCAN highway during construction, circa WWII.
As far as I've ever found that is it. | |
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boogie74
join:2001-06-19
Neenah, WI
clubs:
| Re: Tax Dolars Built Most of This Nations Phone Lines said by lesopp :
Couldn't remember if it was WWI or II, thanks for the clarification.
There was also the line the Army put in along side the ALCAN highway during construction, circa WWII.
As far as I've ever found that is it.
That does pretty much cover it. Hardly anywhere CLOSE to substantiating a claim of federal subsidies paying for the phone networks, though.
The government also did a few temporary "takeovers" of the auto industry, the leather industry, the rubber industry, the radio industry, the clothing and textile industries, etc- all during WWI and/or WWII. This is not the equivilent of saying, however, that taxes put Ford and General Motors into business.
Boogie | |
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rchandra
Stargate S G-1 And Atlantis Fan
Premium
join:2000-11-09
14225-2105
clubs: | said it before... ...I'll say (well, write) it briefly again...I wish it became NY law so that the Public Service Commission could uncork a bottle of whupass on Verizon for VZ's practice of requiring VZ local service for VZ DSL. | |
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ChrisDAT
Google Keyword Compsysnyc
join:2002-02-26
Hollis, NY
1 edit |  They all do it!!!
What's the difference? If I was happy with Dish, or my bootleg box, I could not get cable broadband without adding on cable TV that I wouldn't need/use?
For Verizon DSL in NYC, Verizon must provide your local service. They also offer incentives that bundle broadband, cell, and local+long distance as a "package," but the entry fee (just local service) is far less than for cable. Maybe it's just me, but 80-plus clams a month for TV is steep. I'd rather put that kind of recurring subscription cash into bandwidth.
It's probably just me, but I really don't see any difference in the "tactics" of the two ISPs -- It's all part of the game -- and competition keeps em honest.
You don't have to go too far around here to find a debate about cable -v- DSL tech. What's funny is that usually the discussion quickly diverts from the tech of the matter, to the experiences of various users, with vastly different ISPs, comparing service "quality" in totally different parts of the country -- that's apples and oranges, and absolutely nothing will come of that, except to confuse people who visit DSLR to learn something. I'm not saying anyone is wrong anymore than I will say that anyone is right, but we all should realize that the broadband "experience," be it Cable or DSL, in NYC cannot be compared to the same experience in fleas-knees Nebraska. | |
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