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Googled
Yay, I have FIOS
join:2001-08-13
Orchard Park, NY
 ·Verizon FiOS
 ·VoicePulse
| Re: That's what happens when you... What are you talking about? AFAIK OnStar doesn't control any part of the vehicle. It's just a value-added service that lets people find the nearest gas station/restaurant, etc or call for roadside assistance when their vehicle breaks down.
I really don't see any reason why people shouldn't be allowed to modify non-critical parts of their car. Messing with the OnStar components in your car shouldn't affect the mechanical warranty of that vehicle at all. It's akin to installing a new radio & amplifier. Should doing that void the warranty? I think not.
I've used my Garmin GPS connected to a laptop running Mappoint Europe edition with the AGPS addon. I used it to find my way around France. It worked wonderfully and didn't void any car warranties in doing so.
I can see why people would like to have access to the built in GPS on their car. One less thing to carry around. The car manufacturers should provide a serial or USB port that would give a laptop a connection to the onboard GPS. That way owners wouldn't have to void their warranty to simply use a feature of their car.
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purplejello
join:2001-08-23
Reno, NV
clubs:
| Re: That's what happens when you... Actually, based on your analogy, it is exactly the same as switching a radio.
If this is something that monitors your airbags, it is the equivalent to something that monitors for electromagnetic waves. The only difference here is importance: Something that monitors for airbag deployment is probably more important than something that monitors for the latest Hip Hop.
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rtcy
FACTS only please
Premium
join:1999-10-16
Beverly Hills, CA
 ·Verizon west (ex G..
| I happen to work in this field and can tell you, that although it does monitor several inputs, it's control is limited to the door locks and shutting off the engine, but that is commanded from the remote end only. but with a quality hack any overrides could be accomplished, BUT only for the items it controls.
the ABS ECU is not one of them | |
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Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
clubs:
| Re: That's what happens when you... Ah, well you see it's a shame, since I have to explain simple things.
I never said OnStar controlled ABS
I did say I hope MS never gets into Cars or their systems.
I have fixed many a screw up by people who may have nice tools, but have no skills (mechanical or electrical).
My post was a mix of thoughts and not 100% about OnStar capabilities, but many people only see black or white when there are several million shades of color.  | |
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Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
clubs:
1 edit | Re: That's what happens when you... said by tcp1  :
Wow. Yet another unoriginal Anti-MS joke. How quaint.
Wow another bland and sheep-like MS apologist comes out of the worm infested woodwork. said by tcp1 :
Now I'm just going to wait for the other side; some dork to make some post up about how if it was linux, you'd have to compile the engine or something equally as irrelevant, inane, and unfunny.
Funny how you call some one who chooses to use Linux "some dork". Yet you were not called any names for being a Microsoft apologist. You even had your OS thrust upon you and didn't complain a bit. Too much tunnel vision to see the real world and how you live one-sided?? I suppose you have derogatory names for users of OS/2, CP/M, Free-DOS, Mac OS, and BeOS? said by tcp1 :
Sorry.
You should be. said by tcp1 :
Computer humor is never funny. Of course, just my opinion.
It's the least common one too. Maybe you just have no sense of humor? said by tcp1 :
I'm sure the OP is a swell guy. I'm just going to spit in my hat the next time I see "BSOD" or "Winbloze".
I guess you will fill your hat up then since Windows does indeed BSOD.
Deepest sympathy for your loss of humor,
Doctor Olds | |
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| | | | rmdir
join:2003-03-13
Chicago, IL
| said by rtcy :
I happen to work in this field and can tell you, that although it does monitor several inputs, it's control is limited to the door locks and shutting off the engine
So you get the BSOD driving down the freeway at 75 and the engine dies on you? Just kidding, does it use an MS code? | |
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KAIFS
V I P
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-11
CHEEEESE WI
·AT&T Midwest
| in my 2002 Conversion 1500 Suburban, I was told by both GM and my installer that:
Onstar is tied into my stereo head unit and it is also going from there to the vehicle's computer. So just removing the stereo (regardless if I cared for onstar or not) will affect not only onstar but possibly the performance of onboard computer. I am not a mechanic but that came from two independent sources, one of which (my installer) would of benefited $$ from putting in aftermarket stereo if it would of been done.
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Googled
Yay, I have FIOS
join:2001-08-13
Orchard Park, NY
·Verizon FiOS
·VoicePulse
1 edit | Re: That's what happens when you... I guess that could make sense. I imagine that you hear the OnStar rep over the radio speakers. Though I personally would want a separate speaker for OnStar, ala speaker phone. If the OnStar system needs to access the engine computer, perhaps for roadside diagnostics, it should do so through a separate data line not through the radio. The data path OnStar -> Radio -> Engine Computer makes no sense and must have been cost saving engineering at work. | |
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| | | evagilon
join:2003-01-10
Imperial Beach, CA
| nope, they are lying by telling half truths, the systems are connected, but still independent, you just have to call onstar to tell the the nessassary changes you have made. hell you could even swap out the onboard comp,put in a preformance package, as long as you call onstar ahead, and leave their system alone. but tell half truths yourselve... youself never does the installation. | |
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Loren-Thal
@pacbell.n
 from:
3SGTE
| FYI, there are aftermarket adapters that will allow you to put in a new radio. They allow access to the onstar system, and can even replace the door chime that is part of your factory radio. I have done these in the past, so I know its possible.
The only connection onstar has with the radio is that it uses the radios speakers to allow your to hear the operators. The vehicles computers is NOT connected to the radio, no matter what BS the dealers tell you.
The adapter will allow continued use of the Onstar with a new aftermarket radio, and any calls to Onstar and heard through the front 2 speakers instead of all 4.
I woudl suggest you check out a few more stereo shops. | |
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kba829
join:2000-11-10
Arlington, VA
·Verizon FiOS
| I thought about buying a Saab (GM product now)that included OnStar. One reason I didn't buy it was that it seemed like the different electronic functions were way too integrated together; if one part malfunctioned or was altered, it would affect different areas of the car. | |
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viperm
Carpe Diem
Premium
join:2002-07-09
Winchester, CA
| VIP the best thing to do and I have done this many times in the past is unfortunately you have to keep the existing radio in there power ground ign wires etc I have found in the past that there is enough space behind dashes of full size vehicles or center consoles to stash the factory radio and mount any aftermarket radio. I have been installing for over 20 + years so I have had to deal with this in the past. As I don't install anymore but do keep up to date with what the high end installers are still doing.. | |
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viperm
Carpe Diem
Premium
join:2002-07-09
Winchester, CA
| Re: That's what happens when you... IT DOES NOT VOID the warranty per the Magneson Moss Warranty Act BY law they must allow you to install ANY aftermarket device whether it be cell phone or high end stereo. Many times dealers force you to buy there "factory" alarms or car stereo packaged and many times are crap so they by law must allow you to put in whatever you want as long as it does not butcher the harnesses etc..
I used to work for an alarm manufacturer and we dealt with this all the time and FORD, GM all the big names know about it.
Here is a link to the info that may help you its been a while since I read up on it not sure if this particular site is helpful but do a google search on it..
»www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/bus···anty.htm | |
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| | | | CCCMTech
Premium,VIP,MVM
join:2002-05-17
Pound, VA
| Re: That's what happens when you... Generally you are allowed to install these aftermarket devices but it must be installed by the dealer. Most warranties if only voids the electrical warranty.
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35375105
Premium
join:2002-11-20
127.0.0.1
| said by Googled :
What are you talking about? AFAIK OnStar doesn't control any part of the vehicle. It's just a value-added service that lets people find the nearest gas station/restaurant, etc or call for roadside assistance when their vehicle breaks down.
I really don't see any reason why people shouldn't be allowed to modify non-critical parts of their car. Messing with the OnStar components in your car shouldn't affect the mechanical warranty of that vehicle at all. It's akin to installing a new radio & amplifier. Should doing that void the warranty? I think not.
I've used my Garmin GPS connected to a laptop running Mappoint Europe edition with the AGPS addon. I used it to find my way around France. It worked wonderfully and didn't void any car warranties in doing so.
I can see why people would like to have access to the built in GPS on their car. One less thing to carry around. The car manufacturers should provide a serial or USB port that would give a laptop a connection to the onboard GPS. That way owners wouldn't have to void their warranty to simply use a feature of their car.
If onstar doesn't control any part of the vehicle then how does it unlock your doors for you?
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lazarus_
join:2002-08-31
Resolute, NU
| Or another reason not to buy GM.. If they think they can void a whole car warrantee b/c you dont want to pay for some lame fees after dishing out a ton of cash for their car they must not know its a competitive car market where the buyer rules...
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3SGTE
ST215W
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
| said by Doctor Olds :
You misunderstand. You do not have to use OnStar at all or pay any fees if you don't choose to use it. Not using it, doesn't void the warranty.
However, Pulling it out of the dash and soldering to it is another story and can void the warranty.
Regards,
Doctor Olds
Right...
And if your engine starts leaking oil, this is obviously your fault, and you deserve to pay.
I don't think so...
I work at a Car dealer, non GM, and we give the customer the benefit of the doubt. I know many might find that hard to believe.
Dr. Olds....
Hmmmm sounds like a handle an oldsmobile tech might use...
Any bias?
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Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
clubs:
| Re: That's what happens when you... said by 3SGTE :
said by Doctor Olds :
You misunderstand. You do not have to use OnStar at all or pay any fees if you don't choose to use it. Not using it, doesn't void the warranty.
However, Pulling it out of the dash and soldering to it is another story and can void the warranty.
Regards,
Doctor Olds
Right...
And if your engine starts leaking oil, this is obviously your fault, and you deserve to pay.
I don't think so...
I work at a Car dealer, non GM, and we give the customer the benefit of the doubt. I know many might find that hard to believe.
Dr. Olds....
Hmmmm sounds like a handle an Oldsmobile tech might use...
Any bias?
The only BIAS is your very obvious, but poorly crafted bait. Oil leak, right? LMAO  How is that even remotely related to OnStar electronics? Oh let me guess, you work for "fill in latest Korean import" and only know about oil changes.
As far as my handle goes it's for the 1968 to 1972 Oldsmobile W-Machines and I have never worked for a GM car Dealership in any capacity. ROTFLMFAO
I love these conspiracy theorists posts. LOL Especially when they don't know the difference between electronics and lubrication. | |
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3SGTE
ST215W
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
| Re: That's what happens when you... said by Doctor Olds :
I love these conspiracy theorists posts. LOL Especially when they don't know the difference between electronics and lubrication.
Taken from the article here at DSLR:
"modifying the OnStar service can often invalidate not only the OnStar warranty, but the warranty for the entire vehicle"
It seems that you are defending this practice based on your posts. That is what I take issue with.
Please re-read your previous posts. Perhaps you created the wrong impression accidentally.
regarding my qualifications and abilities, I really think you don't have even the slightest clue.
Here you go:
»/r0/download/3···epon.jpg
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
 ·Cox HSI
| said by Doctor Olds :
Oil leak, right? LMAO How is that even remotely related to OnStar electronics?
EXACTLY.
So, if you modify your OnStar, how come the car manufacturer should be able to refuse to honor your warranty on the engine? This is just the classic "Take the money, but refuse to pay up" corporate thieving (Like Insurance companies do all the time.)
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nothing00
join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY
| Re: That's what happens when you... said by Doctor Olds :
Simple. You alter OnStar and not paying full attention when you solder you accidentally create a voltage bridge (aka short, but not to ground that would pop a fuse but current going where it shouldn't or at a higher value than it should be) or pinch a harness (another short) putting the dash back in that creates voltage feedback or increase to the engine management system. Now the system thinks you are running too lean and it over compensates by adding more ON cycles to the fuel injectors and that washes the oil off the cylinder walls prematurely wearing out the engine in 10,000 miles due to lack of lubrication.
Guess what? No Warranty.
Don't know as much as you thought?
I can't speak authoritively on OnStar electronics but that's not required because it's incredibly obvious you aren't close to an authority on the subject.
If this is a possible mode of failure with OnStar electronics in a vehicle it shouldn't be on the road - at all.
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Kawartha
It's always about you... isn't it?
Premium
join:2002-11-11
KawaLakes
clubs:
| Re: That's what happens when you... wow... u took a complete good thread and turned it to crap... thank you.
If you cannot talk to us without a demeaning, sarcastic comment... troll somewhere else. You are NOT better than anybody else here. 3SGTE did not get his MVM tag for nothing... he is a valuable member, and has excellent points to make... if we let him.. and if we don't crap on each other.
Do not even reply to this.. unless it is to apologize.. give us a break.
Kawartha
-= sorry everybody... was hard enough to read the thread even without the belittling comments.... biting my tongue now =-
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Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
clubs:
| Re: That's what happens when you... Do not even think you made any sense as "I" started this *thread* branch.
How do you know about her MVM? Were *you* there? Didn't think so. I was here before MVM even existed. It doesn't mean the person with the tag is better or smarter or faster than anyone with out it.
Off with you and your MVM worshipping. | |
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
·Cox HSI
| Rediculous scenerio. The Onstar system has no more control over the engine management computer then say, a car alarm does. Your scenerio is simply not plausible.... furthermore, car engine computer was capable of operating in such a faulty manner as to destroy the engine in the manner you suggest, why then yes, it should be covered, as it's a design defect.
I'm not claiming by any means to be an expert, but I'm certainly not going to create outlandish scenerios to justify bad corporate policy, either.
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"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
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Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
clubs:
| Re: That's what happens when you... The OnStar system can shut off the engine remotely and if it were to intermittently short after you've opened the box and soldered to it and by doing this over and over, it allows the vehicle to either run like crap and or have unburnt fuel in the oil due to all the intermittent shutdowns continually happening (maybe fast enough to not be noticed at first), you can bet a good technician would find the cause and it would get flagged as not under warranty. It would be customer pay.
Regards,
Doctor Olds | |
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3SGTE
ST215W
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
| Re: That's what happens when you... said by Doctor Olds :
The OnStar system can shut off the engine remotely and if it were to intermittently short after you've opened the box and soldered to it and by doing this over and over, it allows the vehicle to either run like crap and or have unburnt fuel in the oil due to all the intermittent shutdowns continually happening (maybe fast enough to not be noticed at first), you can bet a good technician would find the cause and it would get flagged as not under warranty. It would be customer pay.
Regards,
Doctor Olds
LMAO
That is a pretty long limb you are crawling out on...
In the event that the car is to be shut down by onstar, do you really think that GM would design it to deliver fuel without spark?
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Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
clubs: | Re: That's what happens when you... You can tell by your post that you have never professionally worked on an automobile in your life. Changing oil or spark plugs does not count, BTW. | |
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3SGTE
ST215W
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
| Re: That's what happens when you... As I said prevoiusly, you are wrong.
I have been employed as a tech at a dealership for 10+ years. I understand quite well how these systems operate.
I can also understand the mechanism by which a running engine can be shut down safely.
I understand the pitfalls that would present themselves if a running engine was shut down without cutting fuel first.
As much as I believe that GM has room for improvement in the mechanical design and reliability of thier cars, I am certain that the design of the system they use would not allow for the scenario you describe. Basic rules (safety/cause and effect) mean that it would not be plausible for the system (engine ecu) to operate in that manner.
If a sufficent volume of fuel was to be injected in to the engine after spark was cut, there would be severe overheating of the catalytic converters.
GM would NOT allow this for a few reasons.
1. This would present a fire hazard.
2. The number of defective converters would increase, costing them money.
3. The potential for bad press/recall of vehicles.
There are many considerations that must be taken in to account when designing a vehicle. One of these is the "what if" for situations where a part or system fails. The system must fail in a benign manner.
I might be tempted to ask how long ago you retired...
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Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
clubs:
| Re: That's what happens when you... I won't go into details about heat soak and fuel injector leakage on ALL (not just GM) vehicles with a quick lube and oil change worker as that's all you've done for the last 10 years. You are not a technician, Period.
You are talking about systems you don't understand and can't fathom. | |
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rww
@ibm.com
from:
Doctor Olds
| Dont pay attention to them, they dont know what they are talking about. I have onstar in my Acura RL. The onstar system is integrated into the car. So its not like changing out the radio. I know when I use the cell phone feature of my onstar, I hear the other end through the radio speakers, Plus when onstar talks to me the radio automatically turns down. Also, onstar has the ability to unlock your doors, honk your horn for you if you cant find your car etc. Its is integrated into the car. So it should void out the warranty if someone messes with it. It was designed by someone to work a specific way. If onstar wanted everyone to use their thinkpad with their system, it would have been developed that way. I like my Acura RL wit the navi system/onstar/integrated cell phone, etc | |
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| ripoff
join:2002-01-27
canada
| North American warranties are made to sell the car, not offer protection to the owner. Most warranties have so may weasel words that they can deny a claim how ever they wish. The OnStar tampering is just another trick to deny claims.
Buy from Japan! | |
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Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
| Re: That's what happens when you... My mother-in-law's 2 year old mini van's transmission went and the dealership says it's not covered under the warranty. I don't know the specifics but I know they haven't altered the vehicle in ANY way (except it doesn't have the original oil or gasoline.)
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| | | crabjoe0
join:2003-12-07
Parkville, MD
| Re: That's what happens when you... Maybe they're denying it because she didn't do any maintaince as specified in the manual or maybe her warrenty has expired due to milage??? Don't know the reason, but the dealer should have told her why they are denying the warrenty work.
BTW, unless the dealer/maufacturer can show the modification caused a given part to fail, they can't deny the warrenty on it. | |
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Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
clubs: | Re: That's what happens when you... Read the rest of the thread before you jump the gun.  Or Not! I don't care. | |
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rontmishopcom
@attbi.com | the Moss-Magnuson warranty act states that modifying anything will not affect the rest of the vehicles warranty unless it can be proved that the modification caused the problem and then the warranty will only be void for that portion of the vehicle. | |
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Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
clubs:
1 edit | Re: That's what happens when you... said by rontmishopcom:
the Moss-Magnuson warranty act states that modifying anything will not affect the rest of the vehicles warranty unless it can be proved that the modification caused the problem and then the warranty will only be void for that portion of the vehicle.
How wrong you are!
»www.inkjetsupermall.com/terms.htm
"All manufactures of equipment are specifically prohibited from voiding warranties because someone elected to use a consumable not of their brand. This is covered under both the Moss-Magnuson Warranty Act, and the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. There is an exception to this in the Moss-Magnuson Act. That exception allows a manufacturer to require you to use their products in equipment they warrant provided that those products are provided at no cost to the consumer."
»www.hyundaiperformance.com/forum···?t=34316
MAGNUSON MOSS WARRANTY ACT
US Code - Title 15, Chapter 50, Sections 2301-2312
Legally, a vehicle manufacturer cannot void the warranty on a vehicle due to an aftermarket part unless they can prove that the aftermarket part caused or contributed to the failure in the vehicle (per the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act (15 U.S.C. 2302(C)) . For best results, consider working with performance-oriented dealerships with a proven history of working with customers. If your vehicle manufacturer fails to honor emission/warranty claims, contact EPA at (202) 260-2080 or www.epa.gov. If federal warranty protection is denied, contact the FTC at (202) 326-3128 or www.ftc.gov.
It Has NOTHING To Do With MODIFYING Existing Electronic Parts or attaching by solder to them!
It covers consumables like Oil Filters, Toner Cartridges, Air Filters, Brake Pads, Clutch sets, etc. and other non-warranty parts.
For example a K&N Air Filter:
»www.automotivehelper.com/topic103674.htm
No the Aircharger kit is not emissions legal. The dealership may not void a warranty or force you to use specific products per Federal laws. The Moss-Magnuson Warranty Act of the Fair Trade Commission states that if a part is not covered under warranty, the consumer may use any brand they choose to. Air filters are not covered under the warranty so you are free to use any brand you choose. With the Aircharger kit since you are replacing the air intake tube, and that part is under warranty, then the dealer can void that part of the warranty if they wish. This usually is not an issue. Keep one thing in mind; if you change your rims and tires, the rims are under warranty also. This could void your warranty also.
Regards,
Doctor Olds | |
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3SGTE
ST215W
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
| Re: That's what happens when you... said by Doctor Olds :
It Has NOTHING To Do With MODIFYING Existing Electronic Parts or attaching by solder to them!
{snip}
Regards,
Doctor Olds
You quoted one small section from MM. Section 2301-2312.
This does not prove your point.
The issue here is GM voiding the warranty on the entire vehicle due to 1 modification.
Said by article:
"Unfortunately for such tinkerers, modifying the OnStar service can often invalidate not only the OnStar warranty, but the warranty for the entire vehicle. "
That (not you) is what everyone here takes issue with.
Admittedly, I and others are having a difficult time understanding why it is that you support this concept.
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viperm
Carpe Diem
Premium
join:2002-07-09
Winchester, CA
| I have gone to court for dealers of Car Audio and alarms and 99% of the time the dealers (Car dealers) could not prove it was the car audio or alarm installer that caused an SRS light to come on or a fuel pump to just go bad on a new car. Granted there are hacks out there and believe me I would not have stuck up for them but those that were outstanding installers that had been to many of my trainings I went to battle for them.. | |
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rapidrick
join:1999-10-28
Bear, DE | Insane..... So, you modify Onstar, and somehow you have no warranty for the entire car?!?! Why? If I have it removed, do I have a warranty? Can I replace the factory radio, and still keep my warranty?
Being sarcastic here.... | |
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socalz
Premium
join:2001-01-26
Anaheim, CA
clubs:
| Re: Insane..... I could see where if you hacked into the Onstar unit and it failed, they could deny a warranty claim for that unit, but there's no way they can void the warranty for the rest of the car. GM would have to prove that tampering with the Onstar unit caused the transmission to fail in order to void the warranty on the tranny, for example. I do agree with the article where it says it would be easier to just buy a GPS receiver for your laptop instead of hacking into the unit buried in the dash.
More info on auto warranties and modifying your car at »www.enjoythedrive.com/content/?id=8124 for those who are interested.
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draven
Ex-Mod 2004-10
join:2002-02-20
my bunker
| Why'd they get it in the first place? I don't see a problem with this at all.
If the people got it in the first place, they must have wanted it. If they hack it, they are accepting the consequences.
If they didn't want it as a feature of the vehicle, they shouldn't have opted for it!
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| sago
join:2001-12-19
| Re: Why'd they get it in the first place? It's coming standard in many vehicles since 2002, and it costs a little over $400 dollars per year for the service.
You call OnStar, they look up your GPS location for you, then they tell you. It's much easier to look up the GPS yourself, seeing as how the GPS unit is in your car already.
People are basically saying it's a ripoff, as far as the GPS stuff goes. Plus, it takes longer to send that GPS data from your vehicle over the cellular network to OnStar so they can read back the data to you. Horribly inefficient. Now calling OnStar to unlock your doors when you get locked out, having them help you when your car is stolen, those things are not being talked about. It's only the GPS capabilities of the unit that are being talked about. | |
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draven
Ex-Mod 2004-10
join:2002-02-20
my bunker
1 edit | Re: Why'd they get it in the first place? My experience with these systems is that you don't have to pay for anything should you not want it. It simply doesn't work if you don't pay for it. If you need your doors unlocked or some 'one-time' service such as that, you can pay them a one-time fee of somewhere between $50-100 and they'll do it for you. So it is up to the individual to decide whether his/her usage warrants the yearly fee.
Personally, I wouldn't buy a car with a 20 speaker stereo system if I didn't need it. So if it's standard and it's costing me extra moolah, I'd find a different car! Simple!
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"I never thought much of the courage of a lion tamer. Inside the cage he is at least safe from people." - George Bernard Shaw | |
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KAIFS
V I P
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-11
CHEEEESE WI
·AT&T Midwest
| GM is really picky... when I wanted to do upgrades on my truck (hi res and broadband recommended!!!) SEE IT HERE, I actually had to call some guy in MI to make sure my 7 years bumper to bumper will not get voided. I had to fax him list of upgrades/customazations in order to retain my warranty. Last time I went with a stupid ACDelco battery issues, dealership immediately tried to tell me it is voided because of the isolator installed. It is not until I showed a document stating that it will be OK (as long as done professionally) to install without voiding the warranty. It is crazy what kind of loops one had to jump through to get these things done.... And with onstar radios, onstar is tied in with factory stere unit and if one takes it out, there is so much bypassing has to be done that I opted to keep the original factory look and add on to it - which ended up working out great, but... no LCD for me  on the front.
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sago
join:2001-12-19
1 edit | biodiesel Manufacturers also, apparently, are threatening the same type of problem with warranties when people use biodiesel in the car.
It doesn't make any sense that when an unrelated part of the vehicle breaks down that it would have anything to do with using biodiesel. No one has reported problems with commercial biodiesel - as a matter of fact there are many reports from owners of cars and trucks with diesel engines that their cars tend to run quieter and have more power when using biodiesel - many notice the difference almost right away after filling up. Apparently the diesel #2 fuel doesn't have very strict standards, so you don't always know what you get, and some fuel may be better than other fuel. Biodiesel has stricter standards, the manufacturing process produces cleaner fuel, generally speaking.
And the thing is, even if you filled up with regular diesel, and the diesel was contaminated and it messed up your engine, I doubt you would get any kind of warranty service on that. Warranties just don't apply to other people's fuel. Anyway, using biodiesel is safe (in the summer), and it won't hurt your engine at all. And I doubt that any kind of warranty service that needs to be done on the car would even bring up the issue of the fact that there is biodiesel in the tank, and add to that that in the winter, only a small percentage of the fuel is biodiesel anyway. So basically, biodiesel users don't worry about warranties being voided because they know those are just empty threats that will probably never even come up. Besides, the environment and freedom from imported oil is far more important than any darned warranty.
OTOH, the thing that strikes me about the whole OnStar modification procedure is that you have to solder the RS-232 9-pin serial port directly on to the Motorola GPS unit's motherboard. AND the wiring is different, depending on which Motorola GPS unit is included in your vehicle. Personally, I wouldn't contemplate touching a soldering iron to my brand-new motherboard; is it really necessary? I suppose you could do it, but you'd better know what you are doing...
Like GM said, it's probably easier to spend a $100 and get a GPS unit, than to break out the soldering iron to your OnStar. | |
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richk_1957
If ..Then..Else
Premium
join:2001-04-11
Minas Tirith | Re: biodiesel What's BioDiesel? | |
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bigunk
Gort, Klattu Birada Nikto
join:2001-02-10
USA
| Re: biodiesel Diesel fuel where a major component is french fry grease, doughnut grease, stuff like that. HAve a look at »www.greenincubator.com/aboutbiodiesel/
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
·Comcast Formerly ..
| Re: biodiesel ...and there are real issues with using it, although maxi-tree huggers will tell you there aren't. I am aware of several instances of biodiesel leaving an insoluble sludge on boats with diesel engines, to the point where entire fuel systems, including tanks and lines, had to be replaced. There are lots of people with a $$ interest in selling biodiesel, but most independent mechanics will tell you that it isn't worth the risk.
Calvoiper
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bigunk
Gort, Klattu Birada Nikto
join:2001-02-10
USA
| Re: biodiesel I wouldn't be surprised. I would guess that biodiesel would have a higher "sludge temperature" than regular diesel. By this I mean it would transition from a liquid to a more solid state at higher temperatures, thus making its use in colder climes a risky proposition. If I read the website correctly, it does mention the product should be used in warmer weather areas.
FYI, I prefer gasoline to diesel for most applications. Yeah, diesel has its strong points too, but I have no use for those strengths.
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rchandra
Stargate S G-1 And Atlantis Fan
Premium
join:2000-11-09
14225-2105
clubs:
| always wondered about hackability In response to other posters about voiding the whole vehicle warranty: I have heard radio ads (recordings of OnStar subscribers and CSRs talking, with an additional voice-over) where engine diagnostics are done ("I see 'check engine soon' lit up" "let me just do a quick check here...I'm showing you may be having an engine idle problem..."). I imagine it is simply very similar to a tech. connecting a code scanner to the appropriate port, but I don't know for sure. Now if I am futzing around w/ the OnStar connections/connectors, and I send a very bad voltage down one of these diagnostic access lines, and I toast my engine control computer, that's a REALLY costly repair. If I were GM, I wouldn't wanna hafta cover that.
I always wondered about this remote door unlock business. Is it susceptible to a replay attack? Can I just sit near someone's vehicle with a receiver of some sort, find out what sort of stuff is being sent over the air, and simply replay the data stream at a time of my choosing? Or were they smart enough to use challenge-response over the cell phone link or pubkey crypto with something like the time affecting the data stream (packet signed by GM and verified by the OnStar computer w/ GM's pubkey)? (Don't forget these units have GPS which conveys extremely accurate time, so any unlock packet timestamp could have a slop factor of like 5 seconds or less to account for possible hops over satellite links.)
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richk_1957
If ..Then..Else
Premium
join:2001-04-11
Minas Tirith
| Re: always wondered about hackability This is something that everyone should be concerned about. To open a car door, you need a key. If you lock your car, you feel pretty safe. You need a key to start the engine
Now, can the system be hacked - you don't need a key for anything, just a laptop & the know-how to steal an expensive vehicle. Can you say 'no security':( | |
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avd706
insert annoying animated gif here
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ | Re: always wondered about hackability there are easier ways to open a car door. From snooping the key fobs unlock codes to using a crowbar. You can use a lock pick or a slim jim. | |
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richk_1957
If ..Then..Else
Premium
join:2001-04-11
Minas Tirith | Re: always wondered about hackability True, true
But it's not always that easy to start the engine, which OnStar can do | |
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insomniac84
join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN | For what reason does onstar have the ability to start an engine? | |
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MacLeech
The one and only
Premium
join:2001-07-14
SoCal
1 edit | Anyone try Networkcar? I keep hearing ads for an apparent OnStar competitor...Networkcar.com
Anyone try it or see reviews compairing it to OnStar?
»www.networkcar.com
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Rash
Ouch
Premium
join:2002-09-27
Walkersville, MD
clubs: | Who Wants To Be Tracked Anyhow? Blah, on-star os just another way for people to track you, be it the Govt or GM..
As for the warranty, that should vary from state to state most states make the dealer prove what you did resulted in damage to the vehicle voiding the warranty. | |
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richk_1957
If ..Then..Else
Premium
join:2001-04-11
Minas Tirith
| It had to come... I don't know why you shouldn't be able to modify any part of a car that you have purchased. The manufactures are just locking in that for service you have to go to THIER dealer and pay THEIR prices, or face getting the warranty voided. And maybe if you hack into the OnStar system that will void the warranty on OnStar - but the whole car - ridiculous. And someone posted about a battery issue & they had to install something and the dealer said the warranty is voided for THAT!?!?! If you get this system, you should get instructions what you can/can't do, what has to be done by a professional, etc.
This is just lining the pockets of the dealers & car makers. You have to go to them for service if you want to keep your warranty. I remember something similar a of years back. Your car needs service, you take it to a local mechanic and he says that he can't do anything because he can't get a readout on the computer & only authorized dealers can do that. So you go to one & pay a lot more for something simple. And you had to go again to the dealer because doing certain things voided the warranty and when you asked - you got the answer 'its connected to the computer' but wouldn't specify. Eventually there was a big lawsuit and the car makers had to make the engine codes available & mechanics had lists of things that had to be done by a dealer to keep th warranty. | |
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nateerb
join:2002-07-17
Milwaukee, WI
| 31K on a 36K warranty - then it's hack time On-Star is a joke, and as standard equipment I was forced into it on my '02 Monte Carlo.
They are deceptive about their service packages - if you add cellular time, in my case 100 minutes good for a year @ $49.95, and do not renew the actual On-Star package you will lose the minutes you purchaed in only 6 months time. I asked their CSR about this when I added the minutes as I had no intention of keeping the On-Star service after my initial free year. She told me they would be good for a year in spite of not renewing the full On-Star package which was ultimately another corporate lie.
I paid cash for the vehicle (I own it - not GMAC) so in March or April when I'm over my 36K and the warranty is done it's hack city. And I've never felt comfortable that some yokel in Carolina can see where the Monte's at anytime, anyday. That'll be the first thing to get "fixed". | |
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GeekNJ
Premium
join:2000-09-23
Waldwick, NJ
| Too much effort - cheap solutions The effort to locate and hack the unit seems like a lot of work which might or might not void your warranty. My suggestion, other then for the "fun" factor, is go buy a GPS to throw on your dash.
Today you can get a GPS for $100. It's not like you don't need to use your computer anyway, so for $100 (or less) get one and not worry about doing any damage.
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Ben677
join:2000-07-08
Monroe, GA | Re: Too much effort - cheap solutions Exactly. It's just that some folks would rather spend hours and hours of their time than part with a few bucks. Personaly my time is more valuable to me. | |
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Desi
Premium
join:2002-05-05
Kanata, ON
clubs:
| Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act I'm surprised that nobody has cited the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act yet, legally, the car maker cannot void your waranty, UNLESS the failure (for which your car is in) was DIRECTLY caused by the modification/aftermarket part. Basically, if you mod your OnStar, and tomorow your engine blows up or something, they CAN NOT deny your claim, as the engine is in no way related to OnStar. This is most likely a scare tactic by GM, trying to protect their "investment" in the OnStar system...
»www.sema.org/content/?id=8128
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| wtansill
Ncc1701
join:2000-10-10
Falls Church, VA
| Re: Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act said by Desi :
I'm surprised that nobody has cited the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act yet, legally, the car maker cannot void your waranty, UNLESS the failure (for which your car is in) was DIRECTLY caused by the modification/aftermarket part. Basically, if you mod your OnStar, and tomorow your engine blows up or something, they CAN NOT deny your claim, as the engine is in no way related to OnStar. This is most likely a scare tactic by GM, trying to protect their "investment" in the OnStar system...
»www.sema.org/content/?id=8128
I agree, that legally you are protected. The question though is, do you have the money to fight the company if they tell you your warranty is void? How deep are your pockets? Legal protection is worthless unless you have the money to take these folks to court and fight for your rights.
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Ben677
join:2000-07-08
Monroe, GA
| Re: Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act [QUOTE= wtansill I agree, that legally you are protected. The question though is, do you have the money to fight the company if they tell you your warranty is void? How deep are your pockets? Legal protection is worthless unless you have the money to take these folks to court and fight for your rights.
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In most cases you shouldn't have to fight about it. I work for a new car dealer as a tech and we only restrict the warranty on the modified component or system. So for example if you modify the suspension it doesn't affect the warranty on the engine or any other system for that matter. | |
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3SGTE
ST215W
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
1 edit | The SEMA excerpt from the act is relavant to thier issue, which is primarily sales and installation of aftermarket parts.
It is not a reprint of the act in its entirety.
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Lurch77
Ugly
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
·CenturyLink
 ·HiOconto
2 edits | Warranty Misunderstandings edit: looks like Desi StYlE beat to the punch with his post above.
Some of you guys and/or gals do not know your warranty rights. For example, someone above said:
quote:
I agree with you but apparently you haven't realized that installing a new stereo system (not installed by the dealer) into any new vehicle automatically voids the warranty.
That is 100% incorrect. According to the Magnuson-Moss
Warranty Act, a vehicle warranty cannot be terminated, except for parts directly effected by such modification. For example, installing a new in dash CD player cannot void the warranty for the drivers seat adjustment motor, ect.
»www.ravelco.net/magnusonmossact.htm | |
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Fobulous
Premium
join:2002-08-14
Missouri City, TX
clubs: | Stupid Just plain stupid. | |
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spg
Grrrr
join:2001-10-31
NOT Texas!
| Re: Stupid The wording was CAN, NOT WILL. Depending on what you do, it can void the warranty.
Suppose the ring and pinion go out on your new Avalanche; would altering the OnStar void the warranty? Probably not.
But, say you do cause a short and the automatic door locks get fried, that probably WOULD void the warranty.
Why is anyone surprised at this? | |
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JAXx
aka Stephen
Premium
join:2000-03-31
New York, NY | Gov't hacking Onstar On a related subject an appeals court recently said that the fed gov't can legally hack into Onstar (with a court order presumably) and turn the mic into a bug! | |
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insomniac84
join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN
| I wonder how long.... They most likely will just find a way to disable the output that that serial port is connecting to. This onStar thing sounds scary though. At all times they are tracking you and your speed and god knows what else, even when you don't even pay for the service. I would never get a car with that thing in it. | |
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3SGTE
ST215W
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there | Re: I wonder how long.... Keep in mind, that type of tracking is technically possible with any cellphone too.
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| jsouth
Jsouth
join:2000-12-12
Wichita, KS | Onstar doesn't track you or your speed unless you car is stolen and if you don't pay for it they don't do it at all. No matter what the paranoid trolls say. The thing that can record you speed etc is an entirely different module. | |
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rklein
God Among Hogs
join:2001-01-18
Clinton, MA
1 edit | Bells & Whistles should be *OPTIONS*! I'm just glad my vehicles don't have OnStar. Frankly, I wish my Saturn didn't have airbags. I've always worn my seatbelt and have a lot of faith in the belts. Airbags add weight, cost, and complexity. I'd also like to put my smaller diameter Grant steering wheel in the Saturn, but the airbag puts the kibosh on that.
If I want GPS I'll buy a GPS unit. If I want help over the phone I'll buy a cell phone. If I want to be able to call someone to remotely unlock my car...well, I can live without that. | |
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| mgmrick
join:2001-06-24
Port Byron, NY | Re: Bells & Whistles should be *OPTIONS*! And they think they can stop file sharing? These rich folks hacking onstar that can afford it just to save a buck. | |
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Ewalking
join:2002-11-14
not saying |  Hacking onstar related to broadband?
They should be talking about modem hacking. For a website that claims they are not owned by "big corporations" they sure act like it.. heh | |
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91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT | I think I'll hold onto my old car, thank you! After reading all this, I think I'll hang onto my '59 DeSoto. At least I can service all the parts and it doesn't unlock the doors or shut off the engine at the whim of law enforcement. | |
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| Microsoft 98
join:2003-01-22
Micmac, NS | Re: I think I'll hold onto my old car, thank you! Just shows anything to do with communication can be crack into
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autoengineer
@insightBB.com
| OnStar and Vehicle 'Options' I work in the auotmotive industry and can verify that whether you like it or not, your vehicle does store data about you. Many familiar with the vehicle bus know that messages are constantly sent and received by many devices in their respective loops. However, most of those devices (especially safety devices like your SDM...air bag controller) store everything it 'sees' going across the bus for a minimum of 255 ignition cycles. If you're familiar with the products in your car you know that items like your cruise control, speedometer, radio, engine control unit, OnStar, ABS, etc... all send and receive messages the common user would NOT like stored or even hacked. These messages often include speed, wheel positioning, RPMs, GPS positioning, etc...
What does all of this mean? When you're in an accident you have 255 ignition cycles worth of data stored and approximately 5 seconds of 'before' the crash data stored. Additionally, with OnStar...I worked on software for that product. Engine enable/disable, door lock/unlock, vehicle 'monitoring' (listening to your conversations) can all be done. You are correct that 'ethically' and 'legally' it shouldn't be done without your permission or only when your vehicle is stolen. That doesn't stop the 'knowledgeable' hacker from sending those commands to your vehicle? Anyone with basic understanding of class 2 communication, $50 to spend in components at Radio Shack, and an understanding of GPS can send the 'unlock' doors command to your vehicle. Then engine 'enable' command. Drive off with your vehicle, use the web's information about 'bypassing' your OnStar system (or use a laptop in the same manner as a 'Hypertech' reprogrammer to re-flash your Engine Control Unit with a calibration saying that onstar doesn't exist in that model which would allow them to physically remove the unit), then they're off to the races!
The point of all of this information is not to scare anyone. It's to educate you that 1) Whether you like it or not, the world's not perfect and ANYTHING can be hacked or monitored without you knowing, 2) Remind you that just because you're afraid of something doesn't mean that the technology is going to go away, 3) Urge the 'common' users not to mess with devices they don't fully understand, leave it to the professionals because you can cause irrepairable damage, 4) Warn that those doing illegal things are usually caught in the long run. Some people are better at not getting caught than others..just like speeding, so don't be the 'second guy' and get in trouble!!!
Just because data can be recorded on your vehicle doesn't mean that someone will use it against you. When vehicles are serviced or brought in for a 'recall' that data can be downloaded from your vehicle and shared with Automotive OEMs and suppliers, etc... Also, remember recalls aren't all ways because of vehicular problems...sometimes we just want to get field data from cars actually on the road to ensure we are designing things for the real world. I know because I spend certain periods of the year using that data to aid in design improvements, etc... | |
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Hacking OnStar
Re: That's what happens when you...
