 
CatSnak
RIP Splashy - We miss you
Premium
join:2001-05-06
Lakeside, CA | Go figure... One item that really needs some legislation against it and they can't even define it properly!!
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 | TheXerox
join:2002-04-05
Iowa
| Re: Go figure... I certainly hope they find a way to define it and soon. I do tech support for an ISP and I get a couple of spyware calls every day. It's made worse by the ever changing tactics these morons who create the spyware use (ie: hacking the hosts file, editing the registry, re-installing the spyware as someone is uninstalling it, etc). IMO, this would be a law which is long overdue but one which will be welcomed by myaself and many other techs. | |
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Omega
Displaced Ohioan
Premium
join:2002-07-30
Cheyenne, WY
clubs:  | Re: Go figure... I help my freinds out with their computers, and spyware is the #1 thing that screws their computers up.
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"The doctor's X-Rayed my head and found nothing" | |
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CatSnak
RIP Splashy - We miss you
Premium
join:2001-05-06
Lakeside, CA
| Re: Go figure... Yeah same here. Every time I get a call from someone with problems and I sit down at their PC to figure out there is almost always a *hit load of spyware or some such crap installed on it and they aren't even aware of it.
I have to give credit to one of my friends though. She isn't a PC guru but she knew enough to tell me that it was there she just didn't know how to get rid of it.
Thank god for Ad-aware. 
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Former Director of Communications for the Crunchenstein Project
Join Us at Team Starfire
Join the BBRBF clan | |
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LordMalak
join:2003-07-02
Brazil
 ·Net Virtua
| If I could have legislation my way simply because I'm a tech, i would go like this:
1. Anyone considering buying a PC would have to take a proficiency test, much like a driving exam. Oonly licensed computer users would be able to purchase a PC, thus reducing several problems commonly associated with viruses, DDOS attacks, etc.
2. Such proficiency test would include an IQ test. (low score, no PC).
3. All PCs would come with PC Anywhere pre-installed so techs could easily access a customer's PC for troubleshooting purposes, thus saving thousands of hours in troubleshooting time, increasing ROI, and reducting costs.
4. All judges, lawyers, DA's, politicians et al. would be subject to a PC proficiency test before engaging in any case or making any legislation involving PCs, Internet, and technology in general.
5. If you were smart enough to pass the proficiency test above and opted to buy a Mac, you should also be smart enough to realize that only about 5% of computer users have Macs, and fix it yourself.
5a. If you have an old Mac, you'd be forced to upgrade to OSX or be incarcerated and read Bill Gates' "The Road Ahead" 5 times over.
6. Learn that you'll need to contact different technical support lines, just like we need different doctors. Netopia tech support won't be able to do squat about replacing your Seagate hard drive.
7. Users would be humble, regardless of how many years of experience, Ph.D's, and IT certs they possess, and never assume they know more than the tech reps. If they did, they wouldn't be calling to begin with.
8. Users would not threaten to switch to another brand, cancel service, return equipment etc. hoping to scare techs. Techs are not salespeople. Techs get paid by the hour and could care less about what you do with your PC.
9. Users would be happy to be put on hold, because there are real reasons that techs do so. A tech who keeps customers on hold for too long is frowned upon by management big time. Everyone in a call center strives to keep hold times short.
10. Finally, users would understand that arguing with a tech is like mud wrestling with a pig. After a while, you realize the pig actually enjoys it.
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SBC DSL Tech Support. | |
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| | | biobob
join:2003-09-04
Bayside, NY | Re: Go figure... HAHA! Thats good stuff. I work in tech support, and I agree completly! | |
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PinkySuavo
join:2001-08-23 | Haha! You'll be out of a job then ;o | |
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| | x____
join:2003-02-13
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clubs:
| Not only is it annoying but it can stop the PC from working.
I had several calls from users who could not access the Internet anymore. Tried several browsers and none would work but they would ping to IPs. No FTP no Telnet, no HTTP.
DNS was working and they had proper IPs.
Reinstalled the first PC like that because it was the only way I could get it to work.
I was finally able to find out the problem though.
A registry key that was supposed to point to Wsock32 was pointing to newdotnet.dll
If anyone is interested, I'll dig up the exact location of the key. I exported the reg key to a file that's on another hard drive. | |
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dav0r
translate
Premium
join:2003-06-15
Albertville, MN
 ·Charter Pipeline
·Embarq
| I can help I can define it for them quickly. Just give me a fat pipe, access to one of the 'legislator's' PCs, no firewall or AV and let me click away and sign active-x controls for an hour or two. Then I'll give the PC back to them and see if they can *-ing define it. I'll also let them know that they can't use AdAware6 or SpyBot to remove the problems since those haven't properly been defined yet... Maybe for complicated issues there should be a panel of representatives from mutltiple companies that passes legislation instead of traditional courts? I'd feel much better about that sort of solution if they're not up to it. This would, of course, be government funded due to their ineptitude.
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Ever met someone from Microsoft Q/A? ...EXACTLY! | |
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damonlab
Premium
join:2001-05-02
Detroit, MI
clubs: | Spyware defined.... Anything produced by doubleclick, gator, or cydoor. | |
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Dagda1175
join:2001-06-17
Goleta, CA |  Re: Spyware defined....
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jtudor
Xm 60's On 6 Freak
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-07
Morganton, NC
| Re: Spyware defined.... said by Dagda1175  :
Careful, gator will sue you for saying that!
Let 'em sue Congress and see how far they get!!
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Best of luck
"Do, or Do not, there is no try!" Yoda | |
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Anti_Cyrix
Premium
join:2003-03-06
Sacramento, CA | Re: Spyware defined.... I wonder whose shoulder Gator is going to cry on after congress defines them as spyware.
said by Martin Lawrence:
You wanna cry on somebodies shoulder? Go cry on SuperDick!
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edbo245
Premium
join:2003-03-22
Wickliffe, OH
clubs: | Careful, gator will sue you for saying that!
___________________________________________________________
Lol | |
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Stewy85
Premium
join:2003-01-16
Sharon, WI
clubs:
| I agree. | |
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averagedude
join:2002-01-30
Mesa, AZ
·Cox HSI
| Know it when I see it Didn't a famous person once say something to the effect of - I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.
Isn't this similar?
Are we not all held hostage by EULA? Example, we don't own what we just purchased - thus enforcing the ability to "spy" legally.
What about bundling something we want with something we don't want. Here are a couple of samples to fix first:
How about breaking each one out.
Change all legal text in to simple English.
No reporting back to a "server" with out expressed consent.
No automatic op-in. | |
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| petecellar
join:2002-10-15
Philadelphia, PA
| Re: Know it when I see it said by averagedude :
Change all legal text in to simple English.
No reporting back to a "server" with out expressed consent.
No automatic op-in.
I like that criteria.
My sentiments exactly. | |
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| | koveman
join:2002-01-23
Phoenix, AZ
| Re: Know it when I see it All software should also be required to have a complete working uninstall routine. This should scrub the registry, install folder and any related files or cookies. Legitimate software companies should have no problem with that. I'm particularly miffed by what these programs do to the registry. Complete cleanup takes forever if done manually. The second I click uninstall I want that software to be dead. | |
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Minvaren
Premium
join:2001-07-26
Houston, TX
clubs: | Re: Know it when I see it quote:
I'm particularly miffed by what these programs do to the registry. Complete cleanup takes forever if done manually.
Ever tried to uninstall a Symantec product, or MS Office? Hoooo-boy. | |
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| | | dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by koveman :
All software should also be required to have a complete working uninstall routine.
So it'd be illegal to give away software unless it (a) had an uninstall routine, (b) had no bugs in the uninstall routine?
Requirement (a) would prevent me from running a whole bunch of useful utilities, for example from these guys who write top-notch code. Unfortunately it doesn't come with either an install or uninstall routine. I don't care, but you're proposing to make them into criminals? | |
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| | | | averagedude
join:2002-01-30
Mesa, AZ
1 edit | Re: Know it when I see it Obviously, NO. "These guys" are up front about what their stuff is. What I think they are talking about is clandestine, covert, deceptive, and malicious coding, NOT the stuff that "these guys" are producing.
By the way, great link! | |
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applelover
Premium
join:2002-04-15
Commerce City, CO
| Re: Know it when I see it said by flex5e :
Two buttons saying:
"Do you wish to install gator? YES or NO"
Better yet.
Two buttons saying:
NO and HELL NO
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Keep it pithy, if you wish to opine. | |
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| dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
·Verizon Online DSL
| The challenge, of course, is to write a law that can appropriately distinguish between good guys and bad guys.
When getting software from the likes of sysinternals, you'll probably read something somewhere that says you're willingly assuming the risk.
When getting software from scumbags, you'll probably find there's an equivalent 'I agree' button somewhere.
The difference, of course, is intent - the scum try to hide knowledge of what you're agreeing to. But intent is tricky to codify. | |
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gruggni
Oxygen Gets You High
join:2003-07-28
Corpus Christi, TX
| what's inside the code? Do you trust Microsoft enough not to slip in any tracking code into their outlook or office package software? Spyware can hide in major applications without the consumer knowing it.
The reality is, if some form of software is accused of being spyware, the only way to verify is to look at behavior or the actual code. Now let's say, a software package written by microsoft is accused of being spyware. How will the legal system go about viewing the code protected by other laws? Now is the time for the DMCA to shine before going nova. It's against the law to crack or reverse engineer licensed or patented software. So how will legislation be written to bypass the DMCA. How will the courts go about verifying software in the event of slander? I think the bad laws already written will finally be noticed, as bad.
Not to start a panic but this hidden-ware thing has been going on for years.
The infamous "Easter Eggs" hidden in software; the software we buy has hidden code for hidden uses.
Back-doors in pgp software so the NSA can sneak in. The USA sneaks things into certain technologies that are for the purpose of national security. Homing chips were put into computer processors sent to Iraq before the 1991 war.
Software written for the sole purpose of spying or collecting data without the user's consent is considered spyware.
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When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading. --Henny Youngman | |
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Spore Cloud
I H8 Computers
join:2001-09-09
Burleson, TX
| A good definition. Spyware is a program or program code that logs what a person does on a computer without the users consent and/or knowledge and has the primary purpose of directed advertisement and/or consumer research and/or zombification of the affected host.
A zombified computer awaits commands by its controller/s, the one/s that are/is responsible for the program or program code that affected the host computer and turned it to the zombie state.
Do they need a better definition than that? It works, well I think. | |
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Affliction
@bc.ca | How's this sound: Spyware: software that does anything that it is not advertised, in big, visible, non-fine-print text, to do. (Precision Time and Date Manager, anyone?)
Software that collects any information located on the user's computer without asking. | |
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Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
·Qwest.net
| This is how it should be done.Sorry this thread is about Spyware. However this spam filter is to good to delete.
I am running Spamnet (beta) with outlook express this is the best spam filter I have ever used. It goes by the premise people out there know what spam is. Every one who runs this software contributes to the data base. It works smoothly with Outlook Express. below is the link, give it a try and see what you think.
»www.cloudmark.com/products/spamnet/
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I love Irish Terriers, Low Brass, and the electric blue glow of an 866 mercury vapor rectifier tube at night. | |
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mr_slick
join:2003-05-22
Lynnwood, WA |  Never Stopped Them Before!!
That didn't stop all the other vague laws from being passed (DMCA, Patriot, etc...)
Our founding fathers are rolling in their graves. | |
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bolt
Former Broadband Exile
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Charlestown, IN
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| Re: Never Stopped Them Before!! I understand that they've mounted a big magnet to Jefferson's boots so that he can create electricity as he spins in his grave. The amount of electricity generated in a a day is expected to be enough to power Las Vegas.
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bolthttp://www.boltweb.com | |
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major marco
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA
clubs:
| You Are For Sale Despite Spyware Laws Spyware is the least of our troubles with regard to privacy safeguards. While the industry is blowing smoke & otherwise distracting everyone with trying to define what constitutes 'spyware,' the feds have been busy receiving payoffs from Big Bu$ine$$ so they'll create legislation to overrule various state privacy laws.
Privacy laws that were crafted at the state level specifically so your insurance company which merged with your bank which merged with your supermarket which merged with your car dealership aren't all sharing information with each other compiling complete personal dossiers on every single one of us. When you look at all of the personal data being shared, bought, sold back & forth, spyware is really just a drop in the bucket.
»moneycentral.msn.com/content/Ban···0562.asp
»www.privacy.org/archives/001098.html
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MoveOn.org -DigitalConsumer.org - FTCR.org | |
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| dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: You Are For Sale Despite Spyware Laws Right. Spyware is just a side-show. It's easy enough to protect yourself against it (for example, by not installing every bit of crap software that you see). Try protecting yourself from the wholesale, legally-approved theft of personal data though.
Data privacy laws now! | |
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GeneStarwind
join:2001-12-13
Fairfax, VA
| Maybe.. When informed that this software is about to be installed on the user's computer, they should be fully aware of the software's primary function(s) within 10 seconds of reading the said notice. Software which does not do the above, or does any of the following without the user's full knowledge and discretion could fall into the category of spyware/malware:
- Installing itself on the user's computer
- Causing ads (pop-up or otherwise) other than those native to the current site to appear
- Creating various toolbars in I.E
- Relaying any one or more of the following to any 3rd-party host: e-mail, name, phone number, address | |
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MortySnerd
join:2001-07-26
Mclean, VA
| Why can't Norton handle this I really wish Norton would just step up and include gator, fat man, precision time clock, etc in its virus definitions. They crash more computers at my job than any virus ever has. We've had computers that were infected with Welchia that were more stable than those that were running fat man!
(If you haven't seen it, Fat Man is just bonzi buddy repackaged)
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This light dinner is over. | |
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reub2000
Premium
join:2001-12-28
Evanston, IL | The solution to all of the internets problems. Educating the masses is the solutions to all of the Internets problems. These spyware writters are going to go over seas. Only by informing people about the hidden stuff in freeware are we going to get rid of the problem. | |
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russotto
join:2000-10-05
Collegeville, PA
| Legislation is a blunt instrument... and spyware needs to be eviscerated with a sharp knife. Pass a law against spyware and shareware developers who write software which automatically reads your email address for some legitimate purpose will end up in jail while well-connected spyware developers will be protected. | |
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BingoBingo
@shawcable.net | Re: Legislation is a blunt instrument...
BingoBingo. | |
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BingoBingo
@shawcable.net | Re: Legislation is a blunt instrument...
End quote.
Define user or " surfer ", intent.
Define the antithesis of this as spyware.
BingoBingo. | |
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Defining Spyware
