Hostage NegotiationsSwap to Clec phone service, lose your bell DSL ( old news - 03:53PM Monday Oct 27 2003) tags: dsl · competition The debate continues over telcos who prevent users from switching to a local voice competitor if they want DSL. Many existing bell DSL customers who do make the switch to a competing phone service get their DSL lines disconnected, sometimes before the actual switch even occurs. Customers also often aren't informed that their DSL line will be terminated if they change local providers. When they call to complain, they're told they can restore their DSL line once they switch their local service back. One customer in Georgia switched to MCI local service and lost her Earthlink DSL connection (provided via BellSouth) without warning. When she cancelled local service and switched back, BellSouth connected her to their own DSL service with a $200 fee. She eventually restored her original Earthlink service and obtained a refund, but not without a scuffle. Bell competitors charge that the hassle-ridden tactic is akin to holding a customer hostage; the bells suggest that the affected customers can usually get DSL via the same CLEC offering them local service. Sometimes the bells suggest providing DSL in conjunction with CLEC DSL is technically impossible, often they've suggested it wasn't legal. Both defenses have received ample criticism by users in our forums. In certain portions of Northern California, where 18 percent of the populace has DSL, none could have gotten it without having SBC as their local phone carrier. Competitors charge that the problem is related to telco policy, and isn't a technical or legal issue. "It's not a technical problem," recently opined Ken McNeely, president of AT&T in California. "It's a policy decision by SBC (and others) that should rightly be scrutinized. It is clearly anticompetitive."According to a story from the print edition of the Wall Street journal earlier this year, one customer who complained to SBC about the tactic was told "that for technical reasons, (we) can't provide DSL service to customers who change their local voice-calling service from the carrier."SBC argues that the Clecs could easily provide the DSL service themselves. "If AT&T (or MCI) wanted to provide their new dial-tone customer with DSL, they could do so," recently noted SBC spokesman John Britton. "In fact, one would think they would be eager to generate more revenue from the access line they just won over."The debate has been particularly heated between BellSouth and MCI, who have been engaged in a 16 month legal battle over the issue in several states. In each instance BellSouth suggests DSL is simply an added phone service that should be bundled, while MCI, like AT&T, suggests the tactic is anti-competitive. In some states like Louisiana, state regulators have ruled that such a tactic won't be tolerated. In a 3-1 vote last December, the Louisiana Public Service Commission ordered BellSouth to keep providing DSL service, regardless of who customers wanted as their phone provider. The decision has caught the eye of other states, who have been bombarded with considerable complaints by DSL users confused by the sudden disconnects. Instead of accepting the ruling and changing their tactics, BellSouth executives decided to threaten the state, saying they'd cease rural community DSL deployments; BellSouth's Louisiana President William Oliver warning at the time that BellSouth would "halt investment in its high-speed Internet network if the ruling is not changed." So far, that tactic hasn't worked, and additional states are following Louisiana's lead. Last week the Georgia Public Service Commission voted 3-2 to force BellSouth to provide DSL to Georgia consumers who switch local phone providers (See Atlanta Journal Constitution article). BellSouth lawyers attempted to argue that their DSL service is simply another feature, like MCI's Friends and Families calling plan. Not everyone had sympathy for the competitors, one dissenter at the PSC likening the Clec competitors to "parasites". BellSouth's lawyers hope to take the issue to the federal courts to decide. Related:- Verizon Again Threatens Massachusetts Investment
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- Canadian Regulators Send Another Love Letter To Bell Canada
- Sonic.net Drops Prices On ADSL2+ Service
- Frontier To Inherit Some Very Shoddy Verizon Copper
- Verizon CEO Admits Landlines Are Dead
- What Network Neutrality Is REALLY About
- FCC To Investigate Special Access Pricing
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 lesopp
join:2001-06-27 Land O Lakes, FL
| Whats the difference... between this and what MS was doing with IE?
I think it time for a good old fashioned monopoly whoopin by the courts.
Three years ago when I moved my voice line went dead on the scheduled day three days before the actual move. I still had DSL service for those three days, the DSL service wasn't cancelled until after I moved and called to have it cancelled.
For me the big question is why does it have to be tied to phone service at all? [text was edited by author 2003-10-27 15:38:02] | |
|  |   oliphant5 Got Identity? Premium join:2003-05-24 Corona, CA
| Re: Whats the difference... Because Microsoft didn't remove functionality of their software (it just broke on its own ) if you installed Mozilla or Opera.
This is the whining telco babies taking their xDSL ball and going home if you don't bend over for their crappy service and high prices. -- -- Munis Killed the Telco Star -- Powered by Barry McKockenner Racing in association with Jack Mikkokov Motorsports | |
|  |  |   avantare Go Tribe
join:2000-02-16 Farmington, MI
| Re: Whats the difference...
I wholeheartedly agree. I have Supra Telecom as my carrier and DSLi as my ISP. Recently Supra has sent notice they are adding a $20 'surcharge' to the phone bill. I recieved a notice of the increase as well and will deduct the $20 fee from my phone bill until this is resolved. However, I wonder if I do deduct the fee if Supra will 'cut me off' due to non-payment and then I'm stuck with no POTS and xDSL.
»Supra Raising Rates for DSL Customers
Chuck | |
|  |  |   BELLSUX
@optonline.net
| I thought they broke up the baby bells now its just one big VERIZON. I hate these anti-competitive moves by these companies. No wonder they go bankrupt because they piss off the people that matter (THE CUSTOMERS). I feel same with cablevision which has very bad service and their CAPPING tactic is so unorthodox and i would think its illegal. They tell me i can't upload a lot but won't define a lot. Oh well thats the kind of country we live in. I heard people in Europe have T1 - T3 speed for roughly the same amound we pay for slow dsl. FCC take notice and change the policy. | |
|   IronChefMoto Premium join:2001-02-08 Alpharetta, GA
| Same thing happened to friend of mine A buddy of mine recently tried to switch from BellSouth local service in north Atlanta to another CLEC (no-name-brand) local service. He wanted to keep his BellSouth FastAccess DSL. He was told that he could if he switched to the CLEC. So, he did, BellSouth cut him off of their DSL, and he was without DSL for about a week. Eventually, he was told that, without several weeks and several faxes of signed documentation, he would not be able to use BellSouth FastAccess DSL with the new CLEC local service.
He's now paying, again, the same amount for his BellSouth local service that he would've paid for a CLEC that offered ALL the land line bells and whistles. At least he has his DSL back. It's a shame that the PSC here in Georgia didn't require the "dead wire" setup option for people who just want DSL and NO local phone service -- ILEC or CLEC. I'm not even sure that's technically possible. Someone chime in.
IronChefMorimoto -- Desktop: Abit NF7-S 2.0 | AMD AthlonXP 2500+ | 512MB PC2100 DDR | 128MB ATI Radeon 9500 Pro Laptop: Dell Latitude C810 | Intel PIII-M | 512MB PC133 SDRAM | 32MB Nvidia GeForce2 Go | |
|  |  liquidlght Premium join:2002-09-16 Saint Louis, MO
| Re: Same thing happened to friend of mine
while it's not technically impossible to run dsl without pots(dailtone) it does defeat one of the reasons for adsl over anyother xdsl. it saves on copperpairs in the field.
while you may say so, which would you like the bells to invest in more copper for unbundled adsl or fiber(you know it has to happen sooner or later)
also it is possible (from a wiring standpoint) to bundle adsl to almost any switch from any clec. the problem is more billing related and the record nightmare. it's bad enough now only resaling the isp side of the it.
also for rt base adsl to seprate the dsl from the pots still holds the pots port on the card limiting the number of lines avalible (maybe where the technically part comes in)
sorry about the spelling | |
|   oliphant5 Got Identity? Premium join:2003-05-24 Corona, CA
| Typical Telco market manipulation This is no different than Comcast's crap charging a penalty for those who have the nerve to buy HSI without their blessed CATV.
This is nothing more than abusing their market position to force people to take products they don't want.
If their voice products were so great (which obviously they aren't) they would sell themselves. But since POTS sucks royal, they have to blackmail customers into paying for their overpriced crap.
Their voice products should be sold on its merit, not because they're holding users DSL lines hostage. -- -- Munis Killed the Telco Star -- Powered by Barry McKockenner Racing in association with Jack Mikkokov Motorsports | |
|  |  scott492002
join:2003-10-27
| Re: Typical Telco market manipulation When was the last time any clec invested any money in the dsl network? As far as I'm concerned clecs are the parasite that was mentioned earlier. What other company subsidises (sp) their competitors? Would GM subsidise Yugo for example? I think not. Let the clecs buy their own dsl equip and quit sucking the life out of the bell companies. | |
|  |  |   oliphant5 Got Identity? Premium join:2003-05-24 Corona, CA
| Re: Typical Telco market manipulation What are you talking about? THEY PAY FOR THE ACCESS. Do you not watch cable? You don't see competitors channels being broadcast by the cable operators? What, is Cox Communications and Time Warner subsidizing Comcast because they carry the Comcast owned E! Entertainment Network?
What, is Fedex subsidizing the US Postal Service because the USPS uses Fedex planes to deliver air cargo?
What nonsense. -- -- Munis Killed the Telco Star -- Powered by Barry McKockenner Racing in association with Jack Mikkokov Motorsports [text was edited by author 2003-10-27 16:17:39] | |
|  |  |  |  pyro_527
join:2002-05-05 Palatka, FL
| Re: Typical Telco market manipulation So, what you are saying is that clec ABC leases the lines from BellSouth but it is BellSouth\'s responsibility to put DSL service to their customer? Please....If they lease the line then it is their problem.....but, I do think that the ILEC\'s would want to provide service and at least make some of the revenue that they would have lost otherwise. Line sharing isn't something that is new to the industry. The technology has been there but never been taken advantage of. -- Spandex - it's a privilege not a right.... | |
|  |  |  |  |   oliphant5 Got Identity? Premium join:2003-05-24 Corona, CA
| Re: Typical Telco market manipulation No, it's that line sharing is the current rules and has nothing to do with telcos forcing customers to keep local service with the crappy telco in order to obtain DSL.
One has NOTHING to do with the other. They are losing customers to competitors in voice service so like Comcast, they come up with this blackmail scheme. It's crap. -- -- Munis Killed the Telco Star -- Powered by Barry McKockenner Racing in association with Jack Mikkokov Motorsports | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  pyro_527
join:2002-05-05 Palatka, FL
| Re: Typical Telco market manipulation So, you are going to go to Walmart and demand that they make Kmart open up 5 packages of underwear so you can buy a package of all red rather then having to get what you get when you buy the package. -- Spandex - it's a privilege not a right.... | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   oliphant5 Got Identity? Premium join:2003-05-24 Corona, CA
| Re: Typical Telco market manipulation said by pyro_527 : So, you are going to go to Walmart and demand that they make Kmart open up 5 packages of underwear so you can buy a package of all red rather then having to get what you get when you buy the package.
This isn't about picking and choosing colors. This would be like you wanted to buy underwear at Walmart and Walmart forcing you to also buy overpriced socks at the same time. If you didn't want the socks, too bad, you can't buy underwear.
It doesn't fly in retail and it shouldn't fly with the telco monopolies. -- -- Munis Killed the Telco Star -- Powered by Barry McKockenner Racing in association with Jack Mikkokov Motorsports [text was edited by author 2003-10-28 11:12:32] | |
|  |  |  fkittred
join:2002-01-24 Biddeford, ME | Many DSL providers buy all the equipment. Please update your information.
regards, fletcher | |
|  |  |  Cybertoad
join:2001-11-08 Houston, TX
| said by scott492002 : When was the last time any clec invested any money in the dsl network? As far as I'm concerned clecs are the parasite that was mentioned earlier. What other company subsidises (sp) their competitors? Would GM subsidise Yugo for example? I think not. Let the clecs buy their own dsl equip and quit sucking the life out of the bell companies.
You do realize that is MORE a reason for SBC, BellSouth, and others to provide dry DSL runs !!!
Give customers and option to buy their DSL direct from the source even if their phone service is elsewhere.
I would think the Bells would be anxious to tap an otherwise untapped market getting those who aren't interested in phone service but want DSL. At the present, that market is totally lost. | |
|  |  cuindy
join:2000-07-21 Aurora, OH
| said by oliphant5 : This is no different than Comcast's crap charging a penalty for those who have the nerve to buy HSI without their blessed CATV.
There is a big difference between Comcast and Telco Policy Comcast just charges you extra $15.00 Dollars and you can still get a DISH. The Telcos are telling you CAN NOT get DSL from anyone else unless you have a $25-40 phone line from them which you may not want, if you go cellular or VOIP. Plus, if you have Talk America like I have, you can not get DSL from anyone. Thank God I can get Comcast HSI. The Telco policy is based on making you keep the ILEC as your local phone carrier. If they can provide third party DSL on their voice line, then why can not they provide DSL on a third party voice line. They control the local loop no matter who you have for what. The only reason I can figure is they want all the buck for the local loop and not just a small rental charge on the local loop. | |
|  |  |  pyro_527
join:2002-05-05 Palatka, FL
| Re: Typical Telco market manipulation "There is a big difference between Comcast and Telco Policy Comcast just charges you extra $15.00 Dollars and you can still get a DISH." First of all, this is just wrong. I shouldn't have to pay more money to have less service.
"The Telcos are telling you CAN NOT get DSL from anyone else unless you have a $25-40 phone line from them which you may not want, if you go cellular or VOIP." No, what they are saying is if you want their service then you need to be their customer. Let me ask you this, with your car insurance, do you get pip coverage from one company and liability from another?
"The Telco policy is based on making you keep the ILEC as your local phone carrier. If they can provide third party DSL on their voice line, then why can not they provide DSL on a third party voice line." They can and the technology is there. It is called line sharing. I agree that they should want to do this to at least get some of the pie rather than none but, they shouldn't be forced to do so. It is not their responsibility to subsidize every other company in the market.
"They control the local loop no matter who you have for what. The only reason I can figure is they want all the buck for the local loop and not just a small rental charge on the local loop." BellSouth doesn't control the loop, they own it and maintain it. The CLEC can put anything they want on the pair as the telephone police are not going to be monitoring every little thing they do. But, I understand that everyone thinks it is all the ILEC's fault that the CLEC's don't want to invest in their own equipment to provide DSL service. Why should they invest within themselves and be that much stronger and more profitable company when they can just pressure the government to force the ILEC's to do it for them. Realistically, if there is that much of a demand from their customers for this service then why not provide it themselves? When you look at it, both the CLEC's and the ILEC's are turning money away because neither one wants to provide the service. And like always, we the consumers get screwed. -- Spandex - it's a privilege not a right.... | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  pyro_527
join:2002-05-05 Palatka, FL
| Re: Typical Telco market manipulation I do know that BellSouth does have numerous co's that have clec dslams in them. I do agree that SBC is wrong to limit what the clec can put in the space that they lease. I know that there are some co's here where the clec's have not put any equipment in just because of the area. The town I live in has no clec providers for service. It's BellSouth or nothing. I personally have the cellphone/cable combo. Especially since my cable is 3 times as fast as the DSL on average. -- Spandex - it's a privilege not a right.... | |
|  |  |  |  |  liquidlght Premium join:2002-09-16 Saint Louis, MO | sorry your wrong about sbc , i know for sure ip communication and covad have their own dslams in sbc areas around st louis, and must in other areas as well , unless you think covad is building their own co's all over for coverage | |
|  |  |  |  |   boogie74
join:2001-06-19 Neenah, WI clubs:
| said by eak : the problem with your assumed scenario is that, as is the case in most SBC CO's, SBC will not allow any other competitor to install DSL equipment, thus creating the anti-competitve situation. I can get a non-SBC telco to provide POTS out of my CO but the only provider who can provide DSL out of my CO is SBC. I have no choice but to purchase SBC POTS and DSL to get DSL out of my CO.
Ummmm... not quite. That would be a violation of sec 271 which specifically details the requirements of co-location. The problem at hand is simply that CLECs who use UNE-P don't want to offer DSL because it would make them ineligible for UNE-P pricing. DSLAMs don't fall under the definition of UNE-P network elements.
So the choice for the CLEC is this- offer DSL and pay higher rates for wholesale lines, pay for co-location, hire technicians to work in the CO's and outside the CO's to offer it (along with being required to invest money in providing service to begin with) or pay lower rates with UNE-P and just refuse to offer DSL...
They then tell you that SBC won't let them offer DSL- as they'd LOVE to give you a reason to hate SBC anyways. SBC technically could offer DSL over a dry unbundled loop. This isn't required for SBC to do, however, and quite frankly, it isn't up to you or regulators to try to force them to offer it.
Here's another trip that will really bake your noodle- if you want SBC voice mail, you HAVE to have a POTS line with them too. Oh- they offer a stand alone version that doesn't ring anywhere but the mailbox itself- but you've got to have POTS service to get that too! MCI doesn't offer VMS service. When people switch from SBC to MCI, they complain that their voicemail isn't working. Now why is THAT not anti-competitive in your eyes? MCI sure COULD offer voicemail- but they don't.
Is this SBC's fault? No- MCI just doesn't want to invest in a voicemail contract with another provider. That would mean more employees and extra cost. Voicemail, remember, isn't a required network element that falls under UNE-P either.
See the pattern yet?
Boogie | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   oliphant5 Got Identity? Premium join:2003-05-24 Corona, CA
| Re: Typical Telco market manipulation said by boogie74 :
See the pattern yet?
Boogie
Yep, you're a telco shill through and through. -- -- Munis Killed the Telco Star -- Powered by Barry McKockenner Racing in association with Jack Mikkokov Motorsports | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  pyro_527
join:2002-05-05 Palatka, FL
| Re: Typical Telco market manipulation Why is it when someone backs the ILEC on something after looking at the big picture that someone has to come in and start calling names. The reality is that both the ILECs and the CLECs are out to screw each other and at any means possible. What this ultimately means is that all of us consumers have to put up with the crap that comes down the pipeline. What people fail to realize is that they are complaining that they want DSL service and they want it at a lower price. They want one company to provide it where another one doesn't. Well, you know what? I want to win the lottery so you should buy me the winning ticket. It seems that people are demanding a luxury item. You don't need DSL to live. Yes, there are people that make their living on the net but for the average person that wants their high speed connection to play games, surf the web, check email, pirate software, music and movies could live without internet. If they didn't have it they would find something else to do with their time. Everyone is entitled to their opinion of the phone company of their choosing. My opinion is simple. They all suck - clecs and ilecs alike. The grass may be greener on the other side of the fence but, you still have to mow it.... -- Spandex - it's a privilege not a right.... | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   oliphant5 Got Identity? Premium join:2003-05-24 Corona, CA
| Re: Typical Telco market manipulation No it's when they mindlessly defend the telcos no matter how much evidence is presented countering their claims. They choose to ignore it and move on to the next red herring just to be shot down again...and again...and again. Boogie74 has a LONG history of this nonsense even going so far as to claim that telcos don't take price increases.
It's one thing to feel that ILECs shouldn't have to complete, but to defend them no matter how wrong they are is shilling. I'm favorable to cable companies, but there are no shortage of posts from me complaining about bundling penalties, lack of content competition and price hikes. In fact the topic of this thread (which I started) BEGINS with a slam of my cable provider Comcast, whom I'm very content with. I like Comcast, but I don't hesitate to slam them when I think they're doing wrong by their customers. The same goes for VoIP. I love my Vonage service, but when they started up with the junk fees, not only did I bitch about it here, I cancelled virtual numbers and my fax line over it. I'm also bashing them about 911 faults. That's objectivity.
You can be telco leaning without being a shill so long as the person acknowledges when market manipulation and anti-competitive trade practices occur.
But if you sit there and make claims like they never take price increases, don't take money from the gov't to build infrastructure or other wild claims and just shill for them no matter how wrong they are or how ever much they screw over customers...well...I'm going to call them a shill 'cause that's what they are.
It's about objectivity...and shills like Boogie have none. -- -- Munis Killed the Telco Star -- Powered by Barry McKockenner Racing in association with Jack Mikkokov Motorsports [text was edited by author 2003-10-29 11:10:30] | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  pyro_527
join:2002-05-05 Palatka, FL
| Re: Typical Telco market manipulation I see your point and it is very reasonable to me. I just don't want to get wrapped up with the same tag on that. I do think that both the ilecs and the clecs are wrong on different levels about different things. I personally dis-like all the phone companies because they make my life miserable everyday in some form or fashion. But, until something better comes along and someone else starts to sign my paycheck then I will do what I have to to survive. I have had the unique position to see quite a bit in the wholesale market and have had the opportunity to see a lot of things behind the scenes. Now, do I think there should be competition amongst the companies? Very much so. That is in the best interest of the consumer. I do think that the ilecs should have to lease out facilities as it would just clutter the market if everyone had to place their own out there. Should an ilec be forced to provide a service in an area to an end user that does not have service with them? No, they shouldn't be forced. But, they should be willing to do so so they can make some money off of the service they spent so much to install rather then just leave it sitting there. I don't think there should be a penalty from telco's or cable co's alike if you subscribe to data and not pots/standard tv. If I buy a car from Ford/Chevy/Nissan or whoever, the car is the same price if I take the extended warranty or not. If I ran the phone company, the products I offer would be available to everyone that is within the specifications for that service regardless of whether or not they have phone service thru my company or someone else. I don't make money on my product if it stops at the dslam/xbox. -- Spandex - it's a privilege not a right.... | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   oliphant5 Got Identity? Premium join:2003-05-24 Corona, CA
| Re: Typical Telco market manipulation I think we agree on many things. But I approach it this way. Should telcos be forced to deploy? No, but they shouldn't then be permitted to sue a muni (like CenturyTel did) when they do deploy in their stead. Do I think there would be bundling requirements for unrelated services? No, it's anti-competitive and it abuses their market position in one industry (ISP) to affect another (POTS). This is no different that what Microsoft got busted for. To me, voice and data are two completely separate services. It's not like voice-mail and voice where there is an obvious requirement to have voice service before you can get caller ID or voice-mail from them. I'm also of the mind that the way to level the playing field isn't to kill off the clecs, but force cable competitors to do the same, open their lines to content competition like Time Warner does. Both Comcast and Time Warner do it in select markets and if they want to continue getting franchise rights, municipalities should force them to open their infrastructure to content competition. I also think the cable bundling is bull crap. You should have to pay $15 more for one service when you don't want another? No way. Comcast is a C.I.P. You pay the $15 penalty if you want HSI and no CATV, but there is no such penalty if you want CATV but not HSI. That to me is crap. It's not about saving money by getting more services since it obviously doesn't work in both directions. It's about Comcast abusing their market position in HSI to compete against satellite with their often substandard and more often overpriced CATV services.
So long as telcos take money from the government and are granted these monopoly rights and easements, then they should have to follow the rules which include those which curb anti-competitive behavior like forcing someone to buy an unrelated service (local toll service) in order to get a completely different service (ADSL). -- -- Munis Killed the Telco Star -- Powered by Barry McKockenner Racing in association with Jack Mikkokov Motorsports [text was edited by author 2003-10-29 11:56:45] | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   lec engr
@frontiercorp.com
| Ummmm... not quite. That would be a violation of sec 271 which specifically details the requirements of co-location. The problem at hand is simply that CLECs who use UNE-P don't want to offer DSL because it would make them ineligible for UNE-P pricing. DSLAMs don't fall under the definition of UNE-P network elements.
Ummmm... not quite. One of the Unbundled Network Elements is the loop. If a DSL provider wants to collo a DSLAM in the CO, they, by law, do have access to the unbundled loops.
If the voice CLEC is using UNE switching - there is no additional equipment! SBC is providing the service.... There is no technical reason that SBC cant provide DSL on that loop. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   boogie74
join:2001-06-19 Neenah, WI clubs:
| Re: Typical Telco market manipulation quote: If the voice CLEC is using UNE switching - there is no additional equipment! SBC is providing the service.... There is no technical reason that SBC cant provide DSL on that loop.
There is a BIG reason SBC can't provide DSL on that loop- the CLEC "owns" it when it's in use wholesale- and that means that the entire spectrum of possible usage is off limits to SBC. SBC isn't allowed to offer ANYTHING to the end retail customer using that loop. SBC techs aren't even allowed to enter the premises to do internal wiring for CLEC customers.
SBC is required to offer unbundled network elements to CLECs. CLECs aren't required to offer the same back to SBC. SBC can't even ASK for it. SBC isn't allowed to "know" what the loop is used for- whether it be for POTS service or an alarm circuit or whatever the CLEC is using it for.
SBC's retail divisions aren't allowed to know what facilities a CLEC is using and what they're being used for- ESPECIALLY for the purpose of selling the retail end user a service. The CLEC leases the facilities and "brands" them as its own. SBC isn't allowed to know ANYTHING more than what the CLEC is leasing wholesale- and that info is limited to a wholesale division.
To make things more complicated, ASI (the data "company" that SBC uses to offer broadband) is not the same company as SBC- it's a wholly owned subsidiary (as per requirements for the SBC-Ameritech merger). ASI has separate books, employees, directors, officers and payroll from SBC. This means that since SBC (the LEC) can't legally "know" what a CLEC is selling to the end user, they SURE as all hell can't tell ASI so that ASI can provision DSL on the loop.
But then again, as Karl Bode says, "this argument was heavily disputed by the visitors to this forum." Don't mind me while I laugh at the "expert" disputes from those that frequent BBR. They'll tell you that GRAVITY is a ploy by the ILECs to get people to drop spare change!
Boogie | |
|  youngmoore
join:2001-03-16 Marietta, GA
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| lets see here "Instead of accepting the ruling and changing their tactics, BellSouth executives decided to threaten the state, saying they'd cease rural community DSL deployments; BellSouth's Louisiana President William Oliver warning at the time that BellSouth would "halt investment in its high-speed Internet network if the ruling is not changed."
Instead of just the custmore being held hostage it sounds like Bellsouth wants to the state/states hostage.
Alot of people don't want a dial tone period. Maybe they have a cell phone or VOIP,, all this from bellsouth just makes them look worse and worse.
ym | |
|  |   oliphant5 Got Identity? Premium join:2003-05-24 Corona, CA
| Re: lets see here Yep and let them start returning the RUS money they've been collecting over the years, along with the back interest difference from their subsidized loans and while they're at it they can give back the grant money too. -- -- Munis Killed the Telco Star -- Powered by Barry McKockenner Racing in association with Jack Mikkokov Motorsports | |
|   visio
join:2001-08-29 Clifton, NJ
| Competition Dont get me wrong, im all for competition, but i dont believe that if a company has invested so much of their own time and money into a technology, I dont see why they should be forced to share it. As well, the company DOES have a right as to who can and can't use their services. | |
|  |  See 6 replies to this post | |
  matt380 Dangit, Bobby. Premium join:2002-06-12 Kennesaw, GA clubs:
| DSL vs. Cable summed up. The above mentioned is the only reason i still have cable and not DSL. I do not desire to have a home tellephone number as my cell phone provides everything i need. I would prefer DSL due to congested cable networks in my area. But, to have DSL, I would have to have the most basic telephone package which is $30 a month. I'd rather save the $30 and deal with the slow connects in the afternoons.
I hope things will change someday and you can purchase DSL seperate from phone service. then, DSL, here I come!! | |
|  |  See 15 replies to this post | |
 |  |  |   boogie74
join:2001-06-19 Neenah, WI clubs:
| Re: The Bundling Arguement quote: This SBC issue goes just a step further. If you don't have service A then you can't get service B. If you change service A then service B gets cut off. I feel SBC needs to come out and say you need SBC local service in order to get SBC DSL. I wondered this at one point in time, and I know others may be wondering the same thing. While I may not agree with it, I realize it is the way things are
SBC does say this. If you called SBC and said, "I use my cell for a local phone and I want your DSL," they'd tell you that you have to get a local POTS line to order it.
This has nothing to do with trying to "punish" people that go to a CLEC, you just won't get an unbundled loop DSL service a la carte from SBC. It's not profitable to do this for residential customers. Whether people on BBR like it or not, it's not up to them to decide what a company offers and what terms they offer it under.
You mentioned insurance, that's an excellent example. I would like to see how many people can get State Farm or Allstate to underwrite a rider policy for a wedding ring when they don't have a homeowner's policy too. If you cancel your homeowners insurance, your wedding ring rider policy is gone too- they don't say, "Oh, you're going to Allstate? Then we'll just separate the rider on the jewelry for you- just send us a check for 35 cents per month now"
See how many movie theaters will let you bring your own popcorn and soda in with you. How many restaurants will let you order fries and a drink from the restaurant across the street while you order and eat the burger there? NONE! That's how many. Ever hear of "No Carry-Ins"?? How anti-competitive those places are! They won't let you buy half your meal somewhere else and bring it with you!
I have an idea- let's all try to get the airlines to let you check your luggage on a flight that you aren't on- but happens to be going to the same destination as you are on a different airline- because you like the baggage claims better at the other airline.
You are all complaining because you think you have something to complain about. The reality is- no one but people at BBR give a rats ass about this- no matter how many times Karl Bode advertises for his pal at "Tele-Scam"
Boogie
[text was edited by author 2003-10-30 00:30:56] | |
|  |  |   jizzo
@aelera.com
| Re: The Bundling Arguement The difference between the bundling in the services you mention and the DSL/pots service is that the former does not duplicate limited resources while the latter does. Let me explain: How many different restaurants are in your city? 100? 1000? 10,000? Can one of those restaurants charge you $100 for fries if you order a burger? Sure, but you don't have to pay it. You can eat your burger and if you really want fries, you can go across the street and pick some up for 99 cents. It's cheap to build a new fast food joint. It's expensive to duplicate an international telecom infrastructure. On the other hand, if you want high-speed internet in your home, how many lines or airwaves coming into your home offer you service? 1? 2? 3? In my case (I live in Georgia), only 1: BellSouth DSL. They will not let me unbundle my phone service. It's either pay what they ask or go without. To use the analogy: either I pay $100 for fries or I don't eat high-speed internet.
On a related note, they lied about how much it would cost. They said there would be no setup fees. The setup fees cost $150. They said the first month would be free. They charged me $50 for the first month. They said I would get a free DSL modem. I didn't get a free modem. I've called to get all of these promised rebates, and they said they'd send me coupons for them (again not part of the deal but better than taking them to court) and they still have not done even that. So they lied again. It's now been six months since the promises were made and still they are unfulfilled. You think I would stay with BellSouth if I had an option? No way. That's why we need competition. Sure, it's good to give state sponsored monopolies for a while to prevent unnecessary duplication of infrastructures (like electrical lines, sewer, water pipes, etc that come into your home). But enough is enough. Once the monopoly abuses its power and has made enough economic profits to justify its investment in building the infrastructure, it should lose the monopoly. BellSouth should lose its monopoly. As soon as I can keep my DSL and ditch my phone, I'm going to either get a cell phone or get Vonage VOIP. | |
|   Mellow Premium join:2001-11-16 Salisbury, MD | dry pair It is possible to do dry pair runs. Verizon does it all the time if you have the sdsl equipment on both ends. They just dont want to do it for ppl not using their other services. Just like comcast. | |
|  |  Sprinter99
join:2003-10-10 Grants Pass, OR
| Re: dry pair you would think that telcos would want to do dry pair installs. I can only imagine that they would see more business as a result, but then again I can't see the projected bottom line for that particular service. As far as I can tell it would improve their image as well. Time will tell if this has been a smart move for the telcos. | |
|   anamus
@mindspring.com
| Yea, its always happinin
Gas prices shoot up and down due to corporate collusion that cant be legally proved. Especially when there is a little news from the Arabs. California residents were raped from the utility companies and noone has gotten a refund yet despite all the legal hoopla they say is going on. Big companies can afford to fight any law enforcement action till the tax money dries up so they continue in there crooked ways like the tobaco companyies did for decades. In the end only the lawyers get rich as we continue to be taxed dry to pay for all the losses we endure. Its next to hopeless. Thank god for p2p. Its my personal vengance. | |
|  |  |  TheArchitect VIP join:2003-09-25 London, ON | Re: In canada Not true.
We provide DSL service, but only on Bell lines. If our customers are with someone like, say Sprint, we can't provide them service.... | |
|  |   T RAVER
join:2003-10-02 Calgary, AB
| Actually, at this moment in Canada if you change local phone service and have ADSL/DSL/SDSL/VDSL/etc with them, you will also lose your port. CRTC discussing this issue. -- ~In related news, bank robbery can now only be referred to as "professional forced fund reallocation."~Karl Bode | |
|   The Folsom Kindly Shut Your Noise Hole. Premium join:2003-01-31 Yucaipa, CA
| SBC Breaks It Off In Us I had to switch to SBC in order to get DSL. Is that illegal? [text was edited by author 2003-10-27 20:41:06] | |
|  ivanalcoff
join:2001-12-04 Boynton Beach, FL
| I refuse to be held up by Bell South I live in the Delray Beach, FL Area, lousy POTS service, 26KB max dialup. I paid XO/Covad $149 a month for a year for a 144KB IDSL line, till Bell South added a Ram Max in my development so ADSL was possible. Bell South's service sucked, I switched my Phone lines to Supra Telecom and the DSL to DSLi, a Bell South Reseller, and got mediocre 1.2KB down 384 up that never tested at more than 976 down, 256KB up, then I was sold a "Money saver" by DSLi to take my local service in addition to the DSL, which ended up costing me an extra $40 a month. I went to switch the local service back to Supra, and was told... Rut Roh, NO DSL FOR YOU... Well here's my solution... I got a 3MB cable modem line from Adelphia, that tests out near rated speed, and the techs helped me set up my linksys router and cable modem together so my home network runs great, so far no outages, and no slowdowns, and a free month, after that $10 less than DSLi's slower line and poor service. A POX on both their houses..... | |
|   boogie74
join:2001-06-19 Neenah, WI clubs:
| It all boils down to this... It can't get simpler than this: This is a forum filled with people that are self appointed legal/regulatory/telecom experts that bash any information that is given to them by people that actually work in the industry.
This is evident by Karl's embedded phrase,
quote: Sometimes the bells suggest providing DSL in conjunction with CLEC DSL is technically impossible, often they've suggested it wasn't legal. Both defenses have received ample criticism by users in our forums.
Now WHO, exactly gave the "users in our forums" expert level knowledge of ANYTHING other than the ability to rant about how unfair it is that MCI and AT&T refuse to offer DSL?
I don't see people here bitching that Burger King forces you to go to Burger King if you want a Whopper. If you want to go to McDonalds, Burger King won't let you buy a Whopper unless you go to BK! HOW anti-competitive is THAT??
Folks, it's not anti-competitive to offer a product that your competitors don't. That's called competing! CLECs are able to offer DSL- they choose not to. You aren't required to be able to get DSL from a Bell on your own terms- if you want it, buy it- if you don't, get it somewhere else. If someone else doesn't feel like selling it to you, THAT'S YOUR PROBLEM!
Boogie | |
|  |   SRFireside
join:2001-01-19 Houston, TX
| Re: It all boils down to this... I don't think the issue is about whether or not DSL is available from competition, but that the ILEC's cause all sorts of mayhem when you decide to use anything outside of their services. If you want DSL from a competitor your current DSL services go down. If you want DSL but not dialup from an ILEC you're out of luck. A lot of these things can be attributed to anti-competitive practices. -- Love Science Fiction? www.spacestationzoom.com | |
|  |   oliphant5 Got Identity? Premium join:2003-05-24 Corona, CA
| You're right...especially when these posters who are complaining about the "lack of knowledge" are the biggest sources of B.S. like telcos never taking price increases.
Take a look in the mirror Boogie before turning the spot light on those who aren't full of crap and have a whole hell of a lot more insight like Karl. -- -- Munis Killed the Telco Star -- Powered by Barry McKockenner Racing in association with Jack Mikkokov Motorsports | |
|  |  Mele20 Premium join:2001-06-05 Hilo, HI
| I don't get it What is the big hullabaloo about? We only have one local phone company in Hawaii so what is so wrong about Verizon offering a package deal on DSL and requiring you to have local service with them? Who else would you have local service with? A cell phone doesn't work in condos here (unless you go out on the lanai to use it) and everyone (even those in houses where cell phones work) needs a land line anyhow for emergencies, etc. So since you are going to have a land line with your local provider what is the big deal?
I just wish I could get DSL. I live in the second largest city in the state and can't even get DSL and I'm told my area will be the last in the state to be upgraded and maybe never will. All this griping and lots of us can't even get DSL. I would jump at having the Verizon package...it is great! It would save me a big amount over Road Runner and I already have long distance as well as local with Verizon. With the Verizon package I would be able to also afford a cell phone which I cannot now. I want Verizon to have a monopoly on DSL otherwise it won't ever get to my area of town and I am not out in the sticks...I am just four miles from the office. -- "Everything can be taken from a man or woman but one thing: the last of the human freedoms - to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's destiny." Victor Frankl - Man's Search for Meaning | |
|  rid0617
join:2003-07-20 Greer, SC
| charter monopoly Bellsouth tried that garbage with me here in south carolina. so, I switched to charter cable who has eliminated the $15 no tv fee, got a higher download, went with my cell phone full time and kicked bellsouth to the curb. As I told customer (dis) service, you could have made DSL dollars off me, now you get nothing | |
|   StillNotReg
@navy.mil
| It's all a big de-regulatory / re-regulatory mess! While I don't care for the tactics that the Baby Bells seems to be using, I can understand their motivation. Remember that the Telecom. act of 1996, I believe, forced Telcos (Bells) to lease some of their slots to competitors at wholesale rates. The idea was that because of the cost and risk associated with building telecom infrastructure, start-up competitors, whose presence in the market would provide all the blessings assumed to come from raw competition, would need a boost to get going. I suppose the thinking went that once the start-ups got a foothold and started making some profit, they would invest in building their own infrastructure and ultimately make even more profit.
The fly in the ointment that much of the mandated wholesale leases were taken by big established companies, such as MCI, AT&T, etc. So now you have the Bells forced to lease some of their infrastructure at discount prices to major competitors who should have the capital to build their own but who are "glomming" on the Bells. Now the Bells aren't exactly struggling newcomers, but it must be terribly frustrating for Bell execs. to have to swallow this. Yes, there was some benefits the Bells accrued in accepting these terms, namely the ability to get into the long distance market, but I believe that was a settlement of sorts, not a friendly proposal by the Bells.
So it seems we have a clash of the titans here. Really, the entire American business world has gotten to be such a mess that it's hard to find a clean, sound side to take. But as far as corporate morals and ethics as well as products, prices, and customer service go, I'd take the Bells over the CLECs like AT&T and MCI any day. And anyone who wants to see Comcast as their great white hope, well, I'll keep you in my prayers. This is the company that grudgingly allowed advertising for Satellite TV only if they did not disparage cable service, all the while running ads for their own service that are ruthlessly disparaging to satellite (I mean come on - whoever mounts a satellite dish with duct tape only gets what he deserves!).
I want to know who thought it was a good idea, not to mention a workable one, to have the equivalent of Wal-Mart leasing store space to K-mart at a discount? Naturally, Wal is going to do everything they can to disadvantage K. And even if start-up telcos ended up leasing all of the regulated capacity from the Bells and did then build their own infrastructures, is this a good idea? How many infrastructures do we need, how many can we support? Would not the roads be endlessly broken up as each individual company makes repairs, adjustments, and upgrades to their cabling? Do we want four COs on every block, so to speak?
I think there is promise in the idea that some cities in he US have implemented, where the networking infrastructure is a public utility and the service providers lease it on an equal footing to provide the service. I don't think telecom as we know it today can ever be a truly competitive market. | |
|  wigwam
join:2001-12-12 Minneapolis, MN
| clec buys ilec services ya'll realize that clecs buy the dial tone and features from the ilec, right? so if your service is 'crappy' guess what??!? it is still going to be 'crappy' you just now get to complain to the clec who then complains to the ilec.
it is called reselling they all do it, mci and att are the biggest resellers, they could also buy the dsl from the ilec and resell it to their customers. some do that but, most do not. | |
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