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Urban Electrified Broadband
Manassas, VA nation's first BPL wired city

The city of Manassas, Virginia, will be the first in the nation to deliver all residents broadband via power-lines; users paying $30 a month for the privilege. Manassas has been the site of one of the larger BPL (broadband via power-line) trials in the U.S. Thrilled by the trial, the City Council last week voted unanimously (See Potomac News brief) to sign a contract with Prospect Street Broadband to expand the service throughout the entire city. Residential users will pay $29.95 per month to plug in, with commercial service available for $69.95.

The company's website is still under development, and speeds haven't been listed. This Public Power Weekly article discusses the original trial, and notes that the speeds tested ranged from around 500kbps to 1.5Mbps.

Of course the American Radio Relay League (ARRL), who have been vocal about the technology's interference problems, are front and center as the trial expands into city-wide application. In their latest article, the organization reiterates their concerns.

In a letter faxed to Manassas Mayor Marvin L. Gillum, ARRL CEO David Sumner warns: "Your advisors no doubt have made the Council fully aware of the great potential for radio interference from such a system. In particular, you are no doubt well aware that Title 47 CFR §15.5 requires that no harmful interference is caused to any radio communication service, and that the operator shall be required to cease operation upon notification by a Federal Communications Commission representative that the device is causing harmful interference."

It's estimated that the city of Manassas could bring in $4.5 million over the life of the 10-year contract with Prospect Street Broadband, so it's unlikely the shift toward BPL will see any delays, interference or not. There are BPL alternatives whose emissions occur within the unlicensed 5 GHz ISM band and are less likely to cause interference; one such deployment, which also offers better speeds, is being tested by California Pacific Gas and Electric and Corridor Systems.
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RayW
Premium Member
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT

RayW

Premium Member

I will be watching this

Considering all the pros and cons, this could be an interesting deployment.
67845017 (banned)
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL

67845017 (banned)

Member

Radio Guys as Usual

pitching a fit. I'm so sick of hearing about their gripes.

RayW
Premium Member
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT

RayW

Premium Member

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

The piece was not just on the ARRL Goob, it was on the entire situation.

They (radio guys) do have a valid point, it remains to seen if in this case theory is as bad as expected, or if the power lines somehow do not radiate like the antennas they resemble. Time will tell.
DonLibes

join:2003-01-19

DonLibes

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

How can it possibly "remain to be seen". BPL has been in the lab and field tests for years. How can it take more than a day to figure out if there is a problem here? I suspect there is no problem otherwise they wouldn't have signed contracts to roll it out. I figure competitors know this and are merely resorting to the usual FUD tactics.

RayW
Premium Member
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT

RayW

Premium Member

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

said by DonLibes:
How can it possibly "remain to be seen". BPL has been in the lab and field tests for years. How can it take more than a day to figure out if there is a problem here? I suspect there is no problem otherwise they wouldn't have signed contracts to roll it out. I figure competitors know this and are merely resorting to the usual FUD tactics.
Money talks, no matter what the proof says. Politicians and big business have done that for years. Does not matter which party, they all have the hand out for baksheesh.

As far as field tests, yes, and the ones I heard about in the 70's were canceled because of radiation problems (granted it WAS military which has tighter requirements than a politician).

Radio Active
My pappy's a pistol
Premium Member
join:2003-01-31
Fullerton, CA

Radio Active to 67845017

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to 67845017
said by 67845017:
pitching a fit. I'm so sick of hearing about their gripes.
And we hams are sick of hearing from ignorant jerks how we should step aside so bandwidth hogs can obliterate worldwide radio frequencies.
"Radio Guys" have been, and will continue to look out for HF communications even though we "Radio Guys" are allocated only about 15% of the spectrum. That leaves the rest for broadcasters, public safety-you know, why am I even wasting my time explaining this to you. It's probably over your head anyway.
Now be a good moron and go back to eating your own hair. There's a good goober.
The name says it all.
Troll.
67845017 (banned)
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL

67845017 (banned)

Member

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

said by Radio Active:
said by 67845017:
pitching a fit. I'm so sick of hearing about their gripes.
And we hams are sick of hearing from ignorant jerks how we should step aside so bandwidth hogs can obliterate worldwide radio frequencies.
"Radio Guys" have been, and will continue to look out for HF communications even though we "Radio Guys" are allocated only about 15% of the spectrum. That leaves the rest for broadcasters, public safety-you know, why am I even wasting my time explaining this to you. It's probably over your head anyway.
Now be a good moron and go back to eating your own hair. There's a good goober.
The name says it all.
Troll.

Hardly a troll. And, if you knew my background, hardly over my head.

The thing is, times are changing. While I understand the concerns and the issues, mass migration towards the internet is is trumping almost everything else. You guys, and I would defy anyone to disagree, are a rare breed nowadays and getting rarer. What I'm tired of hearing is the same gripe about how BPL will obliterate and destroy and kill radio communications. Too much drama and woe-is-me and armageddon like posturing. Let's see what happens.

BTW, your insults do become you quite well. I like the sig link though.
dsless
join:2001-05-16
Pittsburgh, PA

dsless

Member

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

And the next time a hurricane comes through the hams are the only ones that will be able to communicate. Ooppps, sorry this explanation my be way under you............

alex4life
Alex4life
Premium Member
join:2001-06-22
Delta, BC

alex4life

Premium Member

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

said by dsless:
And the next time a hurricane comes through the hams are the only ones that will be able to communicate. Ooppps, sorry this explanation my be way under you............
There are no hurricanes where I live...

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine

Member

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

said by alex4life:
said by dsless:
And the next time a hurricane comes through the hams are the only ones that will be able to communicate. Ooppps, sorry this explanation my be way under you............
There are no hurricanes where I live...

Snowstorm, Earthquake, terrorist attack, you're arguing semantics here.

Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY

Transmaster to alex4life

Member

to alex4life
quote:
There are no hurricanes where I live...
No but you have floods, mudslides, heavy snow, SAR's, and a braincell crisis.
moonpuppy (banned)
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD

moonpuppy (banned) to 67845017

Member

to 67845017
said by 67845017:


Hardly a troll. And, if you knew my background, hardly over my head.
Care to enlighten us on your background? Or do you want to just keep trolling?
said by 67845017:

The thing is, times are changing. While I understand the concerns and the issues, mass migration towards the internet is is trumping almost everything else. You guys, and I would defy anyone to disagree, are a rare breed nowadays and getting rarer. What I'm tired of hearing is the same gripe about how BPL will obliterate and destroy and kill radio communications. Too much drama and woe-is-me and armageddon like posturing. Let's see what happens.
I disagree, we are not a rare breed. We may not have the numbers we did but we are still here. You don't see us. Can you tell if someone donates blood if they walk down the street? Can you tell if someone volunteer's their time at a hospital by the way they dress?

And why are you tired of hearing how BPL will kill radio communications? Don't like the truth? Don't like the fact that this technology is flawed? We have already seen what has happened in other countries like Japan, Germany, and Austria to name a few.

If you are looking for competition to lower your internet bill, guess again. This will be just another option only deployed to densely populated areas. Just because you have a power outlet, doesn't mean BPL is a plug away.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine

Member

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

said by moonpuppy:
said by 67845017:


Hardly a troll. And, if you knew my background, hardly over my head.
Care to enlighten us on your background? Or do you want to just keep trolling?

Wow,

just wow.

I think we have full quieting

rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA

1 recommendation

rf_engineer to 67845017

Member

to 67845017
said by 67845017:

Hardly a troll. And, if you knew my background, hardly over my head.

The thing is, times are changing. While I understand the concerns and the issues, mass migration towards the internet is is trumping almost everything else. You guys, and I would defy anyone to disagree, are a rare breed nowadays and getting rarer. What I'm tired of hearing is the same gripe about how BPL will obliterate and destroy and kill radio communications. Too much drama and woe-is-me and armageddon like posturing. Let's see what happens.

We're tired of reading posts full of misinformation or unqualified the-Internet-is-my-life people claiming this is great technology. If you're so qualified as you claim, tell us why this will work. Show us the flaws with our computer models and field measurements. No one has in these forums and the BPL vendors and carriers have failed to effectively address any of these issues with the FCC.

The world does not revolve around the Internet. During the 90's everyone thought the Internet could defy the laws of business and investing. It didn't. Now others want to defy the laws of physics. It isn't going to happen.

Regardless of the next web technology, Microsoft development platform du jour, or IP enabled shiny phone thing that takes pictures, there will always be a need for basic technology like radio. We can have high speed Internet and worldwide infrastructure independent wireless communications without Dark Ages BPL technology crapping up the spectrum.

CanOpener4
join:2003-06-23
Brooklyn, NY

CanOpener4

Member

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

said by rf_engineer:
The world does not revolve around the Internet. During the 90's everyone thought the Internet could defy the laws of business and investing. It didn't. Now others want to defy the laws of physics. It isn't going to happen.
LMAO! I'm sorry, but that is the funniest statement in this thread so far! You hit it on the nail.... right on!

Anyway, I agree... 2nd that?
moonpuppy (banned)
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD

moonpuppy (banned)

Member

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

2nd

Motion carried and forwarded....all in favor say aye.
SBC ST
join:2003-08-05
Strongsville, OH

SBC ST

Member

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

AYE ! -KB8YKB (General Class)

ctceo
Premium Member
join:2001-04-26
South Bend, IN

ctceo to rf_engineer

Premium Member

to rf_engineer
In case you haven't noticed, the internet has just a few more subscribers than HAM radio, say maybe 2 or 3, and last I checked the world was revolving more and more around the internet & related technologies.

Like an ostrich, It's about time to pull your head out of that hole in the ground and change, adapt with the times like the rest of the world.

Additionally, Yes, Radio may be a basic technology, but it too is changing. If ever a catastrophe occurs that HAM must save the lives of us all, I highly doubt that BPL will be any concern at that time because the power will probably be out! Even then Government entities will quickly take as much control as possible, and hammers will not have a say unless they want them too. On this I am certain.

Now onto this topic:

I had a blast field testing in VA, and hope to do some more soon. We were able to get quite a lot working in a relatively short period of time. There was little to no impact on Local emergency service frequencies, or other common household Part 15 devices. The little leaks here and there that were discovered are currently being fixed. All in all this is turning out to be great indeed.

rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA

rf_engineer

Member

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

said by ctceo:
In case you haven't noticed, the internet has just a few more subscribers than HAM radio, say maybe 2 or 3, and last I checked the world was revolving more and more around the internet & related technologies.

Like an ostrich, It's about time to pull your head out of that hole in the ground and change, adapt with the times like the rest of the world.

Additionally, Yes, Radio may be a basic technology, but it too is changing. If ever a catastrophe occurs that HAM must save the lives of us all, I highly doubt that BPL will be any concern at that time because the power will probably be out! Even then Government entities will quickly take as much control as possible, and hammers will not have a say unless they want them too. On this I am certain.

Now onto this topic:

I had a blast field testing in VA, and hope to do some more soon. We were able to get quite a lot working in a relatively short period of time. There was little to no impact on Local emergency service frequencies, or other common household Part 15 devices. The little leaks here and there that were discovered are currently being fixed. All in all this is turning out to be great indeed.

Hey, welcome back. I feel like I know you, ctceo

We've addressed your points before. Ham Radio is not dying. Consumer demand for fast cheap Internet does not justify destroying a unique band of radio spectrum. Even though BPL interference would be gone during a power outage, Hams need to train to use their equipment and during an emergency they need to communicate with areas that do have power. Plus, hams use only 10% of the spectrum, the rest are blah, blah, blah...

Are the measurements you made public? I doubt it. Also, how does an unshielded line "leak" in places? I don't expect an answer. Any proof that you had anything to do with the trial ?

I'm tired of typing the same things over and over. When are you going to tell us what company you lead as CEO ? Good night.

Radio Active
My pappy's a pistol
Premium Member
join:2003-01-31
Fullerton, CA

Radio Active to ctceo

Premium Member

to ctceo
said by ctceo:
In case you haven't noticed, the internet has just a few more subscribers than HAM radio, say maybe 2 or 3, and last I checked the world was revolving more and more around the internet & related technologies.

Like an ostrich, It's about time to pull your head out of that hole in the ground and change, adapt with the times like the rest of the world.

Additionally, Yes, Radio may be a basic technology, but it too is changing. If ever a catastrophe occurs that HAM must save the lives of us all, I highly doubt that BPL will be any concern at that time because the power will probably be out! Even then Government entities will quickly take as much control as possible, and hammers will not have a say unless they want them too. On this I am certain.

Now onto this topic:

I had a blast field testing in VA, and hope to do some more soon. We were able to get quite a lot working in a relatively short period of time. There was little to no impact on Local emergency service frequencies, or other common household Part 15 devices. The little leaks here and there that were discovered are currently being fixed. All in all this is turning out to be great indeed.
--
SuperMicro P4QH6 w/Quad Xeon 3.06Ghz, Gainward FX Ultra 1600 AGP 8x Video 256 DDR, 1GB DDR memory, DVD-RW, Audigy II Sound, 180GB SATA Hard Drive, 27" Flat Panel or Independent 3D Glasses. It may be a bit much, But it's the ultimate in gaming experiences!

So? Even here, minorities have rights, too. In case you haven't noticed, hams don't like being talked down to. So your comment of "maybe 2 or 3" is not going to make you sound any way other than condescending.

Like a shill, you expound the virtues of a technology in which you have a direct interest. Egress your cranium from your anal orifice. It's time for you to quit trying to fool us.

Ham radio is changing, yes. It is changing how communications occur via radio. But there is very little that is basic about some of the techniques we hams are devising to further the art and science of radio frequency communications. We don't even get paid for it. Who deserves the priority more? Unpaid experts or pension-robbing corporations? You don't fool us; you are in it for the money. All the money in the world will not replace even ONE human being killed in some catastrophe or emergency; people CAN be saved by the efforts of hams, regardless of your biased opinion of hams saving people. It does not matter if one or one million people are saved by hams. BPL will threaten more peoples' safety than hams will ever save. How arrogant of you to assume that because you place no value on human life then no one else does, either.

BTW, given the nature of 2-80 Hz BPL, local interference might be nil in a power outage, but it will still be present. The noise floor in that portion of the spectrum will be raised by BPL all over the world.

I'm glad you got to the topic after insulting your betters. Your data may have been obtained scientifically or not; the fact that you have something to gain from it makes your data suspect. Besides, it is not one or two leaks that concern hams. It is the leaks (plural) which will add together all over the country and the world. You cannot plug every hole. You must rebuilt the entire boat. You might as well rewire the entire grid. While you are at it. Scrap BPL and put the money in to fiber instead. Or is that too low a profit margin for you?

BTW, it's ham(lower case), not HAM. We are hams. Not "hammers".

Lumberjack
Premium Member
join:2003-01-18
Newport News, VA

Lumberjack

Premium Member

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

You crack me up man. Take a chill pill.

Radio Active
My pappy's a pistol
Premium Member
join:2003-01-31
Fullerton, CA

Radio Active

Premium Member

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

said by Lumberjack:
You crack me up man. Take a chill pill.
Yeah, you right. Need a glass of water to chase it down. Ah...That's better. I'm cool now.

ctceo
Premium Member
join:2001-04-26
South Bend, IN

ctceo to Radio Active

Premium Member

to Radio Active
I'm sorry that you didn't catch the sarcasm. Perhaps next time I should point it out to you.

Radio Active
My pappy's a pistol
Premium Member
join:2003-01-31
Fullerton, CA

Radio Active

Premium Member

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

said by ctceo:
I'm sorry that you didn't catch the sarcasm. Perhaps next time I should point it out to you.
I give up. --
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. »www.prepaidlegal.com/inf ··· /kfolsom
[text was edited by author 2003-10-26 03:37:13]
David95037
join:2003-04-16
Morgan Hill, CA

David95037 to ctceo

Member

to ctceo
said by ctceo:


I had a blast field testing in VA, and hope to do some more soon. We were able to get quite a lot working in a relatively short period of time. There was little to no impact on Local emergency service frequencies
Impact on emergency services? Any impact on emergency services is totally unacceptable.
67845017 (banned)
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL

67845017 (banned)

Member

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

said by David95037:
said by ctceo:


I had a blast field testing in VA, and hope to do some more soon. We were able to get quite a lot working in a relatively short period of time. There was little to no impact on Local emergency service frequencies
Impact on emergency services? Any impact on emergency services is totally unacceptable.
That's the kind of mindset for which it's hard to give any credence. The response should have been, "Well, that's nice. But what exactly is this little impact of which you speak?"

Instead, you gave a blanket condemnation.

How can you ever further your cause with that type of shrill ranting?

rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA

rf_engineer

Member

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

said by 67845017:
said by David95037:
said by ctceo:


I had a blast field testing in VA, and hope to do some more soon. We were able to get quite a lot working in a relatively short period of time. There was little to no impact on Local emergency service frequencies
Impact on emergency services? Any impact on emergency services is totally unacceptable.
That's the kind of mindset for which it's hard to give any credence. The response should have been, "Well, that's nice. But what exactly is this little impact of which you speak?"

Instead, you gave a blanket condemnation.

How can you ever further your cause with that type of shrill ranting?
But it is unacceptable, it's emergency communications. Would you like your 911 dispatch to be delayed due to interference ? It's kind of like "we found a little bit of ecoli in your water, sir."

Ctceo, can you provide any measurements or any proof of your involvement ?
DonLibes

join:2003-01-19

DonLibes

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

said by rf_engineer:
said by 67845017:
said by David95037:
said by ctceo:


I had a blast field testing in VA, and hope to do some more soon. We were able to get quite a lot working in a relatively short period of time. There was little to no impact on Local emergency service frequencies
Impact on emergency services? Any impact on emergency services is totally unacceptable.
That's the kind of mindset for which it's hard to give any credence. The response should have been, "Well, that's nice. But what exactly is this little impact of which you speak?"

Instead, you gave a blanket condemnation.

How can you ever further your cause with that type of shrill ranting?
But it is unacceptable, it's emergency communications. Would you like your 911 dispatch to be delayed due to interference ? It's kind of like "we found a little bit of ecoli in your water, sir."
Actually, a little bit of E. Coli won't make you sick. It has to be greater than 235 E.coli/100ml before it's considered a problem. Pollution in general works this way. It's only when concentrations are high enough that substances are considered pollution.

So your analogy is a bad one. But nonetheless, I agree with Goober: blanket condemnations are stupid. Just because something is an "emergency" doesn't mean you have to avoid all impact. You can only judge after you understand the nature of the impact.

rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA

rf_engineer

Member

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

said by DonLibes:
So your analogy is a bad one. But nonetheless, I agree with Goober: blanket condemnations are stupid. Just because something is an "emergency" doesn't mean you have to avoid all impact. You can only judge after you understand the nature of the impact.
Yes, perhaps a bad analogy from an area that I have no experience in. But I do have experience in the RF field and know what I'm talking about in that regards.

Ctceo has dropped a post in here claiming involvement with a test area and claims no problems, but is incredibly ambiguous and lacks any detailed proof, along with a comment about "leaks" that is technically frivolous to anyone who understands the technology involved. The blanket condemnation matches his lackadaisical "reporting" of his findings. Any EMA official worth his or her salt would be having a cow over such a statement as "little or no impact" with no supporting information.

Ctceo hasn't left the forum as shown by his latest post. So where's the evidence ? Or is someone just blowing smoke, as usual ?

ctceo
Premium Member
join:2001-04-26
South Bend, IN

ctceo

Premium Member

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

Proof is that it is still being tested in other areas. Fact is that it has gone into use in Man., VA.

Related link:
»www.appanet.org/pdfreq.c ··· CTION=GO

By the way RF, you are right about blowing smoke, you might want to open a window and get a few fans going on your end. I'm not the one who's getting all mad about the whole issue. I'm sorry if you took my sarcasm in the first post as a personal attack, or an attack on all HAMs. For that you have my sincerest apologies.
N0JCG
join:2003-07-18
Minneapolis, MN

N0JCG

Member

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

Amazing. APPA completely ignored the RF noise, but I guess we can't expect them to be honest and show everything. Maybe when this is running I'll send a Grundig SW receiver to the mayor and he can check it out himself.

ctceo
Premium Member
join:2001-04-26
South Bend, IN

ctceo

Premium Member

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

I'm sorry that you misunderstood their article. There was little noise to speak of, as for the noise that was detected, we witnessed teams quickly responding to fix the problem equipment.

So in fact they were quite honest. Look for more positive updates out of this specific rollout area in the very near future.
N0JCG
join:2003-07-18
Minneapolis, MN

N0JCG

Member

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

The article must have been released before the city council met, since it spoke of that in the future tense, therefore any measurements they could have had would be from the tiny test area. In there any data taken with conventional field equipment? Perhaps audio on the shortwave broadcast band with the BPL system on and off. It's not suffecient to measure the RF field at a distance. The BPL system will still be held responsible if harmfull interference is detected regardless of the field levels. Did they conduct RF immunity testing with 1.5KW transmitters within 30 feet of the lines, which would be the situation where I live?

If all of the testing was so promising, why not release it and end the controversy? If Main.net has somehow changed their system to be unnoticed by licensed services in the same bands, why not expand the bandwidth to include the AM and FM broadcast bands? I'm sure they could use the higher data rates, then they wouldn't have to downgrade customers to slower modems (as mentioned in the article).

I can't see what BPL proponents have to gain by holding back this information, unless, of course, the results are unfavorable to their cause.

rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA

rf_engineer to ctceo

Member

to ctceo
said by ctceo:
Proof is that it is still being tested in other areas. Fact is that it has gone into use in Man., VA.

Related link:
»www.appanet.org/pdfreq.c ··· CTION=GO

By the way RF, you are right about blowing smoke, you might want to open a window and get a few fans going on your end. I'm not the one who's getting all mad about the whole issue. I'm sorry if you took my sarcasm in the first post as a personal attack, or an attack on all HAMs. For that you have my sincerest apologies.
--
SuperMicro P4QH6 w/Quad Xeon 3.06Ghz, Gainward FX Ultra 1600 AGP 8x Video 256 DDR, 1GB DDR memory, DVD-RW, Audigy II Sound, 180GB SATA Hard Drive, 27" Flat Panel or Independent 3D Glasses. It may be a bit much, But it's the ultimate in gaming experiences!

I'm not getting mad at the whole issue, I'm annoyed by unsubstantiated claims. You said you "had a blast" testing this in VA and implied there weren't any problems. Where's the data to back up your claims ?

I'm not quite sure of the relevance of the article to my questions to you as it's pretty much a brochure with no real measurements. You're preaching to the choir if you're trying to tell me it's being tested or in use. I know PPL is charging for it today in Emmaus, PA and soon in Bethlehem.

Did your testing experience go beyond watching blinking CPE lights, or was I reading too much into your "had a blast" post ?

Radio Active
My pappy's a pistol
Premium Member
join:2003-01-31
Fullerton, CA

Radio Active to ctceo

Premium Member

to ctceo
said by ctceo:
Proof is that it is still being tested in other areas. Fact is that it has gone into use in Man., VA.

Related link:
»www.appanet.org/pdfreq.c ··· CTION=GO

By the way RF, you are right about blowing smoke, you might want to open a window and get a few fans going on your end. I'm not the one who's getting all mad about the whole issue. I'm sorry if you took my sarcasm in the first post as a personal attack, or an attack on all HAMs. For that you have my sincerest apologies.
--
SuperMicro P4QH6 w/Quad Xeon 3.06Ghz, Gainward FX Ultra 1600 AGP 8x Video 256 DDR, 1GB DDR memory, DVD-RW, Audigy II Sound, 180GB SATA Hard Drive, 27" Flat Panel or Independent 3D Glasses. It may be a bit much, But it's the ultimate in gaming experiences!

What is the purpose of your sarcasm? It offends the people at whom you direct it. Not a flame, just my take on sarcastic remarks; they are generally taken as an attack. Whether at an individual or a group, sarcasm is unwelcome when a clear position can be described.
My trigger was your sarcastic remark about "2 or 3 more internet users than hams" as if that justifies the whole BPL/HF licensee rivalry. The fact that you don't come up with anything other than disparaging remarks about hams (which are not the only users of HF) irks me personally, and I am sure other hams as well.
Again, this is not intended as a flame, but a description of my position on this subject.
For my part, I offer to you my public apology for my less than tactful replies to your (selected)posts.
Cheers.
67845017 (banned)
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL

67845017 (banned) to rf_engineer

Member

to rf_engineer
said by rf_engineer:
said by 67845017:
said by David95037:
said by ctceo:


I had a blast field testing in VA, and hope to do some more soon. We were able to get quite a lot working in a relatively short period of time. There was little to no impact on Local emergency service frequencies
Impact on emergency services? Any impact on emergency services is totally unacceptable.
That's the kind of mindset for which it's hard to give any credence. The response should have been, "Well, that's nice. But what exactly is this little impact of which you speak?"

Instead, you gave a blanket condemnation.

How can you ever further your cause with that type of shrill ranting?
But it is unacceptable, it's emergency communications. Would you like your 911 dispatch to be delayed due to interference ? It's kind of like "we found a little bit of ecoli in your water, sir."

Ctceo, can you provide any measurements or any proof of your involvement ?
If you truly are an RF engineer, you should understand that RF issues are never black and white. In fact, I consider certain aspects of RF to be art more than science. That being the case, only actual measurements will provide any meaningful basis for dialog in favor of overturning BPL rollout.

•••
w2co
join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO

w2co to rf_engineer

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to rf_engineer
==========================================================
Ctceo, can you provide any measurements or any proof of your involvement ?
==========================================================
He will never answer that rf engineer, he's just an ass.
Ignore him he's a powerless new grad wannabe...
David95037
join:2003-04-16
Morgan Hill, CA

David95037 to 67845017

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to 67845017
said by 67845017:
said by David95037:
said by ctceo:


I had a blast field testing in VA, and hope to do some more soon. We were able to get quite a lot working in a relatively short period of time. There was little to no impact on Local emergency service frequencies
Impact on emergency services? Any impact on emergency services is totally unacceptable.
That's the kind of mindset for which it's hard to give any credence. The response should have been, "Well, that's nice. But what exactly is this little impact of which you speak?"

Instead, you gave a blanket condemnation.

How can you ever further your cause with that type of shrill ranting?
Not a rant, a deep concern for the integrity of our communications structure that the entire community depends on.

For a rant we only need to look to the top of the thread as quoted below.
said by 67845017:
pitching a fit. I'm so sick of hearing about their gripes.

•••

Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY

Transmaster to rf_engineer

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to rf_engineer
Well RF as you may know we have a massive cloud of solar ejecta zooming our way at about 250 miles per second which will impact our magnetosphere sometime Friday afternoon.
It will be interesting to see if there is any impact on BPL operation when the power grids start taking the static
charging from the energized magnetosphere. I could disrupt the power grid, cell phones, satellite TV, etc.

Radio Active
My pappy's a pistol
Premium Member
join:2003-01-31
Fullerton, CA

3 recommendations

Radio Active to 67845017

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to 67845017
said by 67845017:
said by Radio Active:
said by 67845017:
pitching a fit. I'm so sick of hearing about their gripes.
And we hams are sick of hearing from ignorant jerks how we should step aside so bandwidth hogs can obliterate worldwide radio frequencies.
"Radio Guys" have been, and will continue to look out for HF communications even though we "Radio Guys" are allocated only about 15% of the spectrum. That leaves the rest for broadcasters, public safety-you know, why am I even wasting my time explaining this to you. It's probably over your head anyway.
Now be a good moron and go back to eating your own hair. There's a good goober.
The name says it all.
Troll.

Hardly a troll. And, if you knew my background, hardly over my head.

The thing is, times are changing. While I understand the concerns and the issues, mass migration towards the internet is is trumping almost everything else. You guys, and I would defy anyone to disagree, are a rare breed nowadays and getting rarer. What I'm tired of hearing is the same gripe about how BPL will obliterate and destroy and kill radio communications. Too much drama and woe-is-me and armageddon like posturing. Let's see what happens.

BTW, your insults do become you quite well. I like the sig link though.
OK. Looked at your profile. You're not a moron. Well, you are educated, anyway. Humble apologies are offered.

Hams are very outspoken. It goes with the hobby.

But we are not a rare breed. There are over 1,600,000 of us in the U.S. alone, and many millions more throughout the rest of the world. We are not declining, but increasing. Not as many as there used to be, but we are becoming higher in numbers. I predict that if/when the FCC removes the morse requirement, there will be even more (I know, I know, please-no flames; I am not taking a position for or against morse in this forum). Please cite your source showing the declining numbers of hams.

Hardly a matter of being trumped by BPL.

Be aware that hams have been in the forefront of technology since before the internet came to be. We invented "Packet Radio", a precurser to TCP/IP. We deserve a lot more respect than we are given by the BPL proponents. We have rights to the HF spectrum. Ham radio deserves protected status because of its history (IMO).

BPL is not the end-all-beat-all of Broadband. Radio is still useful. That BPL is "popular" and ham radio is not as well known by the public does not make the former any more valid than the latter.

Some perspective: Which do you think is more viable in the face of world-wide catastrophe? Sorry for the "doomsday" reference, but if the grid goes down, BPL is dead. Radio can be made to work when BPL cannot.

Infrastructure? BPL is dependent upon it. Radio needs only an operator and a supply of electricity.
Redundancy? BPL must have it for reliability. Radio has it built in; One radio operator can transmit a message to many at once when BPL is down. BPL needs a team of people to keep a network up and running, even during "normal" or "nominal" conditions.

BPL is inferior to radio for these reasons. The physical connection necessary for BPL makes it inferior in terms of utility when compared to the ubiquity of radio. The only thing that I can think of at this moment that could prevent the propagation of radio communications would be the EMP of a nuclear detonation, but that is hardly germaine to my point because that same EMP would take down a network for much longer if you consider the nature of the respective topologies of the two media. A ham operator need only replace a relative few components in a radio and he is back on the air; the same cannot be said for a network given the complexity of the equipment being used.
Think of how many repeaters would be destroyed by EMP.

This may not be a great example of which is better, but it may give some indication of how much more useful radio is compared to the perceived value placed upon it by BPL proponents. BPL is just so limited by comparison.

"But if the grid goes down, then the interference goes away." This has been said by some proponents of BPL. But this is hardly true if you consider that BPL signals can travel around the world when atmospheric conditions are conducive. And they ALWAYS are from one part of the world or another.

So if the local interference is gone, radio communications still cannot be carried out because of the interference from other parts of the world will still exist.

I am not suggesting that ham radio is the only means of communication. But the HF band is better suited for "long haul" communications (when BPL is down).

Sure, BPL is a fascinating technology, but it is hardly a viable alternative to other, yet-to-be-discovered means of bringing broadband to those who can not or will not be served by DSL or cable because of corporate lobbying and blind sheep who will grasp at anything to get broadband, even to the detriment of "world safety".

rf_engineer has expounded quite convincingly and thoroughly on the technical aspects of the deleterious nature of BPL upon the HF spectrum. I could not hope to add to that.

But BPL is hardly the answer to the problem of "Broadband Deprivation". (*New* BPL (5GHz) notwithstanding)

The post which you offered was bound to get a reaction. How could you NOT expect to be called a troll?
OK, I was out of line when I resorted to name-calling and condescension. For that I am apologize.

But your post was insulting. We hams do not deserve being characterized as "gripers" and we deserve more respect than you showed in your post.

73 de KF6HCD.

•••••••
w2co
join:2003-07-16
Longmont, CO

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to 67845017
==============================================================
What I'm tired of hearing is the same gripe about how BPL will obliterate and destroy and kill radio communications. Too much drama and woe-is-me and armageddon like posturing. Let's see what happens.
==============================================================
But the fact is it will KILL radio communications in the 1-80
Mhz bands. As you know we hams are only about 15% of the users
in these bands. As for "lets see what happens", well I can tell you that it won't be pretty. Homeland security will suffer as well as local fire/police etc. because of the randomly generated harmonics generated. Do you think all the public services are going to foot the bill to upgrade all their comm systems to trunking Ghz stuff? I seriously doubt it, and if they do it will come out of yours and mine pockets. Security is the main issue to say the least, and talk about security for your internet experiences, there will be none! Anyone can "eavesdrop" on everything you type.
It will be easy to do this even mobile sitting under the repeater pole. Frankly, I am surprised the FCC allowed this crap to get this far, and must say they (FCC) are playing with fire on this one. Just wait until the NTIA gets done with their studies, not to mention the ITU who has already expressed concerns. You think we hams (=15% of users) are loud mouths, , just wait for the NTIA (=>65% of users) to sound off their mouths. Heads will roll!

Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY

Transmaster to Radio Active

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to Radio Active
Click for full size
[b] I....WANT...MY...BROADBAND....SCREW....HAMS...

CanOpener4
join:2003-06-23
Brooklyn, NY

CanOpener4

Member

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

[OT]
Since when were .bmp's able to be posted?
[/OT]

The picture was funny.
Your statements were childish.

Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY

Transmaster

Member

Re: Radio Guys as Usual

I take it you don't know about the Monty Python dolts.
They....talk....real....slow....
and in answer to your question I didn't know it was a .bmp
until after I loaded it.

DrTCP
Yours truly

join:1999-11-09
Round Rock, TX

DrTCP to Radio Active

to Radio Active
quote:
"Radio Guys" have been, and will continue to look out for HF communications even though we "Radio Guys" are allocated only about 15% of the spectrum.
Given the percentage of Ham operators in the general population 15% is too generous. Yes, there is emergency role but 15% of the spectrum is not needed for such task. It is a a small number of hobbiest hogging 15% of the spectrum which could have been used better for public good.

•••

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine to 67845017

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said by 67845017:
pitching a fit. I'm so sick of hearing about their gripes.
Broadband at any cost guys as usual. I'm so sick of their selfishness.

radioguy
@schwab.com

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Did you EVER listen to the lame gamers whinning about slow speed.. Long pings. They really need a life.

CanOpener4
join:2003-06-23
Brooklyn, NY

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Re: I will be watching this

said by Urban Electrified Broadband
Manassas, VA nation's first BPL wired city
Written by Karl Bode:

This Public Power Weekly article discusses the original trial, and notes that the speeds tested ranged from around 500kbps to 1.5Mbps.

[SARCASM]Wow! Those speeds are just amazing aren't they? [/SARCASM]

BPL of this form was idiotically contrived and injudiciously implemented. Wake-up people, this is nothing to be excited about. Save the excitement for FTTP when/if that ever happens!
[text was edited by author 2003-10-23 22:24:22]

••••••••••

en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

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I don't see why it wouldn't be cheaper to install a wireless system -
If this is a small town, a couple of towers would cover it, and there would be little to no maintenance (or infrastructure!) required.

••••
53059959 (banned)
Temp banned from BBR more then anyone
join:2002-10-02
PwnZone

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they should have done it around here, where ppl actually have electricity =P

RadioGuy
@schwab.com

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I think, as someone in Cleveland said....

Will this open the door to allow ISP's to deliver power to the homes. Let's us reverse BPL

ctceo
Premium Member
join:2001-04-26
South Bend, IN

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We visited as a 3rd Party specifically taking readings with on-loan equipment from our local Power Company. We were independently contracted by them to scan readings for use in our local economy. The results of those tests are their property, and unfortunately we are unable to comment on the specifics, other than to say that testing expectations for interference from BPL were greatly overestimated both at the time of rollout and after the system was completely online and in service.

You will see it soon enough. Just wait and be patient.

••••••••••••
N0JCG
join:2003-07-18
Minneapolis, MN

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Hopefully the people in Mannasas will now be aware of the downside.
»www.potomacnews.com/serv ··· th=!news
W1RFI
join:2003-05-12
Burlington, CT

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There are two follow-up articles to the original newspaper article.

See:

http://www.potomacnews.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WPN%2FMGArticle%2FWPN_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031771762617&path=!news

http://www.potomacnews.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WPN%2FMGArticle%2FWPN_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031771762771&path=!news

ARRL has a resource page on broadband over power line (BPL) at:

http://www.arrl.org/bpl

Ed Hare, W1RFI@arrl.org

ctceo
Premium Member
join:2001-04-26
South Bend, IN

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The follow-up articles listed, don't really share any more information, per-say, that hasn't already been discussed.

As for Not being able to listen to shortwave, the Government never was a real fan of Americans listening to broadcasts outside the US (no matter what they tell you) SW or not. If BPL makes it either impossible or that much more difficult, their mind set is Oh well, that's one source of multiple potentially "anti-government propaganda" (as I'm sure they see it sometimes) sources that Americans will not be able to tune into.

I wish I had a better viewpoint to offer, but Unfortunately I don't.

Left alone things only get worse, You have to MAKE them better!

••••••
moonpuppy (banned)
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD

moonpuppy (banned)

Member

What the lawsuits fly........

When the interference is documented and substatiated, I wonder how long before the City of Manassas realizes they made the wrong decision. Any money coming in might go right out defending itself with the lawsuits that will be coming.

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wtansill
Ncc1701
join:2000-10-10
Falls Church, VA

1 recommendation

wtansill

Member

So -- what happens next?

Let's say that Manassas goes ahead and factors the anticipated revenue into their budget, grants licenses, and lets BPL crank up. What happens if, after the fact, interference occurs as predicted, the FCC is notified, and the service is shut down? Not only has every subscriber been screwed on their contracts, but they'll have been screwed twice, since they'll have to make up any budget shortfalls. There's nothing like good government, and this is nothing like good government.

Brianv5
Low Level Functionary
Premium Member
join:2001-01-20
Keyser, WV

Brianv5

Premium Member

Damn, I just moved from there!

Stuff always happens after I leave. They already had plenty of high speed options anyway. Decent prices, except for Verizon. Unless you take the PPPoE option, NOT. Cable wasn't bad but no upload. Power would have been nice to play with.
bobbinbob
join:2002-02-21
USA

bobbinbob

Member

Re: Damn, I just moved from there!

If they had all those other options, why did the city waste their money to duplicate existing private facilities ?

What a waste.

DaSneaky1D
what's up
MVM
join:2001-03-29
The Lou

DaSneaky1D

MVM

Forget HAMS....

Would any of you want a high frequency, high current signal on an unshielded medium running behind and into your house?

BPL is bad, bad, bad.

••••••
oldframe
Pipe Dreams
Premium Member
join:2003-07-26
Houston, TX

oldframe

Premium Member

competition

At least this will bring new competition to the local market, forcing current providers of more *traditional* services to lower their prices and raise their quality of service in order to compete. Remember, competition is ALWAYS better for the consumer.

frankenfeet
934 is 10-8
Premium Member
join:2001-10-14
Smiths Grove, KY

frankenfeet

Premium Member

Jumping the gun.

I feel like that because radio is the incumbent, they should be given the priority on the band their currently using. It's not like BPL's interference is something new. They've know about the problems for a while now. Why not use the 5 GHz band. Besides, it's not like that's going to be the only broadband provider in town. Personally, I don't use, nor care to use, ham radios. However I do think its unfair to push them out of the way for an unproven service that will likely cause more problems in the future. Just my 2 cents though.
markopoleo
join:2003-04-02
Bonne Terre, MO

markopoleo

Member

BPL is very compared to other solutions.

1. Fiber is not happening to ANY rural area anytime soon.
2. wireless is not very reliable when most small towns are tree invested, and you can't make hardly anything at it.
3. Electic grid is perfect for rural areas. The cost is low (don't listen to the HAM radio people who say its so expensive).
4. Everyone wins with BPL. Town (tax dollars), ISP (profit), electric company (more money for them), Customer (get broadband, and im SOME cases take a drop in electric bill if bundle with internet).

The only people who whine so far is radio people, and frankly they will just keep whining to no avail. Face it, we live in the USA, no FCC is going to say someone in rural american can't have Internet vs the person accross the street who can't talk on the HAM to Mr.truck driver on the road.

And don't get me started on people saying you have to have it for Emergency purposes. YOU DON'T. Thats absurd rumor started by...you guessed it. radio people.

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backfeed
is giving feedback
join:2002-12-16
Peru, IN

backfeed

Member

Really Stuck in the Middle

I am a ham... and an internet Junky....

The problem with the HF interference goes a lot farther than ham radio. The hf spectrum is used for military and private commercial uses. Also it the primary long distance method of communication for ships at sea and intercontinental aircraft.

I Also see this as the possible holy grail to get rural America out of the dark ages of dial up.

It will be very interesting to see if the system can be tailored to provide the high speed content without causing undue havok on the communications systems....

Will be watching this very closely...
David95037
join:2003-04-16
Morgan Hill, CA

David95037

Member

Problems in Germany with BPL (PLC/PLT)

Germany has three commercial BPL systems with 6,000 customers that have been operating (and polluting) for the last year.

Recently there was a meeting of the European regulators to discuss the request of the European BPL/PLC/PLT lobbyists to raise the level of permitted pollution from their systems.

The national delegations presented detailed and colorful PowerPoint presentations on the pollution issue except for the German delegation who presented a two page typed statement which opened with the appropriate pleasantries then got to the point.

“German Government does not regard a European legal framework which results in general freedom to use PLC as desirable at the present time, because Germany has a lot of negative experience with the compatibility of radio networks and line-bound networks. Initial findings about PLC applications suggest that, despite contrary assurances by the manufacturers, the ceilings in force nationally cannot be adhered to.”

Translated from the bureaucratic speak; “The PLC companies promised low emissions but in practice created lots of pollution and problems. The German Government has had enough of PLC and wants it gone”.

Why would we repeat the same mistakes?
[text was edited by author 2003-10-23 20:19:07]

Shrapnel64
Premium Member
join:2001-01-24
VA, USA

Shrapnel64

Premium Member

Re: Problems in Germany with BPL (PLC/PLT)

It's very nice to see that a not-so-populated area that doesn't have cable will be able to get some kind of internet access faster than the standard dial-up service. For $30/month, you can't go wrong since you will end up paying $23.95 for AOL, and if you have a second phone line, including taxes and such it comes out around the same price. I'll be sure to pass this info on to my friend who lives in Middlesex County.
David95037
join:2003-04-16
Morgan Hill, CA

1 recommendation

David95037

Member

BPL the sad history, the myths and true reality

First a little history (those that ignore history get to repeat the mistakes) BPL (AKA PLC/PLT/DPL) is a tired old legacy technology that has struggled with interference issues since it was first rolled out in Manchester, England in 1997 (one year before the introduction of DSL to Europe). Nortel designed the system. The UK authorities tolerated the interference for a time but when the emergency services traced interference to BPL it was shut down.

Development moved to Germany, Nortel struggled on and eventually decided that the interference issues could not be resolved. Siemens then took up the lead, after several thousand customers had been connected up, Siemens came to the same conclusion as Nortel and exited the business. The next company to enter the business was Ascom based in Switzerland. Then an Israeli company called Mainnet entered the BPL market using chips from a Spanish company called DS2.

Tests were made in Japan and the authorities banned BPL due to the interference problems. Next Finland shut down their BPL system due to interference problems.

By 2003 there were 7,000 users in Europe with a multitude of test sites all small scale. BPL customer growth was stagnant.

The U.S. was never considered a market for BPL because of the architecture of the electrical distribution system. In most of Northern Europe electrical distribution is underground with about 200~300 houses for each transformer. In the U.S. much of the electrical distribution is overhead with up to 6 houses sharing a transformer.

In what can only be described as a desperate last ditch attempt to sell product and survive, the BPL industry created a "phantom" product that answered the FCC's need for rural broadband. The myth was propagated that BPL was the answer to rural broadband deployment. The FCC commissioners bought the story, the press talked about Internet at every socket.

The reality is that of all the Internet distribution technologies BPL is the least suited to go any distance. Every 2,000 feet an expensive repeater in needed to boost the signals.

Now to the myths

Clean technology myth
Tales of interference had preceded BPLs arrival, the myth that the interference issue had been solved (first generation problem!) was told to anyone who would listen. The lobbyists were very successful, they managed to get an FCC commissioner to state that the interference complaints were "unsubstantiated". How the interference problem had been solved was not made clear.

The reality is that the interference is even worse than ever, the modulation technique has been changed so that the interference sounds like noise and for many users it will look like a faulty radio issue. Tracking the source and proving the cause will be difficult.

High speed myth
To add speed to the solution for rural broadband was "icing on the cake". To create the illusion of speed, trial/demo systems where set up where four or five users enthused about speeds in the megabit range. BPL is a shared system and real world results with typical economic user numbers are about 250K (Broadband? more like Midband).

In conclusion
The only people who will profit from BPL are the power companies who will roll out niche systems in the few markets where the economics make sense. It will only take a few systems to trash the radio spectrum for a substantial portion of the western hemisphere.

There are many better ways to provide Internet access, when the choices are rated, BPL but any test comes bottom of the list however you make the measurement.

CanOpener4
join:2003-06-23
Brooklyn, NY

CanOpener4

Member

Re: BPL the sad history, the myths and true realit

David95037 See Profile, Excellent explanation on the history of BPL. I did not know any of that and it is very amusing how different companies are failing at what the previous companies have already failed at.
mjcrocket
Mjc
join:2000-12-02
Abingdon, MD

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Re: BPL the sad history, the myths and true reality

said by David95037:
In the U.S. much of the electrical distribution is overhead with up to 6 houses sharing a transformer.
In many areas it is only ONE house per transformer!
David95037
join:2003-04-16
Morgan Hill, CA

David95037

Member

BPL is a useless technology for rural areas

The bogus claim that BPL is suitable choice for rural deployment is one of the many lies propagated by the BPL lobbyists. The BPL strategy is to get the FCC to allow the high levels of interference / pollution as the FCC is focused on getting broadband to communities that don’t have it

In reality, if the BPL lobbyists succeed, they will abandon the rural areas and immediately focus on the wealthy suburban markets that are profitable and already have cable and DSL (like Manassas).

DSL can work out to about ~ 16,000 feet from the central office. BPL can only go 2,000 feet from the BPL equivalent of a DSLAM, then it needs an expensive repeater installed by an linesman trained to work with 11,000 volt cables. So for a 16,000 foot run 8 BPL repeaters are needed.
At the customer’s pole transformer a bridge needs to be installed to couple the signals from the 11,000 volt line to your 110 volt line, if this bridge fails, say from a lightning strike you will have 11,000 volts on all of your outlets.

However the math is worked, there is no way the power companies can implement this vast array of expensive equipment in rural areas with any hope of meeting the projected pricing.

The existing DSL broadband technology is proven and could be provided to almost everyone who has a phone, the barriers are political not technical. The solution to universal broadband lies in ensuring the phone companies serve all of their customers equally. BPL is a broken technology that is a pure distraction to the objective of universal broadband.

•••
David95037

1 recommendation

David95037

Member

BPL failed and banned worldwide

So far the BPL score card (rap sheet) is as follows;

Japan, Banned, major interference problems.
»www.jarl.or.jp/English/4 ··· 0208.htm

Finland, Banned, major interference problems.
»www.ficora.fi/2001/en/vu ··· esti.asp

Singapore, Failed, too expensive.
»www.channelnewsasia.com/ ··· /1/.html

Holland, Failed, too expensive and interference problems.
»www.darc.de/referate/aus ··· 0403.pdf

Austria, 3 systems failed, 1 still polluting, 70 complaints.
»svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod ··· 14683100

The remaining “trial” systems are trying and struggling and there has not been a single large scale commercial deployment.

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana

MRNVGVUP
join:2003-04-12
Sharon, PA

MRNVGVUP

Member

Re: BPL failed and banned worldwide

Abraham Lincoln failed a lot too...

Remember him? The guy that became president?

All great things, discoveries, and ideas have seen their "trials" and tribulations problematic at the least before success (or at least a majority of them).

Our own paten office once was to close. Thinking "..everying useful has already been invented.."

Sill now that you hear that.. but back then people, many, agreed.

Keep an open, determined, and goal oriented mindset and YOU too will be a success, as the projects YOU have/are/will offer to us.

peace

ps. your quote....Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana

Well, who says they are ignoring history?
[text was edited by author 2003-10-26 22:17:16]
David95037
join:2003-04-16
Morgan Hill, CA

David95037

Member

Red Cross Unit Compliments Ham Radio Assistance

Red Cross Unit Compliments Amateur Radio Assistance During Isabel:

Ham radio's role has drawn compliments from the American Red Cross of Central Maryland, which praised the amateurs' dedication.

"I want to thank the Amateur Radio Emergency Service (ARES) and the amateur radio community for coming out and supporting the American Red Cross over the critical 72 hours when Hurricane Isabel passed over Maryland," said Frank M. Eilbacher, KC0EKL, a Red Cross disaster communications lead. "We recognize you took time away from your families and, for some of you, your own personal disasters to support us."

During the storm's peak on September 18, Eilbacher said, electrical power and telecommunication problems abounded, but ham radio operators "filled the gap providing a crucial communication link between Red Cross chapters and shelter locations." Amateurs in the storm-struck region staffed state and county emergency operating centers and shelters, as well as the Maryland/Delaware American Red Cross Hurricane Watch Center.

The Salvation Army also has responded to affected areas including North Carolina, where Hurricane Isabel came ashore September 18. Salvation Army Team Emergency Radio Network (SATERN) volunteer Carlos Varon, K2LCV, from Flushing, New York, this week accompanied two Salvation Army canteen units from New York City to Morehead City, encountering heavy rain and wind on the way.

Varon, who took along his "orange box" portable ham station, reports the Salvation Army has been operating up to a half dozen field canteens. Carteret County Emergency Coordinator Rich Wright, KR4NU, and his ARES team have been supporting the SATERN operation. Operators were deployed this week to provide communication between the canteens and the local command post. Plans call for expanding the operation to shadows some Salvation Army officers. Varon has been working out of a Salvation Army warehouse facility, expediting the deployment of necessities bound for storm victims.

rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA

1 recommendation

rf_engineer

Member

BPL is Viable Technology

....and other myths dispelled »www.qrpis.org/~k3ng/bpl.html .

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium Member
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

dvd536

Premium Member

Half a megabit!

Big whoopdee-doo. too slow and the side effect is too great (Interference). great for areas that have NO broadband options whatsoever but wouldnt do very well in areas where there are other options.

Kulock
@iwaynet.net

Kulock

Anon

Re: Half a megabit!

When your only current options are expensive and even slower Satellite (which is worthless for online gaming) and blazing fast 3.0k downloads and constant drops from your wonderful dial-up connection, 500kbps seems like a GODSEND.
Nighttime5
join:2001-11-30

Nighttime5

Member

Wonder how long.

Here we go again. The old saying goes you can lead a horse to water but cant make him drink.

Its not just the spectrium that hams use in the 2 to 80mhz region but there are a lot of other users there that are screaming about this stupid idea.

Its not just that there have been test all over the world that have failed big time. Both for cost and implimtation problems.

But it shows how many clueless, short sighted and greed people are in the world. Its like a group of people trying to tell a person that "your boat is sinking" and all they can respond is "I can finaly sail now!" The objectivity of the person is so closed as to be a danger to themselves and everyone else. Look at people trying to save some foolish person from drounding that cossed a stream during a flood just because they wanted save a few minutes and distance in travel.

I remember working at a electronic company late 1970. There was a pretty strange street in front that was more of a sharp "V" shape than flat. During one winter we had a lot of rain and a small dam had broken from a housing develment up the nearby hill. Fill this street up to the curb. If you did not know about how sharp the street angle was you would swear it was prety flat. We were taking a break that afternoon admiring the water filling the street when a person in a car came through the allyway feeding that street. Passsing some signs stating flooded street ahead we had put out. They took one look and desided to cross. We shouted "dont" but they guned it and went anyway. They got as far as the middle of the street and sunk down to the window level on the car! It was a pretty steep street. We call rescue and they finaly got them out.

The catch is when you have mutiple nation, companies, groups etc. screaming this wont work you should listen! It not to hear outselves talking but wanting to warn about a real major problem.

rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA

rf_engineer

Member

Re: Wonder how long.

said by Nighttime5:
Here we go again.
We shouted "dont" but they guned it and went anyway. They got as far as the middle of the street and sunk down to the window level on the car! It was a pretty steep street. We call rescue and they finaly got them out.

This reminds me of that Chevy Chase movie when they were yelling to the car going to wrong way on the freeway.

"YOU'RE GOING THE WRONG WAY!"

"How do they know which way we're going?"



It's time Broadband Reports changes its name to BPL Reports. Let's see...oh..someone snagged bplreports.com already. A company with Powerline in its name. Too late

Goody
K3NG
Nighttime5
join:2001-11-30

Nighttime5

Member

That was so dumb for them to do! Was funny in the effect of a Rod Runner/Coyote cartoon action of the car shooting about 1/2 way then slowly flooded and sinking into the water.

I guess will wait and let them have their train wreck. I guess its the only way they will realize this is a dead horse.

revrus
join:2002-07-14
Chillicothe, OH

revrus

Member

Just wish there was some way to get broadband

Out here in the sticks. Six miles from cable and 2 miles from DSL. Different providers.
I just wish some one could figure out a way to get us faster connections. I average 19-24 k all the time.
I used to run Fire EMS and the hams were a lot of help.
There has to be a way to make it economically possible to get BB out in these areas. It was done for electric and for county water systems so why not broadband? So our children can have the advantages these others do?

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insomniac84
join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN

insomniac84

Member

It really is not a good technology

Speeds of 400-500k are just pathetic. The BPL that runs in the 5Ghz should be the only thing people want. Shouldn't cost any more than the shit version, but you can get fast speeds. Also if BPL does cause interference it better be interfering with something that matters like police, hospitals, military, etc. If someone says that their ham radio won't work with this new technology, well too bad. A hobby as useless as ham radios shouldn't have precedent over anything. I also like how all the proHAM people make fun of people's grammar in posts. If you even have to use something that stupid to help back up your point, then you have to be a fucking retard.

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N0JCG
join:2003-07-18
Minneapolis, MN

N0JCG

Member

Thowing down the gauntlet

I guess it had to come to this, somewhere. IMHO, bring on the deployment then stand back as every wart in the BPL scheme shows its ugly face. They won't be able to hide it like they did in the trials. For example;
1. Interference complaints (remember, the trials didn't have any?).
2. Ingress problems (anybody want to work 100W mobile in Manassas?).
3. The hard spotlight of the media (Wolf Blitzer standing on a Manassas street, Sony shortwave in hand, hearing the "geiger counter" sound of downloads drowning out WWV).

Let the games begin!

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