Throwing Crumbs From the TableAre downstream speed hikes enough? ( old news - 01:31PM Friday Oct 03 2003) tags: competition · Op/Ed · cableTipped by Karl Bode  Several months after the fact, the media has discovered that cable speeds are increasing; but is the move what consumers want, and will it be enough to fend off a DSL price war?. Though the news wires are buzzing with news of downstream speed increases; it's not a new revelation. We've been discussing the industry wide shift to higher speed tiers for months; DSLPrime mentioned Comcast's intentions as early as May of this year. The press releases by Comcast, Roadrunner and others are having the desired effect; they're generating the marketing idea that cable now offers twice the speeds - a true value to consumers. But with cable rates endlessly rising should consumers clap jubilantly that their providers finally gave them a little something in return? Not that the industry should look a gift horse in the mouth, but many users and analysts simply aren't impressed. "It's a nice marketing move, but it doesn't do much to expand broadband to a wider market," says Kinetic analyst Michael W. Harris, to the Washington Post. "If the consumer isn't ready to buy at 1.5 megs, switching to 3 isn't going to change their mind. A lot of users simply don't need that much Internet."A growing number of industry reports have slammed the industry for rate hikes. Groups like the Consumer's Union filed a series of scathing attacks last year (see .pdf report), claiming that the cable industry was taking advantage of their monopoly position, and that price hikes were based primarily in greed, not necessity. "We think this is largely because cable companies have no real competition in their communities" says Consumers Union rep, David Butler. A recent PIRG report offers up some additional data. The cable industry's operating margin is expected to be nearly $19 billion for 2002, up nearly 60 percent from 1997. Operating revenues per subscriber have jumped to $273 per year in 2002 from $190 in 1996. Comcast alone has seen a 36 percent increase in operating cash flow, with 36.5 percent profit in the second quarter of 2003, despite a sluggish economy and rising programming costs. The FCC indicates that rates for basic cable packages have soared 8.2%, ($40.11 a month on average), while the cost of living was up 1.5%. Senator John McCain, who has been one of the only vocal politicians on this issue, warned the industry that they were "gouging" American consumers and that he'd be focusing on the issue in coming months. According to the latest industry numbers, the recent DSL price reductions are so far only an irritating gnat in the face of the cable industry. The day will come when the bell's (and possibly fiber wielding utilities and PLC operators) give them ample competition. But until that day comes the cable industry is apparently content to simply throw crumbs from the profit table. 3Mbps is nice; granted, but it's costing providers very little to provide, and it means little to communities that have seen their cable bills increase countless times over the past several years. What's holding broadband back from the mainstream market isn't limited downstream bandwidth; a lack of compelling content in the eyes of the typical web user indicates that 1.5Mbps will serve them well for the time being. What's holding broadband back from broader market adoption is the cost, and what's holding back cost reduction certainly is not the fact that the technology is expensive to provide for MSO's. With cable still pulling in 67% of all new broadband adoptees (DSL distance limitations and a stigma that it's a more 'complicated' technology hold it back) the ball for price reduction lies in the court of the cable industry. The recent speed increases are more PR product than improvement. Flyers can now proudly proclaim cable offers "Double the speed of DSL"; a fleeting flick of the wrist against the DSL gnat that will, undoubtedly, progressively grow in size (DSL leads cable by a significant margin in a growing number of countries). The broadband industry simply won't explode until competition forces its major player to trim the fat and hand consumers some monthly fiscal relief. You'll be able to note the arrival of that competition by a push among cable industry insiders to trim sports channels off of cable line-ups, and a more serious push to embrace a la carte programming packages (the industry blames growing sports and programming costs for the hikes). Until then, crumbs and 3Mbps speeds (with limits set on how much you can download) are what you'll get to tide you over. The majority of broadband consumers in our forums want improved upstream speeds, price reductions, and perhaps added security and other services. Feel free to speak your mind on what you'd most like to see from your provider in our latest Broadband Reports poll. Related:- Yeah, Who Wants Accurate Broadband Stats Anyway
- Beating Cable in Customer Satisfaction Is No Achievement
- Kevin Martin Doesn't Hate Cable, He Just Loves Ma Bell
- FCC Moves To Block Comcast Growth
- Craig Moffett: Network Upgrades Are For Ninnies
- Remember How 'Franchise Reform' Was Going To Lower Cable Rates?
- Verizon Promises Not To Cherry Pick Philadelphia
- Scott Cleland: Google Using 21x The Bandwidth They Pay For
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  Apophis Jaffa Kree Premium join:2001-12-27 Holmen, WI clubs:  | WE WANT MORE UPLOAD We want more upload oh, and drop that server clause as well... | |
|  |   plencnerb Premium join:2000-09-25 Kenosha, WI clubs:
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: WE WANT MORE UPLOAD said by Apophis : We want more upload oh, and drop that server clause as well...
I agree. I currently have no problems with my current speed (1800/256), but more of either one would be nice. With them doubling the download, that will make getting OS patches, updates, etc that much faster. I can't see them doubling the download (to 512), but it would be nice if they gave us another 128 down (to 384).
My problem right now is the use of Servers. The argument I always hear why an ISP does not allow/like its users to run servers is that they eat up all the upstream bandwidth. Yet, everyone is allowed to run P2P servers 24/7/365 and no one says Boo to them.
Either force everyone on a given ISP to stop running P2P apps, or allow the rest of us the freedom to run other server applications (Web, FTP, etc). To me, someone running a web site or FTP server 24/7 is the same as someone running a P2P server. They both are using upload, so what difference does it make.
If Comcast would allow residential customers this freedom, I would be very happy with my service. -- ============================ --Brian Plencner E-Mail: saursesCancer@comcast.net Note: Kill Cancer to Reply via e-mail | |
|  |  |   nklb Premium join:2000-11-17 Ypsilanti, MI clubs:
| Re: WE WANT MORE UPLOAD said by plencnerb : To me, someone running a web site or FTP server 24/7 is the same as someone running a P2P server. They both are using upload, so what difference does it make.
In fact, most people who run web/ftp for personal use don't get NEARLY as much traffic as someone who runs p2p. p2p = bandwidth hungry, whereas with a web server you generally only see traffic on occasion when someone stumbles onto the site.
Either web or ftp at full load would be identical to p2p in that respect, but the vast majority don't see anywhere near full load. I only see a couple hundred hits a day to mine :-/ -- for all your Linux questions | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  jphhock
join:2003-09-01 Phoenix, AZ | I think you have your UPLOAD and DOWNLOAD numbers reversed. | |
|  |  B777300
join:2002-01-02 | depends what kind of server, p2p is extremely hungry, I can do like 5 gb total of bothways in less than 24 hours(P.S kazaa is not really p2p, its like mini-p2p for newbies, the real thing is DC++). | |
|  |  |  |  |   dvd536 as Mr. Pink as they come Premium join:2001-04-27 Phoenix, AZ
| Re: WE WANT MORE UPLOAD said by Omega : I agree.
I am only running 128kbit upload. This is pathetic for uploading to FTP, or any site in general.
It does not affect my gaming yet, but I am pretty sure it will with the continued bandwith increases gaming requires.
If they can give us so much download, why can't they give us more upload?
how do you know its not affecting your gaming? more upload would definately make it more responsive. -- You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth | |
|   maximus_808 Proud Veteran Premium join:2001-08-27 Green Cove Springs, FL clubs:
| I cant wait to switch.... When DirectvDSL went under I went to Speakeasy..mostly based on their reputation around this site. I am now waiting for my contract to be up so i can make the switch to Comcast. I pay close to 70$ a month for 1500/128... I will get double both up and down for almost 30$ less. For the money i pay simply having great tech support is not enough to justify it in my opinion. -- Folders Wanted.."We don't condone copyright infringement, but it's time for the RIAA's winged monkeys to fly back to the castle and leave the Munchkins alone" | |
|  |   jose3030 Premium join:1999-08-17 Manassas, VA | Re: I cant wait to switch.... I'm like the opposite of you.
I am slated to get 3mb/down, 256k/up and I cant wait to go to DSL.
Comcast is gonna be ruling w/ an iron fist for "people downloading too much". | |
|  |  |   maximus_808 Proud Veteran Premium join:2001-08-27 Green Cove Springs, FL clubs: | Re: I cant wait to switch.... I do not consider myself or my family heavy downloaders...a lot of surfing ....some music...some streaming ..but nothing that would put us anywhere near the top of anyones usage charts. | |
|  |  |  |  Angrychair
join:2000-09-20 Jacksonville, FL | Re: I cant wait to switch.... You might be shocked at how much your household uses. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   Voyager2K2
join:2001-10-04 Wayne, PA
| said by jose3030 : I'm like the opposite of you.
I am slated to get 3mb/down, 256k/up and I cant wait to go to DSL.
Comcast is gonna be ruling w/ an iron fist for "people downloading too much".
Amen brother. Those cable speed upgrades are like holding a carrot out on a stick. Eat the carrot and first you get a nastygram, then they pull your service.
I'll stick with my good ol' ILEC supplied ADSL. The only time I have to communicate with VOL is when something goes amiss and that is very infrequently. I am happy as a clam with 1500/384 and no one looking over my shoulder. | |
|  |  vic102482 Premium join:2002-04-30 Upper Marlboro, MD
·Verizon FIOS
edited
| said by maximus_808 : When DirectvDSL went under I went to Speakeasy..mostly based on their reputation around this site. I am now waiting for my contract to be up so i can make the switch to Comcast. I pay close to 70$ a month for 1500/128... I will get double both up and down for almost 30$ less. For the money i pay simply having great tech support is not enough to justify it in my opinion.
If you have direct tv, those prices wont go down unless you switch your TV to comcast as well. -- I tie a rope around my penis and jump from a tree, don't you wanna grow up to be just like me!!!! [text was edited by author 2003-10-03 14:49:17] | |
|  |  |  cuindy
join:2000-07-21 Aurora, OH
| Re: I cant wait to switch.... Do not forget Cheap DSL requires you to have SBC or another Baby Bell for phone service and you are locked into them. Switch to a 3rd party telco and they drop your DSL. I save as much on with cheap TalkAmerica Plan to cover the base cost of Comcast Limited Basic Cable ($12.95+taxes). Plus, if you want to dump local land-line and go Cellular you are out of luck with DSL. FYI in Indy the Limited Basic has all local plus others to made a total of 24 channels. Even If I did get a dish, I would keep the Cable service for local and it works on every TV. | |
|   damonlab Premium join:2001-05-02 Detroit, MI clubs: 
edited
| More upload please They outright lie in the commercials. They show high quality video conferencing in the commercials. With current upload limitations, it is difficult to have a video conference and impossible to have a high quality video conference. With current upload limitations, it is difficult to share large files.
Edit- also... unless they remove download caps, faster download speed will just allow people to hit their monthly cap faster. [text was edited by author 2003-10-03 13:10:13] | |
|  |  |  Tophet
join:2002-11-30 Verona, PA | Fight Nice, Throw Bricks Here Here! I haven't maxed out my 1.5mb download in a while, but I have always maxed out my lousy 128Kb upload. | |
|   Matt You can't fix stupid Premium join:2003-07-20 Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
·Corporate Colocation
| Downstream is nice..... Honestly, I won't complain that TW has recently increased my download speed to 3Mbps, but it still takes AGES if I want to do the "cool" things I am supposed to be able to do with broadband.
Try running a live webcam chat with a friend at anything above 1 frame per second, 240x200 size and watch your browsing come to a halt and your image refresh like you had a strobe light flashing behind you.
We have enough downstream. I would HAPPILY give my 1 Mbps downstream increase back to TW for, oh, say, HALF that added to my upstream.
768Kbit upstream sounds good to me. 1 Mbps EVEN BETTER.
We have a 768 SDSL line at work and while downloading files is painfully slow, I am still amazed at anything I upload. It is noticeably faster.
384Kbps is just not enough upload to get the "true" broadband experience. -- No woman would listen to you talk if she didn't know it was her turn next. | |
|  |  B777300
join:2002-01-02 | Re: Downstream is nice..... 384 kbps is not that bad, some people are stuck with 128kbps. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   UnKown The Underground Network
join:2002-09-08 Orlando, FL | Re: Downstream is nice..... i run a remote desktop program that utilizes my whole upload bandwidth but its to my 100mbits web server, so in turn im controling that, which is fun with uploading and downloading.  | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  B777300
join:2002-01-02 | yeah im stuck with 128kbps for a long time, sending a 10 mb file to a friend over msn takes a long time, my line sync is 128 kbps upload, i get 114 kbps upload in speed tests, i just cant get any better, already paying $50. | |
|  |   dvd536 as Mr. Pink as they come Premium join:2001-04-27 Phoenix, AZ
| TW used to give 8000/768. then as their network got flooded with more users they capped it to 3000/384 then to 2000/384 and now theyre increasing it back to 3mbit and sounding all cheery that theyre upgrading you. they are just simply giving back what you once had. - of course with their bytecaps, the speed you are getting point is moot. more speed just means you hit your bytecaps faster. -- You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth | |
|  |   tommygunz
@67.112.x.x | You are spoiled-rotten! I would kill for 256 upload!! You are complainign about 384????? What silver sppon fed you all these "broadband years"? Will they adopt? :O) | |
|   kba4
join:2001-10-23 Akron, OH
·RoadRunner Cable
| so what if we can download more, faster with most uploads capped well below the top download speeds now available to some cable users, what's the point of really using the connection to its potential? if my friend can't upload the file to me faster, why let me download faster? true, it allows more connections to fill up the stream, but who is supplying the high-bandwidth links: universities (increasingly capped), and the best websites (who pay for the bandwidth). i thought by now cable users would have outdone anything dsl offers and more. i thought we'd be on AIM or a p2p app blowing the others away. and i knew there'd be regular pricing hikes and no official support for the users' real intents but i didn't think things would become so stingy. they could give me 10Mbps down (and they can right now, after 10yrs of 'upgrades' and development there's no reason it can't be done) but if i can't get a transfer of 10Mbps, what's the point? even 10 1Mbps downloads isn't anything fancy. i want to trade files and use my connection to it's true potential (hell i'd be happy with half at this point); the cableco's are reeling in the cash and not providing the good value we deserve. and i'm not referring to OOL, i'm on RR and right now (and for the past 5 years) it SUCKS... less than 100Kbps upload and now 3Mbps down. why not 300-500Kbps up and 1.5-2Mbps down? why not symmetrical in the first place, it seems that would be more efficient a design. -- the USA is a weapon of mass destruction. | |
|  nasadude
join:2001-10-05 Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| IMO, the real reason for the increase I think the real reason they are increasing the downstream (and why they doubled the upstream not too long ago) is to get ready for VOIP. They are getting some PR mileage out of the increase, but I will bet money that the reason for the increase isn't to look like a better deal versus DSL, but for VOIP rollout. | |
|  |  B777300
join:2002-01-02
| Re: IMO, the real reason for the increase said by nasadude : I think the real reason they are increasing the downstream (and why they doubled the upstream not too long ago) is to get ready for VOIP. They are getting some PR mileage out of the increase, but I will bet money that the reason for the increase isn't to look like a better deal versus DSL, but for VOIP rollout.
VoIP doesnt need so much bandwidth. 56/56 (kilobits per second) should be fine for VoIP. | |
|  |   J D McDorce Premium join:2001-12-29 Westland, MI
| Doubling the upstream was more of a case of a choice between pissing off 60% of your customers versus convincing 40% of their customers that they are getting a gift, since all of the ATTBI customers had at least 256 while the legacy Comcast customers had 128 prior to Comcast's purchase of AT&T Broadband. One could also say the bump in the upload in legacy regions cost the majority of customers $3 per month.
I don't see the increase in downstream bandwidth as being of any benefit to plans for VoIP, in fact, the additional congestion of existing bandwidth due to the increase may actually prove to be detrimental to MSO-offered VoIP. In Comcast's case, I think that you'll see a move to DOCSIS 1.1 and QAM 256 on the downstream prior to Comcast offering VoIP on a system-wide basis. | |
|   Stewy85 Premium join:2003-01-16 Sharon, WI clubs: | 384 Well i would be happy right now with just 384 upload speed. | |
|  |   Anti_Cyrix Premium join:2003-03-06 Sacramento, CA | Re: 384 Yes, i see you are on charter pipeline too. I would be happy even with 256k upload!
I wonder if someday SBC makes an RT in my area, would i be able to get Cyberonic Internet (DSL) with the 768k upload? | |
|   Jason Levine Premium join:2001-07-13 Albany, NY
| Lower the prices or give tiered access RR recently went to 3Mbps. While that's nice, I really don't notice a speed difference. I consider myself an above average downloader (not in the "bandwidth hog" range, just above average), yet I really can't use all of that 3Mbps. (Closest I get is when I'm downloading the log files from my websites.)
I'd rather go back to 1.5Mbps and get half off my bill. Ok, maybe they would price it slightly less than half off so people would say "Oooh. Twice the speed for less than twice the cost." Still, $25 instead of $45 would be very nice.
Sure, they would lose $20 or so a month from me, but I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't sign up because $45 a month is too pricey for them. They'd be more likely to sign up if they could get cable modem speeds for dial-up prices. -- -Jason Levine http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/ http://www.PCQandA.com/ http://www.urateit.com/ | |
|   ChargerMike Premium join:2001-06-10 Edgerton, WI | LIES LIES LIES!
I find that our "increased" down load is worthless. Sure when web browsing pages load fast but try to down load a large file or play an online game and that 128 upstream chokes off your download and sends your pings to heck. | |
|  |  B777300
join:2002-01-02 | Re: LIES LIES LIES! I was on 1500 kbps/256 kbps right now, i would switch to 768/768 | |
|  |  mbkowns Got Bandwidth?
join:2003-07-01 Riverside, CA
| HAHA SIKE! "they're generating the marketing idea that cable now offers twice the speeds"
Depends on which direction your refering to! My DSL is 1.5/768! With dsl you have more options cable companies are pricks not offering higher upstream.
-- - MBK (AIM = IllMBKllI) | |
|  |   J D McDorce Premium join:2001-12-29 Westland, MI
| Re: HAHA SIKE! Then I don't even need to mention my 6M/608 DSL service 
Speed comparison is for downloads only and is compared to 640Kbps DSL.
Ah, the old freaking fine print trick... | |
|   damonlab Premium join:2001-05-02 Detroit, MI clubs: 
| We need some email addys and a form letter... We need the email addresses of all major cable companies CEOs. Comcast, Charter, Adelphia, RoadRunner, Cox, etc.
Then we need a form letter saying something along the lines of:
Thanks for my increasing my download speed by another mb/s. Could you please remove your download caps and increase my upload speed by the same amount? -- Our deficit is the highest is has ever been. Unemployment is through the roof. We invaded a country that could not defend itself. The list goes on and on. *****Vote against George W. Bush in 2004.***** | |
|   Augustus III If Only Rome Could See Us Now....
join:2001-01-25 Gainesville, GA
| . it's actually much easier for dsl providers to tailor different packages. cable.. well it all pretty much runs together, so having different speeds on each node etc is rather demanding.
But i am sure most, 3 months from now will be saying 3 down is better than 1.5 regardless of your actual needs cable providers now it, else they wouldn't be upgrading you.
let me speculate here.. they increase to 3mbps, and yet increase the prices. now as many said, few will ever come to use near 3mbps, so on the whole, higher prices + more bandwidth - unused bandwidth = profit.
makes sense in a weird kind of way. | |
|  |  bobbinbob
join:2002-02-21 USA | Re: . Yup, sounds plausible to me. | |
|  bobbinbob
join:2002-02-21 USA
| Do any of you know how a cable modem system works ? From the discussion, I don't think so.
The CMTS (Cable Modem Termination System) has way more downstream capacity than upstream. It is asymmetrical. On a per node basis, it is like 30mb down and 10mb up. The upload stream is carried in the 5-42 mhz band. This band is very RF noisy so they have to use lower speed modulation techniques to provide a reliable data stream.
They have to carefully control the upstream speeds to not overload the system. When you add in their desire to provide reliable voice quality on telephony, then you really have to control the upstream.
The upstream speed limitations are a direct result of technical limitations in the CMTS and Cable Plant to deliver higher speeds.
I have heard of some cable companies offering higher Upload speeds, but they have to be doing some major traffic shaping, have very small node sizes or they just don't care about the consistency of the upload. | |
|  |  See 10 replies to this post | |
 Zorglub
join:2000-11-18 Fremont, CA
| nobody really cares it seems The bottleneck is the upload and will remain for a while. All we can hope for is for DSL to increase its reach to compete head on with cable.
I switched from cable to DSL a few months back when Comcast decided to jack up my bill by $15, but not everybody is lucky enough to have that kind of choice. | |
|   Cougar311
join:2002-07-18 USA | More upload! Yes, a little more upload speed and come down on the price about 15 bucks and I will be happy!!! -Comcast.. | |
|  Stumbles
join:2002-12-17 Port Saint Lucie, FL | Catchy Title The speed increase is nice but would rather have seen a price reduction. | |
|  |  |   Unit649 I B U, Who U B? Premium join:2000-01-22 Stockton, CA
·Comcast
| Re: Downstream speed hikes with caps are meaningless The method to their madness: they will giveth the download, then in a few months (don't they usually do rate increases around Feb?) the new pricing structure will come about-base rate, then X dollars per gig overage charges. With a large downstream pipe, it won't be too hard to 'accidentally' cross this line if you do more than read email and open a few websites a day.....
Get everyone used to the nice speed, get them all on there downloading like crazy, then cut them off at the knees-either stop your habits, or pay the price.
Doing it now is perfect, they will have 3 months to get into that mood before the new price structure announcement comes out  -- U ::::Founder, ForeverChat IRC Network :::: »www.foreverchat.net | |
|  |  |   onliners450 Net Addicted, Period. Premium join:2002-12-19 Lebanon, CT
| Re: Downstream speed hikes with caps are meaningless This is exactly what I believe Charter is planning right now.In March new Price plans will come out and those lucky(or unlucky) enough to get the 2Mbps given to them, will be screwed. I have called and asked but they will not confirm the price hike, but you can bet they will do it.That is why Those in the Newtown Connecticut area system are getting their 2 Mpps given to them right now. Look at this letter that they sent to me(even though it does not apply to me, sigh...). What do you think they are going to do in March? Hand out candy?NO,they will up your bill. -- If you have to ask why I'm always online you wouldn't understand. | |
|  |  |  |   Unit649 I B U, Who U B? Premium join:2000-01-22 Stockton, CA
·Comcast
| Re: Downstream speed hikes with caps are meaningless It definetely wouldn't shock me-its not as if they haven't set a precedant of doing this kinda stuff before you know. Thats why I think its going to happen-and they do it the usual way. Same with new channels, give them for free for a few months, then move them into an "advanced" package for a "small monthly fee" increase. -- U ::::Founder, ForeverChat IRC Network :::: »www.foreverchat.net | |
|  keyboard5684
join:2001-08-01 Youngsville, PA
·WestPAnet Inc.
·WestPAnet Inc. CA..
·Verizon Online DSL
| Bias Article Isn't this article considerably pro-dsl? Is it necessary to slam cable so much? Does broadbandreports.com have some sort of motive here?
When was the last time there was an article featured here that was extremely positive about cable? I see a considerable amount of positive announcements about companies like speakeasy.net but very negative comments about cable companies.
There are a ton of great cable companies providing good services out there at fair prices. There are also alot of DSL providers not completely pulling there weight. | |
|  |   richb01803 Rich
join:2001-02-14 02100
| Re: Bias Article said by keyboard5684 : Is it necessary to slam cable so much? Does broadbandreports.com have some sort of motive here?
Indeed. Sometimes I wonder. I've worked only on the DSL side of the business, and what I found was that the technology just plain SUCKED. First were the Northpoint and Bell Atlantic deployment disasters, where the telco could deliver a line in anything less than several weeks, and couldn't keep things running reliably. Then I went off and worked at an equipment manufacturer, and saw all the Q/A testing problems with so many incompatible products and software releases.
Cable is beating DSL for a very good reason: it's better. The equipment is more standardized and has greater future potential over existing infrastructure.
Sure, we can rant about how bad the companies that deliver DSL or cable are. Both are just about equally evil. What I care about is the technology.
I'm posting this through what may be the oldest cable head-end in the nation, lit up by Continental cable on PSI Internet about 9 years ago. It's just plain solid, has been through about 5 corporate buyouts but never goes down and has thus far never let me down.
I used to deploy Internet for a living, thankfully I don't do that anymore, and thankfully the 'net is there when I want it. | |
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