Florida LAN TaxState works system to get at VoIP ( old news - 11:23AM Tuesday Aug 26 2003) tags: business · legislationSlashdot and the Orlando Business Journal chime in on some outlandish Florida tax plans we first reported back in July; plans that could impose new taxes on business networks and VoIP providers. - Like all states desperate for funds, there's an endless drive to find new sources of revenue. In this instance, Florida lawmakers are looking to tax everything they can get their hands on, including a potential 9.17 percent state tax on business LAN's. While the idea has been floating around for some time, the potential LAN tax only recently has gotten the attention of Florida industry. The Orlando Business Journal article misses much of the bigger picture, however. According to documents we've received (see below), the state is broadly considering taxing any business network that transmits voice or data (smile for the camera, VoIP). According to proposed rule 12A-19.036, "Substitute Communications Systems" would be subject to State of Florida Communication Tax (9.17%), and local communication tax (5% to6%). According to the documents, "Substitute Communications Systems" are defined as "any system that is used for voice or data, that connects multiple users with the use of Switching or Routing Technology". As it stands now, the vague language of the ruling could also mean that any Florida resident who owns a home LAN (and incurs costs to maintain it) could also face new taxes. But that's not all. A second rule, 12A-19.002, outlines the state's plans to tax communication lines used for delivering Internet Access, breaking them down into two components; The communication component (local loop, T1 loop, etc.), and the internet access component. The communication component would be subject to Florida communication taxes, though taxing Internet Access becomes impossible with the recent passage of the Internet Tax Nondiscrimination Act. The goal of these new taxes ties into our recent debate over states regulating VoIP providers. Since VoIP providers usually operate outside the restrictions and taxes imposed on telcos, state's are doing what they can to get a piece of the pie. In Minnesota, the state PUC is forcing Vonage to adhere to telco guidelines. In Florida, the state is working the tax laws to be sure the tax man will be front and center as VoIP hits the mainstream, both in residential and office-to-office use. According to David Bruns, spokesman for the Florida Department of Revenue, he's "hoping we get a lot of attention paid to this and understand what impact would it have."We're guessing he'll get his wish. --- See (files are zipped pdf):
Notice of Proposed Rule Development Substitute Communication Systems (link)
Notice of Proposed Rule Development DSL Internet Access (link)
Tthe agenda for a July 31st meeting during which the ideas were discussed.
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ronpin
Imagine Reality
join:2002-12-06
Nirvana | This is what massive Federal tax cuts will get you My 0.02 | |
|  | joebear29
join:2003-07-20
Alabaster, AL
| Re: This is what massive Federal tax cuts will get you This what uncontrolled state spending gets you.
Besides, with the Federal tax cuts, the states are free to raise their own income tax rates. They just don't.
It's not like the Federal tax cuts forced them to raise a LAN tax.
[text was edited by author 2003-08-26 11:30:59] | |
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garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY
| Re: This is what massive Federal tax cuts will get you All states except for Vermont have balanced budget laws:
»slate.msn.com/id/2084993/
quote:
Alabama boasts the most stringent balanced-budget requirement. At the end of the fiscal year, if appropriations have exceeded revenues, the treasury is forbidden from disbursing any more funds. An official who dares dole out an extra cent can be punished with a $5,000 fine, two years in the clink, and impeachment. (No one has ever been so disciplined.)
The problem is, that expenses keep rising. Kinda hard to piss off the voters by saying their Medicare can't be funded anymore...that wouldn't work! | |
| | | | joebear29
join:2003-07-20
Alabaster, AL | Re: This is what massive Federal tax cuts will get you Yes, but tax revenues increase as well.
If the states had held spending increases to population growth + inflation, they would not be in fiscal crisis. | |
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garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY
| Re: This is what massive Federal tax cuts will get you said by joebear29  :
Yes, but tax revenues increase as well.
If the states had held spending increases to population growth + inflation, they would not be in fiscal crisis.
Yes, in the laboratory that sounds great.
In the real world, people who need Medicare aren't going to tolerate any caps on that spending, especially when the older generation has a LOT of political clout (AARP, anyone?) and vote in large numbers. Health care issues alone are going to bankrupt the whole country if we're not careful...and wishing it all away isn't going to work.
So-raise taxes to continue benefits, or cut benefits? Both are political landmines for politicians. | |
| | | | | | joebear29
join:2003-07-20
Alabaster, AL
| Re: This is what massive Federal tax cuts will get you said by garagerock :
Yes, in the laboratory that sounds great.
In the real world, people who need Medicare aren't going to tolerate any caps on that spending, especially when the older generation has a LOT of political clout (AARP, anyone?) and vote in large numbers. Health care issues alone are going to bankrupt the whole country if we're not careful...and wishing it all away isn't going to work.
So-raise taxes to continue benefits, or cut benefits? Both are political landmines for politicians.
So don't cap spending, and tax away.
What I objected to was blaming State budget deficits on Federal tax cuts. If anything, reduced Federal burdens on taxpayers gives the states more room to raise taxes. | |
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garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY
| Re: This is what massive Federal tax cuts will get you Ahhh, but therein lies the rub. Their expenses are always going to rise, and if federal revenues are down (as they are now), how can they raise income taxes without causing collateral political damage? Instead, they raise a knick-knack tax (cigarettes, booze, LAN's) to make up for the shortfall.
Far easier to do than raising income taxes. No state wants to be known as the state that rose income taxes so high it drove the population away (er, wait-isn't that California?) | |
| | | | | | | | lesopp
join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL
| Re: This is what massive Federal tax cuts will get you Florida voters amended the state constitution some years ago to bar the state from taxing income.
Florida used to get a good chunk of change from tourism revenues. Following 9-11 tourism fell and never completely recovered. Adding to that the tech bubble burst, jobs were lost and the economy went into a recession.
Finally, the voters in 2000 amended the state constitution to require the government build a high-speed rail system. In 2002 they again amended the state constitution to limit class sizes, along with some other dumb-ass amendments. The voters approved all these amendments without a thought as to how they would be funded. | |
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garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY
| Re: This is what massive Federal tax cuts will get you Sorry, that's not reality. Go ahead and cut those benefits...and see who gets handed their asses in the state legislature elections.
Sure, cut expenses for other things-but those Medicare benefits are going to run the whole country out of business when the Boomer generation starts retiring and needing those benefits. We are already experiencing this on a national level...oh wait, new stadiums for the football team are more important.
(God knows I won't comment on your "election" for governor....sheesh!) | |
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kilingspam
join:2001-04-30
San Jose, CA
| You are forgetting that California got ripped off with the fake energy crunch costing the state $38 billion dollars.
The judge only ordered $2 billion to be paid back.
What is wrong with that picture?
If someone raided your bank account of $36 billion dollars kinda hard to balance a budget huh?
Responsible tax cuts are fine if the Federal does it without corruption. Monies I pay in taxes to the feds that should be sent right back are going to pay for contracts signed for rebuilding Iraq. These fed contracts where handed out without any bidding. Hummmm, lets just hand a contract over to Cheneys old company without getting ANY QUOTES! Must be nice to spend my hard earned monies that way!
States are having to do these things because the Bush Admin (Feds) are ripping off every single american, or should I say all but the richest 1% that gave millions for Bush to be handed his seat by a court ruling and not by our votes.
Anyway, would one expect anything different from his brother Jeb? | |
| | | | | | | | joebear29
join:2003-07-20
Alabaster, AL
| Re: This is what massive Federal tax cuts will get you said by kilingspam :
You are forgetting that California got ripped off with the fake energy crunch costing the state $38 billion dollars.
The judge only ordered $2 billion to be paid back.
What is wrong with that picture?
If someone raided your bank account of $36 billion dollars kinda hard to balance a budget huh?
California did not lose 36 billion to a fake energy crisis. The crisi cam about because first it botched the deregulation by limiting the amount the utilities could charge then they locked themselves into long term contracts right before the prices went up.
Yes, there were some shenanigans, but most of the money lost was due to bad deregulation and foolish contracts.
quote:
Responsible tax cuts are fine if the Federal does it without corruption. Monies I pay in taxes to the feds that should be sent right back are going to pay for contracts signed for rebuilding Iraq. These fed contracts where handed out without any bidding. Hummmm, lets just hand a contract over to Cheneys old company without getting ANY QUOTES! Must be nice to spend my hard earned monies that way!
States are having to do these things because the Bush Admin (Feds) are ripping off every single american, or should I say all but the richest 1% that gave millions for Bush to be handed his seat by a court ruling and not by our votes.
Anyway, would one expect anything different from his brother Jeb?
Even accepting every word you say as true (Haliburton got a sweetheart contract, the tax cut mysteriously involved taking money from poor americans and giving it to rich americans), what does that have to do with state budget deficits? | |
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oliphant5
Got Identity?
Premium
join:2003-05-24
Corona, CA
| said by kilingspam :
You are forgetting that California got ripped off with the fake energy crunch costing the state $38 billion dollars.
The judge only ordered $2 billion to be paid back.
What is wrong with that picture?
If someone raided your bank account of $36 billion dollars kinda hard to balance a budget huh?
Responsible tax cuts are fine if the Federal does it without corruption. Monies I pay in taxes to the feds that should be sent right back are going to pay for contracts signed for rebuilding Iraq. These fed contracts where handed out without any bidding. Hummmm, lets just hand a contract over to Cheneys old company without getting ANY QUOTES! Must be nice to spend my hard earned monies that way!
States are having to do these things because the Bush Admin (Feds) are ripping off every single american, or should I say all but the richest 1% that gave millions for Bush to be handed his seat by a court ruling and not by our votes.
Anyway, would one expect anything different from his brother Jeb?
The energy costs aren't part of the budget. They are paid through higher energy rates. The energy distributors like Edison International and SDG&E are the ones who took the hit and now are getting paid back through higher rates. Edison International just announced a price rollback for large energy users because they have reclaimed a portion of their losses and it was large energy users who took the biggest increases (I pay, even as a residential user up to .25/kWh for electricity »Re: Tough Love for California? ).
The $50 billion (as there was initially a $12B surplus was solely caused by excessive spending including 44,000 new gov't jobs during what was supposed to be a hiring freeze. Revenue exceeded both population and inflation in the state while spending increases DOUBLED population and inflation.
The ones who raided the state for billions was Davis and his cronies in the legislature.
As for Halliburton, the contract was temporary (only to fight oil fires and assess damage to the Iraqi oil infrastructure and repair it if necessary, NOT FOR REBUILDING ALL OF IRAQ) and they were the only U.S. corporation who had the resources to do it. It wasn't some scheme...the gov't simply had no alternatives. said by Lt. Gen. Robert B. Flowers, the commander of the Corps of Engineers:
No other contractor could satisfy mission requirements in the time. available
Remember, the thought at the time was that there would be literally hundreds of oil fires which turned out not to be the case and thus there is no billions being paid out. They money paid is only for work done. Little work means about $50 million so far of a possible max of $7 billion. Hardly a conspiracy. Since then, the U.S. Army has put other contracts up for bid. »www.enr.com/news/bizlabor/archiv···0411.asp
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[text was edited by author 2003-08-26 19:20:04] | |
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NOVA_Guy
The EVIL TRIO- Obama, Pelosi, and Dodd
Premium
join:2002-03-05
Purcellville, VA
| said by garagerock :
In the real world, people who need Medicare aren't going to tolerate any caps on that spending, especially when the older generation has a LOT of political clout (AARP, anyone?) and vote in large numbers. Health care issues alone are going to bankrupt the whole country if we're not careful...and wishing it all away isn't going to work.
Hmmm... If we wasted less money with Medicare, then maybe some of the old farts would die off and the AARP wouldn't have so much power...  And yes, this is intended as a joke (at least somewhat intended that way, as there is a sad kernel of truth to it)
Keep in mind that this is coming from someone who has two elderly grandmothers and two parents who are just about to start "coming of age". I'm not a big fan of the way that some of these "entitlement" systems have been set up to make the young, working folks support these old retired people for the rest of their lives. Some generation will eventually be screwed with the way things are going, and I'm afraid that generation will be mine. 
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garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY
| Re: This is what massive Federal tax cuts will get you Thing is, that isn't going to happen. Remember, the Boomer generation is much larger than any other age group. With life expectancies lengthening almost every year, that adds up to a disaster waiting to happen.
We too, will be old someday. Compassion for older people isn't just the right thing to do for them-it's the right thing to do for us, as someday we'll be in their shoes.
Ever seen Logan's Run? Do you propose killing everyone off ceremoniously at age 75? What happens when you turn that age? Will the rules somehow change?
It is really convenient to dispose of old people, until you're the old person in question. That, in a nutshell, is what is happening now.
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"The separation of the power of declaring war from that of conducting it, is wisely contrived to exclude the danger of its being declared for the sake of its being conducted" James Madison
[text was edited by author 2003-08-27 12:30:50] | |
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akristov
join:2001-01-31
Tampa, FL
clubs: | Florida does not have an income tax, hopefully we will not have a LAN tax either. | |
| | | Benji21126
join:2002-12-04
Mount Juliet, TN | florida doesnt have an income tax | |
| | | | joebear29
join:2003-07-20
Alabaster, AL
| Re: This is what massive Federal tax cuts will get you said by Benji21126 :
florida doesnt have an income tax
Well, they can raise the investment tax then. Same theory. | |
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tiger72
SexaT duorP
Premium
join:2001-03-28
Saint Louis, MO
clubs: | Re: This is what massive Federal tax cuts will get you or do what other states without an income tax (like Texas) have done: raise property taxes. | |
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ronpin
Imagine Reality
join:2002-12-06
Nirvana | Re: This is what elderly transplants will get you. OMG -- they still exist | |
| | | | jelling
Jelling
Premium
join:2003-03-12
Tulsa, OK
| Re: This is what elderly transplants will get you. said by ronpin :
OMG -- they still exist
OMG -- They still voted themselves into this mess. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
 ·Comcast
| Re: This is what elderly transplants will get you. said by jelling :
OMG -- They still voted themselves into this mess.
Of course, they drag everyone else into the endless sieve of paying for the old fogies forever. As a young person, its very hard to see myself actually saving any money because the government is going to tax it away to pay for some old fogie's "free" health care or prescription drug "benefit." Why do old people who are not poor and can afford to pay for these things (by either using their own cash or selling their assets) think they should be entitled to these things at the expense of the young?
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Jewel got Britney-fied! There is hope for the world yet! | |
| | | | | | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
·Comcast Formerly ..
| Re: This is what elderly transplants will get you. The american way look at how the goverment is run... Everything for Me nothing for You.
This has given way to the great goverment to this day. Don't get me wrong i love the US.. But things have to change. The people did it in england and left england for the new found land mass called america. now however we can't really go do our own goverment... unless of course we move to the moon or some other planet.
Point is this crap is rediculous. The people more likely to die and get sick should pop the price. ie.. smokers, drinkers .. speeders. These guys should be flipping the bill for the damages they do to the system since it's shown in studies that they require more healthcare later in life.
raise the taxes on that stuff and you are now flipping the bill for themselves. No one should ever be taxed on the internet weather it's voip or data. Thats just wrong. You pay for the access what you do with it should be your right.
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Chief Sparky
52 Still On Patrol
Premium
join:2001-04-25
Mount Vernon, WA
| quote:
...paying for the old fogies forever. As a young person, its very hard to see myself actually saving any money because the government is going to tax it away to pay for some old fogie's "free" health care or prescription drug "benefit." Why do old people who are not poor and can afford to pay for these things (by either using their own cash or selling their assets) think they should be entitled to these things at the expense of the young?
/rant mode on
Let's see... these "old fogies" worked for 30-40-50 years, supported you, wiped your nose and ass, paid taxes all along to support welfare, student loan programs, welfare, first time home buyer programs, welfare, prisons full of people too stupid or lazy to do anything but commit crimes, welfare, roads for you to drive on, welfare, welfare, and welfare. They have watched state, corporate and federal bungling, mismanagement and outright criminal behavior reduce the pensions they worked all their lives for to incomes below the poverty level. You seem to be missing the fact that these "old fogies" have already paid their dues, and a good portion of yours too. Medicare & Medicaid were programs THEY voted to establish to look after themselves in their old age, and paid for their entire working lives.
I love your attitude - it's a symbol of what's wrong with this country.
If you want to effect meaningful change to the system, then get out and vote. Learn the issues, figure out how to avoid the "Bread and Circuses" trap, and realize that the welfare of the many truly does outweigh that of the few. Then vote.
/rant mode off.
paul
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Duty, Honor, Country, these things above all else... EMC(SS), USN(ret) | |
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oliphant5
Got Identity?
Premium
join:2003-05-24
Corona, CA
| Re: This is what elderly transplants will get you. Tell me again how they supported me? I'm not on welfare, I don't have student loans, first time buyer (like FHA) are paid through the buyers themselves with FHA insurance premiums...and uh...I pay taxes too for those roads through $600/yr license fees, nearly .40/gal gas tax (soon to be .65/gal), a 1/2% sales tax hike along with my "contribution" to the general fund...and the fogies are still driving those roads too...and at significantly less cost than I.
If they haven't properly prepared for their retirement, why again is that my problem? Why should I have my retirement hampered because I have to pay even higher taxes to support the irresponsible?
I love this socialist attitude. Where the hell do you think all this money to fuel your utopian aspirations is going to come from huh? It's called the tax base. You raise the taxes, the tax base leaves. So you raise the taxes again, more tax base leaves. Pretty soon, you have nothing but leeches and no one pulling the cart. It's such a simple concept that even YOU could understand it. And think the tax base won't leave. It does. That's what is happening in California. Irresponsible "do-gooder" thinking like yours have run California into bankruptcy.
And voting...that's not going to solve this problem. Everyone votes themselves free stuff. They don't care who they're stealing it from. You think these fogies care that they're taking food from children's mouths everytime their new programs cause massive tax increases? Only what is happening in California will solve this problem. Flee the state...and those that can't or won't...oust the regime that destroyed the state with economic bumbling like you advocate.
--
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[text was edited by author 2003-08-27 01:59:57] | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| said by Chief Sparky :
Let's see... these "old fogies" worked for 30-40-50 years, supported you, wiped your nose and ass, paid taxes all along to support welfare, student loan programs, welfare, first time home buyer programs, welfare, prisons full of people too stupid or lazy to do anything but commit crimes, welfare, roads for you to drive on, welfare, welfare, and welfare.
So I can use the same argument to pillage from the next generation of young people? Big deal. I work, pay taxes, and pay for other people as well. What makes my contributions any less significant than anyone elses? The only old people I would say I owed anything to would be my parents and those brave veterans who fought in our wars. I have no problem helping them out. Senior citizens are the richest group of people in the USA. They have a lot more money than I do. Why can't those who have the money and assets use them to pay for their own expenses instead of burdening other people with those responsibilities?
said by Chief Sparky :
They have watched state, corporate and federal bungling, mismanagement and outright criminal behavior reduce the pensions they worked all their lives for to incomes below the poverty level. You seem to be missing the fact that these "old fogies" have already paid their dues, and a good portion of yours too.
How so? The yearly expenses for social programs are paid out the same year they are collected. There's no magical "trust fund" out there into which all this money is thrown and then saved till a later date. All social security and medicare all comes out of current taxes and spending. If someone isn't paying taxes and they receive some kind of government benefit, then by definition they are taking it from someone who did pay taxes.
In the future I will have a family eventually and they will become my first priority. I will have to take care of them because they are my responsibility. How will I be able to take care of them if I am taxed to the hilt to pay for people who are selfish and greedy to the point that they will force the younger generation to sacrifice its future for its own short term gain. I lost my shirt in the stock market crash too. Why is my loss any less significant that someone elses?
said by Chief Sparky :
Medicare & Medicaid were programs THEY voted to establish to look after themselves in their old age, and paid for their entire working lives.
No, they voted for it because it passes the buck to someone else. To paraphrase one congressman, any program that robs Peter to pay Paul will always have the support of Paul.
said by Chief Sparky :
I love your attitude - it's a symbol of what's wrong with this country.
And the idea of forced wealth redistribution is good for this country? I don't like that idea, but I don't have a problem helping out people that can't do for themselves. I feel that it my moral duty to help those that are less fortunate than me, but that is my own opinion. My problem is with those people who do indeed have the ability to pay for their own problems, but who somehow think that its someone else's responsibility to cover the cost.
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Jewel got Britney-fied! There is hope for the world yet! | |
| | | | | | | | Benji21126
join:2002-12-04
Mount Juliet, TN
| Re: This is what elderly transplants will get you. ahhh social security had a gigantic surplus until Bush/Cheeny decided to use it to say, pay Haliburton in the interests of national security? even now, that surplus is being used to fund other "pork" projects, and quickly dwindling. Where and how are they going to replace this money when the boomers really hit? they are going to tax the young people, and put off any true reform.
for me, dont deduct anything from my pay check, i will invest it in a good growth mutual fund, and i wont need the 231. a month for my retirement | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: This is what elderly transplants will get you. said by Benji21126 :
ahhh social security had a gigantic surplus until Bush/Cheeny decided to use it to say, pay Haliburton in the interests of national security? even now, that surplus is being used to fund other "pork" projects, and quickly dwindling.
Jiminy H. Crackers. I can't believe this! Let me say this loud and clear.
THERE NEVER WAS A TRUST FUND
THERE IS NO TRUST FUND
THERE NEVER WILL BE A TRUST FUND
Every single budget that is passed by the Federal government has always lumped the money collected through social security and medicare payroll deductions into the same general fund that all the money collected from any other tax goes. Social security and medicare payments are just line items in the same budget that fund everything else the government wastes our money on does.
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Jewel got Britney-fied! There is hope for the world yet! | |
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See 7 replies to this post | |
| | | | | | | TACSPEED
Premium
join:2001-04-14
Tacoma, WA
·Advanced Stream
| quote:
No, they voted for it because it passes the buck to someone else. To paraphrase one congressman, any program that robs Peter to pay Paul will always have the support of Paul.
I've payed into Social Security and/or Medicare for almost 40 years. I be damn sure to do everything in my power to make sure I get it when I retire!
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: This is what elderly transplants will get you. said by TACSPEED :
I've payed into Social Security and/or Medicare for almost 40 years. I be damn sure to do everything in my power to make sure I get it when I retire!
LOL... fat chance of that happening. I've been paying in for 10 years and I already know I will never see a penny of that.
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Jewel got Britney-fied! There is hope for the world yet! | |
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tiger72
SexaT duorP
Premium
join:2001-03-28
Saint Louis, MO
clubs: | what about us? i will have paid into Soc Sec for 40 years, and i wont get shit. thanks.
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: This is what elderly transplants will get you. said by tiger72 :
what about us? i will have paid into Soc Sec for 40 years, and i wont get s---. thanks.
That's exactly what pisses me off the most about the Baby Boomer generation. The whole Me-First, I-Got-Mine-I-Don't-Care-If-You-Get-Yours mentality... UGH.
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Jewel got Britney-fied! There is hope for the world yet! | |
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oliphant5
Got Identity?
Premium
join:2003-05-24
Corona, CA | Re: This is what elderly transplants will get you. 3) Money isn't invested and thus accumulation is eaten at by inflation. Of course there isn't going to be any money at the end.
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Wall9
Tell Me, Did You See It Too?
Premium
join:2002-06-25
Dupo, IL | I'll remember that when I'm collecting the social security that won't be there. | |
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Frank
is chilling
Premium
join:2000-11-03
somewhere
 ·Verizon FIOS
| said by Chief Sparky :
/rant mode on
Let's see... these "old fogies" worked for 30-40-50 years, supported you, wiped your nose and ass, paid taxes all along to support welfare, student loan programs, welfare, first time home buyer programs, welfare, prisons full of people too stupid or lazy to do anything but commit crimes, welfare, roads for you to drive on, welfare, welfare, and welfare. They have watched state, corporate and federal bungling, mismanagement and outright criminal behavior reduce the pensions they worked all their lives for to incomes below the poverty level. You seem to be missing the fact that these "old fogies" have already paid their dues, and a good portion of yours too. Medicare & Medicaid were programs THEY voted to establish to look after themselves in their old age, and paid for their entire working lives.
I love your attitude - it's a symbol of what's wrong with this country.
If you want to effect meaningful change to the system, then get out and vote. Learn the issues, figure out how to avoid the "Bread and Circuses" trap, and realize that the welfare of the many truly does outweigh that of the few. Then vote.
/rant mode off.
paul
I dont quite understand what you are saying due to the fact that you seem to be talking about federal taxes. In reality the problem that the other guy was talking about (with the old fogies remark) was regarding state taxes.
The majority of the senior citizens in florida have migrated there from other states in order to retire, which means: NO, they havent paid Florida state taxes for 30-40-50 years nor have they supported Florida in anyway and by them moving there they cause Florida to spend more taxes on them which is what I think the other guy was complaining about.
then again.......... that's just my opinion, I could be wrong
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Stop using P2P!, buy pirated cd's instead | |
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NOVA_Guy
The EVIL TRIO- Obama, Pelosi, and Dodd
Premium
join:2002-03-05
Purcellville, VA
| said by Chief Sparky :
If you want to effect meaningful change to the system, then get out and vote. Learn the issues, figure out how to avoid the "Bread and Circuses" trap, and realize that the welfare of the many truly does outweigh that of the few. Then vote.
The old people of America should tremble in fear if the young and middle class ever do start to turn out voting in the same numbers that they do-- then they can find out what "the welfare of the many" truly is.
And to give you a hint, it doesn't involve robbing money from the pockets of younger people to pay for Social Security, Medicare, a prescription drug benefit, or anything of the like. When Social Security was established, wasn't the expected lifespan something like 72-75 years?
I'll make every old person collected Social Security right now a deal: promise to die at 75, and I'll promise to pay for your life and heath until then without complaining.
Yes, I know it sounds cruel, heartless, and uncaring. However, one must realize that in tough times the fat must be trimmed from spending programs. It is unfair to raise taxes just so that some people who have already led full lives can continue to do so on the backs of younger generations. I'm not in favor of eliminating Social Security or Medicare; I'm just in favor of trimming it to a more reasonable level in an effort to make things fair for all of us.
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Cox cable: the hallmark questionable business practices and lousy cable service! | |
| | 
GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL
| Re: This is what massive Federal tax cuts will get you Not really.
The Federal tax cuts don't have much impact on this as far as I see it.
The real issue is the fact that in this lovely state, the old timers managed to get the "no state income tax" law put into the state constitution.
So, they have to find the cash to run the state somehow...and this is just the latest target.
K.
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TheGlobalMind.com
"On a clear disk you can seek forever" | |
| | | 2farfromCO7
join:2000-10-14
Farmington, MI
| Re: This is what massive Federal tax cuts will get Of course Florida doesn't have a state income tax. If they relied on a state income tax for revenue, they'd go bankrupt. That's why they have a state investment tax. That way they can tax the entire senior population. A state income tax doesn't make sense in Florida. | |
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GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL
| Re: This is what massive Federal tax cuts will get Sure it does.
There are umpteen thousand folks who move here every day. The only caveat is that in many cases you can't get their income declared...i.e. not legal, cash payments etc. However, there are plenty of folks working here to give substantial income to the state even at a low rate of tax.
It isn't that there is not a state income tax because it doesn't make sense, there isn't one because it has been legislated out of existence.
The crux of my point is that I would much rather get hit once than all of this nickel & dime crap that we're subject to. It's pathetic. There is too much passing of the buck simply because agency X doesn't have the cash to handle issue Y.
(edit: Let me be clear - I wish to keep as much of my $$ as possible, and frankly on the federal side I am amazed at just how damn much tax I have to pay. Having no state tax can be a really cool thing, but you have to manage the lack of that income accordingly. Something that simply has not been done here. Barring the "tax me for looking at the sun" philosophy, I don't see how any of them can bitch and complain that there isn't any $$ to get the job done, when they've killed off the state tax option...and continue to spend like they have all of that cash available.)
K.
[text was edited by author 2003-08-26 13:11:29] | |
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mrclark
What's That Daddy?
join:2000-08-04
Chicago, IL
| Re: This is what massive Federal tax cuts will get you
Um.........WTF?
When have you known politicians to "NOT TRY TO THINK OF WAYS" to get their hands on our money?
And how does this have ANYTHING REMOTELY to do with Federal Tax Cuts?
maybe you could respond with a reasonable "unbiased" view of how you came to this conclusion....because frankly, I'm baffled.
--
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats." - H.L Mencken
[text was edited by author 2003-08-26 15:20:09] | |
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garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY
| quote:
Note: This could be averted, by painful but necessary fiscal restraint, by a hard-but-necessary cutting off of excess social welfare benefits, and by a pay-down-the debt quit borrowing priority. We'd also have to curtail our foreign activities and at least for awhile greatly scale back military operations
»www.fb.com/issues/analysis/Fed_B···002.html
As I have repeatedly stated, there isn't a politician alive that would risk his/her political skin by making those sacrifices. The link I provided shows some interesting figures. Yes, Social Security and Medicare expenses are the biggest chunk. This is not going to change for the better, rather it's going to get worse as the population ages and retires.
You guys that so boldy exclaim you'll never see a dime out of Social Security or use any of the benefits provided by these programs are harping at the wrong choir. You may not use them, but countless others do, and you can't tell me none of you have friends, relatives, coworkers, etc. that use them or will use them in the near future. Our country decided back in the 1930's to make sure there was a safety net for all Americans-get over it. The idea we could return to the Herbert Hoover days is, frankly, laughable at this juncture of history, given the enormous political and financial clout that the older generation owns, and will only get bigger as the demographic known as Baby Boomer starts retiring and needing these benefits. That FACT will not change, and all the hair pulling and name calling is not going to sway millions of Americans from changing their minds on this issue.
Does the system need some reforms? You betcha. I believe if you make more than a million dollars a year in nontaxed retirement income (hello Bob Dole), you shouldn't receive benefits PERIOD. Obviously you don't need a safety net if you're already pulling down A MILLION FREAKIN' DOLLARS A YEAR THAT'S ALREADY UNTAXED.
We can't reinvent the wheel, but we can address the growing problem of healthcare expenditures that will eventually bankrupt us all unless this issue is addressed.
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"The separation of the power of declaring war from that of conducting it, is wisely contrived to exclude the danger of its being declared for the sake of its being conducted" James Madison | |
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See 6 replies to this post | |
drjim
Premium,MVM
join:2000-06-13
Torrance, CA
clubs: | HUH??? Put a tax on my LAN??? What idiots! If they're like California, they already tax the $hit out of the phone bill.
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One man's Magic is another man's Engineering. | |
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See 9 replies to this post | |
dinkerdnk
join:2003-02-04
Arlington, TX | Flailing economy..... Well let's just drive a stake into the heart of our flailing
economy....what a bunch of freakin idiots.
I know let's just tax our way to revenue....That'll fix it.
DOPES!!! | |
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Rothan Tik
Destroyer of worlds
Premium
join:2000-11-07
Danvers, MA | Ok? Time to get the shotgun...
--
-Chris | |
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GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL
| Ok so... Read the documents behind this and you'll see just how damn obsurd this really is.
The first question I have to ask is when you look at the definition of what a "substitute communications system" is, essentially IMHO one MUST also define exactly in each case I am substituting. Reading the definition they provide, I cannot see how a simple LAN qualifies as a substitute communications system.
However, as you read on it becomes clear that VoIP is certainly one of the target points. Since they also can target companies who essentially by-pass the long lines carriers with dedicated circuits to link their phone systems.
The funny thing is that this is based on the cost of installing/maintaining the network. SO...the only reason a consumer's residence would not fall into the taxable arena here is because they can't seem to put a price on that network. However, if in some way they could...whammo!
In my view this is nothing more than a pathetic regulatory land grab, looking for more $$ to the state.
Fortunately, there are any number of businesses and trade groups who are going after this proposal now, so hopefully it will get snuffed out in short order.
K.
--
TheGlobalMind.com
"On a clear disk you can seek forever" | |
| | 
AnArky
I am in your nightmares.
Premium
join:2001-06-12
Berwyn, IL
clubs:
| Florida Taxing Morons.... Think of how many businesses would relocate out of the state if this happened. They would lose there ass as businesses facing 14% tax charges would say screw that and go bye-bye. I work for the largest private security company in the nation and we have two of our main hubs in Jacksonville and Bradenton. They handle communications from all there alarm circuits in the US there as well as a fall back when one of the others go down. These centers are relatively new and employ 100's if not 1000's of people to handle and monitor alarm cicuits nationwide. This tax would hit the company pretty hard. I could see the company shutting it down and relocating out of state. I think they would lose more money then they would gain in the long run.
This is strictly my opinion though.
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One of the Team Starfire Seven! Team Starfire Security and the thorn in Kinguni's side. | |
| | | 
lazarus_
join:2002-08-31
Resolute, NU
| Re: Florida Taxing Morons.... said by AnArky :
Think of how many businesses would relocate out of the state if this happened. They would lose there ass as businesses facing 14% tax charges would say screw that and go bye-bye. I work for the largest private security company in the nation and we have two of our main hubs in Jacksonville and Bradenton. They handle communications from all there alarm circuits in the US there as well as a fall back when one of the others go down. These centers are relatively new and employ 100's if not 1000's of people to handle and monitor alarm cicuits nationwide. This tax would hit the company pretty hard. I could see the company shutting it down and relocating out of state. I think they would lose more money then they would gain in the long run.
This is strictly my opinion though.
Its not easy for huge companies to move their head office to another state or country... I'm sure they aren't going to fire or lay off all their corporate employees just because they have to pay tax on their LAN...
Same goes w/ call centers. (Also this is only for corporate commercial LAN's.. Not home non profit..)
--
Dont copy that floppy!
[text was edited by author 2003-08-26 12:38:29] | |
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GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL
| Re: Florida Taxing Morons.... said by lazarus_ :
(Also this is only for corporate commercial LAN's.. Not home non profit..)
Actually by the definitions and examples listed in the documents, these taxes could apply to consumer home networks. The only snag is that they can't put a dollar figure on it. There is no provision that I can see which explicitly calls out that this is only for businesses. Of course the most likely situation is for business to be the ones paying.
The larger issue I see is that small businesses, which are the cornerstone of the economy, will be hit very hard by this. In the case of a small business owner who has a few PCs in one location, and connects them up with a LAN - I still challenge the regulators to tell me what otherwise taxable service this business is "substituting" by installing that LAN.
K.
--
TheGlobalMind.com
"On a clear disk you can seek forever" | |
| | | youngmoore
join:2001-03-16
Marietta, GA | I think your right. Same thing happen with Cal. We saw alot of compaines go to other states.
ym | |
| | | lesopp
join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL | Bradenton is where the carnies come for the off-season. Are you telling me you staff your alarm center with carnies? | |
| greywolf520
That's All Folks
join:2003-06-02
New Kensington, PA | Hope the PA politicians don't see this For those in PA, i hope Gov. Rendell, or Pittsburgh Mayor Murphy don't see this. If they start taxing LAN and Internet services, heck I might as well just sign my paycheck over to them. | |
| | | seppytech
join:2002-06-04
Boca Raton, FL
| Re: Come to the Cowboy State said by Transmaster :
For the most part these are the nastiest, most petulent, demanding, You owe me, bunch you can imagine. They behave like spoiled children that are used to getting their own way.
Very true. You have to avoid supermarkets near the many retired communities here. You have never seen so many cheap and miserable people in one place.  | |
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GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL
| Re: Come to the Cowboy State Kinda off topic, but the first weekend I spent down here before we moved I had to pretty much break up two grey hairs in their white Caddys fighting over a parking space.
Really pretty lame - and funny as hell at the same time.
K.
--
TheGlobalMind.com
"On a clear disk you can seek forever" | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Come to the Cowboy State said by GlobalMind :
Kinda off topic, but the first weekend I spent down here before we moved I had to pretty much break up two grey hairs in their white Caddys fighting over a parking space.
You didn't happen to be near Del Boca Vista were you? LOL
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Jewel got Britney-fied! There is hope for the world yet! | |
| | lesopp
join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL
| said by Transmaster :
Just move your Business to Wyoming No state income tax
4 to 5% sales tax, low property taxes.
And a fortune to be made near every palm tree... | |
| lovewomen
join:2003-08-07
Springfield, VA
·Cox HSI
| Tax tax tax I live in a no income tax state. The state taxes everything that moves. When they hear of what Fla is doing I am sure they will do the same. The state (TN)
would be much better with an income tax if they would
reduce the sales tax at the same time plus all the other "little" taxes. I think states are just like the health insurance companies they just don't know how to control costs. | |
| | | Master5c8
join:2002-09-15
Urbana, IL
clubs:
| Re: They can have my router when they take it... Why would it have to be a black market? As far as I know (at least here in IL) the state can't tax goods purchased out-of-state and I would think it highly unlikely that some sort of state package inspection regulation could ever be passed. Though I can see how they could try to tax, say, an ISP, since they're in the business of providing networks, I do not see how they could ever enforce any sort of LAN tax. | |
| 
macyh
Ex-Isp
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-24
Medina, OH
·Armstrong Zoom In..
| No tax = More tax ?? After selling my ISP I've been looking to move South and start a new networking venture. I spent the last couple of weeks looking at places to start (or buy) a business in Florida, meeting with Chambers of Commerce and economic development people. Several areas on the northern half of the state look very appealing, but I'm concerned that business conditions in the Florida are changing, and not for the better.
Anyone who wants to know what Florida's tax and governmental climate may be like in 20 years should take a look at the state capital today.
I was absolutely shocked at what I found when looking at Tallahassee, Florida's capital city. The entire area is overtaxed and over regulated. They have rules, permits, taxes and fees for everything in Leon county, it's an expensive and burdensome place to do business. The city itself is also known for an anti-business attitude, they want government. lawyers and university types, but not conventional business to locate, from what I can see
It appears the entire Leon county area suffers from a large dose of traditional Democratic insider politics as well. Getting anything done takes political connections and lawyers, plus lots of time and money. In fact, I was advised to locate any new business in this area in adjoining Jefferson county.
If this is what the politicians and bureaucrats in Florida's state government what to transform the entire state into, look out.
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Macy Hallock Ex-APK Net, Inc. Cleveland, OH, recently sold
Looking for a southern ISP/WISP/host to buy or invest in. | |
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
 ·AT&T Southwest
| Re: No tax = More tax ?? Agreed, my company considered expanding to Florida, the Tampa Bay area is a perfect market for us. However, as we analyzed regulations and had employees investigating the situation locally, we found that even simple things like building permits were so snarled in red tape, fees, taxes, crazy stuff, that we abandoned the idea completely. It literally would take *years* just to get approval to build a site.
Instead, we expanded into Phoenix.
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
| | 
DrTCP
Yours truly
Premium,ExMod 1999-04
join:1999-11-09
Round Rock, TX | Florida is to scare businesses away With these policies Florida will scare businesses away and loose more in the long run with even less corporate taxes paid. | |
| 
flukeman
join:2003-08-16
Omaha, NE
| Tax away...and see your state go to hell... It amazes me to see this. Government is always out to screw as many citizens as possible. I once saw a quote that said "The government is far more likely to do something to you rather than for you." It really looks that way.
I guess we just can't pay enough taxes to any government body.
Go ahead and tax us; we don't need the money. We love working for Big Bro. | |
| 
bigdaddy17
join:2003-05-08
Miami, FL
| thats strange.. Thats strange.. I dont see very many retires down here in Miami and infact most of them are all young ones that are always in a hurry to go to there job. Ever see what rush hour is like? And no I wouldnt wanna move to somewhere in the middle of nowhere in Wyoming with no broadband.. | |
| 
2cents
@iline.com
| Your Mom Or Dad If it was not for all the old folks vacationing and then retiring here in florida. we would have >>>ZIP..Florida is still one of the best states to live and do business in.
The problem is that we do not know how to say >..NO
I for one am not going to tell my parents they have to sell there beach front condo just to buy food...Better we should all care for our elderly today and not make the same mistake by investing in our own retirement.
What if florida said your state had to pay for elderly care because they lived 40-60yrs in your state and then moved to florida.
I would be pissed to, medicare does not cover viagra. | |
| jims2321
join:2000-04-05
Oviedo, FL
·AT&T Southeast
| The solution is simple The arguement over Florida's lousy climate for business or families, is waged endless over the water coolers here in Orlando, Florida.
After our heated arguments, my collegues and I have come up with 4 ideas, that once implemented would solve Florida's problems.
1. Close the borders... Well, actually shut them to new immigrants to the state. The only time anyone can relocate to the state is if someone leaves or dies. Then an equal number of new immigrants may enter.
2. Impose a state income tax... Because Florida relies on tourism, and the potential instability of this industry, impose a 3 or 4% tax on income.
3. Realistically appraise homes... too many homes in Florida are undervalued, thus millions if not billions of dollars are lost.
4. Require an person wishing to retire to Florida, be a resident for at least 5 years before they can purchase a retirement home.
Oh, and in light of the elder driving issue, revoke the licenses of all drivers over the age of 70 regardless of physical or mental capacities.
Jim
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"May we all get fiber to our homes and offices before we're too old or dead to enjoy it." -- Che Guevara
First rule of fiber optics: you do not talk about fiber optics
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2cents
@iline.com
| Microsoft bCentral's 10 best and worst MS just released a list...Florida is number two.
»www.bcentral.com/articles/harper/141.asp
I have always found it strange that so many people think ill of Florida but they keep moving here. Yes we have our problems but over the past few yrs we have done pretty will
with the population increase that we have. | |
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This is what elderly transplants will get you...
·
Great, As if We're Not Behind Enough Already!