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story category Florida Tax Agenda
Proposed rules worry Florida providers
(old news - 03:40PM Wednesday Jul 09 2003)
tags: business
The state of Florida is apparently in the process of considering new state communications tax guidelines that have some providers a little nervous. A concerned netizen writes us and included several pdf files (attached below) that explore the state's efforts to implement a State Communicated Services Tax. The documents do not appear on the State of Florida Department of Revenue web site, but outline the attempts being made in the state to create several new tax guidelines.

One of the documents outlines the proposal for rule 12A-19.036, which would make "Substitute Communications Systems" subject to State of Florida Communication Tax (9.17%), and local communication tax (5% to6%).

The definition of "Substitute Communications Systems" in the documents is defined as "any system that is used for voice or data, that connects multiple users with the use of Switching or Routing Technology".

So in essence, every Business owner who has a telephone system installed at the office, could be facing 14% to 16% Communication Taxes on the operating cost of the phone system.

Every Business owner who has a Computer network (LAN) installed at their office, would have to remit to the State of Florida, 14%-16% of Communication Taxes on the operating cost of the network. (Possibly on the cost of the whole IT department, with the exception of monies spent on purchasing hardware or software).

Individuals who have a computer network or LAN installed at their homes, and incur costs to operate and maintain it, might be subject to State Communication Taxes as well.

All wireless POP operators, would have to remit to the State of Florida 14% to 16% of Communication Taxes on the operating and maintenance cost of the Network.

A second rule (12A-19.002) is being proposed to explicitly clarify the issue of State of Florida Communication Tax on all pipes that are used to deliver Internet access.

According to the language of the proposal, all forms of communication lines used for delivering Internet Access will have to be billed as two components. The communication component (local loop, T1 loop, etc.) and the internet access component. The communication component would be subject to Florida communication taxes, though Internet Access cannot be taxed since it is a federal mandate.

Any provider who does not break down the bill to the end user, will have to pay these taxes from their own pockets, and will not be able to pass on these taxes to the end users.

Keep in mind, these changes are all simply proposed works in the progress of being negotiated.

See: Notice of Proposed Rule Development Substitute Communication Systems (link)

Notice of Proposed Rule Development DSL Internet Access (link)

As well as the agenda for a July 31st meeting to discuss the legislation.

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Forums » Florida Tax Agenda
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Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
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Tallahassee, FL
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Catchy title:

I've heard a lot of talk about this but don't know much. These taxes are pretty steep. My big questions is when said taxes are paid, where the hell is the money going? Also, what is the justification for the need of such taxes?
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pnh102
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Mount Airy, MD
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Re: Catchy title:

said by Maxo See Profile:
Also, what is the justification for the need of such taxes?
To pay for increased state spending of course! You don't really think that this "slow economy" has put the brakes on state spending, do you? Of course not! Just about every single state has increased the amount of money it spends year after year. The fact that existing tax revenue doesn't pay the bill doesn't seem to matter.

You'll get a kick out of this one... in Pennsylvania, our governor recently signed into law a $22 billion "bare bones" budget. How $22 billion is bare bones is totally beyond me!
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Jewel got Britney-fied! There is hope for the world yet!

Wills

join:2001-01-03
Port Charlotte, FL

Re: Catchy title:

Florida has had to cut spending on every front with Jeb's new 5 year plan. Our office was cut almost 13.5%, and like I said, we're a state agency.

I'd really like to know where this money would go. The roads suck, the boat ramps suck, the parks suck, there is nothing for kids to do.

It's probably going to go to save more manatees.
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aztecnology
O Rly?
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Murrieta, CA
·Verizon FIOS

Re: Catchy title:

said by Wills See Profile:
I'd really like to know where this money would go. The roads suck, the boat ramps suck, the parks suck, there is nothing for kids to do.

We all know that the kids are still gonna swim with the gators...
--
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pnh102
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said by Wills See Profile:
Florida has had to cut spending on every front with Jeb's new 5 year plan. Our office was cut almost 13.5%
But was it an actual cut in the amount allotted? I.e., You got $X in 2002, and you will get 0.865 * $X this year? Or was it a cut in the increase in funding for this year? I.e., you got $X in 2002, you were supposed to get $X + $Y in 2003, but instead you got $X + (0.865 * $Y) this year. A lot of times when I hear people in Pennsylvania complain about "cutbacks", it really turns out to be a case of the latter, in which they are still getting more money than last year.
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Wills

join:2001-01-03
Port Charlotte, FL

Re: Catchy title:

We are getting almost 13.5% less money this year than we did last year. (Budget year stats July 1st)
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banditws6
Shrinking Time and Distance

join:2001-08-18
Naples, FL
·Comcast

They're probably trying to come up with new and creative ways to fund the Class Size Reduction amendment. Or maybe that super-useful High Speed Rail amendment that makes it a STATE LAW that a high-speed rail transportation system must be constructed between central and south Florida.

A lot of extremely expensive laws in this state seem somewhat overzealous. You can pass a decree that says the earth has to be shiny and happy, but do we really need a law for that? Can we reasonably expect to enforce such a law? Do we even need to? Even if we could, can we possibly afford to?

These are just some of the questions not being asked at a Florida legislature meeting near you.
--
"I'll follow the law until it's just stupid." -Ted Nugent

dr riddim

@rr.com

If I'm not mistaken our illustrious governor, Jeb Bush, has condemned (or is about to condemn) the manatee to extinction by removing it from the endangered species list. The boating industry (and, of course, all the folks who own boats are voters) managed to get their way.

Why is it so damned hard to give a little consideration to the manatees?

Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
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Tallahassee, FL
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Re: Catchy title:

Yeah, I read those idiots crap in the news papers. They said they moved to Florida to get the experience and don't like the no wake zones. Well guess what? The no wake zones & the manatees are the Florida experience. If you don't like it Bubba and I will can chase your Yankee ass back to New York with our shot guns and pick up trucks. Eat some F***in' grits and cracklins before you come around here trying to take our state away. I'd like to condemn Jeb to a life of eating hog maws and souse. Then he'll realise what it realy means to be a southerner and will stop being such POS.
--
God I love being a turtle. - Michaelangelo »www.maxolasersquad.com

Wills

join:2001-01-03
Port Charlotte, FL

Why is it so hard? Because they constantly attack us boaters. They are taking away our prime fishing areas, these are waters 3 feet deep and less, that manatees can't even get to.

Last year in Charlotte county, 14 manatees where killed by other than normal causes. 1 was by boat, the others were killed by red tide.

It has always been fewer killed by boat than anything else. Yet they still try to interfere with the boaters.

And no, they haven't been removed from endangered species list, that's not Jeb Bush's call.

If you want to save the manatees, fine, but there is no reason to stop boaters, make prime fishing areas off limits, or stop the construction of sea walls all in places the manatees don't go. If they continue to do this, then in my opinion, those without opposing thumbs lose.
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Abit VP-6 twin 800EB's @ 1002 Mhz.Proud member of the XDC.

Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
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join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
·Embarq

Re: Catchy title:

Well, if conservation laws for manatees aren't helping that's one thing. But people who say they don't care about the manatees because they like to ride their boat fast or because they think protecting them is a pain in the ass. I saw in the news paper a while ago people protesting holding up sign saying they don't give a crap about manatees and they moved to Florida to drive their boat fast and "live the Florida experience" As a native Floridian everyone I've met has been more than happy to obey laws to help protect the manatess because they consider the well-being of the manatees the well-being of Florida culture. But whether or not those laws are effective is a completely different story.
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God I love being a turtle. - Michaelangelo »www.maxolasersquad.com

Hayward
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Key West, FL

said by Wills See Profile:

I'd really like to know where this money would go. The roads suck, the boat ramps suck, the parks suck, there is nothing for kids to do.

Yeah and how about that unclaimed 50 MILLION lottery prize that is going back into Lottery promotion.... was in not created to aid to EDUCATION, our schools couldn't have used that $50 Million????

No I guess not... that might create educated people that actual vote intelligently (if at all)... instead of just shooting each other on the street.
--
»haywardm.com (Hayward's Key West)

aztecnology
O Rly?
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Murrieta, CA
·Verizon FIOS

said by pnh102 See Profile:
You'll get a kick out of this one... in Pennsylvania, our governor recently signed into law a $22 billion "bare bones" budget. How $22 billion is bare bones is totally beyond me!

You wanna get a kick out of something...
When Gray Dufus took over California the state budget was $50 Billion, today we're looking at a budget over $100 Billion. Not to mention he took a $12 Billion Surplus (largest in state history) and has turned it into a $40 Billion deficit(largest in state history)
--
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pnh102
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Re: Catchy title:

said by aztecnology See Profile:
today we're looking at a budget over $100 Billion. Not to mention he took a $12 Billion Surplus (largest in state history) and has turned it into a $40 Billion deficit(largest in state history)
There's gotta be a Dr. Evil joke in that somewhere Of course, it looks like Davis is gonna be "Term-inated" pretty soon LOL.

I think I made up 2 puns for the price of one!
--
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KrK
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Tulsa, OK

Re: Catchy title:

Yeah, and then the Terminator will be next to be Terminated when the Cereal State pounds him into the dirt as well....
sterilegenie
Onebase Linux

join:2001-06-07
Deltona, FL
clubs:

Also, what is the justification for the need of such taxes?

To further deepen the pockets of greedy politicians!
[text was edited by author 2003-07-09 15:56:42]

Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
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But seriously, does anybody know where this money is suppose to be going. In my opinion if we are paying taxes on the internet it oughtta be given right back to us in promoting the technology it is taxing us for using. Like maybe providing more computers and computer classes in schools so kids go to middle school knowing how to touch type and use a computer competantly. As good as kids are with computers I see a lot of kids in college who barely know how to use theirs and hunt and peck their way to a 4 page essay. Now adays kids in middle school are expected to do a lot of their papers type written. If we require them to do this why not provide them with the tools for how to do this. You're just expected to know how to make those margins 1" and such. Considering how much more our world will be dependant on computer in the 5 or so years, when they've graduated high school, we better do something fast to make sure our kids can keep up with Japan and India. This seems like a good oppurtunity to make that happen.
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rmdir

join:2003-03-13
Chicago, IL

Re: Catchy title:

said by Maxo See Profile:
But seriously, does anybody know where this money is suppose to be going.
Well, if it's anything like it is here in Illinois, and I suspect it is, it's going to jobs for friends, relatives and campaign contributors for elected politicians, and sweetheart no bid contracts for all their buds.
Hey boiled peanuts you're calling the wrong person a POS. The dictionary definition of a POS is our mayor, Richard Daley.

Hayward
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Key West, FL

said by Maxo See Profile:
Also, what is the justification for the need of such taxes?

No state income tax maybe???
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need some tea

@covad.net

And in Ohio, our "great" POS governor, Bob Taft, managed get a "temporary" two year sales tax increase of 1 penny (+23% increase), plus start taxing almost any kind of service provided (Car towing, nail salons, hair cutting, etc} that was exempt before. Additionally, almost all license fees doubled (car plates, drivers license, marriage, etc). Now a week after being implemented, there's suddenly a budget surplus. This being his last term in office due to term limits, means we can't vote him out of office in 2005!

Wills

join:2001-01-03
Port Charlotte, FL

Why did I move here....

I have been to many states in this great nation and Florida is without a doubt the armpit of it all. I have lived here for 3 years and every day I am amazed at the crap the politicians here get away with.

This tax on this is just incredible. Our IT department would no longer be able to operate if this tax went through AND WE ARE A STATE AGENCY! We have a dozen T-1's, That's 24 routers on them alone if your counting. Not to mention our digital phone system being split to 300 users in 5 counties. And the bad thing is that this bill WILL pass unapposed.

Remarkably, everything in this state is almost as backwards and unbelievable as this. My current problem: I have a 20 year old septic system that needs replaced to the tune of almost $9000 dollars. In two years the city is coming though to install it's sewer system at a $4000 cost TO THE HOMEOWNER. Do you think I could get the county to just come hook me up now (considering the main sewer truck is already installed and save me the $9000 on the new septic system. Nope. They'd rather threaten to fine me $500 a day for not fixing my septic.

Then again, maybe we could accomplish more if less than half of this states population wasn't to decrepit to go vote.

Is hoping Jeb Bush gets hit by a bus a crime?
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Unit649
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Stockton, CA
·Comcast

Re: Why did I move here....

If you start running short on power, then you'll be just like California! The roads here have been bad for years, etc. We had a surplus 5 years ago and they didn't fix anything-just spent it on whatever. Now our vehicle licence fees are tripling, with none of it going to the roads, its real nice to pay triple just for the right to go out and damage your car when you hit a nice big pothole
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Unit649
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Oh, and just so you know-licence fees are already bad-I pay $44 a year for a 88 honda civic, the car is 14 years old. Next year it will be close to $80, and thats only because its not worth much. If the car is new, you'd probably be paying $200 before the new fees, and about $500 a year now.

And don't even ask about power, rates will be higher for 10 years thanks to the brillant "bailout" plan they came up with!
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Wills

join:2001-01-03
Port Charlotte, FL

Re: Why did I move here....

Don't whine to me about your vehicle registration. I lived in California and had to pay out of state registration on a 4 wheel drive vehicle. I was paying $480 a year and that was in '96.
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Unit649
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Stockton, CA
·Comcast

Re: Why did I move here....

Yeah, but you watch-thats the next thing they will try to raise in FL.

Mine isn't that bad because my car is 14 years old, but new cars people are getting downright rooked on-especially for the roads they get in return to drive them on.
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Brianv5
Low Level Functionary
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join:2001-01-20
Keyser, WV

Looking for things to tax

The only reason this is being thought of is to make up for the RED that they are in now. They can't raise other taxes enough to compensate so they have to find new things to make a tax for.

Here's an idea... quit paying $30 for a wrench with tax dollars and they wouldn't be in the red.
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oliphant5
Got Identity?
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join:2003-05-24
Corona, CA

And Jeb may want to run in 2008?

Not this this type of stuff under his belt. And for what? So the state can waste it as states typically do.

This should be titled, "How to run business out of your state."

N10Cities
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Roland, OK
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Re: And Jeb may want to run in 2008?

said by oliphant5 See Profile:
Not this this type of stuff under his belt. And for what? So the state can waste it as states typically do.

This should be titled, "How to run business out of your state."
The nursing home industry has almost washed it's hands of Florida. Jeb's lawyer buddies taking care of that!

oliphant5
Got Identity?
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Corona, CA

Re: And Jeb may want to run in 2008?

From what I've read in the St. Petersburg Times he just signed a state law that slowed the lawsuits and mandated increased staffing so that insurers could return to the state. But I'm not paying that close of attention to that kind of news so I could easily be missing something here.

Unit649
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·Comcast

California has been doing this for a few years now. No wonder why our unemployment rate is the highest ever. The "Silicon Valley" is barely that now, the last time I took a drive through Santa Clara all you see is "for lease" signs. About the only thing California HAS done for its economy is allow indian gaming-Nevada is hurting because of it.
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oliphant5
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Re: And Jeb may want to run in 2008?

Thanks okay, Nevada is getting all of Cali's fleeing businesses.

Unit649
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·Comcast

Re: And Jeb may want to run in 2008?

Oh yeah I know-thats why I worded it the way I did. The only impact Ca has on Nv is Gambling.

Kinda funny too-10% of CA is unemployed but gaming goes nuts here still. Why use your unemployment check to pay rent when you can lose it?
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link222

join:2001-12-21
Cranbury, NJ

From what I remember doing our comm bills

Florida was already one of the highest tax states for communications T1s / 56ks etc ....

See 11 replies to this post
Atog
Sanity Is Not Statistical

join:2003-02-11
West Palm Beach, FL

Isn't our state run by Republicans?

I thought those guys were supposed to be against tax increases...

Anyway, all they need to do to make money is legalize gambling. Problem solved.

See 6 replies to this post

calvoiper

join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA

VoIP is the intended victim here....

This looks like a pretty straight shot at Voice over Internet Protocol--I'll bet the whining Baby Bells of Florida (BS & VZ) are strongly behind it. The fact that the net will sweep up a lot of other products and services is just so much gravy for the whiners. Of course, the tax is on "substitutes" for their own offerings--so they won't get hit with it.

They'll claim that it will put their voice & data competitors "on an even footing" with their taxed services.

Horse hockey. If they hadn't taken a monopoly view for decades ("Who cares how much they tax our service? Everyone still has to buy it...") they wouldn't be so heavily taxed today.

Since they didn't defend their industry, it falls to the VoIPers to take it away from them.

Here's hoping the new taxes die along with the Whining Baby Bells....

Calvoiper
--
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Zoder

join:2002-04-16
Miami, FL

Re: VoIP is the intended victim here....

That's exactly what's happening. If you look at the statute it is clearly intended to tax private communications systems that would take business away from current communication providers. Most likely added to the bill in 2001 by the phone lobbyists.

202.11 (16) F.S. "Substitute communications system" means any telephone system, or other system capable of providing communications services, which a person purchases, installs, rents, or leases for his or her own use to provide himself or herself with services used as a substitute for any switched service or dedicated facility by which a dealer of communications services provides a communication path.

Now after being in law for almost 2 years the Department of Revenue is planning to change the way they interpret and enforce this part of the statute to include any private systems that include switches such as LANs and office telephone systems.

Wills

join:2001-01-03
Port Charlotte, FL

VoIP isn't going to happen in this state anytime soon. Most of this state is rural and growing to fast for the infastructe to keep up with at and the state is too cheap to do it right.

If the purpose of this bill was to collect money to redo the states infastructure I would be all for it. But all it's going to do is line political pockets.
--
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Uteck

@67.41.x.x

Does anyone remember the 1898 Phone Tax?

You would think some of the people in Floriduh would. That tax is still in effect to pay for the Spanish-American War. Congress thought it could tax a luxory that only the rich could afford, and then kept it in place.
If this tax is passed it will never go away. What tax has ever been repealed?

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
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Phoenix, AZ

Re: Does anyone remember the 1898 Phone Tax?

Some people are still paying extra for tone dialing!
rotbau

join:2000-08-24
Minneapolis, MN

Keep your hands off

Politicians need to keep their f'en hands off IT / Internet / Data policies. These idiots don't have a clue about the impact of their legislation and don't know the first thing about technology.

Passing legislation like this could kill a lot of small and not so small companies. Just what the economy needs

Grrrrr..

1984 maybe

@covad.net

Re: Keep your hands off

It will just make "criminals" out of everyone not reporting their LANs for taxes. I suppose that would be a good use of the TIA/Homeland Security force to alert the tax agency's to where those illegal "terrorist" LANs are located. Then the FBI can have a few more Waco's and Ruby Ridges trying to sieze those illegal, non-taxed LAN's. Ahh for the good ol'days of 1984...
Mandrake981

join:2003-07-08
Shalimar, FL

You want to know what they'll spend it on???

Try driving I-10 through Florida sometime. I've lived in SouthWest Florida all my life, and they've been doing road construction on it as long as I can remember. They tear it up, repave it, and then tear it up again. They just need to make the state flag an "under construction" sign. Then, to top it all off, you drive through miles of construction, and see 4 or 5 people actually working. The rest are supervising the supervisors. I-10 will *never* be fixed, as it means more money for them the following year... So we just have to deal with it. Then people wonder why the state of Florida has such a deficit...

banditws6
Shrinking Time and Distance

join:2001-08-18
Naples, FL
·Comcast

Re: You want to know what they'll spend it on???

I hear you there. In my town they recently announced they were going to widen a two-mile stretch of one small county road from 2 lanes to 6. Estimated time to completion: Three years.

Oy.
--
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Unit649
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Stockton, CA
·Comcast

Re: You want to know what they'll spend it on???

Of course, when the work crew consists of 20 guys, 19 of which lean on their shovels and watch the 20th work, you expect 2 miles of roadway in less time?

I watched a county crew last week patching a hole at the end of my street. One guy operating a backhoe, one driving the dump truck that was taking off what he was digging out, 5 guys leaning on shovels watching, and one guy standing with a flag in his hand in case a car came (I live on a dead end street).

And the city here is complaining about budget problems and plans to cut 5% of the police force.

If 2 people can do the job, why have 8 on the crew?
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91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power

join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT

Hey, hey.. this sounds like Connecticut's I-84 and I-95 interstates... constant delays, construction constantly... drive 10 miles, hit another construction delay... it wasn't like this until about 3 years ago. And now we have state income tax... seems like they are creating 'make work' programs for the highway men.
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Wills

join:2001-01-03
Port Charlotte, FL
Look at Interstate 4....worlds largest parking lot.

Camelot One
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-21
Sarasota, FL
clubs:

I'm already seeing this "split" in services....

I am already seeing a split in the price on my DSL service, which is through a 3rd party carrier. I pay 2 USF fees on my phone lines, plus a $6 line access charge on the first, and a $7 line access charge on the second. Then my DSL bill is split up into 3 sections:
DSL Circuit
DSL Circuit 9.5% USF fee
ISP Service

The DSL Circuit USF fee just went from 9 to 9.5% this month.

Where the hell is this money going? More importantly, where do they think the state has any right to put an ADDITIONAL tax on communications equipment not owned or operated by the state? If a company owns a router, they paid for it, paid sales tax on it, and now you want more? What is this company getting in return for this communications equipment tax?
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Unit649
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Premium
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Stockton, CA
·Comcast

Re: I'm already seeing this "split" in services....

Its almost like they want to do the same they have done to cell phones-when you get a $29.95 plan, its at least $36 when the bill comes.

Now they are just doing that to internet too.
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Zoder

join:2002-04-16
Miami, FL
The USF is a federal tax not state and yes it was raised recently because the baby bells were complaining that other companies weren't paying their "fair share".

woody7
Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA

getting to be just like CA

Need I say more..........

panth1
The Coyote

join:2000-12-11
Boca Raton, FL

Tax this ass...

Usually when you say "Tax" as a politician in Florida, you can kiss that ass goodbye next election.

I got my lips ready...
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3SGTE
ST215W
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
there
clubs:

Taxed in to the dark ages

I cannot understand the logic.

The only effect I can see these taxes having is that of punishing businesses. How in heck are you supposed to encourage growth with punishing taxes like that?

It will stifle/slow progress of businesses in Florida.
Compare that to businesses outside of Florida, say, 10 years from now, and there will be pronounced differences.

Why not rename it the "Dark Ages Tax"?

Even those businesses that may benefit in the short term will eventually suffer as economic growth stagnates.

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GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL

First pass...

Haven't read through the attached docs yet, but my first pass at this is that I'm not at all shocked. Between the class size amendment and other such things, Jeb made it pretty clear he'd either cut one thing or tax something else to pay for those programs.

Thing that ticks me off is the ignorance around which most of this is done. Gee, we need more $$ since we have NO state income tax (guess what segment of the population got that taken care of!) we get taxed on EVERYTHING else. It really is a cut off the nose to spite the face type of thing.

The state (relatively speaking) has no cash, and neither to local & county govts. Thus, tax after tax.

I would have to review the docs to see if there is any real possible impact of this on home network installs or business network installs as the above summary suggests might be the case. Somehow that doesn't seem feasible, but then again stranger things have happened.

K.
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TheGlobalMind.com 
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Forums » Florida Tax Agenda


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