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Tapping Internet Telephony
The FBI works to close 'security black hole'
(old news - 01:02PM Tuesday Apr 15 2003)
tags: security · privacy
Recent advancements in Broadband and internet telephony communications has the government spooked, so they've put VOIP surveillance at the top of their priority list, working with hardware manufacturers to make sure they get their man. As we've mentioned in the past, Jeff Pulver won a recent court victory which declares that his "Free World Dial-Up" VOIP service is not subject to the same legal guidelines faced by telcos. This of course has the FBI worried that all sorts of nasty terrorists will now be using VOIP as a secured method of communication to avoid being tapped.

Pulver also took things one step further by requesting a "declaratory ruling" that Free World Dial-Up should exist outside the FCC's jurisdiction entirely, and that it was simply another web application like an instant messaging service or e-mail. (You can find a pdf copy of the request here) Of course his moves haven't made him a popular man among telcos who worry about unregulated competition; or the FBI, who don't like the idea of an untouchable communication medium.

That's where the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA) comes in. Its purpose was to force telecom companies to make their networks "wiretap friendly" for Uncle Sam. Since it was originally drafted in 1994, it's obviously not fully applicable to VOIP communications; though the FBI is working hard to make it stretch to fit, even though most analysts don't believe that's a legal battle the FBI can win.

The FBI is now afraid that other services like Free World Dial-Up, if not clearly defined and addressed by monitoring laws, will follow suit and begin thinking their exempt to the CALEA (which they very well may be). The FBI has voiced concern that such a shift creates a "security black hole" and births a communications stream that they'll have little control over (ignoring the fact that in the end they'll likely use technologies like Carnivore and Echelon to simply get the surveillance data they need anyway).

With concerns of terrorism front and center they've begun working more closely with hardware manufacturers to ease their worried minds. Last week a company named MetaSwitch unveiled a switch that embeds police spy features into its hardware to comply with the CALEA. "We simplified providing CALEA compliance for our customers by incorporating CALEA functionality on-board the MetaSwitch VP3500 rather than requiring additional external equipment", said John Lazar, Vice President of Sales and Marketing. "We are ensuring the completeness of our solution with ongoing testing with the FBI."

Many critics aren't shocked by the FBI's approach, and think back to 1999 when the door was left ajar on the issue of internet monitoring by the Internet Engineering Task Force. By not settling the issue then (which at the time was seen as a privacy and civil victory), you've now got the FBI working quietly behind closed doors with manufacturers to build proprietary monitoring solutions.

Washington D.C. Attorney Stewart Baker responds to the Politech mailing list with an utter lack of surprise, noting that this recent shift is "just the tip of the iceberg."

With the Justice department working their hardest to modify the CALEA to apply to data networks, (thereby obliterating the dividing line between data and telco communications) Baker notes that hardware makers planning for success are best served by building CALEA functionality into their products. He also notes that "it's tempting to offer a new generation of equipment that the FBI may require your customers to buy."

You can find discussion on these and similar issues within our VOIP, Security, and Broadband Politics forums

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Forums » Tapping Internet Telephony
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vic102482
Premium
join:2002-04-30
Upper Marlboro, MD
·Verizon FIOS

FBI has already made their first mistake

I can tell you right now, by going commecial and contracting out to these consumer based companies, they are making a mistake. The NSA makes a point not to do exactly that. The FBI can monitor, but like their war on Warez VERY few will be cought doing anything.

I doubt they will few if any terrorists at all with this form of attack.

What terrorist is using VOIP anyways?
--
I tie a rope around my penis and jump from a tree, don't you wanna grow up to be just like me!!!!

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Host:
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edited

Re: FBI has already made their first mistake

Actually the organizations controlling the drug pipelines from Columbia to the U.S. are much more technically savvy than the FBI has ever been, I'd not be surprised to know that they'd been using it for quite a while....

Terrorists though at this point are probably too busy hiding and running for their lives. I'm also guessing that those 10 responsible for the Cole bombing who escaped from prison last week probably did it without Vonage's help.


[text was edited by author 2003-04-15 15:25:31]

calvoiper

join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
·Comcast Formerly ..

Re: FBI has already made their first mistake

And does anyone anywhere think the FBI will be able to force non-US producers to meet these standards?

Heck no. The rest of the world, including all the bad guys, will have real products, while American producers will be wondering why nobody wants to buy their not-quite-real stuff.

Calvoiper
--
VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies!
vic102482
Premium
join:2002-04-30
Upper Marlboro, MD
·Verizon FIOS

Re: FBI has already made their first mistake

said by calvoiper See Profile:
And does anyone anywhere think the FBI will be able to force non-US producers to meet these standards?

Heck no. The rest of the world, including all the bad guys, will have real products, while American producers will be wondering why nobody wants to buy their not-quite-real stuff. Over worked, and understaffed.

Calvoiper

You are right, but even IF they did, thats like sending 5 people to moniter all of new york. Like using a balloon to stop a fregiht train. The FBI just doesnt have the resources, alot of people dont know, but they operate JUST like Cops.

CIA on the other hand lol.....
--
I tie a rope around my penis and jump from a tree, don't you wanna grow up to be just like me!!!!

cyberthugin

join:2002-03-12
Kew Gardens, NY

I agree to that statement, I heard stories that the drug cartel has a database of American's traveling to their country, which is tied into their kidnap list. I agree some terrorist are more advance than the government. But I dont think that even if the FBI were to have the upper hand they'd win, the terrorist can just simply use primitive ways of communicating, for example like using pigeons or doves, sounds ancient. But anyways, denial of the use of VOIP just sets us back a few more years plus slowly but surely another freedom being taken away from politcal mobster bush and his gang.

TheMadSwede
Premium
join:2001-01-30
Holland, MI
·Charter Pipeline

said by vic102482 See Profile:
What terrorist is using VOIP anyways?

With all this publicity, a better question might now be what terrorist isn't going to try to use VOIP?
--
Welp -- finally trying this cable thing out.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Re: FBI has already made their first mistake

Ah, the old "If we don't talk about it, nobody will know it's real" argument.
vic102482
Premium
join:2002-04-30
Upper Marlboro, MD
·Verizon FIOS

said by TheMadSwede See Profile:
said by vic102482 See Profile:
What terrorist is using VOIP anyways?

With all this publicity, a better question might now be what terrorist isn't going to try to use VOIP?

Hahaha I know right.
--
I tie a rope around my penis and jump from a tree, don't you wanna grow up to be just like me!!!!
Beeper
Part Of The Problem

join:2001-09-27
Dayton, OH
clubs:

said by vic102482 See Profile:

What terrorist is using VOIP anyways?

I agree. They won't. They'll use a sneaker net of couriers.
--
Guaranteed Fear and Loathing. Abandon all hope. Prepare for the Weirdness. Get familiar with Cannibalism.

Agent_haito

join:2002-09-20
Winston Salem, NC

*Tap Tap Tap*

Hello McFly..Can you hear me?

Like buying a new door for your house that the Feds already have a key to...

methinks the snowball has had too much momentum to stop folx..

You'll be buying your onetime activation Software, to use with your Palladium DRM friendly Intel pentium 4 hardware, to connect to the approved Internet sites your state may allow(Pennsylvania) with no firewall to hide your IP from the RIAA to use your VOIP connection that the feds can listen to. Oh and you better not go over your CAP limits, bandwidth hog!!!

ronpin
Imagine Reality

join:2002-12-06
Nirvana
·AT&T Southwest
·Charter Pipeline

Stupid is as Stupid does

Its just another buffoon job's program. The USA makes itself a coveted terrorist target by being the Asses of Evil and then cites an overwhelming need to control terrorism. 'Sorta like the "drug-war" eh? Lets make stupid drug laws and kill anyone attempting to cash-in on the government-made market. Is a Phd absolutely required to become an idiot? or does it just come with government service?

mr sean
Professional Infidel
Premium,ExMod 2001-07
join:2001-04-03
N. Absentia
clubs:

Re: Stupid is as Stupid does

You...you...you mean that the Government doesn't have our best interests at heart?

I'm shocked!
Shocked, I say!
--
Sunt lacrimae rerum et mentem mortalia tangunt.

garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY
·Insight Communicat..

LOL-like Bill Hicks used to say:

there's a war on drugs....and we're losing...do you know what that implies? that there is a war, and the people on drugs are winning! you're sitting there watching saturday night live with your buddies saying "looks like I've got my flank covered!"
jonnyzor

join:2002-07-28
San Jose, CA

WHAT EVER!!!

You liberals are just running your mouths off again. When will you ever learn. Since Bush kicked you to the curb about Iraq, you are going to find other ways of brining him down. News Flash!!! You can try all you want but nothing is going to stick. Just give it up, throw in the towel. You guys lost!!

Agent_haito

join:2002-09-20
Winston Salem, NC

Re: WHAT EVER!!!

Ha and the Chimp never won....the economy's in the crapper, the unemployment rate gets better each month, a stupid a$$ tax cute plan, a lame overtime pay bill, a Permanent Patriot Bill,and you are telling Liberals to give it up..why would anybody give up on their country....America will get back to it's Glory days but it will be without the Chimp in the office...

mr sean
Professional Infidel
Premium,ExMod 2001-07
join:2001-04-03
N. Absentia
clubs:

I'm amazed an article and a thread that, until your comments jonnyzor See Profile, made no mention of Bush, has suddenly become the propaganda tool of some secret Liberal cabal.

I should have known....
Those darn commie-pinkos are everywhere.
--
Sunt lacrimae rerum et mentem mortalia tangunt.

garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY
Blah blah conservatives blah blah blah you right wingers blah blah blippity blah....blather banter prattle....

Just as effective as your approach.

wozster
Premium
join:2000-10-21
Lenexa, KS

Liberals? I think you meant Libertarians

This is not a Democrat or Republican issue, it's a privacy issue.

Perhaps you should become more familiar with the Fourth Amendment.

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
--
Protect online free speech
Beeper
Part Of The Problem

join:2001-09-27
Dayton, OH
clubs:

Re: WHAT EVER!!!

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Look at the 4th Amendment again.
--
Guaranteed Fear and Loathing. Abandon all hope. Prepare for the Weirdness. Get familiar with Cannibalism.

garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY

Re: WHAT EVER!!!

So who defines unreasonable, eh?

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Another fool. I wuv Shrub! I wuv Shrub!

Ok, sell out our Founding Fathers and welcome to Big Brother. Thanks, but no thanks.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

TheMadSwede
Premium
join:2001-01-30
Holland, MI
·Charter Pipeline

Real effective...

Real good folks - the best thing to do when we all need to stick together the most is to have a political pissing contest. There's drops on the front of both of your trousers by the way...

If we'd stop blaming single people and administrations for their good or bad actions, maybe we'd get somewhere. Do you really think the poor economy is the fault of the current administration? Remember that not every administration has an manic, irrational internet boom to buoy its efforts.

And as for the Limaughian efforts to come in here and show up the "liberals", grow up.

The problem is that we all want to define good and bad by pointing at one person or another, when the line runs right down the middle of all of us.
--
Welp -- finally trying this cable thing out.

Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
·Embarq

Re: Real effective...

I agree, this is not a Democrats vs. Republicans, Liberals vs. Conservatives, or Socialist vs. Capitalist issue. It's about preserving our rights gaurunteed in the constitution. We should all fight this. If you are on the right you don't like big government right? This is big government aimed at spying on the citizens of this country. If you are on the right you don't like big brother telling you what to do right? Then you should support this. Were you born in this country? Do you love this country? Do you believe the constitution is the end all of whether or not a law should be passed? Then by all meens you should fight this.
The government is scared of the internet because it has been taken over by EVERYONE from every different kind of background and turned into a working Anarchy that is more efficient than it could ever imagine to be with all of its diplomas and experts ran by people with no official training or merits of any kind. Just geniune self-taught knowledge. The government is scared and knows it can never control it because it has them beat in every aspect. That is why it will always be on our heals trying to make us stop being some damn good at this internet thing. But it will never win because we've got them out-maned and out-gunned 10:1 with a much more efficeint system that exists in areas it has no jurisdiction in.
This is not about whether or not you like Bush, the War, are pleased with the economy, or want to drill into Alaska. This is about our global community uniting to keep our sovereignety against an organisation that has failed at it's own stated task.
--
Militarily speaking its only fair to say that Cobra Commander is a world class bafoon - Destrohttp://maxolasersquad.com
de_montefixo
Premium
join:2002-11-11
Los Gatos, CA

And another thing...

Ever wonder why with all this great technology and the massive amounts of fiber in our neighborhoods why we still can't have it to the house?

I may be off-base, but how would a police agency easily "tap" your stream of light? Copper? No problem, just piggyback the line...Glass? hmm, no light, no service...perhaps from the CO but that would be a nightmare, maybe I'm paranoid...

Suzuki Kid

join:2002-01-16
Allison Park, PA

Can we say YOU SUCK?!?!

Yeah, whatever happend to freedom of speech?!!? Guess we can go and throw that right out the window!

DHRacer
Fire Survivor

join:2000-10-10
Lake Arrowhead, CA
·Verizon west (ex G..
·Charter Pipeline

Uh, guys...?

How about no one buys this hardware with this built in?

If we don't adopt the hardware that can do it, what company would make a product that won't sell?

How can the FBI alter the fabric of the internet quickly enough that all of us have to go out and buy this crap so we can get online?

The internet is WORLD-WIDE you FBI people, you can't just turn it off in our country and claim victory. This may be a case where the government is too dumb for it's own good.

FBI=Freedom Breakdown Imminent

DrTCP
Yours truly
Premium,ExMod 1999-04
join:1999-11-09
Round Rock, TX

Re: Uh, guys...?

said by DHRacer See Profile:
How about no one buys this hardware with this built in?
They will have the service providers to buy tapping friendly equipment. No, they do not need that sort of equipment on your end. They need it on the service provider's end.
dcpimp

join:2001-01-13
Cleveland, OH


edited

Instead of wasting money and time

lets just roll all countries that have anti-west ideoligies?
Kill em all, and my kids won't have to worry. I for 1 laugh that saddam hussein had a friggin country for years that could be took over in days, let the military do, what our tax dollars in the U.S.A go toward. Terrorism will cease and disist. go ahead and hate on me, but 20 years of kingship gone in under a month? lmfao syria, iran, lets take all of it and be done. and while I'm at it....France can bow and so can russia. Korea----- please pull outta the region and show them all hiroshima revisited. they will weep
more than we do.
[text was edited by author 2003-04-15 18:54:49]
ross

join:2000-08-16
·Digizip


edited

Re: Instead of wasting time and money...

I guess its bonehead day on DSLR again. That is the most tenuous tangential post in the thread. How did you come up with this spew? This thread is about the most pervasive, best financed, and most insidious attack on our constitutional democracy and our basic civil liberties in our country's history. It is being led not by foreign terrorists, but by our own government at the direction of private interests bent on global domination and the enslavement of our own people.

Falling in line with the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Ashchroft Cabal shouting for unprovoked, preemptive aggression against sovereign states in the Middle East and elsewhere is bad enough. Your advocation of the annihilation of whole peoples by use of nuclear weapons is beyond belief.
[text was edited by author 2003-04-15 21:39:01]

[text was edited by author 2003-04-15 21:39:59]

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest

Re: Instead of wasting time and money...

Except, it would be kinda cool.

Ren & Stimpy flashback !

Yeah... Prezident.... wow... Prezident....

What?!? What do you mean you don't agree with me?!? DON'T YOU KNOW WHO YOU'RE DEALING WITH!

WHAM! (thumb on Red Button)

(BLAM!) A chunk of the Earth breaks off....


--
"When the day comes that anyone can bend our country’s laws and lawmakers to serve selfish, competitive ends, that day democratic government dies" -- Preston Tucker, 1948 (Yep, it's dead.)
Beeper
Part Of The Problem

join:2001-09-27
Dayton, OH
clubs:

said by ross See Profile:
I guess its bonehead day on DSLR again.

Falling in line with the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Ashchroft Cabal
Bonehead Day indeed.
--
Guaranteed Fear and Loathing. Abandon all hope. Prepare for the Weirdness. Get familiar with Cannibalism.
dcpimp

join:2001-01-13
Cleveland, OH

Re: Instead of wasting time and money...

Bonehead? haha I still remember the towers falling and our own people were in those buildings and the innocent who were on those flights. Why don't you go tell the widows, orphans, grandparents left without anyone, why you think NOT kickin butt over there is a better idea. I for one would rather see the money spent on bombs than to live in fear.

aurgathor

join:2002-12-01
Lynnwood, WA
·Verizon west (ex G..

I can see a backdoor already

Someone outside of the US is going to write an encoder that encrypts the data before it's transmitted. On the receiving end you need the same SW and a password, and maybe some other measures to prevent unauthorized listening.

That's all it takes to have the government agencies screwed on this issue.
dcpimp

join:2001-01-13
Cleveland, OH

Re: I can see a backdoor already

exactly my point. thank you
shaun91574

join:2002-08-06
Myrtle Beach, SC

Finly a "Chimp" with a Big set of Balls

You said it DCPIMP. We have the means to solve these problems ie terrorist and drug war. The Pres fainly stoped playing aroung and stomed on that bug "sadumb" Get rid of the rest of these guys and let us have our FREEdom back!!! As for the drug war?? ake it legal and tax the hell out of it. going to need the money to stomp the bugs......
Why do the polotitions keep taking out freedoms and saying it for the common good???
ross

join:2000-08-16
·Digizip

Re: Finly a "Chimp" with a Big set of Balls

You and DCPIMP should pool your mental acuity; one of you could hold the one thought while the other could learn to type it in common English (American, of course) with correct spelling and grammar.

I breathlessly await your further elucidation.

MrTangent

join:2001-12-28
Earth

Excuse the mess...


--
"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength"

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

Re: Excuse the mess...

Suspicion breeds Confidence!

calvoiper

join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
·Comcast Formerly ..

Just like encryption.....

So I guess that just like "strong" encryption, the FBI will keep US producers out of the world market by forcing them to adopt some less secure method while the world (and incidentally, those terrorists who don't travel to suburban D.C. to BestBuy, Circuit City, or CompUSA for their gear) just buys foreign products with the features they want?

Sheesh! These guys are dumber than the telco monopolists!

Calvoiper
--
VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies!

LoStn In sPaCe

@attbi.co

Huh..

What was this original thread? We've gotten off the subject, don't you think?
Forums » Tapping Internet Telephony


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