Tri-Cities Broadband IntitiativeDebate emerges over project 'necessity' ( old news - 09:02AM Friday Jan 24 2003) tags: alternatives · cable After a long debate, the Illinois cities of Geneva, St. Charles, and Batavia will be asking voters what they think about the idea of a tri-city operated broadband network on April 1st (though apparently there's still some debate over the legality of doing so). Of course not everyone in the area is convinced that broadband is a " necessity of life", with arguments such as " I raised two very intelligent children without cable television and high-speed Internet. Necessity of life? Whose life?" One area resident informs us that the municipal broadband plan has stirred regional provider AT&T from a long slumber. BK3 writes: " I find it strange that, after years of putting it off, AT&T all of a sudden sends me a letter saying that they will be upgrading the cable system in my area (Geneva, IL), so that I can get enhanced services like cable broadband. I say that it is strange because of the timing of it. AT&T has been putting off the work (for years) until now, when the tri-city area is thinking about doing it on their own, without the help of a big telco/ISP/Broadband provider."
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 | kmoss
join:2002-09-14
Lisle, IL
| Typical ATT's response to these towns getting serious is oh so typical. When there is no competition, they take their own sweet time in building out service. As soon as something else starts rolling out, upgrades begin immediately. I never could figure out why so many Chicago-land communities that do not qualify for DSL also do not qualify for cable modem service. Yet, the communities where DSL is somewhat available, ATT has been racing to deploy (Aurora). My thought, good for these towns - stick it to ATT and hold out for DSDN. | |
|  | circuitry6
join:2002-07-11
Warrenville, IL
edited
| Re: Typical This is more true than you could ever imagine! I live in Geneva, IL (one of the towns described in this article). Anyway, I just received a letter from ATT last week that said that they would be in my neighborhood upgrading their systems to support broadband Internet and digital phone services.
The only problem is that I already have DSL with SBC/Ameritech. So I tore up the letter and threw it away. All I can say to ATT is: where were you 3 years ago!?!? SBC gets, and will continue to get, my business because they were first!
If nothing else becomes of this municipal broadband thing here in the Tri-cities, at least it got ATT off their a$$'s and made them start upgrading their networks. But it's a little too much a little too late. I am happy with my SBC/Ameritech DSL and I will not be switching over.
[text was edited by author 2003-01-24 13:31:30] | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
| Re: Typical said by circuitry6  :
All I can say to ATT is: where were you 3 years ago!?!?
Sounds like what happened with me and Verizon. Comcast was the first company to get broadband to my house. If Verizon ever bothers to offer DSL here, I'm gonna tell them to shove it.
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DRM == Doesn't Read MP3s | |
| mwf
join:2000-11-26
Granite Quarry, NC
 ·Vonage
| Amen "I raised two very intelligent children without cable television and high-speed Internet. Necessity of life? Whose life?"
What's the point of teaching a kid how to use the internet if he can't read or write? Why do schools spend so much money on computers when they can't buy books for their classes and libraries? | |
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cybermud
join:2000-08-25
Chicago, IL
 ·Comcast Workplace
| Re: Amen said by mwf :
What's the point of teaching a kid how to use the internet if he can't read or write? Why do schools spend so much money on computers when they can't buy books for their classes and libraries?
Who brought schools into this? But if you must know, when I attended St. Charles High School in the mid-90's, I had brand-new or almost new books for every class every year. As of 2001, spending per pupil at the high school was well over $7,000, and 80 percent of students passed standardized writing tests, according to the Chicago Tribune. These towns are generally fiscally responsible, so thats why there is debate...but the money is there for this project. | |
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Aramis604
I Represent Nobody But Myself.
join:2000-12-15
Poway, CA
clubs:
edited
| said by mwf:
What's the point of teaching a kid how to use the internet if he can't read or write?
For all intensive purposes you can not use the internet if you can't read.
There are many uses for the internet in schools, most of which could be turned into great ways to cut down costs to run the school.
Necessity, probably not... but a very effective learning aid.
[text was edited by author 2003-01-24 11:48:59] | |
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matt986634
join:2002-08-28
Dyer, IN | Cannot figure this one out I honestly do not know why these towns have been passed over. All three of them are upscale areas. I would have though that the cable companies would have jumped all over them. | |
| | ricep5
Premium
join:2000-08-07
Jacksonville, FL
·Comcast Formerly ..
·AT&T CallVantage
 ·AT&T Southeast
| Re: Cannot figure this one out It is easy to know why they were passed over initially.
Density.
The Tri Cities were originally old small river towns. The expansion of these towns have been in the periphery and with very large lot sizes. When you have only 5 customers per 1000 cable feet as opposed to more dense cities where you can have up to 30 customers per 1000 cable feet, who do you think will get service quicker?
The old parts of these towns are made up of long time residents who have been there 20+ years. The people demanding more service are the newer residents of which most live on the periphery.
It helps to know the socioeconomic and demographic nature of the area you serve. While I think AT&T should be knocked around a little, it appears they had some decisions based on research. | |
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garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY
·Insight Communicat..
| other non-necessities of life Street Lights
Cars, roads, signals, road signs
Airports
What do these have in common? Your government decided that they were "necessary" enough to justify an investment in infrastructure to bring the citizens these "necessities" to improve the quality of life.
What's the difference with these and broadband access? Perception. At the time the first roads for automobiles were built, I'm sure the same hackney-eyed arguments were used to try and keep them from being built, along with airports, cable right of ways, etc.
Time changes these perceptions. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
| Re: other non-necessities of life said by garagerock :
Street Lights
Cars, roads, signals, road signs
Airports
What do these have in common? Your government decided that they were "necessary" enough to justify an investment in infrastructure to bring the citizens these "necessities" to improve the quality of life.
The main difference here is that I am not being forced to pay for street lights, road, signals and road signs. The gas taxes and other motor vehicle fees which I pay based on the type of vehicle I own (trucks pay more than cars, etc.) and the amount of miles I drive (not a direct per-mileage tax, if I drive more, I buy more gas and pay more in gas taxes) pay them. If I didn't want to pay these taxes, then I could choose to not have a car and not pay them. As for airports, these are almost always paid for in the form of taxes and fees on airlines and passengers. If I don't fly, then I don't pay these taxes. The general tax base is not being used to finance these things.
Perhaps the people who do want government provided broadband should voluntarily choose to pay extra money out of their pockets to pay for it. Ideally, I think those people who want broadband should band together themselves and take care of the problem on their own. Let the government get out of their way in the process as well.
We need to keep in mind that some people aren't interested in broadband, and they should not have their taxes raised to pay for it. You could also say that some people aren't interested in driving or flying and they do neither. As a result, none of their money is paid into the specific forms of taxation which finance these means of transportation.
And another thing. State and local governments all over the USA are having major budget problems because they spend more than they take in taxes. What kind of irresponsible city government proposes these kinds of extraneous expenditures in a time like this (or any other time)? This project will be like all other government projects, under-estimated and over-financed. Taxes will have to increase to cover the costs, that is a guarantee.
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DRM == Doesn't Read MP3s | |
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garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY
·Insight Communicat..
| Re: other non-necessities of life quote:
The main difference here is that I am not being forced to pay for street lights, road, signals and road signs.
Somebody was at sometime back in history. Your turn in the barrel to fund this technological leap forward.
quote:
As for airports, these are almost always paid for in the form of taxes and fees on airlines and passengers
I wish that were true. The airport here was paid for in bonds, tax money, and low interest loans subsidized by the local gov't.
quote:
You could also say that some people aren't interested in driving or flying and they do neither
quote:
If I didn't want to pay these taxes, then I could choose to not have a car and not pay them.
Yeah, right. I wish. I'd go fetch some quick facts, but the notion there are enough people who aren't driving to support your argument is, plainly, pretty laughable. The U.S. drives more than anyone. Don't want to drive? Do you live within the bus route from work? Plan on walking in sub-zero weather?? Commuter train?
Any public transportation you take is going to be funded by tax dollars-better not use what you're already paying for. | |
| | | | kmoss
join:2002-09-14
Lisle, IL
| Re: other non-necessities of life I don't have children, but a nice hefty portion of my property tax goes toward my local school district. You think my neighbors with children should "band together" and "voluntarily pay extra" out of their own pocket to fund the school districts? Get real!! Broadband availability is good for everyone in America. It's a technology that will provide jobs to the youth of this country for decades. The internet is an interactive tool, unlike cable tv (which can be mind-numbing). Depriving children of broadband access or internet access in general puts them at a disadvantage against kids who know the internet and it's fundamental structure. Sure, some property taxes I pay go toward my school district - but I'm glad that my money is going toward those schools getting the funding necessary to remain competitive and providing the best education level it can. pnh102 is just plain old cheap. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
edited
| Re: other non-necessities of life said by kmoss :
I don't have children, but a nice hefty portion of my property tax goes toward my local school district. You think my neighbors with children should "band together" and "voluntarily pay extra" out of their own pocket to fund the school districts?
Absolutely. If you want to have kids, pay for them yourself. As a person with no kids, I am tired of paying higher and higher property taxes each year for schools I don't use. But realistically, there should be good schools available to all kids if the parents want to send them there. Should broadband deployment trump good education? If you keep taxes constant and then use tax money to pay for broadband, you will have to cut money from something else. You want your school system, police, fire, EMTs and other services to suffer? Then start wasting money on broadband and other boondoggles and it will happen.
said by kmoss :
pnh102 is just plain old cheap.
Yes I am. If you want everyone to have broadband, you can open your wallet, checkbook or whatever and give as much money to the effort to wire up all these places. I don't want to pay for it, so don't ask me to pay for it.
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DRM == Doesn't Read MP3s
[text was edited by author 2003-01-24 13:53:04] | |
| | | | | | kmoss
join:2002-09-14
Lisle, IL | Re: other non-necessities of life Well I don't want to pay taxes to support the fire department, police department, and city upkeep so you can enjoy a high standard of living - so don't ask ME to pay for YOUR police force.
Cheap bastard. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
| Re: other non-necessities of life said by kmoss :
Well I don't want to pay taxes to support the fire department, police department, and city upkeep so you can enjoy a high standard of living - so don't ask ME to pay for YOUR police force.
Well than what do you want? Good schools, police, fire protection and city upkeep? Or high speed broadband, high crime, raging fires, and schools full of idiots? Its quite shortsighted of you to lump broadband into the same class/priority of services that you would put police, fire and education.
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DRM == Doesn't Read MP3s | |
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DonChicago
Copper-Free Last-Mile
join:2002-02-10
Lincolnshire, IL
| Can you spell B O O N D O G G L E ? Various communities around the US have tried this effort, some with success, but most were fiscal failures. Why anyone would think that the local governments should get into the business of competing with the businesses they tax is beyond me. I suggest that they let the market take its course. Where there is legitimate demand for a service, private enterprise will deliver it more efficiently at less cost than any local government.
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My network is 98% copper-free | |
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BK3
join:2001-04-10
Geneva, IL
·AT&T Yahoo
| Re: Can you spell B O O N D O G G L E ? said by DonChicago :
Various communities around the US have tried this effort, some with success, but most were fiscal failures. Why anyone would think that the local governments should get into the business of competing with the businesses they tax is beyond me. I suggest that they let the market take its course. Where there is legitimate demand for a service, private enterprise will deliver it more efficiently at less cost than any local government.
We tried this method, and waited for years for some company to offer service. It was not until the tri-cities decided to do it on their own that AT&T BB finally decided to do something.
There is something else you need to know. In Geneva we have done many things without the "help" of big business. The city buys it's own electricity and maintains it's own electrical distribution/grid/billing. In fact they are looking into building their own generating plant (this is still on the drawing board). Same with sewer, water and other small projects. This is a very "home grown" centered community.
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Intelligent discussion is invited and encouraged. | |
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batageek
Slave To The Duopoly
Premium
join:2003-01-25
Batavia, IL
| Boondoggle nothing..
There has never been a muni cable system that has failed.
Not to mention the muni has to pay the same franchise fees and pole attachment fees that the private sector pays.
In addition, the feasibility study that was done has been audited by a competitor of the original consultant. They concur with the findings. This is a doable venture.
As one who has sat through the council meetings when Comcast & SBC have been present, they appear to be very interested in killing a project they say "isn't viable."
For more info, see »www.tricitybroadband.com | |
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batageek
Slave To The Duopoly
Premium
join:2003-01-25
Batavia, IL
| See »www.dailyherald.com/business/mai···3764843#
Towns take control of cable
Associated Press
Posted on January 27, 2003
If you ever wince after opening your cable bill, you're not going to like this: The good folks in Glasgow, Ky., pay $19 a month for 70 cable channels, and for an additional $25 they can get blazing fast Internet access.
How do they get prices nearly half the national average?
Because the city-owned electric utility provides cable TV and Internet access over wires that also monitor power usage in the town of 14,000. Glasgow isn't trying to profit from the service - just recover its costs.
Utility superintendent William Ray estimates that since Glasgow began offering cable in 1989, $32 million of residents' money has stayed in town that otherwise might have been vacuumed by giant telecommunications companies - which often don't offer advanced services in rural areas like Glasgow anyway.
"It's like an armored car wrecking in the streets once a year and spreading money in the streets for people to grab for themselves," Ray says.
Frustrated with the high cost and slow pace of broadband deployment in much of the country, 511 publicly owned utilities now provide telecom services for residents, schools, city agencies and their internal operations, up nearly 14 percent from a year ago, according to the American Public Power Association.
It's a plan three area towns are considering. Geneva, Batavia and St. Charles officials will ask voters in April if they should go ahead with a $62 million project to bury fiber-optic cables that would deliver telephone service, cable television and Internet access.
Tri-Cities residents on the municipal network could expect to pay $10.95 a month for 18 cable TV channels and $33.95 for 75 channels. It would cost another $26.95 for the basic Internet service if a resident already is a TV subscriber. It's estimated the average phone user would pay $27.95 a month.
Some utilities built networks from scratch. Others extended infrastructure they already had, such as fiber-optic lines and networking equipment needed to monitor power flow or remote substations.
Not surprisingly, big phone and cable companies hate this, and have fought with some success to block public gas, water and electric utilities from providing telecom services. Eleven states bar or restrict the practice, sometimes by imposing artificial costs on municipal telecoms so the prices they charge end up closer to what private companies offer.
But things may be looking up for municipal telecoms - thanks to recent favorable court rulings, weakness in the private telecom industry and a technological breakthrough that lets data be transmitted over power lines.
"A very large number of communities across the country are beginning to realize this is like the history of electrification all over again, and if they don't help themselves, they're not going to get advanced communications services any time in the foreseeable future," said Jim Baller, an attorney who has represented municipal telecoms in several cases. "Recognition of that is forcing legislatures to take a second look - even ones that had enacted barriers."
City-owned utilities - which generally buy their cable programming from a cooperative in Kansas and connect to the Internet by leasing facilities from big data carriers - don't have to be rivals of telecom companies.
For example, in Washington state, which prohibits utilities from selling retail telecom services, several public power providers are becoming "carriers' carriers" - building fiber networks that private Internet and phone providers can lease.
But generally, private companies say municipal telecoms create unfair competition because they have no need to make profits or pay off debts quickly, have preferential access to digging streets and other "rights of way" and are owned by cities that have regulatory power over the industry.
"The mere existence of the competition is not really an issue for us," said Rob Stoddard, spokesman for the National Cable & Telecommunications Association. "The issue is more that the competitive playing field seems tilted in favor of municipalities."
The industry's arguments also stray into other realms.
In Palo Alto, Calif., where the public utility is considering spending $50 million building fiber-optic connections to every home, a SBC Pacific Bell executive gave officials "MuniToons," a memo describing municipal telecoms as "folly."
Among its contentions: Municipal telecoms hurt a town's tax base and may violate the First Amendment by placing the distribution of media content under government ownership.
Baller, the utilities lawyer, believes nearly every sentence in MuniToons is "incorrect or misleading or a half-truth." Even SBC spokesman Kevin Belgrade said the document doesn't exactly reflect the company's position.
Richard Carlson, chairman of Palo Alto's utility advisory committee, wasn't swayed by Munitoons. Nevertheless, he worries that a civic fiber network might lose out to private competition or become obsolete in a few years.
Ultimately, the municipal telecom fight boils down to two words: "any" and "entity."
The 1996 Telecommunications Act - meant to usher the nation into the digital age - said no state or city could prohibit "any entity" from providing "any" telecom service.
With that in mind, officials in Abilene, Texas, asked the Federal Communications Commission to let them wire their own broadband network despite a 1995 Texas law banning municipal telecoms.
But the FCC agreed with phone and cable companies that Congress wasn't absolutely clear whether it meant for utilities to be "entities" protected by the law. The agency declined to overrule Texas.
A federal appeals court in Washington, D.C., let the decision stand.
Since then, a federal district court in Virginia and the Nebraska Supreme Court have seen things differently, ruling in favor of municipal telecoms. Most importantly, so has a federal appeals court in Missouri.
In hopes of getting clarity on the issue, Missouri's attorney general plans to appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court.
In the meantime, municipal telecoms are finding new ways to offer broadband - such as wireless antennas recently installed on water towers in Carthage, Mo. - and soon could have another method.
Private electric companies are experimenting with a new technology that delivers data over existing power lines. So is the city-owned electric utility in Manassas, Va., which provides broadband to city departments but not residents.
"The interest in that is very high," said Ron Lunt, the American Public Power Association's telecom director. "It is a natural fit."
• Daily Herald staff writer S.A. Mawhorr contributed to this report.
Copyright 2002 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. | |
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mabus
Dissociated But Not Disconnected
join:2002-11-12
Fort Wayne, IN
| sticking to the issue at hand.... the western suburbs of chicago are dotted with MANY areas that either only until recently got broadband or still don't have it. Many of these areas are somewhat affluent as well, with many willing customers.
This plan, considering that if the projected numbers are met, should be well self-sufficient: especially if the prices are to remain competitive.
I used to live in Lisle, IL which is just a stone's throw from the tri-cities area in question, and was told in summer of 2001 by AT&T broadband that internet access was at LEAST two years away. Also noteworthy is that many of the CO's serving the town were fiber-based and not equipped to handle DSL... So, the municipal government came up with a plan (I believe it is still only in the planning stages) to place wireless POP's on top of the city's water towers, which, when completed would cover 90%+ of the towns residents. Considering that wireless infrastructure in a moderately populated area costs less per subscriber than cable/DSL, if this comes to fruition, they will have effectively closed out any possible competion.
The tri-cities' plan is certainly not without some risk, and since the deal is more or less ready to be started on construction if the taxpayers vote yes, the majority has ruled and the risk accepted. Maybe people might not be as up-in-arms about a wireless plan instead if the cities were able to give adequate coverage.
The message here is that you can't please all the people all the time.
'nuff said.
-/\/\ | |
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mabus
Dissociated But Not Disconnected
join:2002-11-12
Fort Wayne, IN
edited
| Re: sticking to the issue at hand.... I forgot to mention, that although I don't know AT&T's (now comcast) current plans for the internet upgrade in Lisle, I do know that it still is NOT in place.
-/\/\
[text was edited by author 2003-01-24 13:38:27] | |
| tdouglas22
join:2001-09-25
Memphis, TN
| IMHO.... We need to keep in mind that some people aren't interested in broadband, and they should not have their taxes raised to pay for it. You could also say that some people aren't interested in driving or flying and they do neither. As a result, none of their money is paid into the specific forms of taxation which finance these means of transportation. It is also true that many people are not interested in health care and insurance as well. Yet there are many who need it and I don't see it being wrong to raise taxes to offer these services to more and more people. Of course not everyone would agree but oh well. Back to the broadband topic  ....... | |
| 
cmptrblder
join:2001-01-16
Altoona, PA
| BACK to the days of regulation..... Maybe what this country needs to go back to is MORE control over the cable industry. It's been stated here how cable rates have risen yearly, how the cable industry spends more on company buyouts than upgrades and how prices are low in duel provider markets. The providers can but won't upgrade, raise rates yearly but do not lower them and can extend service but won't because currently they can do what ever they want. Less deregulation only hurts the ones who always pay, the customer. If the goverment won't lookout for the best interest of the consumer and local goverment wants to give it a shot, GO FOR IT! | |
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batageek
Slave To The Duopoly
Premium
join:2003-01-25
Batavia, IL
| MORE INFO There's a TriCity citizen group formed to support this issue as it goes to referendum.
www.tricitybroadband.com
The site also links to all the info provided by the Cities during the study.
This is definitely a good thing for the TriCities. | |
| devicenull9
join:2003-01-20
Saint Charles, IL
| Definitely a Good Thing While waiting for college to startup in the fall because of me transfering schools, I am currently at home here in St Charles. I have to say that it has gotten incredibly annoying waiting for broadband. Finally when this plan was announced they put in an RT ~1000 feet from the house. now ATT is wiring up cable access FINALLY. Personally I think this is a win/win situation.. either we will end up with great service from the city, or we will end up with normal broadband. As far as the people complaining about "reading and writing in the schools" and "it's ther taxmoney". The schools here dont have problems with literacy, and most STC classrooms are wired up.. hell, i HELPED wire some of them up and setup the library labs. This is an upperclass area, people have money to blow, so they might as well blow it on something worthwhile. | |
| 
William Ray
@12.27.x.x
| Ahem...let me interject a fact or two... I am the fellow in the article, William Ray. I just want to point out that there was never and will never be a single tax dollar expended on our broadband project. We issued revenue bonds to finance it and they are repaid from the revenue it generates and has been doing so for 14 years now. How is it so cheap? Simple really, we built a new system and only charge for the actual cost of the debt service and O&M costs. The new system cost about $1000 per customer to build. Compare that to the roughly $3800 that Comcast just payed AT&T per subscriber and *poof* you can see why we can do it cheaper. This is why people create local governments...to do things for a people that they cannot do for themselves. Want to read more about this? Check out the many white papers, etc. at our website www.glasgow-ky.com/epb/ | |
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batageek
Slave To The Duopoly
Premium
join:2003-01-25
Batavia, IL
| Re: Ahem...let me interject a fact or two... William:
Nice to see you here. The TriCity Broadband citizen group would probably love to hear from you. Their website is at »www.tricitybroadband.com
I'm sure they could use some pointers as they work towards selling this to the people. | |
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