ISP's Nix Forum SupportScared and lazy, ISP's make helping a crime ( old news - 07:47PM Friday Dec 06 2002) tags: exclusive · BBR-News Apparently an organizational shift has occurred within the ranks at BellSouth, and the new management no longer approves of some technicians offering support in our BellSouth forum. As of December 31, many BellSouth employees will not be allowed to lend a hand in any official capacity. It's a growing trend among several of the larger providers, who believe that lending such assistance is more of a liability than an asset. Offering official tech support via public forums and newsgroups has allowed some ISP's to portray a more accessible image. In a 'Walmartized' business world that grows ever more impersonal and sterile each year, the web offers ISP's another conduit for personal contact with what used to be the most important part of a business relationship....the customer. PR issues aside, a public forum presence lessens the impact on call centers. With forums, a quick search usually un-earths someone who experienced your precise problem, offering a painless resolution and a bounty of technical advice. No hold times, and no recently hired, techno-deficient call center employees painfully stumbling over a support script like a teen pop idol taking his first stab at Shakespeare. More personal than a website faq or a half an hour on hold, tech-savvy forum reps can eliminate small problems before they become monstrous ones, saving everyone involved time and money. Better yet, many are doing so on their own time, costing the company not one red cent. Sounds good, right? Not necessarily. Companies naturally fear litigation, and dislike not being able to sanitize and spin information before it reaches the ears and eyes of their customers. Particularly horrifying to them is the idea of out-sourced or third party support reps acting as vessels of the corporate gospel. So instead of spending twenty minutes drafting clear corporate policy on public forum relations protocol, some companies clamp down on such activities; sometimes brutally. One Cox communications technician managed to solve a nagging loss of sync problem faced by a customer last spring in our Cox forum. Instead of a pat on the back, he wound up receiving a phone call from a manager in another district he'd never even met, threatening his job security if he didn't stop posting. Comcast has likewise cast a disapproving eye on technicians offering a lending hand, many of whom have deleted their accounts for fear of being singled out and admonished. According to one ex-Roadrunner employee we spoke to, they were fired for violating a non-existent public forum non-disclosure agreement, and for identifying themselves as a Roadrunner employee in our forums. They were also accused of "divulging information that was sensitive to the company", despite the fact that the majority of the posts contained harmless support tips available via the company's technical support department. After a protracted legal battle (one can't break rules that don't exist), the employee was reinstated, only to be fired again four months later for a minor infraction. Roadrunner was particularly displeased with an informal customer satisfaction poll placed on the employee's personal website. " I threatened legal intervention which was what motivated them to realize the "error of their ways", notes the employee. " They showed me examples of posts that had common knowledge stuff contained within them, but they really didn't like the fact that I identified myself as one of their techs....The thing about that was, it didn't violate any written or unwritten rules that the company had or the out-source company had." With no written guidelines for behavior within newsgroups or message boards, can companies honestly expect their employees to know where the lines are drawn? Are the companies themselves even sure where the lines are drawn? Qwest also recently tightened the reigns on their technicians. Instead of being rewarded for going the extra mile to answer questions, they were scolded for "representing Qwest without authorization". With a bleak job market in the telecom sector, employees aren't willing to risk their livelihoods, no matter how noble the original intent. When Kirk Rafferty, CEO of Colorado-based Fairplay Communications, was recently interviewed by Newsfactor, he identified customer service as being the only areas in which small David ISP's could dominate Goliath competitors. That ideology appears to ring true with companies like Covad, Speakeasy, and Optimum On-line who all maintain sizeable and successful forum presences. But not all of the telcos and larger providers are clamping down on such activity. SBC recently announced they would be offering official support in several of our forums. The employees seem dedicated toward making such a relationship work, the customers are happy, and the company gets a PR boost. Does that sound like something to be afraid of? If you'd like to voice your opinion on BellSouth's decision, you can contact them via their website, which also lists a wide variety of corporate contacts. You can also participate in this thread in our BellSouth forum. Related:- DSLExtreme Responds to 404 Redirect Complaints
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 |  |   Dewi Premium join:2001-09-28 united kingd | Re: Insecure managers/directors of cust srvc orgs Would Broadband reports reveal the employees identity if it came to that?
It is a sad state of affairs. When I was figuring out if I could qualify to DSL, the techs here were the only ones who would help me out. Sad to see that go. | |
|  |   sometech
@216.90.x.x
| HEY... WHY DONT YOU COME FIRE ME!!!
I am a tech, admin, rep, pr, etc.. If you people are so anal retentive that you can't let your own techs do what they want (in their off-time I might add) then you need to get a life...
COME FIRE ME SWBELL.. or should I say, SW-SMELL>>> :-p | |
|  dyehard
join:2002-05-12 Phoenixville, PA | see your co. GO to the trash Well it looks like they wont help us in any newsgroups anymore the want to rade us the damn scrips they have | |
|   drjim Premium,MVM join:2000-06-13 Torrance, CA clubs:
edited
| Get a CLUE! These guys in "Management" need to read "The Cluetrain Manifesto" by Doc Searls, et al. They're cutting their own throats by disallowing their Tech Support to directly interact with the very people who are their business....THE CUSTOMER! drjim -- One man's Magic is another man's Engineering. [text was edited by author 2002-12-06 20:02:08] | |
|  |  ecarlson
join:2002-12-07 Reston, VA
| Re: Get a CLUE! said by drjim : These guys in "Management" need to read "The Cluetrain Manifesto" by Doc Searls, et al.
I agree. I read that book, and found it insightful. It should be required reading for the management of those companies. -- - Eric, »www.InvisibleRobot.com/ | |
|  lordfly
join:2000-10-12 Homestead, FL
·AT&T Southeast
edited
| Techs go undercover? So does this mean that we will see techs go underground. How about a P2P support system. Instead of trading files, trade ideas, thoughts and comments.
Techies and non-techies could write small snippets of quick-tips, post them into a P2P network and then a user could quickly do a search on his/her problem and get an answer.
Users could post questions in the same manner, with techies/non-techies during the search for known problems.
So with a non-centralized system, how would anyone know who posted what?
Just a thought. [text was edited by author 2002-12-06 20:15:16] | |
|  |   P2P RIAA
@mindspring.com | Re: Techs go undercover? That could affect sales of Tech-Help CD's and the RIAA would have to sue or hack someone! | |
|  |   hoboyle
@Dial1.Sea
| A poster wrote: How about a P2P support system. Instead of trading files, trade ideas, thoughts and comments.
We already have one. It's called Usenet. Anonymous sharing of ideas made possible by the letter G and the Googlegroups foundation, with additional assistance furnished by hotmail.com and yahoo.com.  -- * Helen * | |
|  |   standsolid
@adelphia.net
| here's why it won't work: we TRUST the techs on this board because they do work for BellSouth, they usually know their stuff. if it's all anonymous then you don't know when some n00b will come by and read 'type format c:' and actually do it. so sad, this news. the techs still can post just not as OFFICIAL techs. heh | |
|  |   LimboBoy
@attbi.com | Rent the movie `Brazil'. | |
|  gatzdon
join:2002-10-25 Lake Zurich, IL
| Makes It Easier to Blacklist The Crappy Companies Face it, it isn't very often that a company comes right out and says "We couldn't give two sh*** about the customer". We should all be sending thank you letters for saving us the time and trouble of finding out the hard way that they don't care about the customer. Any company that won't allow a tech to post in these forums, won't allow their call centers to tell you anything more than:
Tech: turn your modem off Tech: turn it back on Tech: did that fix the problem Poor Sucker: No, it still doesn't work. Tech: Darn, you must not have turned it off properly, let's try that again.
As long as I keep seeing Covad here and providing the customer service that I have received to date, I'll stick with them. -- Just because I am paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me! | |
|  |  fimbulvetr
join:2001-10-22 Sioux Falls, SD
| Re: Makes It Easier to Blacklist The Crappy Companies Hey man, I guess you must not be a tech.
I've asked people to reboot many times. They say they have, I get to thier comp, and run msinfo32, and it's been up for 4 days. Imagine that, has it really been four days, I swear it's only been 3 minutes?
Or how about the people who think that logging off and loggin back on is a reboot?
Don't dis the confirming reboot, it saves us ton's of time, and I've been doing this for 9 years. | |
|  Cyber2lz
join:2001-11-15 Odessa, FL
·Verizon FIOS
·RoadRunner Cable
| outsourcing kings This from a company that just last year outsourced their entire IT operations to EDS. I, for one, will be sorry to see the BSFA techs quit posting............at least under their previous names! This is just another example of the terrible state of telecom in this country. VOIP is coming sooner than anyone thinks!!!!! -- If you're not livin' on the edge, you're takin' up too much space ! | |
|  |  elite17
join:2002-12-02 Brighton, TN | Re: outsourcing kings
teleco's are running scared as you spoke check out SBC's stance on the matter of VoIP don't forget dialpad.com!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and how they screwed up by charging for VoIP | |
|   guycad$ In Search Of Free Speech Premium join:2002-05-02 Pompton Lakes, NJ
| PHB's and real life. You have to remember when it comes to (mis)management, you're always dealing with someone else's agenda. In particular, in large corporations, you typically deal with middle manager's to whom have been delegated some piddling authority but whom have no real say and do no real work. After all, they're "managers".
Such 'policy setters' are usually concerned with making themselves look essential to the company. The gauge of an excellent manager can often be taken by the risks they are willing to run. Risky actions which favor the customer are often avoided like the plague. Actions were the manager can point and say "I protected the company." are the forte of the small minded 'play it safe' manager. After all, it's hard to argue with actions which 'protect the company'.
The managers of call centers who are 'threatening' colleagues who help in the forums fear having their responsibilities reduced. Such managers are probably measured on how many calls they deal with etc. Because their metric is based upon the numbers of complaints they receive, they actually have a dis-incentive to support any action which benefits the company as a whole.
Finally, there is no easy way to measure how many customers get their answers and issues resovled from/in a user forum. This makes it difficult to for forum participation proponents within a company to garner support for their position. A truly savvy COO however, will understand that not everything that is important can be easily measured.
As far as liability issues are concerned, all of these companies have law firms on permanent retrainer. I say, let the lawyers risk having to do a little work. It'll be good for them and get them off their butts. This happens to be another group within a corporation which have a dis-incentive to potentially risky actions. Think about it for a moment. Corporate lawyers on retainer have already been paid. Do you really think they'll advocate any action where they may have to do work?
Just my opinion. YMMV. -- My Pictures.People who describe M$ software as 'mediocre' don't know the half of it.WinDoze Free 2003 | |
|  |  cfdingman
join:2001-12-19 Leeds, ME
| Re: PHB's and real life. Can't argue with the thrust of these observations but can't resist a clarifying comment about corporate lawyers. Typically the retainer doesn't cover any and all work, so an outside attorney would welcome a chance to work out policies that help a corporation balance its risks against the value of customer service through postings. However, neither the manager nor the in-house counsel at these companies are likely to want to incur the added legal expense of doing this, so the easy route for these naturally risk-averse folks is to say "no." It takes insightful leadership to tell them that's not an acceptable answer, and instead they need to fashion a genuine solution to the risks they've identified. The editorial on this site sounds the right note to encourage top management to understand that the stone wall strategy is not productive in the long run. | |
|  |  |   guycad$ In Search Of Free Speech Premium join:2002-05-02 Pompton Lakes, NJ
| Re: PHB's and real life. You make a good point. And yes, I know the 'retainer' doesn't cover any and all work. But given the rather obscene levels of retainers at the corps we're talking about, they damn well should! 
hehe - but you're also right in pointing out that that really doesn't change the natural tendency to be risk-averse anyway.
 -- My Pictures.People who describe M$ software as 'mediocre' don't know the half of it.WinDoze Free 2003 | |
|  |  moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21 Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by guycad$ :
The managers of call centers who are 'threatening' colleagues who help in the forums fear having their responsibilities reduced. Such managers are probably measured on how many calls they deal with etc. Because their metric is based upon the numbers of complaints they receive, they actually have a dis-incentive to support any action which benefits the company as a whole.
Just my opinion. YMMV. -- My Pictures.People who describe M$ software as 'mediocre' don't know the half of it.WinDoze Free 2003
I really would like to know if the call center managers are actually measured by their complaints. I have a feeling that complaints are blamed on the phone tech and not the call center manager. They are also not bothered by turnover.
I can imagine ISP's calling EDS:
ISP: "You guys handled 500 calls last Monday. Good job." EDS: "Thanks, we try." ISP: "It seems though you had 300 complaints from that day alone." EDS: "Hmmmm, must have been a rude tech, we'll get rid of him ASAP." ISP: "Cool, otherwise your call volume is great."
EDS talking to Call Center Manager (CCS):
EDS: "Call volume was o.k. but we got a lot of customer complaints." CCS: "Hmmmm, must be that one tech who posts on BBR. I'll fire him the next time he is 30 seconds late from a bathroom break." EDS: "O.k. Call HR and make sure you have the correct paperwork."
ISP to media:
ISP: "The level of customer service we provide is exceptional." media: "What about all the complaints being reported by your customers?" ISP: "These complaints are less than 1% of of our business. The vast majority of customers have no complaints."
The fact of the matter is that all businesses lie to the public concerning their customer satisfaction. Look at Comcast during the transition.
Truth is, companies care less and less about customer satisfaction and more about that bottom line. Instead of touting their own benefits, they shout about the competition's problems. How many people have seen how those cable companies went against DSS services with their negative ads. Direct TV has shown their good points and have mostly kept away from talking negative about the cable companies.
In one recent article of PC World, customer satisfaction of companies like Dell have gone down. Why? Companies spend less and less on customer service. They try to rely on their name. If they keep doing this their name will be mud soon. | |
|  |  |   guycad$ In Search Of Free Speech Premium join:2002-05-02 Pompton Lakes, NJ
| Re: PHB's and real life. Poor choice of words on my part. Having managed an internal call/tech support center, it's been my general observation that people call to complain about their problems. I was not referring to the number of complaints managers received about their departments.
"number of complaints they receive" was intended to mean "number of problem calls they field".
I hope this is a bit clearer. -- My Pictures.People who describe M$ software as 'mediocre' don't know the half of it.WinDoze Free 2003 | |
|   WhatToDo
@megapath.net | Here's how to fix this problem. Here's how to fix this problem, DROP BELL SOUTH . | |
|  |   superht1
join:2001-02-22 Kennesaw, GA
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: Here's how to fix this problem. I wish i could but they're glued to me like rubber on concrete. It is impossible!!! till death do we part due to bondage and commitment to remain together forever. Until i moved that is, which is not too far away from now. ah what a relief.  | |
|  |   rtestes
join:2000-10-22 Brandon, MS
| Remember they are a government formed monopoly, they own the wires and external hardware. You move to Earthlink and pay more to rent the same line you are on today. What is gained?
If you don't like what bellsouth does, complain to your Public Service commission or whatever state government organization controls their fees and etc. That is the place to get even with them. The right complaint to the right people will cause BS more problems than any complaining here or expecting management to serve the customer. | |
|  |  |  footballdude
join:2002-08-13 Imperial, MO | Re: Hope A-Tech doesn't follow..... Ameritech is SBC. SBC recently made a commitment to increase support on the forums. | |
|  |  DonLibesBad
join:1999-12-10 Potomac, MD
| a 2nd point to consider I agree - it's a no-brainer that the opportunity for techs to resolve problems through forums can be a wonderful complement to the traditional tech support.
I can't help thinking they are worried about a completely different thing - that users will get organized like what happened in Montgomery County, MD. Comcast is well aware (several Comcast employees have assured me of this) of how DSLR became the pivotal mechanism by which people learned about others' problems and the widespread extent of the problems and the existence of other people interested in solving the problem. A repeat of what happened in MCMD is the last thing an ISP wants but the reality is that the more problems there are at an ISP, the more likely that DSLR is the place where others will find out and organize and do something.
Thank you Justin! | |
|  |  InterDude
join:2002-01-28 | Re: a 2nd point to consider I agree and I am in Mtgmry Cnty MD.
There were a lot fo bumps and down time. Service has gotten better, but could still improve.
Keep sticking it to the man! | |
|   Count Hogula$ Notorious Dog Premium join:2002-06-19 Corona, CA
| Welcome to LawyerWorld This is about nothing more than damned lawyers screwing up yet another aspect of American society. Want to fix America...start by building a concentration camp for all the damn blood sucking lawyers. -- The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -Thomas Jefferson | |
|  |   RR Conductor 'Boarrrd Premium join:2002-04-02 Redwood Valley, CA
·Comcast
| Re: Welcome to LawyerWorld Want to fix America? Get rid of greed in men's hearts, that causes more pain and suffering than any other thing. -- MOVING BACK TO WEST COVINA, SO CAL SUMMER 2003!  | |
|  |  |   Count Hogula$ Notorious Dog Premium join:2002-06-19 Corona, CA
| Re: Welcome to LawyerWorld Braaaaaahhhhhhhhh ha ha ha ha........
Naw...a lawyer death camp would be enough to make the world a perfect place. The rest of us greedy meanies will do just fine. -- The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -Thomas Jefferson | |
|  |  |   purplejello
join:2001-08-23 Reno, NV clubs: | What street, if you don't mind my asking? My roomie is from Covina. | |
|  |  |  |   RR Conductor 'Boarrrd Premium join:2002-04-02 Redwood Valley, CA
·Comcast
| Re: Welcome to LawyerWorld Well, I was raised on N. Neil St., off of Puente Ave. by Covina High School(I graduated from there in 1990), but I will be living in one of the apartments complexes around Azusa and Lark Ellen in West Covina. Where in Covina is your roomie from? -- MOVING BACK TO WEST COVINA, SO CAL SUMMER 2003!  | |
|  |  |  |  |   lagnaf1 Always Check Your Six
join:2001-04-06 Osceola, AR | Re: Welcome to LawyerWorld
Quick note. She is from your mother's generation, but my wife grew up in Covina and Azuza. She graduated in 1973.
Mike -- Everything in excess!! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   RR Conductor 'Boarrrd Premium join:2002-04-02 Redwood Valley, CA | Re: Welcome to LawyerWorld She'd be younger than my parents, they graduated HS in 1952. -- MOVING BACK TO WEST COVINA, SO CAL SUMMER 2003!  | |
|  claudeo
join:2000-02-23 Redmond, WA
| Let top management know
Whining won't help. What you need to do is let top management (not the middle managers who are trying to cover their behind) know how you feel about this. There are lots of pointers on the web on how to locate those people and their mailing or email address. A few suggested points: - Tell them that given the choice between two vendors, you are choosing the other because the other vendor lets its people proactively help customers - Tell them that the articulate response they saw to a question on an internet forum is what made you decide to choose that company over its competitors - Ask them if the fact that they won't allow their people to participate in internet forum is because they can't convey their value proposition their own people. And if so, why should potential customers believe the official company propaganda? - Remind them that most business decisions are not rational, but are based on how well one thinks they can trust the other party. A company that has enough confidence in its people to let them help customers directly inspires much more trust than one that hides information behind bland official publications, layers of bureaucratic voice menus and canned help desk scripts.
As for me, my ISP is well represented here and I have no complaint. | |
|  |  |  dreverett
join:2001-09-22 El Cajon, CA
| Re: Kudos so far to SBC
Amen- I received not only better, but much faster help online via the SBC Techs here than on the phone. It's made my one problem I've encountered go away quickly.
He did what a 2 hour phone call could not, and identified my line problem so I could intelligently talk to the repair center and tell them where to start.
SBC Management- DON'T EVER TAKE AWAY ONLINE SUPPORT FROM YOUR TECHS. IT IS A GREAT PLUS TO THE SERVICE YOU PROVIDE. | |
|  jomama
join:2002-11-21
·Mediacom
| I'm livin' it Hey this hits pretty close to home. It's bad enough to get fired for going the extra mile, but when they start throwing people out for trying to change the system internally all is lost. I am now one of the unhappy 9% that's looking for work and although it didn't say it specifically in my termination paperwork, I'm sure it had a lot to do with getting in managements' faces about providing the hardware, training, and marketing to repair a lot of the company's shortcomings. It also gave them the chance to eliminate some overhead as I had steadfastly refused to get "promoted" to a salaried position so my constant overtime due to bad engineering wouldn't be compensated for. | |
|  supertbone
join:2002-04-04 Lancaster, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
| Been there done that I have worked in call center's for 2 ISP's, in a 3rd party MSN call center in SLC and for Charter's NW Regional Center in Vancouver, WA. At MSN we were told not to help out at all. They don't want widespread problems and their details to be common knowledge. On the other coin, the official word at Charter was not too help, but managers turned a blind eye. I saw quite a few co-workers on dslreports at work at their desks. I guess in the PHB's mind knowledge is dangerous. | |
|   Krispy Premium,VIP join:2001-12-11 the stix
| Not all ISPs There's a few of ISP employee's that haven't been fired yet!
I think it's absurd that ISP management neglects the opportunity they have here, it does take a special kinda person to be able to post publicly but the feedback gained is invaluable. | |
|  |   guycad$ In Search Of Free Speech Premium join:2002-05-02 Pompton Lakes, NJ
| Re: Not all ISPs Dearest Lippy,
I love coming across your posts. Your clear, concise and practical thinking is always a refreshing thing to read. 
Keep up the terrific work!  | |
|   Eat Me
join:2002-09-25 Sussex, NJ clubs:
·ProLog
| Look at this forum and you will see why! Just look at what some of this forum has degenerated into and you will see why they are staying clear. Not flaming the forum really, it's just that there are a few kiddies here who spoil the fun for the rest of us. Scanning this board lately you see alot of cursing, swearing, fighting and even engaging in questionable activities (posting peoples' names and addresses). Mods are another case entirely, as I have seen a case of one of them bullying users and taking sides on issues.
Furthermore, alot of the focus of DSLR has shifted away from broadband, and has focused on the latest news about the RIAA, MPAA and file sharing. When I initially came to this site, I came here to look for comparisons on broadband (which were very good I might add). The news bits started to seem interesting, when they talked about industry development of broadband. But then the RIAA stories began popping up all over. Pretty soon they began to dominate the news. While I do not like what the RIAA is doing, I still feel that the place to discuss anti RIAA issues is not a forum about broadband internet, especially a forum in which ISP employees frequent. Can you imagine the kind of lawsuit that Rosen can pull together against an ISP if even one employee on this forum posted in support of file sharing? I know it may sound ridiculous but that's the way they are.
Just my $0.02. I just hope the mods don't delete this post. The truth hurts!
P.S. I know I have engaged in some of the fights and flames and cursing myself (with stars to block out the real words). I wasn't justifying my actions. I was merely providing an explanation. | |
|  |   RadioDoc Sortofadog Premium,ExMod 2000-03 join:2000-05-11 Chicago, IL
·AT&T Midwest
| Re: Look at this forum and you will see why! If you feel that there is something wrong which needs looking at in any forum, feel free to use that "Hey Mods" link and flag it. There are almost 70 moderators. If one is running rampant the others need to know.
As for your RIAA comment...well, it's a huge issue involving camel's noses and tents, etc.
But back to the topic at hand: Having started with zero "inside" participation two years ago all the way to actual official SBC participation in my forum (Ameritech) I've seen the entire gamut. When there are techs in the forum, the complaints, flaming, and general pissing and moaning significantly drops, and the users (read: customers) help each other with assistance from the insiders. This is he best possible scenario for an enlightened ISP. Informed customers, who understand what is going on, are less likely to call in and cost tech support $$$ when they know it's just a little 10 minute glitch. One read in our forums, and you're up to date.
There have been well over a half million people register at this site. How many of those are still any particular ISPs customer because of what they learned here? And then there are all the other Broadband sites, plus the newsgroups.
The customers are out of the barn...the best way to keep them on the ISP farm is to make them feel wanted. A good way to do that is to keep them engaged with the company. How stupid can these head-in-the-sand managers be? -- It's not about having what you want, it's about wanting what you have. | |
|  |  |  |   RenderXP Disturbed
join:2001-02-15 Georgetown, KY
| Please Would everyone posting to this news topic, take a minute to go to the bellsouth forum and read some posts there. Then you may gain some insight as to what we are losing in that forum. Not only will be losing the greatest source of troubleshooting and problem solving that there is for bellsouth subscribers. But also some friends. -- -Occasionally glancing up thru the rain , an watching for pigs on the wing- | |
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